DUers berated for not honoring the troops, by DUers. Why?

[uppityperson]

I have been told that I do not give the troops the honor they deserve. I have noticed others told the same thing. This has happened here on DU in the last couple days. I don't think the people expressing this are trolls, based on other things they say, and I'd like to straighten this out.

Background:
I would not join the military, instead chose to serve humanity in a different way. I respect anyone who joins the military for the reason of protecting this country and the world. I disrespect anyone who uses those people for their own purposes. Mr.bush sent the troops into war based on a shitload of lies. I still do not understand his reasons and suspect he does not either. He had no plan and has no plan yet, years later. (Please do not use this topic to educate me on this, I am telling you this as background on my feelings.)

How I feel:
By saying that no matter how well trained they are, few are prepared to deal with the true horror of war (not the shooting and being shot at, but the constant fear and anxiety and soul eatingness of war) and I am heartbroken for the people who go through this in NO way diminishes the respect I have for them. On the contrary, it says I sorrow for what they are going through and says I have no respect for those who say "they knew what they were signing up for".

By saying that our soldiers have been injured and died for lies in NO way diminishes the respect I have for them. On the contrary, it says that I sorrow for them, their friends, their families and says I have no respect for the dishonorable commander that did this to them. Mr.bush mis-used thousands of our men and women and needs to be held accountable.

Request:
So please, please, quit assuming that we are dishonoring the troops when we express the above opinions. Quit telling us we dishonor them. I intend on ignoring you if you do.

Peace to all

[Nitrogenica]

1. The war was poorly planned, poorly executed and

has become a disaster for the entire world. That's not the fault of our troops.

[uppityperson]

3. Exactly, and by saying so I am not dishonoring them.

I am beginning to hate that over-used phrase "honor the troops".

[SouthernDem2004]

16. I disagree with poorly executed...

The war itself was properly planned and executed. The actual war went off extremely well. On the other hand, the occupation after the war was poorly planned and executed.

The military did its job. It broke things and killed people. The current administration failed to properly plan for events after the military did its job. Now the military is stuck with and is paying for their mistakes.

[Lars39]

28. No, Rumsfeld pushed for and received *less* troops

than what the planners wanted. They did not have enough troops.

[merh]

2. Exactly - Thank you for posting this.

You said it better than I could. :thumbsup:

:patriot:

[uppityperson]

15. You are welcome, I'm just getting tired of it

If we start buying into the talking points, we won't get far.

[merh]

17. I support the warrior, not the war.

:patriot:

[acmejack]

4. Some would have us venerate our soldiers

Among some of our conservative "friends" it is merely a cynical ploy to frame the war issue. The simple act of being a veteran bestows no higher moral or esteem upon a person, IMHO.

If tone has fought or served, it does provide them with a perspective unavailable to those who have not. There is intense camaraderie among members of the military, with many lifelong friendships formed.

Sorry you were flamed.

[BOSSHOG]

7. I'm a veteran and you are absolutely right

I'm no more an American or a Patriot than you are. And I was thanked by Uncle Sam every 1st and 15th of the month (Payday). My perspective and experience leads me to believe that our venture into Iraq is wrong. I am an American and therefore subject to scrutiny and criticism by my fellow Americans. Its really quite simple.

[Obamanaut]

29. I too am a veteran, a military retiree, and I agree both with

you and UP (the original post.) In the general population of the U.S. of nearly 300 million, there are rapists, murderers, thieves, pedophiles, arsonists, and other bad people. The same is true of the military - but just as in the gen. pop., not all are bad. Where is it wrong to point out that there are some scum in the military? It is true. Because I was not one of the evildoers, I take no offense when people spew deserved venom at the miscreants. I agree. I continue to thank the military and the taxpayer every time I check my bank account for the retirement check deposit. I was not a hero. I stayed for 28 years as a means of providing for my family. At 17 I had limited job prospects, not eligible for college and couldn't afford it anyway - so I enlisted and stayed.

In short, you're ok and correct.

[uppityperson]

31. Thank you for your service and for telling about it.

Appreciate you and your viewpoint as a long term military career person.

[uppityperson]

9. And the act of dying does not make you a "hero"

Thank you.

