I Feel We Should Withdraw Now

[stepnw1f]

Bring the UN and make an agreement with the Iraqi people. Let them sort things out on their own after a safe pullout. That's all. I do not want to the same shit we had in Vietnam happen again. The withdrawal was a massacre.

If we can make this safer, I say we withdraw now!

[thoughtanarchist]

1. I vote Yea.

It looks like their problem is that they're not certian about federalism. Let them carve Iraq into several loosly confederated states. The UN would perfect to mediate this kind of agreement...

It would make a great out.



:think:

on edit: grammer

[DemInDistress]

7. I agree with you..

Let there be three regions in Iraq...The North would be controlled by the Kurds..The South will be controlled by the Shiia's.The Central part of Iraq should be controlled by the Sunni's..Now both the North and South regions would contribute 50% of oil sales to Central Iraq.Each region could have 2 leaders who twice a year would meet to discuss how to improve their country,work out agreements for unimpeded passage between regions and massive reconstructions projects to benefit all Iraqi"s...However the biggest hurdle is the USA..Bush/Cheney will not abandon Iraq's vast oilfields.Those 2 scumbag oilmen from Texas with all their greedy oil buddies wont part with ALL THAT OIL....I could see good things happen in Iraq if we got out.Hell,didn't bush cut and run from Afghanistan without the head of osama,Bush did say"wanted dead or alive"..Let them{Iraqi's} carve out their own future...

[thoughtanarchist]

11. but we got bases there...

and something tells me we were planning to stay in them for awhile.
That's a big kitty for the administration to just throw down their cards and leave the table. It's like tactical strategery. :dunce:


I can't help but feel that they could get out with no adverse consequences but that they just don't want to do it. Access to the oil contracts and the potential for military presence (a base from which to launch the next war) is too shiny a bauble to tear away from just because they suffer some "collateral damage". But they take notice when they suffer political damage. It's the pressure of public opinion that is driving the search for an out and If it wasn't for the groundswell of dissent, I'm sure we'd be making longer term plans.

[knowbody0]

2. I say yes

offer restitution, have Halliburton employ only Iraqi citizens, withdraw the troops to Kuwait NOW

[Autonomy]

3. The UN will not come

It's our mess; we have to clean it up. Too bad it was never in our power. Nothing will make it safer. The truth cannot get any gloomier.

Bush will go down as not only the worst president in US history, but as one of the worst world leaders of all time. His incompetence will put him in the same category as the most tyranical dictators.

[Telly Savalas]

14. Perhaps you can answer my question...

I'm too lazy to type it all out again, so here's a link to a thread I started where I never got a straight answer:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4387549&mesg_id=4387549

Edit: by the way, I totally agree that we can't expect support from other nations on this.

[WatchWhatISay]

4. I hear we are recruiting soldiers from all over the world.

Why not do more of that, but under the command of Iraqi army, with a very minimal amount of American military assistance. Pay them with all that Iraqi oil revenue they talked about before the war. And bring nearly all American soldiers home.

[Jackpine Radical]

5. I really don't see an alternative.

Think for a moment. Even putting the UN in wouldn't really work. Who are the UN? They are peacekeeping troops from around the world. First, who among them would go? The Canadians? The Europeans? They all look pretty much like us & would probably be seen as just a new set of interlopers. UN peacekeepers don't stick around when shooting happens.

Would we send in Moslem members of the UN? Who? Arabs or non-Arabs? Sunnis or Shia? Indonesians maybe? When you come down to cases, who could actually go in there & put it all together?

And put what together? Can a country with a previously-suppressed Arab Shia majority, an Arab Ba'athist-dominated Sunni minority and a historically victimized and chronically unhappy Kurdish population be somehow welded together into a happy family? Especially when some groups are in oil-rich territories and others are in dirt-poor regions? Some are secularists, some are fundamentalists, etc. How do you put all this together? Saddam did it by brute force, like a middle-eastern version of Tito.

Maybe the only way out is to re-install Saddam & tiptoe for the exit.

[Autonomy]

6. I am thinking the same thing

but have not had the courage to say it.

[thoughtanarchist]

8. don't send anyone else in

send the leaders out. The UN would be a perfect vehicle to take the Iraqi delegates out of their chaotic surroundings and hammer out a deal. Give them the option of carving up the country into self-governed regions with a minimalist agreement of confederation.

If the alternative is instability, why not allow them separate self-governing societies instead of insisting they shoulder a centralized federal govt?

[Autonomy]

9. Because the Sunni portion of Iraq

has no oil to speak of, and an independent Kurdish state would incite Turkey and Iran to attack.

There are probably several dozen other reasons why they don't want to break up the country.

[thoughtanarchist]

12. And that is a problem....How?

That should make hammering out an agreement even easier as we have parties off the bat with needs that the others can provide. They need an agreement of shared resources and shared defense.

Seems like a mutually beneficial agreement lies only in working out the details...

:shrug:

[Autonomy]

13. If it were that easy

they would have agreed on a consitution already. But some groups would be better off without the others. Specifically, the Shia and the Kurds wouldn't mind getting rid of the Sunnis. That's why the Sunnis have been so repressive toward these other groups for so long.

The surrounding states have an interest in maintaining a whole Iraq. Turkey wants no independent Kurdistan. Neither does Iran. The Arab states don't want to see the Sunnis economically disenfranchised.

Taking the consitutional committee out of the country would nullify any credibility of it and of any document they ratified in exile. No credibility or authority. Zip. Zero. Nada. None.

