Should the South have been allowed to peacefully secede?

[Gabi Hayes]

Was that Lincoln's biggest blunder?

Is this not a suitable topic for discussion?

some say that's the case

I'm just sayin.....

[aquart]

1. Do you like Europe?

We would have been multiple kingdoms, republics, tyrannies. Damn easy for a determined power to conquer.

So you tell me.

[aquart]

7. And remember, the people who advocate that policy

Are the same ones who believe the darkies were happy being slaves, because they sang and smiled so much.

[Gabi Hayes]

12. Who, after the war of 1812, had the capacity to attack us?

and, yeah, I much prefer the Europe of today, in most cases, than I do what's going on in the US

except, of course, for their rotten health care, their rotten public transportation, their rotten cars that get about 40 mpg, their rotten safety net, their rotten food, their rotten refusal to fight phony wars, their rotten life expectancies==certain exceptions apply, but that's obvious

stuff like that

[youngdem]

2. Can we secede? Form our own " nation"

[CrazyForKucinich]

48. I think the founding fathers would agree

They seceeded. Why can't we?

The Declaration of Independence basically says that when the Government turns radical something has to be done...our growing morality as a people(yes that sounds strange during these times) I believe would only leave us with the option to seceed peacefully. What is the USA going to do? Fire on its own people? That might have worked in 1860 but it sure the hell wouldn't work in 2005.

[bluestateguy]

3. Yes, but with a negotiated settlement

I'd have voted for McClellan in 1864.

[growlypants]

4. HELL YES. And if the wanna go NOW.....

I'd let em. Dont they want their own "Christian Nation" or something scary like that??? Let em have it if they promise NEVER to come out of their designated area ever ever ever again. In fact, I'd build a WALL around their "Christian Nation." Oh, and no phone calls to the civilized world either.

[BlackVelvetElvis]

6. I believe the there are some in the south would have a different opinion.

How many times do we have to have this discussion?

[growlypants]

15. I'm not saying everyone in the south is a nut or anything.

I was just saying that there is an actual group of people in South Carolina who want to suceed from the union and form their own christian nation. Sorry for any misunderstanding:hi:

[Gabi Hayes]

17. there's a more publicized bunch of loons in Texas that are farther

along than the ones in SC

maybe after the Kinkster becomes govinator, he'll pull for secession

[growlypants]

18. we can only pray. let the mexican have texas if it they want it.

They already have 3/4 of it anyway

[BlackVelvetElvis]

25. Thanks. That's the nutty "exodus" group.

Those people are freaks.

[melody]

22. southerners are not all GOP by any means

And as for this ->

>And remember, the people who advocate that policy

My people fought in the Civil War on the side of the Confederacy and not only did they not own slaves, they were the children of Scots-Irish slaves.

This was a far more complex matter than is possible to define with simple concepts.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

8. No! I'm moving to North Carolina soon! :-)

But I'd lop off Texas in a heartbeat. And it can take Oklahoma with it.

[castiron]

13. I have to say, as an Ohioan living in Texas,

that it would benefit this great nation of ours to make Texas "secede" at gunpoint and go it alone. They can take their cute vintage barbed wire antique plaques, rip off the barbes wire and use it to string along the northern border.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

27. I'm with ya, but we'd have to save Austin.

I detest those obnoxious "Don't Mess with Texas" bumper stickers!

What's that cute little town near Dayton? Yellow Springs? I was stuck with an ex in Beavercreek for a while - not too thrilled with that area.

[Bucky]

32. No more Pace Picante Sauce for you, Yankee.

And turn in all your Dixie Chick CDs now.

[growlypants]

14. Hahahahahahahaha

[NaturalHigh]

33. Everyone knows that all of us "Okies"

are toothless rednecks who vote the straight Republican ticket, right? It's nice to see your brand of "tolerance."

[WorseBeforeBetter]

46. Based on the travel I've done in this country...

"toothless rednecks" abound in a great number of states - blue, red, purple, whatever. (Are you intolerant of toothless rednecks?) It's not my brand of tolerance or intolerance; I just don't particularly care for TX or OK.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QC]

35. