PARENTS: Please do not bring your children to the DC demonstration.

[benburch]

I have been thinking seriously about this, and it is my opinion that there is a significant chance of police violence against demonstrators when the DC protest happens next month.

Please, people, do not bring your children, especially your small children, to the protest.

Not only does this Administration not care about children in the slightest, but they would likely think that tear-gassing a few or shooting them with beanbags or rubber bullets would discourage further resistance.

[Greeby]

1. To hell with that

These sickos would authorise the use of live rounds

[Imagevision]

101. Anyone have ino whether this protest will be televised?

I mean it's not the 60's!!

[JohnnyBoots]

121. The Revolution will not be televised.

[TahitiNut]

2. Catch 22: Discretion may be spun as intention.

:shrug: Prophecies have a way of becoming self-fulfilling.

[Swamp Rat]

8. That crossed my mind too.

[Solly Mack]

21. that's what I'm thinking

[malta blue]

3. I was planning on it

but you have now given me some concerns. My little is only 6. She is so looking forward to it, I would hate to not bring her. You should have seen her at the vigil on Wednesday. She is an activist in training.

[wakeme2008]

6. Phototags like to take pictures of children with protest

signs :)

[malta blue]

7. Very true

She appeared on the local news the night of the vigil, and so many people took her picture. She was holding her candle and a sign that Distressed American made.

[wakeme2008]

11. Share a pic with DU

I bet she is cute with her candle and sign :)

[malta blue]

15. here you go...

[wakeme2008]

16. Cute girl PLUS I see

around 5 including her pre-teens.

News folks like pics of them.

Thanks for sharing.

[lildreamer316]

44. So let's designate a CONTINGENCY PLAN

or all those with children march in a group; or something. I sure we can figure this out.

[zanne]

4. That's a word to the wise.

I always get nervous when I see little kids at demonstrations. They could get caught in the crossfire if things got ugly.

[wakeme2008]

5. There are Pros and Cons to that

Without children, the Police could get more violent than if there was children around.

The DC Police Dept is not a bad police dept.

[shadowknows69]

10. Its probably not the DC police

that we need to worry about. the potential for psycho freepers exist as does the possiblilty of over zealous SS agents. we're going to be fairly close to the WH so they could turn on the "Threat to National Security" sign whenever they feel like it and break out the new microwave crowd control weapons. in fact i predict we'll see our first field test of them on the 24th.

[wakeme2008]

12. The last thing Rove would want is a hurt bleeding child

think about that.

[shadowknows69]

40. I think their so wrapped up in their own arrogance

and self righteousness that they wouldn't care. they's just have the SS plant a grenade on a kid and call him a liberal extremist. Kent State could happen again en masse make no mistake. This administration makes Nixon look like a teddy bear.

[Imagevision]

83. seriouly? Rove couldn't care less about your bleeding child

you brought him/her it's on YOU!

[shadowknows69]

9. I have to agree

there's too much potential for chaos.

[SeanQuinn]

13. So, Ben, are you saying I shouldn't go to the protest?

All joking aside. Do you think I'd seriously get hurt at 12?

[benburch]

17. At 12 you are likely large enough that a beanbag is unlikley to kill you.

Small children, though, would be especially vulnerable to that sort of impact.

[SeanQuinn]

57. I see where you are coming from. Gotcha.

Thanks for the clarification and the warning to the lil' youngins', Ben.

[benburch]

62. Exactly.

Young men and women can take care of themselves... In another era you'd already have been trained to fight and hunt for your tribe. Babies and small children likely cannot exist in a police riot without serious injury. I think tear gas or pepper spray would be VERY bad for an infant, for example.

[blue sky at night]

14. I wholeheartedly disagree.......

Do you really want us to tell our Children: Its not ok to Protest Dears, you know they may shoot us down. What-the-F kind of message is that?? If this is something worth doing, should we not be willing to sacrifice, should we not dare them to try something? I grew up with protests, it is time to protest, it is time to "teach your children", but then again if you want to shield them from every little bump in life so their lives will be "perfect" then you go right ahead. BTW, you better not drive, you better not swim, you better not breath, they could all GET you!!

[benburch]

19. It is up to you, of course.

The message *I* would impart is that this government is run by dangerous criminals, and taking them down is a job for adults, and that some day this will be YOUR job, too.

[blue sky at night]

33. let me ask you something.......

if they shot down children in the streets, would that reflect worse on them or better? If the Right Wingers are so willing to sacrifice their children in the War, should we not be equally willing to sacrifice ours to end it? In My Opinion, there is not going to be much left to "live" for in this Country if we do not wrest control from these bastards soon. Thanks for the Reply!

[WildEyedLiberal]

128. You're willing to have your kids shot by cops if it hurts Bush?

"If the Right Wingers are so willing to sacrifice their children in the War, should we not be equally willing to sacrifice ours to end it?"

What the fuck?? Your kids' LIVES aren't political pawns for you to manipulate in order to help breed public sentiment against Bush for Christ's sake. The right wing has NO right using its kids as weapons in a war and neither do you. To suggest that you have the right to "sacrifice" another person's life for your own political agenda is disgusting - I don't CARE if it's a right or a left wing agenda. Sacrifice your own damn life if you care to, but it is evil to play Risk with the lives of others who are not capable or prepared to make the decision for themselves (and no, I don't think any kids under age 13 or 14 in this instance are capable of making a decision to die for their country or for a set of ideals).

[blue sky at night]

135. well excuse me..........

My "kids" are all teenagers, and they will indeed make up their own minds, thank you. I don't want them hearing some "Chicken Little" telling them you shouldn't attend a protest. And by the way, loosing your life for the right side is indeed DIFFERENT than for a LIE. When I was Fifteen years old, four "children" did loose their lives in a protest near where I live. It changed my whole life......and it taught me to never back down either, even in the face of death. I am glad you feel that no-one has the right to sacrifice anyones life other than their own and I agree, but the point for me is; if you teach kids to cower now, you teach them to never question authority, to always say; "well, we better not, what if........" They may as well head for the recruiters office tomorrow. I wonder, ARE you willing to give your life for what you believe in?? Are you willing to set an example?

If you aren't, then I have a great quote for you:

“If ye Love Wealth better than Liberty, the tranquility of Servitude better than the Animating Contest of Freedom, go Home from us in Peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that Ye were our Countrymen.” - Samuel Adams, 1776

teach your children

[WildEyedLiberal]

141. That's the whole difference - are they old enough to choose for themselves

I am willing to give my life for what I believe in - I'm also 20, and no one is making that decision on my behalf. If your kids are old enough and choose to be at the protest even if they know there are risks, as long as it's THEIR choice, why would I have a problem? Your original post was worded such that you felt you could make your kids' decisions for them and sacrifice their lives *for* them, which is unequivocally wrong. Make your own decisions regarding standing up and fighting, and let your kids make theirs, because they are autonomous individuals, and if they aren't old enough to make those decisions, then you can't make them for them.

[bobbieinok]

152. sympathise; worried about disabled as well....BUT King said abt children

marching for the right to register to vote in Birmingham (and getting hit by fire hoses and attacked by dogs.......this WAS SHOWN on TV; would it be now????)

King said most of the children were Baptists, and Baptists believed children 7, 8, 9, etc, could decide to accept Christ and be baptized.....King went on to say if at that age they can decide where to spend eternity, he was unwilling to say they are too young to support their parents and grandparents in their effort to register to vote

above is of course a paraphrase

[Al-CIAda]

48. blue sky at night -I agree. Lets all just keep our heads down and hope

this passes over. Let the opressors intimidate us into submission -even when intentions are PEACEFUL.

[teknomanzer]

56. Okay I may get flamed but I don't care...

Has anyone even considered that its pointless to bring children to protests. Children are very impressionable and they will do what ever mommy and daddy ask them to do because they want to be good and because it will make mommy and daddy happy. I'm not saying that a child cannot feel compassion for people suffering, but most young children will not have a deep understanding of the issues being addressed at a protest. They will think Bush is bad because you say he's bad or because you say he is a liar. Most children at that age don't have real independence of opinion. Now before you go to your keyboard ready to rip me a new one think about how the other side has brought our children in support of Bush and psuedo patriotism. Now do you really think those kids made up their own minds - or are they really just out having fun, having new experiences and voicing an opinion that makes their parents happy.

That being said - coupled with the possibility of little ones being harmed by some jackbooted fascist elements in law enforcement - I think its best to explain what you are doing and why and leave the children behind with a sitter.

[ultraist]

60. What?

Are you seriously proposing, that as parents, we shouldn't expose our children to learning experiences? That's how their world view is formed, through exposure and learning.

My daughter has attended numerous political events with me and they proved to be beneficial to her. It's also a good message to send out, that we ARE teaching our children about these issues and involving our loved ones.

Safety issues are another matter. I have refrained from taking my daughter to certain events (a KKK counter protest, for example) due to the threat of violence.

I'll have to look more into this before I decide about DC. We were planning on going WITH our children.

[teknomanzer]

64. What I am proposing is...

that a young child's views are essentially just a reflection of the guardian's views and not necessarily their own. A protest is foremost an expression of a view on an issue, any "learning" from a demonstration is secondary and could be more easily facilitated in a different forum.

As I mentioned before I'm sure that right wingers believe that they are teaching their children all the necessary values by dragging them to a pseudo-patriotic pro-war rally. I don't believe young children send out messages as they are at that point really without one of their own. Ask any child psychologist - the kids are really just trying to get along and make the most important people in their lives happy. If saying that Bush is a bad man makes mommy happy thats what the child will say.

In contrast a teenager without such concern for pleasing everyone might just answer "I don't know.", or "Who cares," or whatever opinion they might have.

Now if you have some adolescents - 13 and older - maybe 12 - Just around the point when they are becoming a pain (ie exerting there own opinions) then it might be appropriate to have them at demonstrations.

But if you truly believe a child under the age of 9 can form opinions based on reason and critical thinking then I have to ask you if you think kids should vote too? Why not?

Primarily however I am mostly concerned with safety - as I think was the intent of the OP. If things get heated the last place you want a child is in the middle of the ensuing chaos.

Let me just say that bringing children to a demonstration doesn't hurt anything, but I don't think it helps the cause any either. What I am saying is that it is pointless - and if there is the possibility of violence - dangerous. Historically if you look at any demonstration that was met with any serious establishment opposition violence was bound to happen - think about this would you want a four year old child at a union strike in the 1920's? or getting hosed down, bitten by dogs and beaten in the civil rights demonstrations, would you have wanted your kid to be with you at Kent State?

Now that I think about it the only reason why kids are at demonstrations these days is just because the establishment doesn't currently view such gatherings as threatening... but they always ignore you at first... eventually the desire to quell the opposition will arise and I dont know if you want your kids to learn that very hard lesson in civics at such a tender age.

[bobbieinok]

153. WHOA .... children were hosed and attacked by dogs in civil rights demos

see

152. sympathise; worried about disabled as well....BUT King said abt children
marching for the right to register to vote in Birmingham (and getting hit by fire hoses and attacked by dogs.......this WAS SHOWN on TV; would it be now????)

King said most of the children were Baptists, and Baptists believed children 7, 8, 9, etc, could decide to accept Christ and be baptized.....King went on to say if at that age they can decide where to spend eternity, he was unwilling to say they are too young to support their parents and grandparents in their effort to register to vote

above is of course a paraphrase

[Imagevision]

90. First of all, we're dealing with a renegade administration as in

anything goes, all's fair in love an war, you brought your kid, so don't bitch to scumbag Bush if something terrible happened otherwise you'll be explaining for the rest of your life why your kid ended up disfigured or whatever.

Bring the Kids? it's on you ...not the Bush cartel.

[KerryOn]

78. No flame from me....

I'm in total agreement.

The issues here are way to complicated for children to understand. To complicated for some adults as well.

I'm hoping that this will be a peaceful demonstration, but there are no guarantees, and considering both the negative and positive press, I'm sure there will be at least some instances of violence. There will be pro war demonstrators there, and that is where things could get ugly.

I agree 100% that small children should be left at home.

I also feel that people should have a plan just in case there is trouble. Everyone should set up a safe meeting well away from the protest area in case they get separated.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

164. Well....

The part about issues isn't entirely true, I know some 11 and 12 yr olds (I was one of them) that know the issues as much if not better than adults. But you're right about small kids under like 5 feet or so may wanna stay away from the front, depending on how many Tear Gas Launchers and Beanbag shotguns the Nat'l Gaurd has. Kids that size, it would be considerably easy to do permanent harm with one of those weapons.

[mod mom]

86. Have to disagree. As an activist mom, it my duty to educate my kids

(7 and 9 yo) to the need to fight the wrongs of the world instead of sitting back and allowing it to happen. I live in an affluent neighborhood that saw bu$h supporters for tax reasons (they point blank told me this during canvassing). I have taught my children not oly empathy but to fight for social justice.

Their teachers commented positively how much they were able to contribute to class discussion last fall as classroom discussion revolved around the election. My son brought up how upfair it was for the republicans to treat gay people as second class citizens. He said that democrats supported all people including gays. His teacher said she was really impressed with this subject that he brought up, since she did not feel comfortable in bringing it up on her own. One Christian fundie boy said my son's talk made his stomach feel sick. (3rd grader)

[liberalnurse]

180. Emily is coming with me.....

She is 14.

[Kitka]

92. I don't know your kids, but.....

I know mine. My 8 year old is quite aware of the issues and has made a conscious choice to oppose the Bush administration. Some children are intellecually aware.

[teknomanzer]

111. With all due respect...

You are not inside your child's head... you have no idea whether they are expressing honest opinions or mere reflections of your own world view. It's very difficult to discuss such things with parents because they are so biased towards their own offspring. I have rarely met any parent that does not consider their own child to be some sort of prodigy. That being said, children are very intellegent but at that level of development (generally before the age of 12) their real concern, as I have said several times before, is getting along and pleasing important people in their environment, and being the intelligent little ones that they are they know exactly what to do and say to bring about such results and at the same time be completely and genuinely sincere about it. That does not mean that they have developed a real opinion on very complex world issues.

The adult world is filled with great complexity which frankly some adults cannot even grasp. Teaching a child respect and compassion for others I applaud, but that is not the point of a demonstration. Demonstrations are conducted by adults to confront establishment head on - such confrontation has consequences. Serious consequences that a child of 8 or 9 should not have to experience.

I understand that parents want their kids to stand up and speak out against injustice. You are example enough if you communicate with them your reasons for demonstrating, but as tensions heat up over this war future protests will not be the picnic in the park we currently experience. Don't be the parent that loses a child when the hammer comes down... When you see the police wearing helmets, carrying shields and batons, and they have tear gas and so called less than lethal weapons... they are not there to eat cakes and drink tea...Free speech is not child's play.

[Kitka]

156. It's impossible to know, even as they approach adulthood,

what's going on in our childrens' heads. We all have to go on what we know of our children. I believe mine to be very emotionally and intellectually honest, and have no reason to believe that she is simply trying to please me - she is the first to challenge me when I put forth an opinion she doesn't agree with. We happen to agree on the fact that this war is unjust. I don't consider my child a prodigy - there are simply areas where she is unusually aware and talented and has been from an early age, and I don't apologize for that nor do I shy from it out of knowledge that someone will inevitably pull the 'every parent considers their child a prodigy' comment up. My son doesn't have the awareness my daughter has had from an early age, so it's not just that she's my offspring so she MUST be gifted and brilliant :) I just know my kid.

