Will you still support the Dems after Abu Grhaib photos are released?

[walldude]

You know I’ve been thinking about this for awhile. We here at DU are incredibly informed. It’s almost scary how well informed we are. Let’s check, show of hands. How many of you are almost afraid to see the rest of the photo’s from Abu Grhaib, because you already know what’s in them? I know I am, thanks to Seymour Hearsh and some released testimony. Keep your hands up if you consider yourself informed on these subjects: Downing Street Memo? Valerie Plame? Siebel Edmonds? 8 billion dollars missing from Iraqi reconstruction financing? Improperly equipped troops? Need I go on?
If plain old people like us have uncovered this insane amount of information I can only imagine what those in power know. This administration keeps more secrets than any other in history. Which means that all the “gates” we have uncovered are still just the tip of the iceberg.
This brings me to my problem. What are we going to do after(if) the rest of the Abu Grahib pictures are released? Given the energy expelled by the administration to keep them hidden, including outright defiance of a federal order to release the pictures, I have to assume that they are as bad and probably a lot worse than we already know. My issue here is that the Dems have already seen those photos. How can I ever again stand behind people like Kerry, Dean, Clinton, etc when these people have blatantly kept the horrible truth hidden from us. Is being an elected official more important than bringing to justice the people who are committing crimes against humanity, on my fucking dime? We are not talking about Rush’s “college pranks” here we are talking about the rape and torture of children. You know that’s what’s in those photos, I know it, the freeps will never believe it till they see it for themselves, and the Dems have already seen it. They’ve seen it, and they let it go. How can I, as a human being, in good conscience, support someone who would try to bury this? The fact of the matter is… I can’t. I know there are a lot of people on DU who fully throw their support behind certain Dems. What will you do when you find out that they knew firsthand what was in those photos? Will you still say Kerry is a stand up guy? Dean? Clinton? Hell what about the people like John Conyers and Barbara Boxer? When those photos get released a lot of people are going to have a lot of explaning to do….

[NYCGirl]

1. How did Howard Dean see any of them?

He wasn't a representative or a senator or on any of the committees that the material was shown to.

[ulysses]

2. which Dems?

[walldude]

5. Were the photos not shown to Congress and the Senate

IIRC they all had a chance to look at them. I remember reading about people throwing up after seeing them.

Do you actually believe that the Dems don't know what's in those photos?

[lostnfound]

25. I do NOT believe they have all seen them. I think only a select group.

And certainly Howard Dean would have had no opportunity to see them.

[deadparrot]

3. First, I just want them to get released.

It'll be a bittersweet moment, because the truth absolutely needs to come out. But I just get :scared: in thinking about the horrors that those pictures show, especially what's being done to children. Kids are a soft spot with me; if someone hurts them, I explode.

I can't say for sure how I'm going to feel, because the way they're described, I think it will take a major emotional toll on me, and I don't know how that reaction will affect my political views.

Sorry I'm rambling. It's late.

[walldude]

6. Not rambling anymore than me

:toast:

[stepnw1f]

4. You Have a Link? RELEASE THE PHOTOS NOW!!!!! (nt)

[shraby]

7. There wasn't much the Dems could do.

They've tried to get investigations but the Pugs won't allow any. The Republicans won't allow any investigations into anything much less the torture.

[FreedomAngel82]

19. Exactly

Even Biden tried to get documents on Bolton and they wouldn't budge. These people are all criminals in the Bush administration and those who are protecting them. I think a lot of them are probably scared of two outcomes: 1) they're not re-elected cause they aren't supporting Bush enough 2) they aren't re-elected because they helped Bush. So either way many, many of them lose. I think once these photo's are released and we can win back the House and Senate and hold real hearings on everything the whole nation will be surprised. I just hope we can hold real hearings on election fraud from 2000 and 2004, the early and illegal bombings of Iraq as told by Tim Goodrich and Hart Viges, Abu Grhaib, Guntanamo Bay, Iran dealing with Halliburton, the Downing Street Minutes reports and Bush letting BinLaden get away at Tora Bora. I'm sure there's something(s) I probably missed. But once we do get power back there is going to be a lot of work to be done but I know we're ready now to do it. The world pretty much knows everything and we do because we get news from other sources we've learned to trust. If Michael Moore's movie shocked people just wait until this. And I wonder how the troops will react as well....

[walldude]

26. You are making my point for me.

They are willing to let this go, so they can be re-elected. I realize we have no power right now but this silence is killing me... If everything you say happens, and we get these bastards for everything they ever did, I would still know in my heart that there were people who kept silent because they valued their political careers more than the lives of the people in those photos. Many of whom were released because they did nothing wrong.

[Stand and Fight]

27. Succinct point in your post...

It is for this very reason that the Republicans will do ANYTHING to ensure they win next year and in 2008. They know the whole damn house of cards will come down on them if they allow the Democrats to recapture the House, Senate, or White House.

