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Who's more pro-American? Karl Marx or George W Bush?

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billbuckhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 10:06 PM
Original message
Poll question: Who's more pro-American? Karl Marx or George W Bush?
Edited on Fri Aug-19-05 10:56 PM by billbuckhead
Here's some Karl Marx commentary on the events of the American civil war on October 12, 1862. There's plenty of good things that Marx says about America in his various writings. Marx's blow by blow commentary about the US civilwar is very insightful and far easier to read than his economics. These writings give a new view about his mind and his optimism about America. Contrast this to our present fuhrer.

<http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1862/10/12.htm>
Comments on the North American Events

Source: MECW Volume 19, p. 248;
Written: on October 7, 1862;
First published: in Die Presse, October 12, 1862.

The short campaign in Maryland has decided the fate of the American Civil War, however much the fortune of war may still vacillate between the opposing parties for a shorter or longer time. As we have already stated in this newspaper, the fight for the possession of the border slave states is a fight for the domination over the Union, and the Confederacy has been defeated in this fight, which it started under extremely favourable circumstances that are not likely ever to occur again.

Maryland was rightly considered the head and Kentucky the arm of the slaveholders’ party in the border states. Maryland’s capital, Baltimore, has been kept “loyal” up to now only by martial law. It was a dogma not only in the South but also in the North that the arrival of the Confederates in Maryland would be the signal for a popular rising en masse against “Lincoln’s satellites”. Here it was not only a question of a military success but also of a moral demonstration which was expected to electrify the Southern elements in all the border states and to draw them forcefully into the vortex.

With Maryland Washington would fall, Philadelphia would be menaced and New York would no longer be safe. The invasion of Kentucky, the most important of the border states owing to the size of its population, its situation and its economic resources, which took place simultaneously, was, considered in isolation, merely a diversion. But supported by decisive success in Maryland, it could have crushed the Union party in Tennessee, outflanked Missouri, protected Arkansas and Texas, threatened New Orleans, and above all shifted the theatre of war to Ohio, the central state of the North, whose possession spells the subjugation of the North just as the possession of Georgia spells that of the South. A Confederate army in Ohio would cut off the West of the Northern states from the East and fight the enemy from his own centre. After the fiasco of the rebels’ main army in Maryland, the invasion of Kentucky which was not pressing ahead with sufficient drive and was nowhere supported by popular sympathy, was reduced to an insignificant guerilla attack. Even the occupation of Louisville would now only unite the “Great West”, the legions from Iowa, Illinois, Indiana and Ohio, so that they would form an “avalanche” similar to that which crashed down on the South during the first glorious Kentucky campaign.

The Maryland campaign has thus proved that the waves of secession lack the power to roll over the Potomac and reach the Ohio. The South has been reduced to the defensive, but offensive operations were its only chance of success. Deprived of the border states and hemmed in by the Mississippi in the west and the Atlantic in the east, the South has conquered nothing — but a graveyard.
---------snip------------------------
Here's Marx with excellent reasoning, justifying to the world that the Confederacy had already lost the war.
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KingFlorez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. This is an insane question
Edited on Fri Aug-19-05 10:08 PM by KingFlorez
That's how I voted, because it's obvious that Bush isn't patriotic
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durutti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
2. Interestingly, lots of those articles were ghostwritten by Engels.
Everyone should read Francis Wheen's wonderful biography Karl Marx: A Life.
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
3. i don't know what's more insane
the question itself, or the results so far
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billbuckhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Dontcha think maybe Karl Marx was a lot different than he's been portrayed
The way he picks apart the rebel sides fortunes in the fighting of the war is remarkable. Marx helped recruit eurpeans to fight for the union side and agitated to keep the Euro governments out of the war. A lot of the hate against Marx in America is his role in beating the Confederates evil rebellion.
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. no a lot of the hate against marx stems from the fact his government
ideals were the basis for some of history's greatest monsters like Stalin, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Minh, Lenin, and Castro.
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billbuckhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Stalin is to Marx as Bush is to Jefferson and Lincoln.
Published on Sunday, July 17, 2005 by the Observer/UK
Why Marx is Man of the Moment
He had globalization sussed 150 years ago
by Francis Wheen

------------------snip-----------------
The bourgeoisie has not died. But nor has Marx: his errors or unfulfilled prophecies about
capitalism are eclipsed and transcended by the piercing accuracy with which he revealed the nature of the beast. 'Constant revolutionizing of production, uninterrupted disturbance of all social conditions, everlasting uncertainty and agitation distinguish the bourgeois epoch from all earlier ones,' he wrote in The Communist Manifesto.

Until quite recently most people in this country seemed to stay in the same job or institution throughout their working lives - but who does so now? As Marx put it: 'All that is solid melts into air.'

In his other great masterpiece, Das Kapital, he showed how all that is truly human becomes congealed into inanimate objects - commodities - which then acquire tremendous power and vigor, tyrannizing the people who produce them.

The result of this week's BBC poll suggests that Marx's portrayal of the forces that govern our lives - and of the instability, alienation and exploitation they produce - still resonates, and can still bring the world into focus. Far from being buried under the rubble of the Berlin Wall, he may only now be emerging in his true significance. For all the anguished, uncomprehending howls from the right-wing press, Karl Marx could yet become the most influential thinker of the 21st century.
-------snip-----------------------
<http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0717-28.htm>
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Stalin nonetheless was a Marxist-Leninist
and Marx's theories are the political motivation of the aforementioned hideous monsters and why people hate him. Not his opposition to the confederacy.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. And Caligula was a protector of the Republic...
:sarcasm:

Are you serious? Stalin was pretty much a fascist who posed as a Marxist-Leninist. Is a wolf in sheep's clothing a sheep? Oh, I see.

Actually, Stalin took over Russia and killed anyone who seemed to be more loyal toward Lenin's ideals than him.

By the way, comparing Stalinist Russia, or any authoritarian regime to post revolution-Cuba is ridiculous and laughable. Read up.
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. Marxism is a failed ideology, though I am not sure why
Be it China, USSR, or Cuba, it has not been successful. Closest thing that ever had some success were communes, the best of those are in Israel which I find ironic in many respects.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Not true at all
Look at El Salvador, where the Marxist revolution produced changes and reforms. People are no longer slaves, they own most of the land that they work on (what a concept!); even though you can see sweatshops and the occasional corporate-controlled farm, things there are much better for the people (FMLN didn't completely win control of the country, hence incomplete reforms).

Look at Cuba, where health care, education, housing and other institutions are second to none. Even with a 50 year US sanction, the Cuban people provide for themselves. There is almost no inequity. There is freedom of religion, speech, political views; Cuba's political system represents the people better than ours (it costs NO money to run for public office, no political party can hold office - not even the Communist Party, etc...).

Look at Kerala, the communist state in India. It is markedly better than almost every other part of the same country, with stats from female-male percentage to literacy rates way ahead of the non-socialist states.

Many countries in Europe are as close to socialism as possible without being completely non-capitalist.

Perhaps the reason we don't see as many success stories as these is because the US has killed off any left-wing governments when it desired.
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Bin Ladden is religious....
Hello from Germany,

and Jesus's theories are the political and theological motivation of the aforementioned...

Stalin has created a somehow religious catechism, labelled as "Marxism-Leninism", which was a poor and easy to learn language - just as religion - to coordinate power within the sovjet union. Stalin had more in common with catholicism than with Marxism.

Just study the Communist Party in Stalin's Soviet Union, then study the catholic church and then study Marx...

Dirk

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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Karl was fairly pro-American.
He even moved his internationale to New York for a while.
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Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 10:48 PM
Response to Original message
6. Incite-ful or insightful?
Words matter, spelling matters.

Marx is really, really dead. I'll worry about the current crop of assholes.
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
10. It's frustrating....
Hello from Germany,

I'm really depressed now. Just 113 years ago, Engels did post the following at Democratic Underground.

There is no place yet in America for a third party, I believe. The divergence of interests even in the same class group is so great in that tremendous area that wholly different groups and interests are represented in each of the two big parties, depending on the locality, and almost each particular section of the possessing class has its representatives in each of the two parties to a very large degree, though today big industry forms the core of the Republicans on the whole, just as the big landowners of the South form that of the Democrats. The apparent haphazardness of this jumbling together is what provides the splendid soil for the corruption and the plundering of the government that flourish there so beautifully. Only when the land — the public lands — is completely in the hands of the speculators, and settlement on the land thus becomes more and more difficult or falls prey to gouging — only then, I think, will the time come, with peaceful development, for a third party. Land is the basis of speculation, and the American speculative mania and speculative opportunity are the chief levers that hold the native-born worker in bondage to the bourgeoisie. Only when there is a generation of native-born workers that cannot expect anything from speculation any more will we have a solid foothold in America. But, of course, who can count on peaceful development in America! There are economic jumps over there, like the political ones in France — to be sure, they produce the same momentary retrogressions.


Just search in the archives. If you don't find it there, try this:
Marx-Engels Correspondence 1892
Engels to Sorge
Source: Science and Society Volume II, Number 3, 1938;
Translated and Edited: by Leonard E. Mins.
London, January 6, 1892.

Dirk
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the_spectator Donating Member (932 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
13. That's a great site by the way -
Edited on Fri Aug-19-05 11:37 PM by the_spectator
http://marxists.org

They have SO many important texts from all perspectives and times related to Marxisim, that they're even a good resource for capitalist works.