I also know protests - I've organized many, and seen successful protests where children are present. It just takes being smart - you don't go to the front lines when you have your kids with you. But you can still let them observe free speech in action. As she grows, her opinions may change from the ones she holds know, and I will respect that - and she knows it. I always tell her the 5 sides of the story. But I think that seeing the mechanics of mine will ensure that her beliefs are grounded in reality.

[the_spectator]

104. You make some sense.

People here at DU rightly get upset when freepers bring their little children to their protests or counter-protests. I'm sure freepers feel the same way about DU parents who bring young children to protests. But what REALLY matters is that I think MOST people - in the middle, often non-political, get turned off by parents of WHATEVER political persuasion bringing young children to protests. They are too young to make up their own minds! So it looks sort of cultish to the average observer.

That being said, there was a 12-year-old poster somewhere up-thread asking about him/herself, and I feel that a kid at that age who has their OWN desire to protest, and their OWN political beliefs (as proven by the fact that they have joined and post on DU)is MORE than welcome to protest! 12-year-olds, at least the smart ones, can have real independence and insight into politics. 4, 6 or 8 year olds can't, in my opinion.

[MadHound]

162. Have you ever considered that you're underestimating the kids?

I was nine years old when I became politically aware, and started protesting the Vietnam war and American fascism the day after Kent State went down. I wasn't brought to the protest by my parents, they were horrified that I went, my mother was politically neutral on the matter, my father was quite RW. However I got out of the library, saw the protest going on down the road, and went there on my own.

My experience wasn't bad, quite the reverse, nor was I scared at anytime, though looking back at the state of mind both by the local police and across the nation, perhaps I should have been. I feel that my participation on that day was a beneficial thing, and I received many lessons that day that have lasted for the rest of my life.

To say that children are unable to decide on their own about such issues is false, children are quite able to make up their minds about such issues. It depends on two things, the maturity of the child, and how informed they are. If they are intelligent, mature children, give them the complete picture, then I say trust them with their own decision.

[teknomanzer]

69. Why put children in danger...

over arguments over idiotic adult behaviour. Your teaching your kids it okay to stand up for what you believe in through your actions. Go protest yourself, but leave the kids at home if there even the remote possibity of danger.

BTW I assume you tell your kids not to stand in traffic right?

Driving, swimming, and such are not the same as deliberatly meeting with confrontation... and as I stated in a different post kids under the age of 12 may not have an opinion on such matters. So whats the point? You would be sacraficing you own child for your view... not theirs.

[Imagevision]

85. Bluesky, so your saying it's ok to sacrifice your kid for something

they most probably don't even comprehend yet? - Bring your kid(s) if something bad happens Don't blame scumbag Bush, it's on you sport.

[blue sky at night]

123. Do you understand the principle of setting an example....

if we teach our kids to cower now, they will be forever screwed for the Future. Its put up or shut up, if you aren't willing to put your body or your kids on the line, then why bother....lets just give up right now. Let me guess, you are willing to let other's children go to Iraq so yours don't have too, that is ON you sport.....to me it all boils down to the fundemental problem with this country, folks are totally GUTLESS. I for one am not going to teach my children that one.

[WildEyedLiberal]

132. So you think it's okay for force your children to die for your ideals?

That's not teaching them courage, that's using them as a pawn in your political struggle. It's NOT UP TO YOU to sacrifice your kid's lives FOR them. If they're older teenagers and CHOOSE on their own to protest, then by ALL means let them. It's about maturity and the ability to choose your own destiny. It's NOT YOUR PLACE to "be willing to put your kids on the line." Their lives aren't yours to throw away.

[Pithlet]

136. Those who are going to Iraq are adults.

Adults who chose to go. Big, big difference. Disregarding your own young child's safety is negligent behavior. They should get the chance to grow older and truly understand what they're fighting for and risking their lives for. I'm not saying all protests are off limits for babies and toddlers. But, to know that a large, publicized protest could get very violent, particularly in light of what has happened at recent protest, and to take a baby or toddler anyway is not right. They aren't yours to sacrifice.

[blue sky at night]

138. Oh my, jumping to conclusions.......my fault.

Hope you don't turn me into childrens services, jesus.

Please see my other post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4413346&mesg_id=4418094

[Pithlet]

140. Who's jumping to conclusions?

Seems liker you are. I wasn't commenting on any of your actions. Only your statements; your statements that we should sacrifice our children and comparing it to the sacrifice that parents make when their adult children go to war voluntarily. I have no problem with taking teenaged children to protests.

[Imagevision]

173. setting an axample? only if no harm comes to children by mistake?

anyone bringing a child if something bad should happen? -- it's on the parent, you want to set an example and something goes wrong? it's on you
everyone expects to simply exercise their right for a peacful demonstation -- while at the same time disregarding Rove planted provacteurs/spoilers -- don't play ignorance after the fact -- or my favorite chant is; "they can't do that"...!

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

18. Tasers and attack dogs used in Pittsburgh yesterday (article link below)

Based on what happened here in Pittsburgh yesterday, I agree with the OP that children should not go to the DC demonstration.

http://www.postgazette.com/pg/05233/557445.stm

<snip>
As police dispersed the group, they used a Taser and pepper spray on one woman and charged her with disorderly conduct, failure to disperse and resisting arrest, Winkler said. Another woman, Carol Wiedmann, 68, of Sewickley, was taken to Presbyterian University Hospital after being bitten in the thigh by a police dog, and was to be charged with disorderly conduct and failure to disperse. A teenager also was cited and released.

[merh]

24. They will use provocateurs to cause disruptions and to give the

police a reason to "disberse" the crowd. (A reason to attack and use tasers, pepper spray, dogs, asps, FORCE.) Another tactic they will use is to infiltrate activist groups and their sockpuppets create the disturbances.

They have been planning to provoke as long as we have been planning to march.

From the same link: "fox news" clarification

by a witness Saturday, Aug. 20, 2005 at 11:50 PM

For clarification -- the camerman in question was wearing a "fox news" shirt, but was not directly working for him. Other TV crews identified him as a freelancer for Fox. His camera was not a pro camera like the other crews (DVCAM), but was a consumer-grade miniDV camera.

He also was aggressive and hostile towards the protestors from the beginning. I think it is likely that he wanted to provoke protestors so that he could give the cops an excuse to react violently.


The recruitment station was shut down, so the protest was anticipated. Looks to me like a case of planned provocation prior to a police show of force.

[Imagevision]

87. MERH> excellant point-using provocateurs to cause disruptions

this one we all need to keep an eye on.

[merh]

97. They did it in the 60's & 70's

And this "they" is even more vile than the "they" that existed in the 60's & 70's.

They are evil and they will do stop at nothing to make their point. :scared:

[shadowknows69]

47. if they're going to sic the dogs on grandma

they'll do it to our kids

[1932]

20. Bring children so there isn't political violence. N.Klein's Fences&Wind's:

Political violence would be the WORST thing to happen.

So do evertything to ensure that there won't be, and that includes bringing your children.

Naomi Klein's book Fences and Windows talks about how important it is to today's political organizers to have non-violent protests, and about how hard the government tries to instigate violence at political protests.

It's the protestor's imperative to avoid violence these days.

Read Fences and Windows if you don't get it.

[benburch]

22. I don't seriously think Children would stop these goons.

They want us dead.

[1932]

29. Naomi Klein writes about people who make arguments like yours.

She says that people try to dissuade protest many ways, including the way that you're trying right now.

DU'ers should read Fences and Windows if they want insight into protesting their government.

The government doesn't want you dead. In fact, if they killed you, there'd be a revolution and they definitely don't want that.

What they want to do is discredit you by making YOU seem like YOU are the violent person.

Doesn't anyone remember Seattle? They didn't kill people in Seattle. They tried to make the protestors look like the irrational instigators of violence. Which is why protestors now come prepared to be the opposite of violent. In Quebec, they catapulted teddy bears over the barricades, for example.

[benburch]

31. The last thing I want is to discourage protest.q

But if we have children, we will have to back down if they attack.

