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You can't use withdrawal as an option: What would you do to win in Iraq?

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trumad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 02:54 PM
Original message
You can't use withdrawal as an option: What would you do to win in Iraq?
Edited on Fri Aug-19-05 02:54 PM by trumad
Hypothetically speaking.... If leaving Iraq within the next year was not an option, then what steps would you take to make sure that Iraq was not left in the hands of Islamofacists?
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. Socratic...I like it.
You should post it over at FR. Seriously, well phrased.
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mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
2. I would start using the troops to throw ticker tape parades.
Seriously, every day that they stand on street corners with guns is just asking for trouble. Why not try to do something fun?
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
30. What would you do to win in Iraq? The same as we did to win Viet Nam...
We aren't winning the war in Iraq, The commanders have recently said they were experienicing twice as many insurgents and suicide bomb attacks compared to last year and that they needed more US.troops to get the job done. Then general who stated this was demoted and relieved of his command.
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TK421 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
3. Since withdrawal is not an option, has the rhythm method been considered?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
4. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
King Coal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
5. Get the Iraqi women involved and hope for the best.
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Not Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
6. First get rid of CIC, then
Call allies/UN...tell them we need their help more than ever.
Get UN into peacekeeping, use US troops for rebuilding.
Let Iraq determine the future it wants for itself.
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geckosfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
7. Bring in multi-national peace keepers via UN. Get world wide
help and funding and have some UN oversight.

If the UN is not able or capable then a consortia of middle eastern nations who understand cultural heritage and have some vested interest - even if it includes Iran.

Yes, we broke it and now we are asking for help. So what?
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HootieMcBoob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
8. I think Wes Clark has the best plan
What Do We Do Now?

Wes Clark believes we need to clearly define our mission in Iraq by deciding what constitutes success. Our mission is to create a secure, stable Iraq with a representative government. Only this will make America more secure and enable our troops to come home. Success means that Iraq is strong enough to sustain itself without outside forces but is no longer a threat to its neighbors; that representative government has taken root so Iraq can be a model for democratic hope in the Middle East; and that Iraqi society and the Iraqi economy are healthy enough so that Al Qaeda cannot recruit there.

Wes Clark's strategy for Iraq is guided by the following principles:

1. End the American monopoly. From the beginning, the Administration has insisted on exclusive control of the Iraqi reconstruction and occupation. This has cost us the financial and military support of other nations and made America a bigger target for terrorists. Ending the American monopoly will change the way this enterprise is viewed -- in Iraq and throughout the world.
* Re-incorporate our allies. Fixing the Administration's missteps will require skilled diplomacy at the highest levels. Wes Clark recommends calling a summit of leaders from Europe, the United Nations, Japan and the Arab world to launch a new, internationalized effort in Iraq. They will be more willing to help if America works with them on issues they care about: climate change, the International Criminal Court and the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty.
* Transform the military operation into a NATO operation. General Abizaid, commander of US forces in the Middle East, would remain in charge of the operation, but he would report to the NATO Council, as General Clark did as commander of NATO forces in Kosovo. With NATO support and U.N. endorsement, we can also expect some Arab countries to step in. Their presence would prove that this is not an American occupation, but an international and regional effort to stabilize Iraq.
2. Adjust the force mix. The Bush Administration has failed to formulate an effective tactical plan. No such plan will be viable without substantial contributions from military leaders on the ground. Still, Wes Clark would approach the problem as follows:
* Consider adding troops. Wes Clark believes we should look at whether adding forces will help the effort in Iraq. He would not measure success in Iraq by a reduction in troops or failure by an increase. It's more important to do the job right so all the troops can come home sooner.
* Adapt to guerilla war. One mistake in Vietnam was trying to use conventional forces to fight an unconventional war. The more unarmored humvees we have, the greater our vulnerability to roadside bombs. We have suffered more losses in routine patrolling and transit than in active counter-insurgency efforts. We need to ensure the right mix of forces to fight a classic guerrilla war. That means more Special Forces and other light forces better suited for counter-insurgency.
* Better use of intelligence resources. To protect our soldiers we must do all we can to find out who's attacking our soldiers. That means better intelligence work and improved relations with the civilian population. Yet intelligence specialists and people who can speak to Iraqis in their own language are scarce. We need to take the linguists and intelligence specialists now involved in the search for WMDs and assign them to our military counter-insurgency efforts. International inspectors are willing and able to take over this mission. We must also augment our intelligence capability with new technologies and better recruitment in the Arab-American community.
* Train Iraqi security forces, freeing up U.S. troops. We need to empower Iraqis to provide routine security so American soldiers can focus on urgent tasks like counter-insurgency. Wes Clark would implement a comprehensive two-tier plan: train police first, then military.
o Summon the old Iraqi army for duty at the local level. We need more Iraqi paramilitary units and police at the local level. General Clark will use thorough background checks, generous pay rates, and real political control for Iraqis -- as well as appealing to Iraqis' sense of nationality -- to put Iraqis in charge of basic security, freeing up US soldiers to focus on our most urgent tasks, including counter-insurgency.
o Reconstitute the Iraqi Army so that it eventually can do the work the occupation force now does - guarding Iraqi borders, keeping order, and fighting insurgents. It will take considerable time to have an Iraqi Army trained enough and integrated enough to do the job.
* Engage neighbors for better border security. Iraq is now a magnet for every jihadist in the Middle East. Closing the borders requires cooperation from the countries bordering Iraq. But currently, Syria and Iran don't want us to succeed because they fear they are next on our invasion list. Wes Clark recommends engaging Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia with both carrots and sticks. We have serious issues with each of these countries, but closing those borders is the most urgent priority right now. We must show Iraq's neighbors that cooperation with us is in their interest and will help their region.
* Secure ammunition. Today, hundreds of thousands of tons of ammunition from Saddam's arsenal have yet to be secured, and thousands of shoulder-fired missiles remain at large. Terrorists have used these stockpiles to attack our forces. We should destroy that ammunition immediately or else secure it with surveillance technology and troops from other countries willing to come to Iraq.
3. Promote information exchange to advance civil society. To encourage the growth of civic organizations, media, neighborhood groups -- and promote reconstruction -- we should open the West to Iraq for exchange programs so that Iraqis who have been isolated for years can see the what the rest of the world does with its economy, schools, health care, media and government.

Preventing Foreign Misadventures Going Forward

* Promote security through multilateralism. No nation will ever have veto power over our security. But turning our back on our allies makes it harder to protect ourselves and our interests. Despite our overwhelming military, economic and political strength, we cannot pursue Arab-Israeli peace, support reconstruction of Iraq and Afghanistan, deal with the challenges of North Korea, track down Osama bin Laden, fight the global war against terrorism, face the problem of Iran, and return to prosperity in this country, unless we have allies to help us.
* Modernize international institutions to combat new threats. Wes Clark recommends pursuing a new Atlantic Charter to repair and modernize our security partnership with Europe. The Charter that will define the threats we face in common and demand action from our allies to meet them while offering a promise to act together.
* Create a new agency for international assistance. Wes Clark believes America should lead the world in addressing the causes of human misery by attacking the problems of poverty, disease, and ethnic conflict with the same energy and skill we have brought to the challenge of warfare. A new agency would combine the existing development efforts of our government with a real budget for research and development, planning and the ability to draw on the new national Civilian Reserves that Wes Clark proposed in his campaign last October. These efforts will reduce the anger and alienation that gives rise to terrorism, and win us more friends and partners around the world. It will be far easier to ask gain international support for our concerns when other countries see us helping them on theirs.

http://securingamerica.com/issues/iraqplan
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geckosfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Yeah. What he ^ said,,,,, nt
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. If I'm the leader of another country...
and the U.S. were to ask for me to send troops to get shot at in a new "internationalized effort" in Iraq, what do you think my response would be?

(Hint: It's two words and the second word is "off".)

Folks like Clark and Kerry are dreaming if they think can get the rest of the world to try to clean up the mess we made in Iraq.
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HootieMcBoob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. It's in the international communities interest that it get cleaned up
and it's not going to get cleaned up as long as it has "made in usa" stamped on it. Clark says that in order to get the international community to get involved the US has to start taking seriously the things that they consider important. You know for a fact that that is not going to get done with Bush or any other Republican at the helm. Clark has a history of working with these countries as NATO commander he's a skilled diplomat. If anybody can accomplish it he's the one.

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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. They're definitely no danger to their neighbors now or i should say
Edited on Fri Aug-19-05 04:30 PM by shadowknows69
still. we have to get out. make sure they're fed through international agencies and give them all the tech help the private sector can but the Iraqi's have been taken back to square one in their nation's development and the tribes are going to fight it out for the eventual alpha male (or gods willing female) to step up and lead them to something better, but it will never be made any quikcer by having US troops in the mix. this will happen whether we are there or not. i'd prefer we don't be.
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HootieMcBoob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. exactly
which is why it has to be internationalized begining with getting rid of all of the american contractors. there are plenty of iraqis who could and should be re-building their own country, and we should foot a big part of the bill. right now all you have are a bunch of U.S. war profiteers, beginning with haliburton, and don't think that the international community and especially the iraqis don't know it. this is just a way for bush and his friends to do all the looting of the U.S. treasury that they want.
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. Say I'm a German.
Why is it in my interest to send my brother to get shot at in Iraq?
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. isn't
wouldn't blame you if you didn't. i think the iraqis would welcome an international human rights effort that wasn't tainted by the military. i realize they'll need security but hey. there will be all those private mercs out of work. no one that volunteered for an army in their country should spill one more drop of blood in this mess.
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maxsolomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
10. Partition
It wouldn't be "Iraq" you were leaving in the hands of the Islamofascists, just the Shiite third. And if its not called "Iraq", problem solved. The Sunnis would probably go back in the hands of a reorganized Baath party, and the Kurds will have their own homeland.

Its inevitable. Why not embrace it?
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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
11. Jail corporate profiteers and mercenaries...
...and really start rebuilding.
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Al-CIAda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
12. Just let the Christofascists run it?
Nah...Hey, maybe find and let a secular strong man keep the fanatics at bay...someone who has no connection to 9-11,has no WMDs, and no connection to Al-CIAda, or the CIA for that matter.
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DinahMoeHum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
13. Get rid of Halliburton, Bechtel and the other contractors, for starters. .
and blacklist them from future business in Iraq.

Give the Iraqis back their jobs. They're not dumb peasants, they're well educated, and they can do the work themselves. In no time flat, they will once again have electricity, clean water, etc.

:shrug:
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Al-CIAda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. yes, the correct answer, but the criminal war profiteers in the WH
will be cut out.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
14. Win?
Define winning.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
16. Win the old-fashioned way: DECLARE VICTORY!
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #16
31. or pull a Nixon; Withdrawl with peace with honor - Bush hasn't a clue!
Stay until the job is done? 5-10-50,000 troops killed? no limit to secure oil preserves?
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cmd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
17. Turn it over to the UN
and send Bush the bills.
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
19. What constitutes a "win" in Iraq?
Edited on Fri Aug-19-05 03:17 PM by Telly Savalas
Edit: oops sorry to be redundant with an earlier post, but it's a critical question that never seems to get answered.
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hnsez Donating Member (430 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Oil - this mirror cover explains
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
22. Simple: for each iraqi trained, bring home soldier.
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Mr.Green93 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
23. Begin Peace Talks with Islam
Bring the leaders of Islam to the Peace Table.
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
25. Good questions. Many of the answers are spot-on. How about ...
... assembling a summary of the answers and repost.

We could then submit suggested edits and move the resultant document towards being a "DU Manifesto for Restoring Iraq" that you could request Skinner post on the DU Homepage.

We could then distribute it to Raw Story, Huffington Post, Atrios, dKos and elsewhere for further comment and broader distribution -- as in a printed copy that could be delivered to every member of Congress when they return from recess.

Thank you.


Peace.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
27. Wait until they throw us out of their country.
Fortunately, withdrawal IS an option and one gathering popularity. Soon, it will become an imperative.
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