[thoughtanarchist]

15. regardless

tough shit for the sunnis if they have to settle for a less than optimal arrangement, and tough shit for Turkey and Iran if there is a self governed Kurdish State of Iraq. If they want a more comfortable outcome, let Turkey and Iran stabilize the country.

Iraq is in no condition to be a threat to any neighboring states (yup, still) so there's no excuse to object on those grounds.

I see your point on removing the delegates to a degree, but I still think the UN would be able to provide negotiation assistance to expedite an agreement and get us out.

[Autonomy]

16. Hmm...

Do you think all these competing interests will accept "tough shit" as an answer?

It's not that Iraq is a threat militarily; anything other than a whole Iraq that can defend itself from its neighbors and put down any secessionist movements is a threat for invasion and destabilization of the entire region, which could spread due to world economic interests and decay into WWIII. I am not exaggerating.

[moddemny]

18. "Maybe the only way out..........

........... is to re-install Saddam & tiptoe for the exit."


That was a joke right? You forgot to put the sarcasm next to it?

[Karenina]

20. Hmmm...

[Drum]

10. Respectfully,

I would have reservations about that, despite my strong feelings against the ass-clowns who have done all this policy+ damage.

No one seems to be warm to giving support (after all of the ultamata the US gave to potential partners regarding "resources" and the commercial aftermath,) and even in the face of this very public fiasco no one else seems to be offering anything. So I think that assistance would be tough to get, particularly for this go-it-alone, tough-guy-cliche in the Oval Office. Total denial there.

If there was anybody who hung onto my esteem--for awhile--in the past term, it was Colin Powell, who summed up what I mean: "Mr. President, if we break it we've bought it" (paraphrasing here.) On top of all the bad will we've accrued as a national entity from all of the many non-combat f***-ups, the war policy has done such other damage that the US has to do something to repair or preserve some order and infrastructure. While I feel very strongly as you and others here, and definitely do not want anything like another debacle like Vietnam, I think immediate withdrawal would doom a lot more lives.

I've read others' much more organized posts on some conditions and steps which seem to make a lot of sense, and I'd urge you to look out for them. Terms like relinquishing the right to have permanent military bases in Iraq, for instance. This sounded right off to be a first step, and takes away that stink of colonization (to be blunt, not raping and then forcing to marry.)

I am bitterly mad at this "administration," upset by this posse of idiots and all of their many lackeys, but I think maybe something might be preserved of the whole mess, namely that the country Bush&Co have so decimated might go on completely without the US. Soon. We've already sunk so low in the eyes of the world's people, that we've gotta do it the best way (but I'm talking really soon.)

Otherwise, here on the homefront, let's keep pushing...truth will out.

[newyawker99]

22. Hi Drum!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[delen]

17. Would the Iraqi people

follow any Constitution this American backed government came up with?
While they negotiate civil war is brewing outside, last week Shiite Insurgents took over city hall in Baghdad. If we did withdraw militarily without UN over site Iraq might well fall into chaos, with Sunni's facing near genocide. I also find it hard to believe that* didn't know this prior to invading.
We must also take care not to allow Halliburton to became the 21st century East India Company.

[zippy890]

19. No they won't - good point

"Halliburton the 21rst century East India Co"-- yes, trying to open up markets for american companies - imperialism 21rst century style.

I agree that the US should withdraw and assist in coordinating & funding a UN presence - of arab countries. The longer the US military occupying force is there the worse it is going to get - much worse than Vietnam.

Welcome to DU to you and poster above you!

:hi:

[stepnw1f]

25. That's Why Say We Should Start a Plan to Pull Out

All this nonsense from both sides of the aisle sound stubbron and childish. All while people die in our name. I have a hard time swallowing that.

[1932]

21. I'm reading a book about Namibian independence.

It was a process that began in the late 50s and culminated in independence in 1990.

In the late 50s and early 60s, SWAPO, the political party seeking independence from South African rule, reduced it's political goals to three items:

(1) An end to the pass system (black Namibians' mobility was severely restricted by a pass system, which made it very difficult to organize politically);

(2) And end to SWANLA (IIRC), which was essentially a government run Manpower, Inc.-like temporary employment agency which was even worse than slavery, since employers were less inclined to treat employees decently if they didn't own them and could get a replacement easily through the government employment agency; and

(3) UN control of Namibia as a transition to independence, despite the fact that the UN did very little to enforce South Africa's long-standing legal obligation to allow Namibian independence.

I'm only 1/4 the way through the book, but I suspect they didn't get these things and they ended up fighting a guerilla war against South Africa that succeeded with the help of Castro, incidentally.

So, I agree with the OP. To avoid misery, violence, instability and dislocation, the best thing to do would be to get the US out of Iraq, give control to the UN and have a transition to independence.

But even if this happens, you can bet that there will be powerful intereststs working to ensure independence doesn't succeed (and it will also free the US army to impose the corporatocracy's political will other places around the globe).

[seabeyond]

23. i dont like leaving iraq in mess we created. i say yes to pullout

because i have been reading iraqi blogs, from prior to invasion and they are now saying the u.s. cannot help them, and they must pullout. they are the ones there seeing and experiencing and best to judge what they need. so i will go off how they see it, not my own interpretation from so far away.

[Jackpine Radical]

24. The first step toward an Iraqi solution

would be regime change at home. We need a Dem majority in 2006 followed by I&I (investigatins & impeachment). Realistically, nothing good is gonna happen before then.