[1932]

34. Modern protests discourage VIOLENT protests.

People in the government also don't want to discourage the protests. They want to encourage protests that make the protestors look bad. That's how they win the public relations battles.

There are ways to protest which make it impossible to encourage a violent response by the government.

Today, I venture to guess, that violence at protests is almost entirely done through false-flag protestors, and most protestors are very adept at countering even that kind of thing.

Rather that scaring people into not bringing kids to protests because of the inevitability of violence, smart people at DU who care to see the protests succeed should be explaining to other DU'ers all the modern techniques protestors use to avoid violence and to win the public relations battle.

Naomi Klein has written about this, but I guess a lot of people here don't read books and don't know the state of the art arguments about issues talked about here.

[benburch]

38. I saw 1968 from up close.

I remember Kent State.

I saw what happened in Seattle and Miami.

I read what happened in Pittsburgh the other day.

Violence WILL happen. Deadly violence WILL happen. It is only a matter of how soon.

I believe that they know they are losing ground to us, and that they need an excuse to roll out martial law.

Were my children not grown adults, I would not want them to be anywhere near an anti-adminstration protest now.

Naomi Klein has the best of intentions, and damn I wish I believed that we could bring down fascists without a shot being fired, but I seriously believe that Bush washes in the blood of innocents, and has no fear of adding ours to his bath.

[1932]

52. Have you read Fences and Windows?

[kitkat65]

122. It sounds like you're wanting a fight. I think most people here

will resist provocation for the sheer reason that the protest becomes more about the violence than the message.

Don't be provoked.

[Missy Vixen]

63. We live just outside of Seattle

>She says that people try to dissuade protest many ways, including the way that you're trying right now.<

In light of yesterday's events, it might be wise to leave the young ones at home. Then again, what the hell do I know? We live 30 miles east of Seattle.

>Doesn't anyone remember Seattle? They didn't kill people in Seattle. They tried to make the protestors look like the irrational instigators of violence.<

Our grandparents were marching with the union members. I am here to tell you that everyone painting themselves as "peaceful" that day was not, were not government plants, and had come to Seattle from other areas to raise hell.

I don't think it's a great idea to bring kids to most protests, peaceful or not. I seem to remember kids and parents being pepper sprayed in Portland awhile back, for instance.

Julie

[1932]

65. Seattle changed strategies. It made non-violence & humor key.

Have you read Fences & Windows?

[Missy Vixen]

73. "Non-violence" and "humor" only work if there are no hidden agendas

>Have you read Fences & Windows?<

And this would be important why?

Again: Sometimes it's not appropriate to bring children into a situation in which one is not sure if they'd be safe. The original poster makes a compelling argument.

Julie

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[1932]

159. You think it isn't important to read a well-researched and well-argued

book about political protest and organizing?

You're talking about these issues, right? So, why not be informed?

[BlackVelvet04]

28. So hiding behind children is a good thing?

I couldn't disagree more.

[1932]

30. Read Naomi Klein's Windows and Fences. Don't go planning violence, and

there won't be violence. Bring your kids. Have fun. Go armed with humor.

[HEyHEY]

100. Hello, it's the COPS that will use violence

[1932]

171. Hello, read Naomi Klein.

The cops will provoke but the won't attack without adequate provocation. It's about public relations and images and not about the desire to crack heads.

Protestors have strategies to deny the government provocation and win the public relations battle.

[HEyHEY]

174. Naomi Klein is full of shit

Being a woman who came from Canada, she should know due to the Guns n' Roses riot in Vancouver AND the Sergeant Pepper incident at a WTO protest, that the cops don't always look for provocation.

[1932]

175. Right.

[TankLV]

49. Sometimes it's not "hiding behind children", either.

Bring the children.

It's a "good thing".

To not do so would be a "bad" thing.

But nice to see you are getting all the points out to make sure any protest is a failure.

BRING THE CHILDREN! BRING YOUR ENTIRE FAMILIES, DOGS, ETC!

We ARE the FACE of TRUE America!

Remember the Civil Rights protests. Use them as an example to emulate.

BRING THE CHILDREN. ESPECIALLY THE CHILDREN!

[leftchick]

79. Thank you for that

I was beginning to think I was crazy to take my family to DC. The dog will be in the kennel!

:)

[KerryOn]

80. Just because there are children there....

... does not mean that there will not be violence.

If the crowd gets out of control, the police will use what ever means necessary to control them. It will NOT matter if there are small children in the crowd.

The police may not even be able to see them behind all the adults.

Reda the post directly above yours about infiltraters planted in the crowd to start trouble. I have seen it happen.

Everyone should use some common sense here.

[teknomanzer]

113. Bushco's spin machine...

would pin the blame on leftist agitators if children got hurt. Or say the parents are political whacko's who brainwash and force their kids to believe commie pinko anti american crap and tried to use them as shields... They still have Rove around you know...

There are children totally f-ed up in Iraq do you think they give a rat's ass about YOUR kids who have a much greater chance of competing with their own silver spoon fed brats. Do you think they care about the mothers and fathers, sons and daughters, being sent to Iraq. Don't let kids become collateral damage.

[hlthe2b]

23. WOW, I understand the concern, but, well just WOW

I don't know how to come down on this, to be sure..... We surely want to protect the children, but has it really come to this? Boy, am I depressed just thinking about the implications.

[benburch]

25. I posted this because I don't WANT to know if they would harm kids.

I would rather that the kids were safe.

[shadowknows69]

42. I think the danger level depends on our eventual goals

for this march. is this going to be just another in a long line of protests that will barely get anything but surface coverage by the MSM (no terri schaivo so wall to wall coverage is out of the question) and it will pass when were gone or are we staying until we get answers and past the point of our permits running out. I'm of a mind if I have enough brothers and sisters with me to stay on shrubs lawn until he comes out with his resignation in hand or they have to disappear all of us.

[BlackVelvet04]

26. I don't think these protests

are the place for children.....no matter the cause. Besides being dangerous it looks exploitive.

[William769]

27. Just because this misAdministration doesn't care about children

Doesn't mean their parents shouldn't. Bad Idea. Just my two cents.

[leftchick]

32. I am taking my 10 and 8 year old boys....

My husband and I are taking the boys on the peace train and staying for two nights. We thought long and hard about the violence potential and I just don't see it as very likely. We will be on The Mall in DC not in downtown NYC or San Francisco.


Politically for bush any violence would be terrible for him. I don't see them risking it.

I hope I am right. Now you have me scared. :(

[dddem]

35. My friend and I are thinking of going with our 14 year old daughters

By the next election, some of their friends will be old enough to vote (and possibly get drafted). I think it's important for our kids to know that they are a part of the process of government. If this includes protest, then so be it (by the way I understood this was to be a PEACEFUL protest against the war). I'm not concerned, as long as we all stay together, and I for one don't like crowds anyway, so my plan is to linger on the sidelines. I think if you go into things with the right attitude, don't go looking for trouble, and react rationally, then you should be cool. I'm not really worried. I was recently watching a documentary about the civil rights movement, and I remember being a kid and wishing I was old enough to be a part of Dr. King's peaceful protests. I so admired his way of getting his message across, and I think we can continue his ways, as long as we don't focus on this administration's actions and attitudes, and instead focus on the task at hand - ending the occupation in Iraq, and bringing our soldiers home. Thinking about the lies and deceptions makes me angry, so I need to keep on task - I'm against the war, that's the only thing this protest has to be about. If I start thinking about all the shit that got us there, I'll explode. I can't think about the oil or haliburton, or the carlysle group, or PNAC or the saudis - just getting the troops home. And peace. We can get angry after the work is done.

[carpetbagger]

36. They rough up a kid on television, the war's over. They won't.

George Bush's heart is no more black than that of Bull Connor. When BUll Connor ordered arrests, dogs, and firehoses on children in Birmingham, the entire country was disgusted. Within 6 weeks, Kennedy proposed what would become the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

The police are not going to fuck with a young child. Take your children to the protest. We need more families out there. We also need to teach children the ways of peace.

