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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 08:31 AM
Original message
Father of 2-month old shoplifts(?) diapers, dies in Walmart parking lot
I apologize if this is a duplicate, if so, then somehow I missed it.

Here's the young father with his own father:

Experts discourage using force in shoplifting cases
The tactics used on suspect who died puts focus on Wal-Mart's policy
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3303871

..

Wal-Mart's corporate office on Tuesday refused to discuss its procedures for detaining and using force against shoplifting suspects in wake of the death of Stacy Clay Driver, 30, on Sunday.

Driver, of Cleveland, was chased by employees after he left the store in the 6600 block of FM 1960 East with items they said he stole. Four employees in the Atascocita Wal-Mart wrestled Driver — who was shirtless at the time — to the ground and struggled with him on the hot pavement for 10 to 30 minutes, witnesses said. He stopped breathing and later died at a Humble hospital.
...
Witherspoon always informs his clients that struggling with combative suspects can lead to death by "positional asphyxiation."

"This can happen when someone is on top of a suspect who's face-down with hands handcuffed behind their back," he said. "This prevents them from breathing, and they suffocate."

and this one:
http://houston.indymedia.org/news/2005/08/42397.php

Charles Portz said he was getting out of his car when he saw a heavy blonde haired man being chased by five people who appeared to be security or store employees. He said he saw them wrestling the man to the ground. "The blacktop was extremely hot," said Portz "He had no shirt on and they wouldn't let him up off the blacktop." He said one of the men had Driver in a chokehold and had his knee in the back of his neck as the men tried to subdue him. "He kept trying to get up and they kept pushing him back down," Portz said.

According to Portz, Driver began to plead with them men. "He's begging, 'Please call an ambulance, let me up, do something, I'm gonna die," said Portz. He said the loss prevention employees called the police more than once, but another bystander called for an ambulance after realizing Driver was in trouble. Portz said he eventually began to plead with the Walmart employees. "I told them, this guy doesn't look like he's breathing," Portz said, "They said, 'He's all right." He says he continued to plead with the men, pointing out that the man's fingernails were turning gray. "They said he's just high on something," adding, "They just kept him pinned down for twenty minutes or more until the ambulance came." He said he believed Driver was dead when the ambulance left with him, but he was not certain.

The store employees could not have known that the witness who was pleading with them to let Driver get up from the hot pavement was a high profile Houston attorney, from the Portz and Portz law firm. He said after the man was handcuffed he continued trying in vain to persuade the Walmart employees to allow him to get up, even pointing out that a second pair of cuffs could be used to attach the ones already on Driver to a nearby truck trailer. "The problem is they kept him down on the blistering concrete with no shirt on," Portz reiterated. He said law enforcement arrived at about the same time as the ambulance.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
1. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. That's sick.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. I thought so too.
What was the need to say that, I wonder?
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Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #5
84. HEY PEOPLE! LIGHTEN UP.!
It's a serious topic and statement, but:

Hypno Toad's been around here for a long time, and has had many great posts. It's fine to disagree, but some of the posts below are going way to far, IMHO.

Everybody has a bad day now and then.

Peace.

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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #84
87. Sorry, but I can't sympathize with someone who views someone else
as worth less than a pack of diapers, because they LOOK like the "sort of jerk" that would pick on this person in high-school.

Thats no damned excuse. Being picked on, does not give you a blank check to say any kind of crap you want, and not be called on it.
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GCP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #84
90. He went too far
And I'm not lightening up on him.
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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #90
141. I missed it
Edited on Sun Aug-21-05 11:48 AM by DS1
but am not suprised to see who posted it
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XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #141
162. See post #76.
...
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GCP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #141
175. Here ya go
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smbolisnch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #84
93. Lighten up?!?! Tell that to the baby of the dead man.
I don't give a flying shit how long he has been a member here. :eyes:
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #93
101. Hey lighten up. The poster was picked on by this "sort of jerk".
The man deserved to be tried, sentenced, and executed by Wal-Mart employees.

After all. He's the "sort of jerk" that would "beat the snot" out of the poster back in highshcool.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #84
103. I appreciate those words, TYJ.
People do have bad days and say things that they would never say on a normal day. Thanks for sticking up for a fellow DUer. Its nice to see, especially given the last few weeks around here.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #84
114. It's still disgusting
Why no comments about the police behavor huh? That's what is gross! The man tried to tell them he was dying!!!!!! THEY DID NOTHING!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #84
119. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. What is the purpose of this comment?
Seems rather inappropriate.
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converted_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #1
13. WTF? n/t
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China_cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #1
14. The penalty in court for shoplifting
would NOT be death.

Much as the Walton family would like it to be.

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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #1
15. If Someone Was Holding You Down, Handcuffed to Hot Tarmac
You might have issues with that as well.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #15
188. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
DefenseLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #1
16. No offense
but if you are getting satisfaction from someone getting killed because you have bad memories from high school, you ought to see somebody about it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #1
19. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
smbolisnch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #1
22. Whoa...
A little bit out of line, I think.
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XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #1
27. Huh?
...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
34. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #1
38. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #1
50. THIS IS THE FACE OF THE BUSH ECONOMY AND YOU SCORN HIM?
Ever read Les Miserables?
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XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #50
53. And it's an alleged shoplifing.
I don't believe what Wal-Mart says to justify its insanity.