I do have my heros, but the mere act of dying, of being killed by someone or some disease does not make you a hero. I am not denying heroic actions or decreasing any esteem I have for a person who is killed, but the mere act of dying does not make you a hero.

[hfojvt]

24. dying to protect others does though

In the sense that they are dying to protect the rest of us that is heroic even if there are higher degrees of heroism (an accidental death vs. jumping on a grenade to save the squad). It is like a fireman who gets killed in a car accident on the way to a fire is still a hero because it was their effort to rescue people and property that put them where they were killed, but it is not the same as a firefighter who is killed because they went into a burning building to rescue some children.

Unfortunately, with soldiers, they can be ordered to start fires just as much as they can be used to put them out. So it is a fuzzier line. But even though they are on a bone-headed mission that never should have been started I would like to see a peaceful Iraq, at least as peaceful as our own country with its 30,000 homicides and two million crimes of violence and half a million rapes.

[uppityperson]

26. Altruistically sacrificing yourself in some way to help others=hero

It can be risking your life, your health, your reputation, many things. I disagree with the assumption that what they are dying for is to protect me.

[hfojvt]

32. that is what they signed up for though

the determination of whether they are protecting us is supposed to be made by the CiC and the Senate and indirectly by the voters. The soldiers are still doing their duty as firefighters even if the fire chief is corrupt and venal. They are still working for "the people" if the people fail to make the corrupt fire chief answer for his corruption.

[moddemny]

34. "And the act of dying does not make you a "hero""

And therein lies the problem you dont want others commenting on honoring troops but you insist on defining who is a hero.

If someone puts themselves in harm's way and is killed randomly by an artillery, mortar shell, gunfire, etc. they qualify for hero status if it was to protect/liberate someone else (especially if they could have not joined and had a comfortable life). They don't have to be rushing a machine gun nest at that particular moment. Those were the kind of threads I saw.......... If someone is killed by a mine or ied are they a hero? If they knowlingly travel a road that is frequently laced with ieds, then yes

As for disease, there are some diseases that are horrible enough, that cause enough pain that anyone who wakes up chooses to live another day without putting a bullet through their head can very easily be considered a hero.

Quit trying to diminish other people's sacrifice and suffering and maybe they won't be so vocal. No one is asking people to respect or honor or venerate veterans if it's so difficult for you, just quit trying to tear them down.

[uppityperson]

36. I am grateful for others sacrifices, am sorry for their suffering.

I am tired of some telling me I am not grateful for them because I am sorry for their suffering and because I do not honor this war. In no way am I diminishing their sacrifice or suffering, and I think you missed the point here.

People call others heros by the mere act that they died, for instance in a tragic accident. They were victims, not heros. Calling them heros diminishes the term for those who earn it by their actions. Altruistically sacrificing yourself in some way to help others is what makes someone a hero. It can be risking your life, your health, your reputation, many things.

Peace.

[moddemny]

48. "People call others heros by the mere act that they died,.......

for instance in a tragic accident."


Am I missing your point? Your original post is about soldiers and you are mentioning accidents. Did we switch topics or are you equating combat deaths with accidents?


I understand what you are saying when you say you chose another path through life and their are other types of heroes. I dont remember any threads here asking anyone to join the military............ let me backtrack and explain maybe why I am confused.......... all the threads I saw recently about the troops were not posts where someone made a statement like " we must honor our troops" and then berated people for disagreeing....... in all the recent threads or posts I saw someone started trashing the troops and then other DUer's jumped in to berate that DUer or offer another perspective...... if no one was trashing, no one else would have been berating other DUers. You may not agree that there was trashing but I have seen enough threads here (and I am not blaming the whole of DU..... I realize forums attract the best and worst of people) where people say troops are brainwashed, if you are killed by an ied or mine you are not a hero, soldiers who follow orders are like Nazis during World War II, etc.

[uppityperson]

50. You are right, I was adding in another usage of a word peeves

I am not equating combat deaths with accidents, although some are accidental deaths and others are killed on purpose. I was talking abut the usage of the word "hero", it being misused and demeaned for those who are truly heros.