PS: so that you know my money's where my mouth is, I took my two children (ages 3-10 or thereabouts) to Crawford last weekend.

[benburch]

39. You assume that the political process means anything now.

I do not. We have a fascist dictatorship that lacks only the formality of a declaration of martial law.

[shadowknows69]

43. we could be a reasons they call martial law

if we decided to stay past our permit times i guarantee things will go south quickly.

[carpetbagger]

120. It's no more fascist than Alabama in the 1960's. n/t

[pitohui]

46. i agree w. carpetbagger & 1932

cops aren't looking to hurt little kids, their presence is a calming influence


v. important to get the children involved, they are the ones who will be drafted if we don't succeed, a bunch of folks w. no family or no kids look like they are just pro agitators instead of the real deal


families involved together is the better message

[Imagevision]

98. Rough up a "kid"? ...they report he was a threat! do you live under a rock

this administration since you've failed to notice has done whatever it damnwell pleases. If a child gets hurt? they'll blame it on the parents and get away with it with approval from Gonzalez. Plus do you think you can rely on msm to show footage? Question? is this suppposed to be televised? - I doubt it bigtime, Cheney will have taken care of that!

[bobbieinok]

155. Johnson, not Kennedy

[beltanefauve]

37. This is a "permitted" march

and therefore the potential for violence or false arrest would most likely be minimal, whereas the excercise of free speech without a "permit" (did the colonists petition to conduct the Boston Tea Party???)may increase your chances of being swept up in a protest net or exposed to overzealous law inforcement. At least that was my experience with the RNC Convention in NYC.

[tomg]

41. Right now, we are leaning toward

asking our twelve-year old to go with us. He has been going to demonstrations since he was 8. Recently, we have left the decision as to whether to go or not up to him (mostly local - great family support for child care- and, yeah, we sometimes do a little guilt tripping on the order of "Well, if you really don't care" when he is simply being, well, a twelve-year old which is what he is). Were he six or seven or eight, I don't think we would bring him, although he was at the Washington demonstration in 2003. At twelve, unless things really start to heat up, I think he really has the choice, and given the potential gravity, there won't be any guilt tripping.

[Horse with no Name]

45. I agree Ben

With the climate the way it is...you can feel the violence and hate underneath.
It is only a matter of time before the violence erupts.
My daughter was called in to work on Wednesday night. I chose not to take my granddaughter to the vigil, and instead stayed home and lit candles here.
It is a tough choice, are you willing to sacrifice a child fighting in Iraq or are you willing to sacrifice a child protesting the fighting in Iraq?
Personally I asked myself that question and came up with an answer of NO on both counts. I guess that makes me selfish.
I don't mind the personal sacrifice, but I surely can't take anyone down with me.

[AuntPatsy]

50. I don't know, if we keep allowing them to instill certain fears of

reprisals in us, is it not a bit like allowing them to win?

I agree it could be dangerous for the young ones, but then again, isn't it more dangerous to allow this regime to continue unchallenged without using all the rescources at our disposal, it is after all, their future we are fighting for is it not? Shouldn't they be allowed a say just as we do ourselves?

A tricky one Benburch since I agree your fears have merit.

[La Coliniere]

51. The responsible thing to do

is not that difficult to call. I certainly wouldn't bring any children younger than 11 or 12. Although the potential for violence is probably low, and I'd equate this protest in the same light as last summer's NYC puke convention protest, one can never discount the spiraling effect that could develop if an incident gets out of "control". I'd ere on the side of caution in regards to keeping children safe. Being proactive is wiser than being reactive IMHO.

[burrowowl]

102. Also, younger children

are more likely to become dehydrated and tired. 11 or 12 is fine, younger ones, unless you are going to carrying them at times along water and supplies. It might be wise to leave them home. When my little sister was 5 she didn't want to go to her group's activities at a family retreat, she persuaded me (17 at the time) to take on our activity, a hike, well I ended up with her and my pack on my back for 2/3's of the hike. So make sure you are healthy and strong enough to carry them and if any early signs of it turning violent, get them OUT!
Also, bring some kid harnesses and leashes so that the little ones don't stray, they can easily get lost in a crowd. I know, I know, but how else are you going to keep them close to you? Know your kid, how mindful are they, obedient or disciplined (i.e. like a dog walking off leash to voice commands), etc.

[bpilgrim]

53. "there is a significant chance of police violence " why do you think that?

the recent DC protest went very well.

just a hunch? :shrug:

peace

[CountAllVotes]

54. why hide? why pretend? It is for the future of OUR children!

I went to the peace marches in the 60s and 70s with my own father who was a WWII veteran of the U.S. Marine Corps. I was going to go alone, but he wanted to go too being he became very anti-war being he had a son that was of draft age.

The children are our future. If they want to go, they should be able to go.

As for the police, etc., do you really think they would kill or shoot a kid?

:kick:

[JanMichael]

55. I'm not certain that the DC, or Park, Police will use the Miami Model yet.

At least not on a HUGE protest, the results of those sorts of rounding-up and dispersment tactics on a crowd of 100,000 to 250,000 would be extremely dangerous.

Plus I imagine that the DC Police are a a hell of a lot more Liberal that the Miami types.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

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[Donailin]

59. Totally disagree.

This march is going to be attended by mainstream Americans as well as the progressives and far left fringe. By warning people not to bring kids sends the message that the protest will not be a peaceful one. That's BS, it will be peaceful and it will be meaningful PRECISLY because middle America will be there too, and middle America has KIDS.

[The Animator]

61. MLK didn't want his kids to go to some of the protests he attended

I remember seeing that in a video biography somewhere. A child's presence may disuade a policeman from resorting to violence in theory, but would you honestly be willing to test that theory with your own child?

I'm sure you could trust your fellow protestors not to do anything stupid. You could trust the police to do everything in their power to prevent endangering a child as well. The freeptards are another story. You've seen how they can get, would you trust them not to do anything stupid because your child is nearby?

If you child is old enough to take care of him or herself if you get separated from them in the chaos, no problem. Every protective instinct inside of me is screaming that if there is a potential for great danger, don't bring them.

I might suggest that if this is a concern for some protestor/parents, that they set up a special area within the protest zone speciffically for children. Someplace far from the frontlines, well protected, and with a quick and easy evac route in case things turn ugly fast.

[Catholic Sensation]

66. are these chances of police violence as likely as, say, the nuke that

was going to be tested or whatever last week? or the arrest of people at camp casey?

[Name removed]

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[RazorNY22]

68. DON'T BRING THE KIDS!!!

Here's a common tactic I saw when I was working during the RNC in NYC.

Some tall, male, protestors would walk couples with children, and elderly protestors towards the front of the barricades. The tall males would then stay 4 or 5 five deep behind the kids and grandmas. They would then begin to push towards the barricades. We (the cops) would hold the line. The kids and grandmas would be crushed, because believe me, the cops were not going to relinquish there positions. After seeing this twice we got wise and prepared. The next time the tall males tried this they got a tap on the shoulder from the Bronx Task Force which had deployed a block away and behind them. All they could manage was a stupid look on their face as it was splashed with pepper spray. The kids and grandmas actually thanked us as they tall males were carted away for their baloney sandwiches on the pier.

Protest is for adults. Don't bring small children. I would say a logical cutoff age would be 14 yrs. old. My kids are the most important thing to me. Bush will be gone very soon.

Protest peacefully. Don't go were the cops say don't go. And all will be fine.

Razor

[BigBearJohn]

71. Why would any parent subject his kid to the possibility of harm?

It's beyond me. I have been at protests were we were shoved HARD,
subjected to tear gas, people throwing hard objects, being blasted
with water cannons. I thought parents were supposed to protect
their kids from harm... not place them in an environment where the
chances of harm are significantly high.

Ok, so you bring your kid to the protest. He loses an eye, or
gets crushed or stomped on during the protest, what are you
doing to say the next day? "Oh, sweetie, you were so brave."
Give me a break.:grr: :grr:

[WildEyedLiberal]

133. Someone upthread is arguing that he has the right to sacrifice his kids

As if the children are his property, his pawns, and that their lives belong to him for him to "sacrifice" as he chooses. Utterly disgusting.

[kohodog]

72. My kids came to a number of pre-war and the RNC

They are not toddlers though...February 2002 was freezing in NYC and some of the little kids there were cold.

The closest we came to any confrontation was when my daughter and I turned the corner near Washington Square Park at the end of the 2003 protest and walked into a hundred or so riot gear clad cops going to clear out the streets the minute the permit expired. That was when there was a small amount of push back, but we decided to head back uptown.

Unless the anarchists take over I see no reason to expect violence this time. Depending on the weather, etc, it can be tough on young kids, but I think their presence (as well as seniors) is a positive thing. The early protests in NYC were incredibly diverse in every sense. We need everyone to join in to prove this is a movement "of the people" and not just a certain political element.

[Pithlet]

74. Older children, yes. Babies and toddlers, no.

If I thought there was a chance that a protest would draw a violent response, then there is no way in hell I'd take my 4 year old and 22 month old. It would be damned irresponsible. They aren't old enough to decide for themselves if they want to risk it, and they really aren't old enough to understand what is going on for it to be a valuable learning lesson.

[mod mom]

81. Already booked w my 7 and 9 yo included. I intend to be peaceful

and think this is an important historic event for my children to witness.

They are veterans at peace marches, and participated in several protests regarding the vote theft in Ohio. We need to groom future socially responsible citizens!

[Imagevision]

82. If you bring your kids - they get hurt, it's on you not BUSH!

You were warned but you did it your way, and by the way, do you really believe you're as free as you want/need to be protesting with sibblings aboard?? it's your life...

[mod mom]

91. BS I am bringing my children to a peace rally. We are law abiding citizen

who abhor violence. The suggestion that children should not participate in a peace march is ridiculous. My fault if they are injured? Just as much as it would be my fault if my husband and I am injured marching for peace. NONE!

[Imagevision]

95. Bring the kids? you'll be dealing with gustapo like tactics

just be prepared for the worse, the days of; "they can't do that" are Harry Potterish!

[kohodog]

126. How many of the recent protests have you been to?

Sometimes I imagine possibilities in my mind that are not necessarily accurate. Unless something radically different happens this time there should be no major problems. This is not a confrontational, hardcore IMF, WTO type protest. The police will be there, FBI videotaping, etc, and there may be a few skirmishes with hardcore activists, but this has happened at most recent large antiwar protests. If my kids were young they'd be coming too unless weather, accomodations or something like that made it a poor decision. They're older and will come on their own (except my 9th grade daughter who will come with us.

Mostly the protests are festive and the cops are for the most part enjoying the overtime and talking with people.

[Pithlet]

103. Does it matter who's fault it is if the worst happens?

I don't understand taking the risk when it comes to your kids. If there's a chance it could get ugly, it is putting your kids in harm's way, particularly if they're too young to really know what is going on or make an informed choice as to whether they want to attend.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

84. damn it i inten to bring all 4 of my children youngest is 13

[the_spectator]

105. I don't think anyone objects to that -

if the youngest is 13! You have teenagers, not little children! Everyone knows there's almost no way to make teenagers do what they don't actually want to do themselves.

[Maddy McCall]

107. I will bring my son if I go. He's 11.

I think this warning against bringing children is "jumping the gun," so to speak.

[leftchick]

112. It has given me pause

we purchased tickets for the Peace Train to DC for my Husband, Me and our 2 boys 8 and 11 years. It certainly has put a damper on it.

:(

[mmonk]

88. I agree that it would be best

not to bring children. Never put your protest desires and wanting to teach your children about it and your views ABOVE their safety. You need to remember that there is a sort of madness out there and the rules put in to protect the public after Kent State no longer apply. States and cities are being given more and more "crowd control" devices these days that appear more deadly. Also, many rights we have enjoyed in the past and guaranteed by the Constitution have been removed. In America, life or death or imprisonment is at the judgement of others and your right to redress and right to counsel and privacy can be removed at the whim of the president and his party.

[shadowknows69]

109. The old non-violence standbys aren't going to work

like going limp when they try to arrest you. we'll be going limp involuntarily because I guarantee that if there is any resistence to police teling us to disperse then its taser time.

[BigBearJohn]

89. Dogs Used On Antiwar Protesters In Pittsburgh (Yeah, bring the kids!)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4412571&mesg_id=4412571

[davsand]

94. Tear gas and pepper spray don't select only those over 18.

While I'd never tell anyone else what to do, my kid does not go to any action with me if I think it might get out of hand or turn ugly. She's 8, and she's been with us in any number of peaceful marches but we kept her home from places like strikes and picket lines.

My kid does not need to be blasted with pepper spray or tear gas at this point in her life, nor do I want her to see me get arrested if some thug does get anywhere near her.

You can tell me all you want to that police will not get out of line if kids are there, and I'll be happy to remind you of the number of times that marches turned ugly in a split second.

Every parent has to make the call for themselves and for their kids I guess, but i think I'll keep my kid out of this one...


Laura

[Imagevision]

96. Add to that the provocateurs/spoilers to manage the protest

we attend expecting non-violence and if we score points the rule book gets thrown out the window, plus Cindy will have created even a much larger following then she presently has.

[HEyHEY]

99. Don't bring them because it isn't right anyway

A young child doesn't really have the understanding of what they are protesting, so it's kind of unfair to the kid.

[Maddy McCall]

108. My kid's understood since he was 6 or 7.

[JVS]

114. Yeah. It's just as bad as taking young kids to pro-war rallies.

If you have something to say, say it yourself, don't use your kids as billboards for your views.

[KerryOn]

106. For those still convinced it is OK for children....

I suggest you read this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4416370

[northzax]

176. that's Pittsburgh

the cops in Pittsburgh don't deal with protests very often. The DC Cops and the Park Police basically do this for a living. There will bo cops in riot gear, but they simply want it to be over. They don't want to arrest people, and they certainly don't want to get into fights with anyone. They will defend themselves, if there is violence directed at them.

Remember that this is DC, we deal with protests all the time. Plus, this place is the bluest of the blue. George Bush didn't get 10,000 votes in DC in 2004. In 2000, he lost to Nader.

If there is a riot, then there will be tear gas and rubber bullets. But if you're planning on bringing violence with you, stay home and trash your own city, will ya?

Pittsburgh is bush league, DC is the peaceful protest center of the universe, you have nothing to fear.

[KerryOn]

179. Lets hope your right....

I'm coming peacefully. There is no way that this old man would even beging to start anything.

[qanda]

110. We took our two children to three of the rallies in DC

Before and during the war. I really don't understand your post. The children enhance the experience and are often targeted by the media for their opinion of things. It really helps to hear a child's perspective of how the world is going. For the first rally we took the children to I had my son, who was then six, make his own sign and he chose to write, "No War on Iraq!" He had quite a good time carrying his sign and stating his opinion to radio stations and the FReepers who tried to shout us down. He and my daughter, who was just four at the time, gained a valuable lesson in Democracy and standing up for what is right.

I would never put my children in a position to be hurt and I just could not imagine fighting with cops with my children in tow. Also, the rallies that I have been to in DC have never been violent and the police have acted with a lot of professionalism and I wouldn't expect anything different this time around.

[mod mom]

115. I agree. My kids have been going to protsts since before the war, as do

many other children. United for Peace and Justice usually bring musical instrument and the kids have always hasd a positive experience. If things start to get violent, we will be out of there, our hotel is within walking distance to the WH.