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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #50
105. You don't know this guy's story...
It's always wrenching to hear that someone steals diapers.. but you have no idea what his actual story is or why he was stealing them. I'm not saying this fellow was doing drugs or spending his money on drugs, but sadly... in other cases like this the money was spent on other things and the necessities are often shoplifted. You just can't make that call and automatically say he's a victim of Bush's economy.
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XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #105
120. This is exactly why this needs to be sorted out
in court properly.

Not by security guards in the parking lot on hot pavement.

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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #120
148. or by a bunch of people on the Internet. n/t
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XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #148
151. It's a discussion board.
We're discussing it, as are you.

:shrug:
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #151
153. Some are also making judgements....
as to absolute guilt and innocence based on hearsay. Do you have the right to do that? Of course!

Can it make one look downright silly in the long run? Of course!
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XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #153
155. Of course.
I read on another post here that you are sick. I'm sorry about that and I hope you feel better soon, but it's still a discussion board, we're discussing it, some here may or may not look silly, and you're free to point that out.

Where am I making judgments on absolute guilt and innocence on hearsay? I have stated that this needs to be worked out in court. A man is still dead.

I, too, believe in the eyes of the law, which is what I am advocating.

If he did shoplift, this is an overreaction. If he did not shoplift, then our country is even more over the top than I thought.

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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #155
157. Thanks for the concern about me not feeling well.
Also, I don't disagree with anything you wrote. Take care!
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XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #157
160. You're welcome.
...
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #105
142. It's called giving the murdered parent the benefit of the doubt.
Because the WalMart security force did NOT.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #1
58. You know, as I gay person I resent when someone treats me with
prejudice so I try not to practice it.
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #1
75. Maybe you needed the snot beat out of you.
If not then, you do now.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #1
76. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
devinsgram Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #1
79. Please, that remark was not necessary
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Pepperbelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
89. so the death penalty is ...
appropriately administered by Wal-Mart employees for shoplifting because someone whom the victim reminds you of once accosted you at school?

Is that REALLY what you're saying?
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #89
96. Speaking of which, the incident sounds like MURDER to me. n/t
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #96
116. It is murder
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tilsammans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
108. And by the way . . .
. . . it's "graduate FROM high school."



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the_spectator Donating Member (932 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #108
185. This was murder -
but I can't help resist pointing out that it isn't realy "graduate high school" OR "graduate FROM high school" -- correctly, it's "WAS graduated from high school."

You don't graduate, the school graduates you!

...freeze! Grammar Police!
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #1
128. Geeeez . . .
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Missy M Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
2. This story is so disturbing. The death of a man for some ...
diapers. I am not saying it is right to be shoplifting because it is totally wrong but some people have little or no money and they are desperate. To have Mr. Driver subjected to that torture and die is surely a higher crime than shoplifting diapers for your newborn. I hope the store employees are prosecuted.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #2
26. At any point in the process, Mr. Driver...
could have changed the outcome of this event.
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geomon666 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. Yeah, all he had to do was stop breathing
Oh that's right he did.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Well...that's callous.
He could have NOT shoplifted. He could have NOT walked out of the store. He could have NOT continued to struggle. At three moments he made very conscious decisions.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. and none of that justifies what they did to him
he wasn't threatening them physically. there are ways to deal with people who do things such as shoplift and killing them should never be it in our society.

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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #32
55. I agree with your sentiment.
I just want to propose that the responsibility might be apportioned a little bit more evenly than is being done on this thread.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #55
62. it's a blaming the victim type argument
because even assmuming he shoplifted he did not deserve what happened to him.

and i don't think anyone is saying shoplifting was ok or didn't deserve punishment.

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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #62
65. I believe in the eyes of the law....
Edited on Sun Aug-21-05 10:45 AM by tx_dem41
Walmart was the victim of the alleged crime (we, here at DU, actually know very little about what happened). Mr. Driver also might have been a victim of an alleged crime, but in the state of Texas, the law gives great leeway on using force to stop a crime on your property.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #65
78. your life is worth less than DIAPERS
ic

peace
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #78
82. Nope, I hate the law.
I'm making opinions as to the possible outcome of any prosecution of the employees.
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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #82
95. You are contradicting yourself.
Your previous post said: "I believe in the eyes of the law...."


Which is it? Do you hate the law or do you believe in it? :shrug:
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #95
98. Don't chop my quote in half or I'll start calling you Drudge
:)

The quote you so uncleverly parsed in no way said that I believed in the law.
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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #98
106. Call me whatever you like.
I personally am not into name calling. I am merely pointing out, and not half-quoting at all, what you said. Your post clearly stated:

I believe in the eyes of the law....

It seems you may have a bit of a problem admitting you were contradicting yourself. :shrug:
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #95
115. No....the quote said.....
..."I believe in the eyes of the law....Walmart was the victim of the alleged crime (we, here at DU, actually know very little about what happened). Mr. Driver also might have been a victim of an alleged crime, but in the state of Texas, the law gives great leeway on using force to stop a crime on your property."

What's worse, name calling or open dishonesty?

That's about the clumsiest example of parsing I've seen in a long time. Thanks for the chuckle.
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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #115
123. Glad to oblige your chuckle.
You sound like an attorney losing an argument. I hate the smell of desperation this early on a Sunday.