[wli]

8. an honest general needs to leak them n/t

[loudsue]

12. All of the "honest generals" have been fired, retired, outsourced

or Wellstoned. And all of the dirty generals have been promoted to cushier places.

I just wish the guy that took the pictures had made a copy, and hid it somewhere.

:kick:

[FreedomAngel82]

23. Yes

This is something Bush knew had to be done. He knew, to save his own ass, that he had to fire those who he knew put the law and country above loyalty. Last December he purged the CIA. Anybody who wasn't a "yes" person he fired. Remember all of those Generals, even the most decorated, told Bush "no" but he only heard "yes".

[DemInDistress]

9. Dude...you make a good point..

Did all the Dems view those photo's?These abuses came under Bush's Command.Democrats should support the release/even make an issue of rejecting a Court's Order to release them.Should we contact our Democratic officials and make some noise? Personally,I want to see those pics.....

[walldude]

13. Exactly.. their silence is deafening

And while I stand against the Chimp I'm not sure if I'll be able to stand for the Dems if those photos show what we have heard they do. I remember a line from a movie, "Our side, their side, whatever. All I know is I have a friend in trouble, and I'm on his side.

[NYCGirl]

14. You want to answer my question in Post #1? NT

[walldude]

20. Sure...

Try some of my links posted below. Dems know. You think the head of the DNC doesn't know what the rest of them know?

on edit-You know I've voted Dem almost my whole life, this isn't an easy subject here. But I have to be honest with myself...

[NYCGirl]

22. He was not in a position to see the materials.

He's likely heard the same things we have. The senators weren't given copies to give out, you know.

[walldude]

32. True.. but do you really think

that not one person mentioned it to Dean? Word kind of gets around. I will give you this, along with Conyers and Boxer, Dean is one of my favorites and I really hope you are right.

[spindoctor]

10. Those in power?

You overestimate politicians. Most don't have time to actually stay on top of the issues. They hire people for that.
The representatives who still care get their info mostly from....us.

[walldude]

18. Some links

http://www.showmenews.com/2004/May/20040513News025.asp

http://talkleft.com/new_archives/006474.html

Lots of other links on this one.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Abu_Ghraib:_Photographic_Evidence_of_Brutality

They know everything.

[brettdale]

11. What century will the photos be released in?

Heck they still havent released all the documents over JFK.

[Warren DeMontague]

15. IF the photos come out, there's gonna be some 'splainin' to do, Lucy

And it's not only gonna be the GOP that's going to have to do it.

[mmonk]

16. Anyone elected

and has seen them and has not pressed for their release but has remained silent on the issue should be shamed as much as possible by us. It's a matter of humanity and decency. That being said, I'm sure some are pressing for an accounting. Those that haven't don't have my respect.

[Al-CIAda]

17. The photos need to be released if only to show to the deniers

the truth. Every R to a letter denies the severity, and minimizes the crimes. Rape, murder, and torture - of innocent people.

[niallmac]

21. If we are forbidden to see the caskets

and pictures of the carnage in our newspapers and TVs then the war is dishonest and supporters of it are hypocrits. Photos not suitable for children? Why not? They are just pictures of our slain enemy who was about to leap into our houses at any minute right? The dead soldiers are heros fighting for a noble cause and not a reminder to ask oursleves why, right?
When at war our government is a killing machine whether you think a certain war is right or wrong. Killing is not real when all you read about are insurgents and numbers. What the hell is an insurgent? Any kids, women, innocents husbands fathers who get killed too? Apparently not. Nope, just killin insurgents y'all so don't worry yer little heads. Hey, how 'bout that runaway bride? Weren't she a hoot?

[Stand and Fight]

24. Howard Dean?!? Democrats who have been kept out of committee meetings?!?

How do you figure that Chairman Dean saw any of these photos? Who's to say that he is not being kept in the dark along with the rest of us. I'm sorry -- I wasn't a Dean supporter by any means, but he is one of the few who I feel would blow the lid off of this if he knew anything. As for the rest of the names you mentioned, we don't know who knows what given the secrecy of this administration. Consider Bush's actions in October of 2001 where even members of Congress were not privy to certain information. Who is to say that Senators Kerry, Clinton, Boxer, and others have actually seen these photos? They most certainly cannot just come out and say something if they don't even know. Quite frankly, we do not know what they know. What we do know is that the Bush cartel knows what's in these photos, videos, and the testimonies, and they have willfully attempted to cover it up. Blaming Democrats -- the MINORITY party -- is ridiculous. The fact of the matter is -- you and everyone else DO NOT KNOW if the Democrats in Congress know anything. Didn't you hear about the fact that they actually been BARRED from certain committee meetings? So, don't assume anything at this point. Go on what you know and attack the Republicans and the Bush administration, but don't start attacking Democrats. That's just wrong. Period.