It gets used, in my opinion, far too often for people who die in tragic accidents (another semantic, how could an accident be not tragic, but anyway) and for people who are killed in their line of work, like military, emergency, so on. Some of these people are heros, some just in the wrong place at the wrong time. If you take work that puts your life on the line, that is an accepted work condition for you and the mere act of your dying does not make you a hero. It is what you do while you are alive that makes you a hero. I wrote elsewhere on this topic more about heros, am too tired to look it all up and copy it on this # post again.

There are people on DU, as most forums, that espouse different, strongly held opinions and it can be difficult to have a polite discussion about our strong feelings. I find that the best way to figure out what someone is saying is take a couple back and forths, double check, because it is easy to be misunderstood on forums.

However, I am finishing up on DU for tonight. I will be back on tomorrow and will continue then, if you wish.

Peace

[uppityperson]

51. I wanted to respond more after being rested

Good morning. I got bashed for saying I was sorry for the people who have died or gotten injured in Iraq war and for saying that, no matter how good their training is, no one is adequately prepared for war.

I was told I was not "honoring the troops" by feeling sorrow at the loss of life and sorrow at the young age of many of them. I was told I was not "honoring the troops" by saying the negative outcome of participating in war is not just death or physical injury, but emotional and spiritual injury.

I was told that I insult them by saying their training is inadequate, and by not agreeing that they are heros by being in the military, chosing the military as a job, short or long term.

I have written elsewhere in this topic about what I consider a hero, that this topic has been discussed several times on DU that I have seen, and that we all have different ideas of what a "hero" is. Words, especially emotional ones, are difficult to come to a consensus on what they mean.

I suggest that we not get stuck on this term, but look at what each other is saying in the broader picture, support rather than bash, work together to hold Mr.bush to account for his lies about Iraq, to continue to bring attention to what is truly happening there and the fact that the bush administration does not have a plan for getting the war over, to prevent this from happening again (say in Iran).

[jonnyblitz]

5. great post! I completely concur...

I believe our troops are dying in vain and it has to stop NOW. denying this OBVIOUS fact does not make it otherwise. I am also a 10 year navy vet which i would like to state right now before someone tries to jump my shit for not being reverential enough. anybody who berates you for the opinions you stated in your post obviously is grandstanding.

[AuntieM1957]

6. I'm sorry that someone felt they had the right to tell you how

to behave or feel.

The only respect I owe anyone is that due another life on the planet.

Anything else I determine what and how much to give. I own who I value above others. No one else.

[fishnfla]

8. My perspective, FWIW

I am not one of those who say "they got what they signed up for"

But if someone posts in this forum that the soldiers are "brainwashed" (direct quote) I'm gonna get in their face. Someone claimed they were victims, which to me is the same thing as saying they get whatthey deserve. I call bullshit

Here's why: My opinion is that a huge failure of the antiwar movement of the sixties and seventies was the scorn heaped upon Viet Nam veterans by SOME on the left. Spit upon by demonstrators, called baby killers by others. They were also shunned and made pariahs by some segments of American society. Our "friends" in the so-called liberal media seemed to go out of their way to portray them as deranged and unstable drug addicts and drunks. Liberal(?) Hollywood had a field day demonizing soldiers in this way, or sending them back to refight the war and win (Rambo, Missing in action).

This was in the days before we all understood PTSD, but still it was a big mistake by the liberal left. We know better now. Our support should be complete, here, there, and when they get back (except for the bad seeds, those responsible for criminal acts at Abu Gharaib, etc).

I was reading Kissingers op-ed piece from the 8/12 WP. In the downsizing of the VN war after 1968, 500,000 troops were brought home. I thought man, what a bummer, we only have to worry about 138, 000 and thats hard enough.

[uppityperson]

11. My beef is "they knew what they were signing up for"

I would not call them brainwashed or say they got what they signed up for or any of the other negative bashing things. I am sorry if what I say has been mistaken as bashing soldiers as that is not the meaning.

I do not think anyone truly knows what war will do to them before they engage in it. That is what I am saying.

They do need complete support before, during and after war. I am sorry for the need for this support and hope that they are able to get it.

[Mythsaje]

13. Some probably are

brainwashed, that is. Certainly not all.