However you try to mix it up, you still are contradictory. I am in no way being dishonest, openly or otherwise.

Believing in the law and hating the law is, quite simply, contradictory.

You are merely looking for an endless argument to justify your own statement. Good luck with that.

:nopity:
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #123
129. Sheesh...I can't believe I'm going on with this....
Sir...what are the "eyes of the law"? How would one believe in the "eyes of the law". The phrase would make no sense if not followed by what the person believes the perception of the law ("the eyes"...get it?) is.

Sorry, that you never have come across this simple phrase. I can't help you at this point. Maybe someone can.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #129
139. i can


peace
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #139
158. They bask in the attention!
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #78
138. yes if you also steal a gun while you're at it
if you must commit crime, don't be seen shoplifting and carrying weapons thank you

read the article again

ain't just diapers
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #138
145. he had nothing on him when they strangled him to death but sunglasses
fyi

peace
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #65
156. yeah, well
the state of texas is fucked up, as we all know :eyes:
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #62
184. Punishment is NEVER the right or responsibility of the alleged victim.
Punishment is meted out only after a fair trial and sentencing in a court of law. What about this don't people understand?

Oh, that's right. Vigilante justice is now ok in the Fascist States of America.
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geomon666 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. Desperate times...
Not struggle? They had him in a chokehold. Everyone in that position is going to struggle because you can't breathe.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. And shirtless on hot pavement, too.
The man was struggling for his life. :(
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smbolisnch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #30
44. I am sure he was desperate to do this in the first place
and panicked when he was attacked. What a nasty, calloused reaction. :eyes:
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DefenseLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #30
61. So if you are pulled over for speeding
and the cop decides that 45 in a 30 deserves a bullet to the head, that will be okay because you made a "very conscious decision" to speed? I can recall numerous times that I have left a store with my purchase, only to have the "tag alarm" thing go off in error as I left. I suppose rather than looking at my receipt they could have killed me.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #61
74. Please point out where I said it was "okay" that he died?
Edited on Sun Aug-21-05 10:54 AM by tx_dem41
I know defense lawyer's are supposed to be good at putting word's in people's mouths, but you could have at least been a little more subtle.

Also, apparently you were a witness to this incident. Can you tell us more about it? You see, we're trying to set up a kangaroo court here on this thread and convict people with hearsay evidence we have learned through a newspaper article. I admitted my mistake in assuming that Mr. Driver committed the alleged crime. But, on the other side, the kangaroo court is gearing up. Guess you can't be the defense lawyer on this one. Too bad.
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ContraBass Black Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #30
71. Has it been confirmed that he was shoplifting?
I would think that he couldn't stop struggling when the got him shirtless on hot pavement.
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mountainvue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #71
163. Thank you. I was just going to ask the
same thing. Let's see what Wally World has on their surveillance tapes, if anything.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #71
165. Thank you. I've been in a chokehold. It's sad that the obvious
needs pointed out on a message board of intelligent adults, but alas, sometimes it must.

The only way I managed to survive is by struggling, and I'm a 5'7", 140 pound woman who got extraordinarily lucky.
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GCP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #30
81. Perhaps he was burning on the HOT tarmac
You know how it feels in bare feet - imagine that on your bare chest and maybe then YOU'D struggle mightily to get off the ground.
Sheesh :banghead:
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #30
183. If my skin were being SEARED like a steak while I was being held
down on hot pavement, I sure as hell would be struggling. He was being BURNED. I call that torture. And then to forcibly hold him down while he is being burned..............no wonder he up and died.

The punishment fits the crime, I suppose, in this new fascist world we live in. But I thought DUers had a little more compassion than the fascists.
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bread_and_roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #26
42. And so what? He deserved to die? The employee actions were justified?
The employees could also have "changed the outcome" simply by using common sense and ordinary practice - get the liscence and call the police.
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XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #42
46. Exactly.
Lots of changed outcomes here, and it is an alleged shoplifting at this point.

Unless now we get to do extrajudicial executions for any crime, minor or major.

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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #42
52. Where did I say he deserved to die?
Please don't put words in my mouth. Its dishonest on your part.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #52
72. you claimed it was his own fault
since 'at any point he could have changed the outcome' though i see NO evidence that was the case.

peace
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #72
77. I never claimed it was his OWN fault.
Edited on Sun Aug-21-05 10:57 AM by tx_dem41
(implying its ONLY his fault). C'mon Bpil...a little more honesty on your part would do a world of wonders.

If the alleged crime did occur, did he not have the faculties to actually not commit it? Did he not have the faculties to decide to NOT walk out the door?
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #77
83. "At any point in the process, Mr. Driver..."
could have changed the outcome of this event."

those are your words

peace
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #83
85. Yes....we all have the power to change outcomes.
Edited on Sun Aug-21-05 11:03 AM by tx_dem41
That is separate from apportioning blame for that outcome. I don't see the point. The employees also had that same power obviously (do I really have to say that even?...seems obvious). Everyone seems to be concentrating on the latter and not the former. I'm looking at them both.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #85
91. i guess he wanted to die, then...
"At any point in the process, Mr. Driver... could have changed the outcome of this event."

using your 'logic'

peace
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #91
99. Maybe using your's....certainly not mine.
Peace.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #99
126. they're your words
not mine

peace
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #126
132. We'll agree to disagree on that.
Peace.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #132
146. here is the link...
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #26
59. That is not true. He might have not shoplifted in the first place
but once the chase was on, he probably would have been held down regardless. Either way, the outcome was inappropriate and inhumane.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #59
63. You bring up a good point NSMA....
Everyone on this thread, including me, is making pronouncements about an event we know hardly anything about.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #63
67. Actually, this story was in LBN over a week ago
what we do know based on witness accounts is that the guy claimed he was in physical distress and they did not let up until he was dead.