It makes it easy to kill a few hours reading up on artcane things like Trotsky's commentary on 1920s Britian, the Shachtmanite disputes, etc. etc.
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WeHoldTheseTruths Donating Member (143 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
14. Interesting you should mention Marx.
Was just reading about him the other day.

How Lord Palmerston Used His Karl Marx


The chief source of the problem caused by Marxism, on that account, is that most European economists, like the famous Karl Marx, were utterly duped into childish blind faith in the "scientific verity" of the Anglo-Dutch Liberal dogma, as set forth at the British East India Company's Haileybury School. While Marx did, in fact, wander pretty much all over the lot on the subject of economics, prior to the time he was taken in hand at the British Library by the British intelligence service's Urquhart, and Marx's reading list arranged accordingly, his views as set forth in Volume I of his _Capital_ do represent an attempt to set forth a systematic representation of the core of the combined essentials of sundry Venetian, Physiocratic, British, and other reductionists' (e.g., empiricists') contributions to the hot pot of British doctrines on the subject of political-economy.

The later two-plus volumes of that work, produced by editor Frederick Engels, are a subject in themselves. which need not burden our detailed attention here. The essential thing about such later matters is, that under the controlling influence of Britain's Frederick Engels, Marx was repeatedly steered away from the American System of political-economy, first in an attack, foisted by Engels, against Friedrich List, and, later, again by Engels, against the world's leading economist of that time, Henry C. Carey, and, broadly, against the work of U.S. Treasury Secretary Alexander Hamilton. With aid of Engels' ideological sheep-herding of Marx in that way, Marx's own product was never anything but an alternate brand-name variety of the British system. Karl Marx never had any comprehension of real modern physical science or economics outside the bounds of what the Marxists had been duped into insisting-often, even mindlessly chanting-were the only scientific economics prior to the work of Marx himself, the philosophical pig-sty often identified as the empiricist "Enlightenment." Usually, self-styled "Marxists" simply denied the existence of anything in the world outside the bounds of their rather cultish selection of canonically certifiable readings. Marx's own pitiable ignorance of physical science, and also of the pre-history and history of the American System in particular, are typical of this enormous ration of scientific illiteracy which dominates the tradition of Marx and of most of his self-styled followers to the present day.<8>

Much can be said about Marx's background. A few of the most relevant highlights are sufficient for our purposes here.<9>

The most essential thing, at the beginning, was that Marx was born into a circle, in this case, one centered on the ancient Roman capital known today as Trier, in which the leaders of the community had been, in the relevant time, sympathizers of the American Revolution, as typified by the leading intellectual figure of that time, who happened to be Marx's most important teacher, and an authority on the celebrated order of the Brothers of the Common Life, Hugo Wyttenbach, at the Gymnasium from which Marx matriculated.

However, young Karl Marx fell, with many of his demoralized generation, into the effects of a moral decadence of his times, as typified by the such effects as the combined aftermath of the French Terror, the Napoleonic Wars, the 1815 Congress of Vienna, Metternich's fascist-like decrees, and the vile G.W.F. Hegel's influence as a correspondent and prot?g? of Prince Metternich. In fact, in all his published works, and I have been obliged to deal with most of them in past times, Karl Marx, while sometimes brilliant within the bounds of that fallacy of composition which is identified by his literary output and known personal associations, never took into account any scientifically competent source, but working as a credulous ideologue, confined his attention to preferred sources which amounted to steeping himself in the methodological ideology of the Anglo-Dutch Liberal Enlightenment of the followers of Venice's Paolo Sarpi.

When his father, Heinrich, pulled young Karl Marx out of university at Bonn, for reason of Marx's corrupt personal life there, Marx was sent to Berlin, to study law under the infamous, right-wing ideologue Savigny, the Savigny who was the accomplice, in the maladministration of that university, of the wretched designer of the future fascist state, Hegel. There, Marx was drawn into a left-Hegelian British intelligence operation known as "Young Germany," a branch of the Lord Palmerston-controlled Mazzini's Young Europe association of that time. Despite friendly personal warnings to him by Heinrich Heine about the reality of the inside of the Young Europe organization, Marx ended up in London, where he remained, in fact, an asset of Lord Palmerston until Palmerston's death, and directly a sub-agent, for Palmerston, of the Giuseppe Mazzini who personally, publicly appointed Marx to head up what became known as the First International.<10>

A lot of different things may be said about Marxism, things which differ according to the hands into which that legacy happened to fall at sundry places and times; but, on the theoretical side, Marxian economics and its political implications are essentially, in all axiomatic features, a subsumed offshoot, and rationalization of the definitions, axioms, and postulates of the mechanistic, Anglo-Dutch Liberal system. *Thus, the popular rant which seeks to locate modern history between the bookends of Adam Smith and Marx, is, under today's world conditions, pretty much one giant hoax of no presently redeeming virtues for current practice, especially under present world-crisis conditions.*

On the subject of the theory of prices, Marx's mechanistic notion of economic value is either as bad, or sometimes worse, than the putative alternatives. The significance of Marx's work and influence, is historic: that unless one understands both Marxian economics' influence, and that of the other version of the same British system which Marx expressed, in depth, as I ploughed in those fields during nearly a quarter-century, and, one also knows the American System of political-economy, which is contrary to them both, one has very poor comprehension of the processes which prepared the way for what is actually happening to the world at large today.

Marx became notable for the life of the late Nineteenth and Twentieth Centuries, because of his association, chiefly from a distance, with the so-called Second (socialist) International. His work on economics continued to be known chiefly through the role of the Engels who was close to the British Empire's left-wing intelligence circles, which deployed the notorious gun-runner and organizer of other people's revolutions, Parvus, the Engels who had functioned as the editor of the posthumously published works of Marx on economics.

However, it would be a grave mistake to think of the mass-based forms of the socialist movement as a product of "Marxism" as such. As we can see from the case of the U.S.A. during the 1930s, and again during the period of what came to be called "McCarthyism," the socialist movement repeatedly gained justified importance during periods of so-called "right-wing reaction." Typical is

<1> the way in which President Franklin Roosevelt kept both his connections to, and distance from, the socialist parties of the U.S. 1930s through such arrangements as those provided by CIO leader John L. Lewis, and in

<2> the indispensable role of the socialists, who had the courage to resist, during the resistance against the wave of so-called "McCarthyism" during the late 1940s and early 1950s.

In general, the principal, more durable importance of socialist movements in modern European history, has been that, together with other movements, they have shared a tendency to promote that principle of the general welfare which was established as a policy of modern governments with Louis XI's France and Henry VII's England, as also by the 1648 Treaty of Westphalia. This is an aspect of the socialist movements contrary to the Hobbesian, "class conflict" doctrine of history, which Marx shares with Henry A. Kissinger,<11> that in opposition to the principle of the general welfare as affirmed in the 1648 Treaty of Westphalia. Inevitably, the defense of the principle of the general welfare was usually centered on the rights of the laborer and his or her family. When forces behind governments tended toward repressive practices against that relevant section of the population, the conditions for the role of labor and related social-political movements existed as a needed part of the instruments for defense of the universal natural-law principle of the general welfare on which all civilized forms of modern life depend.

To a certain degree, the resistance against the 1964-1972 U.S. Indo-China war drew more upon the sons and daughters of former socialists than on any nominally Marxist political party organization. This was lawful. Unfortunately, by the early 1960s, the Congress for Cultural Freedom had done its evil work on the minds of the Baby-Boomer generation, in the U.S.A. as in western Europe and beyond. Despite the degeneracy of the former left-wing groups during that time, the resistance against a foolish war illustrated a principle. History will tend to seize processes available to it, to deal with a threat to a decent order of things, and it has often selected movements more because they are available, than because they are actually qualified for service to the mission into which they are drawn.

It was because of the sometimes important part which those movements played in late Nineteenth and Twentieth-Century history in various parts of the world, that it was necessary for governments and others to recognize the sometimes important part these movements contributed, without oneself being drawn into the regrettable accumulation of anti-scientific ideological baggage which the sundry parts of those movements carried with them. In the end, the useful, sometimes heroic mission those movements had performed, passed, and only the decaying ideological baggage remained. Their tired bodies sagged along the line of march, but the eyes of the hoarsely chanting marchers were empty; the spark was gone.

So, Marxism may be dead, on that account today, because there is probably no foreseeable constructive role for it to play in the present world crisis, unless China, perhaps, were inclined to bring it back to serve what China might perceive to be its interests. The crucial failure of Marx's economics, and his method otherwise, is that he was a thorough reductionist in method, for whom, as for Frederick Engels, as for the Thomas Huxley with whom Engels shared much in common, actual human individual creativity did not exist. Today, the dwindling number of unrepentant Marxists taken into account, Marx as an economist has become chiefly a subject of special interest for certain appropriate specialists in a period of history which is now dead and most unlikely to be reborn. Some have argued wrongly, since the 1970s, that I killed it; actually, I simply reported, accurately, on its killing of itself.

from
Greenspan, Seneca, And Their Baths
by Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr.
July 25, 2005
http://www.larouchepac.com/pages/writings_files/2005/050725_greenspan_seneca.htm
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