But all the necessities for brainwashing are there...the whole point of Basic Training (or Boot Camp) is to tear down a person to rebuild them into a specific image that fits the military model. Some are more susceptible to certain behavior modification techniques than others. That's why some return from the war questioning the whole thing and some come back spouting the same sort of crap we hear from the right. They probably weren't all that good at thinking for themselves in the first place. It's easier for them to surrender their hearts and minds to a "higher purpose."

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

22. do you know a vet who was spit upon?

DH is a 'Nam vet. I've asked him if he was ever spit on or called baby killer or if he knew any vet who was. He said No to both questions. He said he was thanked many times for his service, received many free drinks & was treated fine. He came back in '70 at pretty much the height of the anti-war movement & still had no problems.

Personally I think these rumors were started by the right to discredit the left.

best

[fishnfla]

30. personally? No

I used to be an armchair warrior, I probably have nearly 100 books on the VN war. Many are autobiograpical accounts. Several describe encounters with protesters at embarcation and disembarcment locations. I may be wrong on this, but Ron Kovac, of "Born on the 4th of July" fame was witness to it as well.

I'm not saying it was a universal/across the board type thing, but SOME antiwar activity got carried away. Like when they bombed the University of Wisconsin and an innocent person got killed (which was kinda the death knell for antiwar protests,IMO).

It was a difficiult time then. Fortunatly we know better than that now

Unfortunately, we have all these chickenhawks in charge. If they had been thru any of the difficulties back then they would know better.

Like Chuck Hagel

[uppityperson]

33. Thanks fishnfla, but secondhand accounts are urbanlegend stuff

Sort of like drying the cat in the microwave. Of course things happened and we're not saying that no one ever spit on anyone, or exploded a cat in a microwave, but if it happened it was a rare incident due to the lack of firsthand stories.

Peace to you.

[fishnfla]

35. Is Hanoi Jane an urban myth too?

lets set aside the spitting for now because it is parsing out the bigger picture. Maybe it is an urban legend. Lets toss it out with the myth that all VN vets were drunks and drug addicts too. ( There is a post over in the lounge right now with the words; 'my father, like so many other VN veterans, was an alcoholic...' I mean: got a link?)

Do you think what Jane Fonda did supported our troops? Hell even she now admits it was wrong! Or war protesters waving the NVA battle flags at protests, to me that was giving aid and support to the enemy!

They may have felt they were doing the right thing, but I think they went about it the wrong way.

We know better now, is all I'm saying. I think you agree

[uppityperson]

37. I've learned that perpetuating the spitting on vets myth is wrong.

I've also learned to not get distracted by side issues when I am making a request about another issue. Peace

[fishnfla]

41. and the issue is: support of our troops by those against the war

Those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Which is why the current protests are nonviolent, featuring American flags, and crosses, and complete support and respect (that includes honor, my friend) for our troops here ,over there, living, and dead.

Casey Sheehan is a hero to me. All of our veterans and soldiers are.

[uppityperson]

42. Exactly. eom

[fishnfla]

45. In the spirit of harmony, my last post

Its ironic that the freepers could benefit from the lessons of our past too.

Now that we've seized the higher ground and the moral authority (Ms Sheehan) what is their response?

1. The "we dont care" chant while the camp casey folks were singing 'God Bless America' Real stupid chant freeps!

2. Whats his name with the Keystone beer and the 12 guage, Larry Mattlege That was so embarrassing his cuz gave up some property for the camp, in a better position too!

3. Larry Northern descrating soldier memorials, running over US flags and crosses. In a pick-up.

They are off to a bad start.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Peace out UP.

[Obamanaut]

44. No, not all are heroes...

Charles Graner is not, Lynndie England is not. Many, if not most, military personnel are wives, husbands, fathers, schoolteachers, sons, daughters, etc. Most are desperately trying to do the right thing so that they will not awaken during the dark hours in a cold sweat having dreamed about their misdeeds. Some, and I hope it's a very small minority, are evil, or do evil things. But no, not all of our veterans and soldiers are heroes. Nor even all of our airmen, marines, or sailors.

[fishnfla]

46. see post 8

already noted.

some bad apples in every bunch


Edit: welcome to DU :hi:

Thanks for your service!

[AuntieM1957]

47. I do not agree!!!!!

Jane Fonda regrets having her picture taken with the Cong - not her protest or stand against the war.

And who the heck are you to get in my or anyone else's face?

What I find offensive about your posts is your rudeness and arrogant discounting of anyone else's viewpoint.

We are each entitled to our separate opinions. I don't happen to agree with your viewpoints, but support your right to them.

But I could really live without the attitude.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

39. I was a college student at the height of the antiwar protests and as much

of a news junkie as I am now, and I never heard any contemporary accounts of soldiers being abused verbally or physically by war protestors.

It is possible that a few young protestors got carried away. I cannot say that no returning vet was ever spat at. But it was never a mass phenomenon. We were the same age as the soldiers, for heaven's sake. They were our high school classmates. We saw them getting shot up on TV (little Pentagon censorship then), and we wanted them out of there and for no more of our contemporaries to go into that hell.

I first heard the stories about Vietnam vets being spat on (told as if there were massive spitting delegations at airports) during the Reagan administration.

[jayfish]

10. I Cant Find Any Passage In The...

constitution where it says "honor the troops" :shrug:

Jay

[uppityperson]

27. The 11th Commandment, given to Mr.bush himself

it is a lame argument, but repetition has given it a life of its own.

[Double T]

12. You CAN Oppose bush, Oppose the 'war', Oppose this corrupt government...

and still be patriotic AND support OUR TROOPS!! The current state of our union is in a shambles thanks to bush and his NEOCON henchmen and it is our (people like those on DU) duty to put this country back together and move it, once again, in the correct direction.

[uppityperson]

18. Very much so.

[Bluerthanblue]

14. Support actually means

'protecting' as well-
What better way to 'protect' our troops, than to demand that their lives not be offered up in vain, to the gods of greed and corporate gain.

from Wikipedia
(DOD) 1. The action of a force that aids, protects, complements, or sustains another force in accordance with a directive requiring such action.

Halburtion 'supports' their mercernaries, some to the tune of upwards of 200,000 dollars, and all the 'gear' that our 'military' soldiers do not have, or have to beg to get. And what is the average pay for a soldier in the US military? 20,000.

You can SERVE with HONOR in a war that is NOT honorable.
You can die, Honorably, for a bad reason. How much more respect, admiration, support and love could a person, or group of people honestly have, other than to DEMAND that no soldier be asked to give their life, or their future well being for a lie, and a cause that is based on evil motives???

i support our troops- i want them home- whole- and with their honor and self worth intact, as much as possible after what they have already endured.

[Greyhound]

19. The only reason(s), OIL, LOOT! n/t

[uppityperson]

20. You mean the only reason for the occupation is oil, loot? nt

[Greyhound]

40. The 'reason' for the war and subsequent occupation

was for oil and for his cronies to loot Iraq and our treasury.

[uppityperson]

43. Got it, thanks.

I wish I would be around in another 50-100 yrs to see what history has to show and books to say about these times we are in now.

[Old_Fart]

53. "One more reason"

Saddam put a hit out on Bush Senior and Junior went after him.

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

21. excellent post.

It is exactly how I feel.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

23. There's a strong implication that non-military people are "lesser"

in some way. "There's NO GREATEST HONOR..." & similar rhetoric. If I say this directly, of course, I get angry denials.

Me, I think an elementary school teacher (and quite a few other lines of work) has a "greatest" honor and "serves" more. But that's just me.

[uppityperson]

25. I think health care providers are heros, as are teachers, and others

Many of us have honorable jobs, help and serve mankind.

[Zhade]

38. I think it's fucking hilarious when I get accused of that.

I come from a military family, Dad did 24 years in USAF Special Operations Command.

I'm a military brat, but I don't do blind loyalty to ANYONE.

[AuntPatsy]

49. It's all talking points programmed into their pea sized brains, don't

sweat it, I don't, I have found when I attempt an honest converstation with an honest wish to understand how they can come up with a valid reason to believe such, they begin sputtering and I kid you not, I can't think of another word more fitting..

I just shake my head since their response is so clearly lacking any true logic to think such things...

[Cocoa]

52. needs context

what did you say that caused the reaction?

i.e., link?