We also know he was not armed. We also know that none of the people that detained him were police officers and we also know that he was shirtless and left to lie on a hot pavement.

If I were interviewing the family (survivors) in my office based solely on that information, it appears to be a wrongful death and I would take the case. ;)

(perhaps the only other piece of information I would want is a death certificate indicating the cause of death, but I would ask for an autopsy as well)
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #67
70. Do you practice law in the state of Texas?
Are you familiar with the leeway state law gives property owners in such situations?
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #70
86. I doubt petty theft is considered felonious in even Texas
The statutes in Texas pertain to death as a result of felonious act.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #86
94. does that mean
tx_dem41 may not be as well versed in tx law as he leads us to believe :shrug:

thx for the info :toast:

peace
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #94
100. He might know Texas law, but there is a huge difference between
reading about the law and practicing it.

Can you imagine the public policy resulting from allowing business owners to kill people for petty theft?
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #100
110. This "Texas law" I hear about, why so different from the rest of US?
"It's a whole 'nother country" they say, and they seem to mean it. "We do things different down here." At least most Texas democrats on here don't defend that mindset.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #110
125. And neither do I, which is why I said in post #82...
"I hate the law". Thorough reading is always a good thing.

I'm just trying to inform people not from here, what the prosecution of these employees would face. Its a stacked deck, and it isn't pretty.

And, by the way, why don't you address me directly, the next time you want to accuse me of something? It's the honorable thing to do.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #125
130. Do you do anything on here other than bitch out posters?
I know you have a "life outside of DU", you mention that every five minutes, but it seems you are actively looking to pick fights lately.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #130
134. I appreciate the concern.
When I am misquoted, I bitch. Should I just allow it to happen?

That said, I'm sick this morning, and a little surly. So sorry for the short temper.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #134
136. Chicken soup and bedrest for you.
Hope you are feeling better soon. :)
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #136
143. Thanks, Bluebear. n/t
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #100
167. Six year olds shot for stealing a Snickers.
It sounds flip, but I'm absolutely serious that that is where this type of thinking can go.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #59
154. A witness has a totally different story for police from the store manager'
Edited on Sun Aug-21-05 12:14 PM by Judi Lynn
From this article:
When witness Charles Portz saw the employees struggling with Driver on the parking lot pavement, he did not see any of the alleged stolen items but the sunglasses.
(snip)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


I posted stories on this in the earlier thread.I'm not too skilled on DU searches, and didn't find it, yet, for direct quotes from that time, but I clearly remember reading store employees who also were outside watching this disaster ran into the store and brought out a blanket to put under his chest. The manager WOULDN'T ALLOW IT.

One of the articles said the man kept crying out the pavement was so hot, please let him up, and they kept his face slammed into the asphalt. He was trying to push up to get his skin above the burning surface, and finally stopped breathing.

You're absolutely right, there is NO QUESTION ABOUT IT.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here's another article:
Witnesses say Wal-Mart security guards went too far
08:26 PM CDT on Monday, August 8, 2005

By Jason Whitely / 11 News

More witnesses spoke out, upset at what they saw unfold Sunday in a Wal-Mart parking lot. A suspected shoplifter died outside the Atascocita store in the 6600 block of 1960 in northeast Houston.

The alleged shoplifter was handcuffed and held facedown in the parking lot.
By the time sheriff's deputies arrived at the Wal-Mart, it was too late.

Stacy Driver, a 31-year-old man suspected of shoplifting, was dead in the parking lot after store security chased and tackled him to the ground Sunday.

"His shirt was ripped from his back," said attorney Jim Lindeman. "He was knocked to the ground. A witness stated he was held to the ground for at least 20 minutes."

Attorney Charlie Portz told 11 News what he witnessed. "The blacktop was extremely hot. He had no shirt on. They wouldn't let him up off the blacktop."

Another witness said customers were upset and pleading with store security to pick Driver up off the hot parking lot. But apparently they didn't until paramedics arrived and started CPR.
(snip/...)
http://www.khou.com/news/local/stories/khou050807_gj_allegedshoplifterdies.4fe9d3a9.html

On edit: Here's the first thread started by baldguy, with good information supplied on this event:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1686705#1687347



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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #154
164. thanks for the LINKS - good info n/t
:toast:

peace
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #26
64. Actually that's not true. Trying to tell them he was going to die
Edited on Sun Aug-21-05 10:41 AM by lostnfound
'Please call an ambulance, let me up, do something, I'm gonna die," said Portz.
"He said after the man was handcuffed he continued trying in vain to persuade the Walmart employees to allow him to get up, even pointing out that a second pair of cuffs could be used to attach the ones already on Driver to a nearby truck trailer. "
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #26
68. how do you know?
gotta link?

sounds like the walmart thugs were unresponsive to all in the OP.

peace
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
3. I used to live in Spring Tx, i know right where that Wal-mart and it
doesn't surprise me.
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Don Claybrook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. Me too. Used to live in Atascocita
I hope they try the little thuglets for manslaughter.
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scarletlib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
4. This fall a movie version of "Oliver Twist" is to be released.
It's not a musical version. I think we are fast approaching an Oliver Twist economy/social society. A society where the poor will be killed when they are forced to steal in order to acquire the basic necessities of survival. Social Darwinism exposed by Dickens in this novel. His novels did have an impact on the British society of the time.