[shadowknows69]

116. Therein lies some of the problem

too many people with kids=too many people willing to abandon the protest when things get dicey. flame away if you must but this might be our last chance to get in the big game for all the marbles and i think the powers that be are counting on the fact that the crowds no matter how big will disperse when they are asked to. there will be a couple random pepper sprayings and we'll all be expected to flee like good little middle class dissidents. fade in on the anchor's chair: " hundreds of protesters came out against the war in washington DC today. police were forced to disperse the crowd when 4 protesters became unruly and were subdued with tasers. in other news the BTK killer is still in jail and michael jackson has not been accused of anything for several months." I'm not advocating anything but i don't think the anti-war movement really starts until we decide that we shall not be moved and then dare them to do it. riots and hilarity ensue from there. it's shit or get off the pot time folks.

[Telly Savalas]

117. Dare them to do it, they do it, and what changes?

[shadowknows69]

119. then people get to see the secret police in action

let even the MSM ignore them tasering 10,000-50,000 people who won't leave. just the independent video alone will finally expose these criminals.

[Telly Savalas]

125. Worked pretty well in 1968 Chicago, eh?

The masses were awakened and voted for Nixon.

[mod mom]

127. Sorry, but I follow in the light of MLK, John Conyers, John Lewis + others

who believed there can be a PEACEFUL path to fight oppression. I intend to act, as I have taught my kids that truth and justice are best served through non-violence. Use words not fists. I think those who advocate violence are doing this movement a great disservice.

You don't speak for the entire movement. I have been fight ing this regime full time since April 2004 and part time before that. I have done so with out violence. I am on the front lines in the fight against election fraud and advocating fair and transparent elections. this movement is as much mine as yours and if I advocate non-violence, that does NOT lessen my effect on change-only strengthens it. Violence will be a turn off to the masses, and yes we need the masses for change, even us middle class moms!

[shadowknows69]

131. I never suggested that we start any violence

i follow and plan to follow the ideals of MLK and Ghandi but their fights ended up with people not just protesting but resisting. going places they were told not to and refusing to leave until the opposition yielded or they took them away. mostly they took them away. many with busted skulls.i would never advocate violence i'm just saying we should be ready for it. we shouldn't incite and we don't with passive resistance but it will likely escalate in places anyway. the civil rights and the anti-vietnam war movements were wrought with violence and destruction from the other side. we can't start it, we shouldn't finish it but for our message to be seen as sincere and clear we will probably have to endure it.

[Telly Savalas]

118. You have some stats to back this up?

There are numerous political protests in the United States. On rare occasions things get a bit out of hand. Do you have any numbers that suggest that attending a political protest is anymore dangerous than driving on a highway?

[troubleinwinter]

124. Yesterday's protest in PA

"Pepper spray also hit a group of children and the police knocked over a man in a wheelchair." http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4416370

[troubleinwinter]

134. Protest YESTERDAY: "Pepper spray also hit a group of children"

"Pepper spray also hit a group of children and the police knocked over a man in a wheelchair." http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[Telly Savalas]

143. Traffic Today: "One dead after car crash in Grey"

http://www.wcsh6.com/home/article.asp?id=25703

If we're going to base our judgements solely on anecdotes, then we shouldn't be putting kids in cars either.

[troubleinwinter]

146. We do go about our ordinary daily business driving on roads...

But I personally would not take my child into what will (hopefully) be masses of people, where you KNOW the cops will be dressed in riot gear and packing pepper spray, clubs, rifles and tear gas.

I was tear gassed in a demonstration. Ever been tear gassed in a crowd? You cannot see. You cannot breathe. People were hurt. I would not like my child trampled in a blind panicked crowd like that.

If you choose to put your child in that sort of situation, I suppose it is your business.

It is a dangerous situation, in my mind. A smallish vigil or march is one thing. This may be quite another.

If a child is hurt in a situation that goes badly, I will be wondering why the child was put in such a situation by the parent.

[Telly Savalas]

151. The point, however, is that the conjecture that a protest is dangerous...

is based on anecdotal evidence. In some protests problems arise, but they are vastly outnumbered by protests that happen without incident. It just happens that incident-free protests don't get as many headlines.

[troubleinwinter]

157. There have been numerous threads here expressing concern

over a feeling of escalating tensions.

"In some protests problems arise". Not a good place for a child, in my opinion.

A few months ago at a protest, a baby was pepper sprayed and treated in the hospital.

Yes, it is "anecdotal", but I would not subject my child to this sort of risk.

I feel that Ben's advice was good advice.

[brettdale]

129. Bring everybody

Bring the kids, grandparents, bring everybody, the more people the better, remember the MSM is going to whore up the 9/11 march and try totally to downplay the antiwar march.

[spuddonna]

130. You know when I first read this thread I said...

Maybe benburch is over-reacting... But after reading about the Pgh protest, I think benburch is right.

If they can set dogs upon a 68 yr old grandmother who had done nothing and was walking away, and dump a person in a wheelchair on the ground, then they are capable of anything...

[Telly Savalas]

142. Don't ever get on a plane.

They sometimes crash, you know:

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/08/21/venezuela.plane.crash.ap/

[spuddonna]

145. LOL Ok, ok point taken...

But what are the statistical chances of being injured in a peaceful protest - and I know that sounds oxymoronic! :)

I ask because 1) never been in one, 2) this administration scares me like nobody's business, 3) I have no qualms about myself, but when my children are involved, it becomes a different ballgame.

[Telly Savalas]

149. I asked that question upthread, but didn't get an answer.

Honestly, it's pretty hard to assess the risk, since the conditions vary wildly among differing political protests. The two big factors are:

1. The quality of the police force in the jurisdiction of the protest: a well trained police force that has experience dealing with protests is the biggest factor in creating a safe environment. If they act like professionals, peaceful protesters won't get injured even if there are troublemakers in the crowd.

2. Who shows up to protest: if it's peace activists who want their voices heard, that reduces the chances for problems. If you get jackasses who have Weather Underground fantasies of "taking the fight to the street", then the chances of injury increase. If you encounter someone with a bandana over their face, gently remind them that smashing a Starbucks window probably won't lead to the downfall of the capitalist order, then get as far away from them as possible.

I took my daughter who was a baby at the time to a protest here in Toronto when the invasion began. My risk assessment was based on using my nose. The crowd seemed mellow, but there was a large police presence and the riot gear and horses made me a tad nervous, so I made sure to stay on the periphery of the crowd in order to enable a quick exit. The protest was incident free.

I plan to take her to the one in front of the consulate on Sept. 24th, and am expecting the same thing.

[spuddonna]

160. Yeah, that's kinda what I figured...

Safety depends on the type of people protesting and the cops... That's a good idea, too, staying on the periphery.

I think my initial response was viceral - I grew up in Pgh, and I forgot how scared I was of the 'crowd control' cops...

My brother and I went to a U2 concert at Three Rivers when we were teens, and after the concert, the crowd control police were out in force in riot gear. For some reason, the crowd started pushing forward. At one point, my brother and I were pinned up against a metal bar railing at the base of some stairs, and everyone in that area was getting smashed. My brother tried standing on the railing to get a little higher, away from the crowd, and a policeman above us on a landing bashed him in the head with a flashlight to make him get down. I caught him as he fell back, and everyone just stopped and looked at this cop.

I'll say as crowd control, it worked because everyone was scared shitless! The cop was freaky. He didn't say anything - just had a big grin on his face. Luckily, nothing else happened, and my brother said as raps on the head go, he gave it a "6", (lol) but I'll never forget that.

[northzax]

170. safer in DC than anywhere else, probably in the world

DC cops and the Park Police have the most experience with protesters, we get these things a couple of times a year, plus the inagurations and the like.

Do take a bandanna to breathe through if tear gas is employed, there won't be anything worse than that. (yes, I have been tear gassed, but not at protests in DC)

[Postman]

137. BULLSHIT! Bring your kids. Pull the mask off of the FASCISTS

n/t

[H2O Man]

144. Yep.

People used to tell Martin not to use children in his marches. He told us a story about a father of a young girl from Birmingham: she wanted to march with King, but her father told her no, you are too young, and it's too dangerous. The little girl looked her father in the eye, and said, "Then you do it, daddy."

