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gizmo1979 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 11:53 AM
Original message
Who has the scoop on Irelands boom times?
I just read where they are the NO1 exporter of sofware and are the envy of the world.When did this happen?I saw where the are also the NO.1 spender on education.I would imagine there is a correlation there.Here the repugs are trying their best to hack away at our schools,maybe they should read about Ireland.
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mojavekid Donating Member (993 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
1. Do you have a link to the article?
I was there in March after 10 years, and what a difference! The changes were both good and bad. Things are actually slowing down now, with construction being a big driver in the local economies. I understand a lot of the firms that set up there to take advantage of the tax breaks and relatively inexpensive and well educated labor force have recently been moving their operations to E. Europe.

where there were once rolling green hills around Dublin, are now poorly constructed American style housing tracks, and everyone now needs a car to commute to jobs, take the kids to school, and get to the grocery store.
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gizmo1979 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Here you go.
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theshadow Donating Member (618 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
2. This topic is in this morning's Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel...
Edited on Sat Aug-20-05 12:08 PM by theshadow
.... editorial page. The link is http://www.jsonline.com/news/editorials/aug05/349598.asp, but for those who don't want to register, here's the text.
==============================================

Editorial: Learning from the Irish
By RICHARD FOSTER
rfoster@journalsentinel.com
Posted: Aug. 19, 2005

Those of our readers who have had the good fortune to visit Ireland know that, even on its most beautiful days, Milwaukee is not as green or lush as Ireland at its best. But Milwaukee offers something else, which is the kind of warm welcome that should be bestowed on Mary McAleese, president of Ireland, who is visiting our city this weekend to represent her country at Milwaukee's 25th annual Irish Fest, which runs through Sunday.

Milwaukee and Wisconsin should do more than welcome McAleese, however. Along with members of the Legislature and others, the city should learn how Ireland has managed to transform itself from a low-growth European backwater into one of the world's most envied economies. Some features of this transformation were reported Friday by the Journal Sentinel's John Schmid.

No one in recent years, perhaps, has described Irish poverty more poignantly than Frank McCourt did in "Angela's Ashes," his 1996 memoir of growing up as a member of an impoverished family in Ireland in the 1930s and '40s.

Even as late as the mid-1980s, Ireland was in the economic doldrums. Employment was falling, and many of its best and brightest college graduates were leaving Ireland in a phenomenon recalling the brain drain that has afflicted Milwaukee and Wisconsin in recent years. Among other gloomy statistics is one noting that Ireland in the mid-'80s ranked in the lowest third among the world's top 26 industrialized nations in educational performance.

That has changed dramatically in large part because, like many governments in similar predicaments, Ireland took drastic deficit-reduction measures. But, as Schmid noted, these cutbacks never interfered with huge investments in education and in government-sponsored university research grants. In fact, the Irish university system lies at the heart of Ireland's economic transformation. The payoff has been huge. Ireland has tripled the size of its economy since 1987, and its jobless rate has dropped to just over 4% from 17.5%, which was among the highest in Western Europe at the time.

Northern Ireland has enjoyed a similar economic boom, reports Nigel Hamilton, head of the civil service in Northern Ireland. About 140 U.S. companies now operate there, providing jobs for some 50,000 people. This economic boom was made possible in large measure by a ceasefire that the Irish Republican Army agreed to in 1996. In late July, the foundations for peace were extended when the IRA formally declared an end to its armed struggle and promised instead to pursue its goals through "exclusively peaceful means."

Recognizing the possibility that some of Ireland's educational innovations can be exported to Milwaukee and transplanted here, University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee Chancellor Carlos Santiago proposes to build ties to the Irish university system and learn how the universities are structured and how they connect to the private sector.

In spite of scandals surrounding backup jobs given to people who shouldn't have been given them, the UW System deserves the continuing public support it seeks. The relationship between investments in higher education and economic performance is undeniable, as the Irish experience shows. Thus, even as our city bestows a warm welcome on Ireland's president, it should be learning a thing or two from her.

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CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
4. just got back from there
Edited on Sat Aug-20-05 12:15 PM by CountAllVotes
I had not been there in over 20 years. My god, what a change. Some was good, other was not so good.

As for the boom, it will not last as their economy is based on not a hell of a lot of anything. Dublin has been shredded with roads and tunnels and OMG talk about rude people. I was ripped off and cheated at so many places there.

I think even the people living there know that it will not last forever. However, in the meantime, 300,000 euros will buy you a dump to live in. They have become "Americanized" or so they think. I was really sad to see that they have forgotten their history it seems to me. As to their former state of being an impoverished nation - a memory that no longer exists for many being over 50% of the people living there are 30 years or younger.

An economy yes, but based on what? Jobs? I checked the papers and they did not pay much more than jobs here in the USA and they were not aplenty. There were lots of people from other countries that were working there though and they were taking the crummy jobs and working for nothing (like off-shoring IN YOUR FACE). The cost of things is outrageous there now too. That sweater I bought for 35 Irish punts 20 years ago now sells for 400 euros! And no, the phone system is no better now that it was 20+ years ago.

I will say one thing, the older people living there are not happy about the changes. The Catholic Church is a thing of the past too.