I wonder if the movie will make a dent in the consciousness of the mass of people in this country.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
7. Murder.
I HATE Wal-Mart!
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
9. Will Wal-Mart give these jerks a medal
for helping the bottom line by offing a shoplifter?

Personally, I hope the police charge the people for a crime. Yes, you can detain a suspected shoplifter, but you can't apply lethal force-at least not yet. With Bush in charge, anything could happen.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #9
168. I'd like toi think Wal-Mart's asset protection bonus would be offset
by a nasty wrongful death suit.

Having been in retail, I know it's a common practice to reward employees for recovering "stolen" items.
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
11. I would say Man Slaughter charges, at least, are in order here.
Security personal, either real or the Rent-a-Cop variety are trained in how to subdue a person. Isn't part of that training on what not to do & why?
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Clintmax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
12. This REALLY pisses me off!
Each one of the employees who were involved should be charged with manslaughter! It is one thing to apprehend shoplifters. It's quite another to kill them! I haven't set foot in a Wal-Mart in a LONG time and I never will again!
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
17. This is so sad and the Walmart folks so wrong.
:cry:
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mcscajun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
18. Bastards! I hope that with a witness from such a prominent law firm
Edited on Sun Aug-21-05 09:40 AM by mcscajun
that this become the mother of all lawsuits.

Another case of poorly-trained idiots playing cop, and a man is dead...over shoplifting!?!?!

:wtf:


I got so mad reading this story...I wound up making this:

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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Fabulous logo!!
You're right that the witness could be the clincher in this.

Love the logo! You should make up some bumper stickers, they'd sell well.

:toast: Julie
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mcscajun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #20
37. Hmmm...perhaps I'll do that.
I haven't properly explored the uses of CafePress.com yet. :)
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. Good for you and a GREAT pic!
:thumbsup: :applause: I'm stealing it! :D

:grr:
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mcscajun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #23
36. You may as well...your post helped me get there.
:)
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buddysmellgood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
21. Why do these freaks have to touch anybody? Why not surround him with
cameras and take a bunch of pictures of him. Take pictures of his car and license plate and then let the police sort it out. Is there ANYTHING in a a Walmart worth hurting anyone over?
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XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #21
48. 'Cause that would be common sense.
...
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LeftyFingerPop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
24. Walmart
Hello, I am a newly registered user to this forum, although I have been lurking here for quite sometime. This thread on the Walmart death has prompted me to register.

This incident is stark proof that this country is losing its collective mind. The guy steals some diapers so he is held down on hot tarmac until he dies. He is held down by some individuals who are most certainly bigger assholes than the victim ever was.

HE DIED, OVER SOME DIAPERS!!! What have we become? Where are we going?

The entire mindset of this country is slowly changing for the worse. This is so sad in so many different ways I cannot even express my anger over this.....
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #24
31. Welcome to DU philboy...
I agree with you completely. This story upsets me on so many levels I'm having a hard time responding.

This is a case I'm going to want to follow up on. I'm curious as to how the courts will respond.

BTW, I'm glad you finally decided to register. Welcome.
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LeftyFingerPop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #31
39. Thank you Gloria
Thank you for the welcome Gloria...I am still trying to figure out how to use this forum, so I hope people will have patience with me LOL.

Have a nice Sunday. :)
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #39
43. You're doing just fine. My biggest recommendation...
If something is unclear, just ask. I like asking in the Lounge because people are extremely nice and helpful. They have a unique sense of humor too as you probably already know since you've been reading the forum for a while.

:hi:
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LeftyFingerPop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #43
51. thanks Gloria, i will check out the lounge n/t
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mcscajun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #24
40. Welcome to DU!
You've got it pegged.

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LeftyFingerPop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #40
47. Thank you
Thank you very much mcscajun. I feel a certain kinship with the members of this forum. While I certainly do not agree with each and every thing that is posted here, the discussion seems very refreshing and rational.

I have tried posting my beliefs and concerns on several other sites, only to be charged with being a "scumbag liberal".

Seems to be a typical neo-con response in this country....if you cannot argue the facts. go for the personal attacks LOL.

Have a nice Sunday.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #47
57. Follow the Leader.
....'if you cannot argue the facts. go for the personal attacks..' It's all they've got. Welcome to DU. :hi:
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LeftyFingerPop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #57
60. thanks blue state....
Thank you blue state.....you good people may actually bring me out of my catatonic, drooling depression over the current state of affairs in this great country of ours. LOL

Stay strong and have a great day.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #60
73. I'm not drooling yet, however, there's still three years to go.
:evilgrin:
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #24
170. Welcome to DU! We all are beleiving that the sountry ahs lost
it's collective mind.