[walldude]

28. Um.. take a glance at the links I posted

The photos were shown to congress, Dems and Repubs alike made statements like "whatever you are imagining, it's 10 times worse." IMHO once those photos were shown to congress word probably spread like wildfire across the Hill. I don't believe there is a single person on Capitol Hill who doesn't know whats in those photos.

And BTW I'm talking about all Dems, I just used those names because they attract attention, and Conyers and Boxer are like heroes to me.

[Stand and Fight]

30. Very valid point.

It would seem that there asses are going to be in a sling as well. I, however, still strongly disagree with you that Chairman Howard Dean knows anything. Those in Congress? Totally reasonable that they do, but we still have to realize that we live under the Patriot Act and Democrats ARE the MINORITY party surely muzzled by it.

[evilqueen]

29. Hmmmmm....

I won't think any different about any of the Dems. I think they are fairly spineless, but being the minority party they're not miracle workers.

OTOH, come on, video game violence and steroids in baseball is more important than providing body armor for our troops or pushing for an Iraq audit?

Your bringing up this topic, however, leads to another thought...

Could this be why 700 soldiers of the 82nd Airborne are being sent to do security at Abu Ghraib?

[RoyGBiv]

31. Small point ...

I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the people in Congress who are actually calling for the photos to be released are, mostly, Democrats. The people who are calling for Rumsfeld's head because of the photographs are Democrats. The people *not* calling the events depicted in the photographs an "aberration" are Democrats.

So will I support Democrats after they are released? Of course.

Will I support individual Democrats who tried, by deed or lack thereof, to keep them hidden? Doubtful.

You're using a rather broad brush here. Reading some of the stories accessed via the links you provided, the picture I see is one of the GOP stonewalling or trying to ignore the photos altogether while various Democrats are working against them. So, pardon me for not being quite clear how this all justifies the implicit criticism of all Dems generally.

[walldude]

36. Point taken..

A few Dean supporters have also taken me to task. As well they should have. Nothing is ever absolute. But there are alot of people in office and proportionately, very few of them are screaming. It took the ACLU to get the photos released. How many Dems publicly supported the ACLU. I mean LOUDLY. I could probably count on both hands the Dems who supported them loudly enough for me to hear. And I like to think I'm fairly well informed. I guess since everything is starting to snowball I'm going to have to keep a closer eye on people, and start supporting individual Dems instead of the actual Democratic Party. :toast:

[RoyGBiv]

37. Counter-point taken ...

I thought after posting that I suspect your real criticism is that this is not being screamed from the rooftops, and on that point, you're quite right.

I will still support Dems, but my version of support also includes letting them know, without reservation, when they are not doing enough or not doing what they are doing the way I believe they should.

:toast: back at ya. :-)

[delen]

33. Problem is

Right now it is * by proxy, meaning the military holding up the release of the pictures and it is an active court case, could be that if the Dems who have seen them were to say too much at this point the RW's would be screaming about LLL's trying to influence the court and I could just see what the Coulter-Limbough types would be screeching Liberal Democrats promoting the distribution of "child porn" if some haven't done that already.

[burrowowl]

34. I support the Black

Caucus Dems and Kucinich and a few others. But the Dem Party in general, well I vote for them unless somebody else, Green or Socialist, has a chance. Kennedy has done what he can without getting assassinated. But the other DLC types, my heart is not with them. Remember Dean tends towards Libertarian and Kucinich was against the war long before Dean. W. Clark might be a practical choice. And as I have said Bill Clinton was the best Republican president since Eisenhower and Eisenhower looking back was probably more Liberal. All of this shows how much U$ Americans ((yes the other Americans exist and their countries have names, we don't the United States of America ....???? Mexico is a United States of Mexico and is in the Northern hemisphere, etc., the U$ of A is a no name country that pretends it is the UNITED STATES of AMERICA)....
200,000 Guatemalan Indigenous people dead from Raygun and I could tell you other stories (personal family ones before that)) have NO IDEA!
Please read: Howard Zinn: A Peoples' History of the United States and Kevin Philips: Wealth and Democracy, and wake yourselves up to the deeper currents. Of course we cannot support this as moral human beings.
:rant:
I just get pissed when having visited and being part of other countries like Mexico and France that Americans are so ignorant of the difference between liberal and neo-liberal, laissez-faire capitalism, imperialism-spreading 'democracy' (ware leftists) etc. that even taxi drivers know elsewhere, etc. Finally got a 23 year-old almost interested in politics: birth control pills and how Roe vs Wade might affect sleeping with her boy Friend without being married (i.e., PRIVACY).
Edit: I forgot our dear and courageous Indepenent Socialist Representative from Vermont, a contrast to Dean. May he win a seat in the Senate! GO BERNIE!

[delen]

35. To answer the question

I would not support anyone who is or was actively against the release of these pictures.
I do have one fear about freeper's though that at least some of them will still not care.