A short time later, after the marches had ended, she went to church. A racist had planted dynamite at the foundation of the church, and blew it up. Four little girls died in that hateful event, including the daughter of the man who refused to let her march with Martin.

We are in a dangerous day and a threatening time. By nature, we all wish we could protect our children, to shield them from the hatred of culture. But as Martin reminded us, the safest place may actually be in confronting evil.

Bring your children.

[mod mom]

161. Spoke to an activist who attended MLK's I have a Dream rally years ago

she said at the time provocateurs where warning not to attend that rally in DC because there would be violence. It was one of the most memorable moments of her life. She suggested to ignore those who do the same on DU. We need to show the country that we will take back our country w/o violence.

This is a truly historic event that I want to experience with my children. Flame me if you like, but my children will attend. They are more likely to incur danger crossing a busy street then attending a peace march.

[H2O Man]

181. That's right.

Sometimes it is our enemies from without who try to reduce us with fear. And sometimes it is something within ourselves that brings fear to the surface. Our genetic wiring tells us to avoid potentially "high risk" situations.

As Americans, we need to recognize that fear is our enemy right now. Fear of this, fear of that, fear instilled in our beings by the mass media and by the morally impaired "administration."

In the gospels, Jesus uses the exact words that Buddha had used: "Do not be afraid." He also taught that we need to let children serve as our leaders. King recognized this. And the truth is that the more children attend a demonstration, the less likely there is to be unrestrained violence.

You are doing the right thing in teaching your children about life. I know you would not risk their safety. It does this old man good to hear that you are bringing them. Your children have a smart, good and decent parent. Thank you.

[leftchick]

163. Thank you for your input H2O Man

I have flip flopped about this several times reading this thread. My family, including my two boys 10 and 8, are planning on riding the peace train to DC and staying the weekend. I thought it would be a wonderful experience for my sons to see real Democracy in action. To participate in what will hopefully be a huge anti-war movement in this country.

So I get a maternal knee-jerk fear reaction from this thread and my initial enthusiasm has turned sour. Then you posted this.

I needed to read MLK right now. Thank you for posting it. WE will be going now. Happily!

:hi:

[H2O Man]

183. That's good.

Fear is a funny thing. I used to study how fear limited people, when I was employed as a psychiatric social worker. And I used to watch fear even before that, when I was a young man who loved to box. There was a legendary trainer named Cus D'Amato, and he used to say that both the coward and the hero feel the same fear. The coward let's it defeat him/her, while the hero uses it to fuel his/her victory.

Sometimes on train rides, parents find the opportunity to talk to kids about the most important of life's lessons. You have two lucky little boys. Thank you.

[DoYouEverWonder]

139. I disagree

The DC Police have been dealing with demonstrations for decades and they have a good reputation. DC is not MIAMI or any other town that is not use to such things and have a more hot headed police force.

Besides for the most part the people involved in the peace movement now a days are older, calmer and much more well behaved. I would feel safe bringing my son.

[troubleinwinter]

147. Cool you feel safe.

I was tear gassed in Berkeley. Not really unused to demonstrations. Think they care about kids? It was just after the school for blind children let out. Blind children all over. Gassed. Oh, but hey, it was some years ago, and you feel safe.

I wouldn't do it. But that's just me.

[DoYouEverWonder]

150. I went to all of the Vietnam War Moratoriums

in NYC in the 70's and never had a problem. However, I've always had a good 6th sense that helps keep me out of trouble.

[spacelady]

148. I hate to bring this up, because I have thought about bringing my 9 year

old daughter to a rally, but I remember feeling sick seeing anti- abortionists bring their kids to protest at clinics. These people believe wholeheartedly in their cause. I am NOT comparing the merits of either cause, just saying that including young children is not in the children's best interest. Not including young adults in this area.

[Telly Savalas]

154. Remember all the picture posts from the numerous protests...

on the last anniversary of the invasion? They all looked pretty damn peaceful and kidsafe to me.

[troubleinwinter]

158. If you are arrested

what happens to your child when you're in jail?

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

165. Lol, im 14

and I'm more likely to be arrested before my parents. But i think if u use the kids as leverage, the police might let u go long enough to run off, or at least find someplace for ur kids.

[troubleinwinter]

166. A father's story of his kids pepper sprayed at peaceful protest...

We brought our children to a peaceful protest. We stayed in the back and we were walking on the sidewalk....Police quickly moved up behind us and a moment or two later sprayed pepper spray into the crowd.... The crowd ran toward us to escape the spray....

As the crowd pressed toward us, I yelled to him to let us through because we had three small children. He looked at me, and drew out his can from his hip and sprayed directly at me. I was at an angle to him and the spray hit my right eye and our three year-old who I was holding in my right arm. In the same motion he turned the can on my wife who was holding our 10 month old baby and doused both of their heads entirely from a distance of less than 3 feet. My six year old daughter was holding my left hand and was not hit directly....

...As we passed, the officers were laughing and said something to the effect of, "That’s why you shouldn't bring kids to protests".

http://www.babybloc.org/writings.html

[lonestarnot]

167. My kid is going! And that is that!

[patrioticliberal]

168. kick

Sad, but probably right Ben :(

[northzax]

169. it's all very sweet

that you think anyone cares enough to bother with this protest. It's a nice gesture to do, but a million people before the war didn't make a difference, why do you somehow think that anyone in the administration gives a damn about what you have to say? Why bother making the protest turn violent, they have nothing to gain and everything to lose.

Second, the DC cops, Park Police and, yes, the Secret Service, are the best protest police units in the world. There have been some times in the past few years when they have crossed the line, but never with violence. We have these protests all the time, people come in, trash the city and then move on. You will notice that everyone in DC will simply yawn, and if possible, get out of town, simply to avoid the headaches. But the only violence will be that which you bring with you, and if you bring violence and destruction with you, I'll shoot you myself. :)

Come, assemble peacefully and go home. If you see someone commiting violent acts, TURN THEM IN. If you can't assemble peacefully, stay home and trash your own city.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

172. Im wondering....

I usually carry a small (2-3 inch blade) pocket knife for general use i.e. opening boxes, etc. But im wondering if on this trip maybe i should leave it at home? While it poses no RATIONAL danger to anyone, the people that will have the blockade will most likely be the same people who say Cindy is a Nat'l Threat. Advice?

[northzax]

177. leave your knife at home

First off, you can't fly with it. Second off, you can't get into many buildings in DC with it. Third off, you don't want even the supposition that you were bringing violence with you, people in DC don't carry knives anymore. Fourth off, should you get arrested, for whatever reason, you'll never see it again.

[BlueJac]

178. It's all good

If it is peaceful like I know it will, there will be no violence from the neo-cons. :kick:

[Fatima]

182. Having been to a DC anti-war march, I'd have to agree.

Even if there's no problem with the police, these things get very BIG, FAST. You'll see lots of different groups and feeder marches blend into one big mass of humanity, and it's too easy to get separated from a child. Plus it makes for a VERY long, tiring day even if you plan on staying in an area hotel. You will be on your feet for hours and hours. You will not be able to park anywhere nearby. And the toilets are porta-johns with a long line in front of each one of them.

Just think about it at any rate.

To clarify, I am mainly talking about small ones- gradeschoolers or smaller; young teens and up should be fine as long as they understand what the day will involve.

[AnnieBW]

184. Pro-Choice March was Big and Peaceful

The pro-choice march last year was 750,000+, and it was peaceful. Yes, there was a huge police presence. But the cops in DC are used to this kind of thing. They won't bother us if we don't bother them.

That's the mistake that the anti-Globalization people make. They go around "non-violently" protesting by smashing windows and looting. Then, they whine when they're arrested by The Man. Sorry, but your right to protest stops at vandalism and violence!