At least DU is a relatively safe place to try to figure it out.

I like to think of this as a huge neighborhood bar. Welcome in, I'm happy to offer you a :toast:!
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
25. disgusting , as if we needed another reason to hate Wall Mart
there are so many other ways they could have dealt with this guy rather than physically assualting him.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
29. thugs
I'm livid

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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
41. This is murder
Manslaughter is accidental, this was intentional given the warnings they received.

If the corporation condoned this action thru training, then the family has a full right them as well.

L-
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converted_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #41
69. Exactly. He was murdered over a 5.00- 10.00 pack of freaking diapers.
How fucking pathetic. It wasn't like he stole something to sell for his crack habit, he was stealing diapers for his baby. WTF is our country coming to?
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #69
80. don't be too sure
Edited on Sun Aug-21-05 11:00 AM by pitohui
there's a thriving black market in my area where diapers can be traded for crack & they are often easier to shoplift than cigarettes

don't know why texas would be exempt from this practice

discovery is going to show walmart has been repeatedly ripped off by crackhead shoplifters & has reason to believe shoplifters of this product are heavy drug users & thus dangerous

i agree security needs better training in handling persons who are big & can be on drugs or in drug withdrawal

but let's not kid ourselves this person wasn't viewed as potentially dangerous to the security crew

hypnotoad's comment may be viewed as crass but if your min-wage job required you to apprehend a man of that size & potential strength, you might not be too quick to release the man just because he claimed he feels ill, people who steal have also been known to lie
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converted_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #80
88. B.S.
Okay, let's for a second say your right and he was stealing diapers to support his crack habit. A five, ten dollar pack of diapers is worth a man's life? Give me a freaking break. How can you argue your case with a straight face?
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geomon666 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #88
97. LMAO!
Oh man, my face hurts from laughing so hard.
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converted_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #97
140. And your laughing at???
What's so funny about a guy losing his life over a pack of diapers? I don't think it's funny, I think it's sad. I find it even sadder that so many "progressives" are seem to think this guy got what he deserved. Man, our country is lost.
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geomon666 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #140
178. Easy
I was laughing at the thought of the guy stealing diapers to support his crack habit. It was absurd enough to have me rolling on the floor. Believe me, I'm just as incensed as you about Wal-Mart employees killing this guy.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #88
117. if you're unable to see 2 sides of an argument
you must live in a scary world because you must be in a constant state of fear that people are strangling other people for no reason

these people can be scary when it's yr job to stop them

they don't know if it's just one bag of diapers, if it's part of a professional or regular route, if the person is armed, all they really know is they have a criminal who is very large in size who must be secured

the normal person caught shoplifting $5 worth of merch doesn't react like this, naturally, they have got to assume the individual has got more contraband on em, maybe more stolen goods, maybe drugs, maybe a weapon

i dunno but step in the other guy's shoes a minute

if you or yours had to secure large, beefy men for a living all day long you'd have a different perspective

the diaper gangs are very well organized in my area, hell, they have a van that comes around to deliver the diapers, just like a legal operation only way way cheaper

if you think you might be dealing w. organized crime, you might be a little over-zealous too

every story has two sides, we've heard one

if it was abt $5 worth of merch, why not borrow the $$ from his dad, it ain't abt $5, over the course of a yr it's abt thousands of dollars

now my walmart is smart, they pay to keep a marked patrol car & leo on site at all times, maybe they should all

people who think the family just won powerball are in for a wake-up call, if you want to sue somebody, walmart is definitely not your target, they have a very aggressive policy toward lawsuits
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geomon666 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #117
121. I think once the handcuffs were applied they should've let him up.
Don't you think?
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #121
127. this discussion is intellectually dishonest since he had a GUN

either most people here didn't read the article or most people are focusing on the diapers rather than the gun he shoplifted in the same incident for political reasons

that is pure dishonesty

if you steal a weapon, yeah, good chance you're going to get taken down

no pity here

IF the employees felt they could safely allow him to get up after securing him in handcuffs, yeah, they should have, but maybe under te circumstances they didn't feel safe

if the man had somehow started popping random BBs into guards & shoppers we'd be yelling abt that too

looks like to me they had no good choices

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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #127
147. The eyewitness didn't see anything but the sunglasses in parking lot.
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XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #127
159. Once handcuffed, with gun,
should they have let him up?

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converted_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #127
169. Read post # 67, the guy was not armed. n/t
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converted_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #117
135. It was a bag of diapers. Period.
It was a bag of diapers. I own a business, I would not dispatch goons over a pack of diapers.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #117
172. "Parked patrol car." Many retailers hire actual off-duty policemen.
I don't care where those diapers were going to end up--no fucking excuse for this.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #80
171. If my minimum wage job required me to do that, I'd look for a
better one--perhaps at Jack in the Box.

There is NO excuse, whether there is a black market for such things otr not.

If you get minimum wage and can ignore the pleas of a dying man, I have no words.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #41
92. At a minimum, it's wrongful death
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Copperred Donating Member (554 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
45. Hope this takes a big chunk out of Wal-mart...

Walmart probably has Murder Insurance....