:kick:

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Oldpals Donating Member (109 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Rude people
Are you talking about rude people in Dublin or in Ireland in general? Are you saying that the economy that has been affluent for 15 years is not succeeding?
I have been to Ireland many times and have found the people to be informed and very courteous.
I don't understand what it is you are driving at with your post. You seem extremely negative.
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CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. in Dublin only
That is where there were rude people yes.

And as for the ripping-off aspect there is a website called rip-off Ireland that has a listing of all of the rip-offs going on.

It was otherwise a fine place to go, I was just rather shocked by Dublin and especially O'Connell Street. I really would not ever go there again. I did not feel the least bit safe.

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mojavekid Donating Member (993 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. I thought I was being a bit harsh on the Irish when I was there,
but you should have heard my (Irish) friend we were staying with. Made me sound tame - which I was, I was a guest. However, I still am very much in love with the country and the people.
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CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. you should hear what my Irish relatives have to say
*whew* and they are all much older folks. They are glad on some levels, not glad at all on other levels. They are upset with the rapid changes and they agree, it is an economy based on not a hell of a lot of anything.

Their reality growing up in Ireland was bascially the story told by Frank McCourt in Angela's Ashes and no, the won't forget and don't want to forget either.

They know that they must not ever forget their past.

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mojavekid Donating Member (993 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Sadly,
The people have been changed by the money that came flooding in, both from the EU which put Ireland high up on the list of nations to receive development funds, the American companies that came over, and the "jobs".

I was standing in line at the airport in Dublin and I was saying to my wife that I didn't remember meeting a rude (see; American) person last time we were in Ireland, and what a disappointment, an older Irish ex-patriot turned around and said that I was right, and that she also was shocked - having returned after twenty five years.

We went out to Connemara to get away from it, and were very saddened by all the vacant, utilitarian vacation cottages built everywhere without respect to their environment, all of this is just like what happened here, and it was doubly sad given the high gas prices and the the effect declining Oil and Natural Gas production are going to have on this "Celtic Tiger"
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CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. yes I saw those too
Edited on Sat Aug-20-05 12:41 PM by CountAllVotes
I was traveling in the northern part of Ireland in the Free Republic which it is still fairly inaccessible. Much of the history still remains but all of the roads and freeways going through areas of archaeological significance just seem to go right on through. Are there laws protecting these areas I asked? I'd really like to know. Many of them are thousands of years old and will be paved over in the future I suspect.

There was some anti-Americanism there too I found; mostly in Dublin however. This was distressing at best as my family is from there and have been traveling back and forth for many many years also as do other members of my family (some several times a year).

And yeah, you are right, the older people are bummed out by the changes, not that I particularly blame them.

However, the education system is indeed fine. I was astonished by the young people and how well read they were which far exceeds what you see here in the USA. That part was good.

I'll go back again but I'll be certain to avoid Dublin. It was gross and disgusting and it angered me the ripping-off part.

http://www.ripoff.ie/

It was not making a lot of the people there happy either, believe me.

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mojavekid Donating Member (993 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. The news had a feature on some development,
that would, if approved, pass right next to, or though a portion of Tara, would be like putting a fwy. right in front of the White House.

That was shocking.

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bostonbabs Donating Member (465 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
8. Corporate tax rate is 12.5% lowest in
Europe also educated and english speaking . Companies love them.
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mojavekid Donating Member (993 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. These are the same reasons that the companies are moving,
from Ireland to Eastern Europe, though english is not a first language in those nations, it is spoken by most every young person in the cities.

It happened here, outsourced from America to Mexico, now from Mexico to China.
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CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. many there did not speak English
Edited on Sat Aug-20-05 12:36 PM by CountAllVotes
being they were from China, Poland, Germany, Latvia and other non-English speaking countries. This was frustrating to everyone, both the Irish and the visitors that do speak English.

I don't know how long the "boom" will last and they don't either. But for now, the tiger roars, oh yes it does.

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mojavekid Donating Member (993 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. I found the immigrants to be extremely kind,
and hard working, wanting to help. Outside of pubs, most of the busboys, waiters were foreign and very kind. The Chinese we met in the groceries, gift shops, etc. also very kind, and this was on O'Connell St. as well.

The changes were typical for any developing nation, and Ireland will experience the boom and bust cycle, just like anywhere else.
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CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. yes the immigrants were very nice people
I agree. The frustrating part was that many didn't speak any English at all. Still the same, they were nice people and glad to be there I could tell.

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fishnfla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
11. Universal health care, universal higher education
makes them attractive to employers
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CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. I met a woman from Belfast while there
She had cancer and it had recurred and she has a tumor the size of an apple and is on a waiting for 6 months to see a doctor! Now that made me MAD! :grr:

However, she was from the north and not under the rule of the Free Republic.
:(

Poor woman, she was kind towards me and I liked her very much. I hope she lives to see the doctor.


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gizmo1979 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #11
20. After trying to finance
my daughters college education,I find universal higher education very attractive also.
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HockeyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
17. IT jobs going to Ireland too
Certainly, not on the grand scale as India (cheap wages), but it has been happening. When my husband was looking for mainframe jobs using search engines, he always came up with India, or Dublin.

Too bad he didn't get a job in Ireland. I have cousins in Dublin and have been there several times. Honestly, I would rather move to Ireland than where he did eventually get a a job - Florida. I am not a Summer person.

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