Those employees should be tried and put to jail. Wal-Mart has best just pay up.....



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smbolisnch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #45
49. It won't.
If some of the ahem, "progressives", on DU can play it off as how he was just a thug and a thief, can you imagine what the general brainwashed public will say about him? Scary times we are living in...
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #45
66. Bigger Than PowerBall
Hate to say it that way but I susupect the payout on this one is going to beat the record PowerBall payout.
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converted_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
54. People are starting to crack, and I fear that things are only going to get
worse. There have been a record amounts of gas drive offs in our area, and shoplifting is getting so bad that you can't even take a diaper bag or a backpack into a store, because they think you are going to steal. Things are only get worse, people can not afford the most basic of necessities. Mind you I'm not excusing the behavior, I'm just saying things are getting bad, and people are turning desperate. The sad thing is that there isn't really any place to turn for help around here, unless you are willing to have a strong dose of religion tossed down your throat. (Faith-based initiatives)
So many of my hubby's friends have lost their jobs, and it really is sad. I try to help anyone I can if they need help, but I'm quickly learning I can not save the world, and it sucks.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
56. delete
Edited on Sun Aug-21-05 10:32 AM by nothingshocksmeanymo
posted in wrong spot
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
102. Being on hot pavement won't kill you... this is a wierd story.
I will delay judgement until toxicology is done on the man, as many illegal drugs have contributed to death in those types of struggles.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #102
104. From an eyewitness:
"...one of the men had Driver in a chokehold and had his knee in the back of his neck as the men tried to subdue him."
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #104
113. I think they should outlaw the subduing of shoplifters by untrained emp.
I mean, since when are Walmart employees trained in physical restraint? Follow the guy, get his license plate, call 911, but for God's sake.. wrestling these people down like a bad movie is wrong. Yes.. the guy was ABSOLUTELY wrong for fighting with them, when he should have stopped and given up. He was allegedly committing a crime. But to have a vigilante of retail clerks holding him onto the pavement is unbelievably wrong and wrought with dangers.
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geomon666 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #102
107. More likely the chokehold rather than the pavement.
Which is why cops don't do that anymore. People were dying.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #102
109. He wasn't just lying on the pavement. Didn't you read it?
They had him pinned down.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #102
111. Ever hear of heat stroke?
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mackdaddy Donating Member (177 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #102
122. Just being face down with arms pinned behind can kill someone..
This happened to a suspect in custody who had his hands cuffed and was left face down on the floor for 10 or 20 minutes in Columbus Ohio a few years ago. It puts pressure on both the heart and lungs in this position, and the police are now trained to put suspects on their side.

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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
112. That's so disgusting
That is no way to treat someone even if they did something wrong. They killed him!
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
118. A perspective seems necessary here. If it is OK to pin a man down...
Edited on Sun Aug-21-05 11:30 AM by rasputin1952
after allegedly stealing a $10 bag of diapers, and keeping him on the ground until he expires from "positional asphyxiation", would it be alright for the stockholders to drag a CEO out of his office and string him up for stealing 10's of millions of dollars?

What these people did was wrong. It is as simple as that. There were many ways to deal with this situation, and the most disastrous was chosen. Who would not struggle if shirtless and being burned by the hot tarmac? Was it necessary to keep him on the ground after he was subdued and handcuffed?

This is a situation that illustrates what we have become. A father of a 2 month old child is killed trying to take care of that child. I don't know if he had the $ for the diapers, but I know, if I had known he needed the $10 for those diapers, I would have given it to him, if I would have had it. People will condemn this man for stealing, and stealing IS wrong, but would we condemn a man for taking a loaf of bread to avoid starving? It appears to me, this was a crime driven by necessity, not greed. Stealing to enhance ones riches is this world is different than stealing out of perceived necessity.

The CEO who steals 10's of millions lives in a fantastic house with many luxuries. This man found an early grave, while attempting to keep his child clean.

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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #118
124. the man had just shoplifted a damn gun
read the story again

it wasn't abt diapers

the man had a weapon

sheesh, no wonder the employees were aggressive

5 gets you 10 in discovery we'll find out this wonderful human being wasn't even living w. the baby

the diaper, gun, & sunglasses were stolen for quick re-sale or to facilitate future thefts

my verdict, crackhead

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geomon666 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #124
133. Yeah, a lethal BB gun
Store managers told investigators that Driver entered the store with items marked with a stickers showing he had purchased them, but then he walked into a restroom and placed the stickers on different items — a BB gun, diapers, sunglasses and a pack of BBs — before walking out.

I'm sure the BB gun was lying next to him too. :eyes:
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #124
149. I stand corrected, the man stole a BB Gun and some BB's as well
as the sunglasses. While I cannot see where a BB gun would threaten me to any great extent, soem people might digress.

The way the story is written, it can easily be implied that the man was attempting to get diapers out of the store for his child; that was, and is my first and subsequent reaction. Until more is known about just 'why' this guy took the other items, I will withhold judgement on them. A BB gun is a strange thing to steal for an adult.
Most shoplifters will steal items not out of necessity, but out of greed and the thrill of 'getting away' with something. Few people shoplift food, they shoplift small items such as lipstick, mascara, lighters, candy etc. Some do take high end items, but it is the case for 'perceived necessity' that I make as per the diapers. However, I will concede that the diapers may well have been a ruse to steal the BB gun and sunglasses. In any case, this was, I will admit a premeditated crime. If he was takinig in stickers for previously purchased merchandise, this guy was fully aware that he was committing a crime.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #124
174. Have you ever seen a crackhead? Food and muscle seldom
go hand in hand with crack.

In fact, crack tends to wither the body, not make it stronger.

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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #118
173. Bravo! Excellent point of view. nt
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
131. This might be a first, a manslaughter indictment against employees in Texa
Uusally if store employees claim theft, they are allowed to use any kind of bodily force in Texas, however the fact that the person killed was white and the witness was an attorney and the other details of the case make me suspect that the DA in this case will get pressure to actually indict the employees for some type of homicide.

Please keep us informed.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #131
137. don't worry abt it, he stole a gun
ain't no way you'll ever get manslaughter conviction out of that

dude was armed

he was a bad guy, sorry, it's too bad he was killed & never had a chance to turn his life around, but make no mistake, he was a bad guy

too many on the internets spout off w.out actually reading the news report in question


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geomon666 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #137
144. It was a BB gun, does that not compute.
And the only people to even mention that there was a BB gun were the Store Managers.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #137
150. And eyewitness didn't see anything but sunglasses.
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
152. I've never shoplifted so much as a peanut, BUT...
I'm beginning to feel like shoplifting is not the terrible sin I once thought it was. Particularly if it's for something like diapers.

When a stodgy middle-aged lady like me thinks something like THAT, society is on the verge of crumbling, I suspect.
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
161. i hope the victim's family
sues the living bejeesus out of walmart! I HATE WALMART!!! :grr:
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
166. Here's the thread mentioned by nsma. Much more info. available here:
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #166
186. Holy s**t; the story you quoted says they had him kneed while
handcuffed.

Sue their sorry minimum wage or whatever asses and of course sue the f**k out of Wal-Mart.

Duers--read that thread; especially you WM apologists. Ugh.
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World Traveller Donating Member (58 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
176. He had switched price tags - not shoplifted (I live in Houston)
I live in Houston and know that area well. Houston Chronicle ran a long article about it. About 3/4's of way thru article it said employees had alerted security because he had switched price tags for one of items he bought. I hope the family sues Walmart and gets a lot of money. This incident is inexcusable and Walmart's training for security guards is negligent. Based on Walmart's reaction, it sounds like they think they are above the law, maybe some political pals will pull a few strintgs for them. Case bears close watching, it tell us if the law still has any power over corporations.
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Bmongilly Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
177. This is not a first for Wal-Mart
When I was a cab driver, I listened to a story of a man who says that he was approached from behind and slammed to the ground simply because the Wal-Mart employees thought he had stolen something. Turns out he didn't (or at least he claims he didn't) but that he had sustained injuries and that he was suing.

This is called a "take down technique" that if I am correct has been justified by the US Supreme Court. If the employee that is doing the stopping "feels" that the person he or she is trying to take down is a threat if confronted directly, the employee is allowed to simply rush the person from behind and literally slam them face down on the pavement and then sit on them until police arrive.

However, the good thing is that the US Supreme Court ruling did not justify the causing of injuried in the process, so this lawsuit might get millions out of Wal-Mart and cause people to think twice before being a Hulk Hogan wannabe.

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LeftyFingerPop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
179. I'm fed up...fuck Walmart
I have now read through this entire thread again. It seems that some MAY be implying that this individual MAY have deserved what he received because we do not know all of the facts, etc.

Ok, listen, the guy shoplifted, and he was KILLED. Even if he struggled for no reason (which I highly doubt considering his body may have been burning to a crisp).....this is no reason to kill a man. Let's say he was on angel dust or something (doesn't look like he was, but let's just assume this)...this is STILL no reason to KILL a man.

Let's put this into perspective....these were Walmart security people right? I cannot imagine they were very highly trained in medicine and trauma. These idiots let this poor man die. So he stole some diapers, big friggin deal.

LETS ALL REPEAT...KILLING FOR NO REASON IS BAD.....KILLING FOR NO REASON IS BAD....
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geomon666 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #179
180. Not to mention the fact that he was begging for his life.
And they still held him down.
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LeftyFingerPop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
181. and I will tell ya something else...
The more I think about this, the worse it becomes to me.....

If I were a witness, I know the sense of frustration I would have felt if I truly believed this man were dying.

I know how I react in certain situations, and if I truly believed this man were close to death.....I know I would have done my damnest to take out a couple of these security people. Granted, they probably would have knocked me out eventually, but I would have my say on the little nazi's.

I'm sorry, I'm pissed off, I've been thinking about this all day. Fuck walmart.
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sakabatou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
182. Stupid things just keeep on piling on one on top of each other
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
187. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #187
189. Word of advice--read through a trhead before commenting.
No evidence that he stole anything, he was KNEED WHILE HANDCUFFED, these were not professional law enforcement.

Welcome to the party, Sundazys are very good for guests. The barkeeps are pretty sharp on Sunday, bless their busy hearts...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #189
190. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
191. Locking...
This thread has run its course.

I would like to remind everyone
that we do have rules against
personal attacks. If you haven't
done so lately, please re-read
the rules.


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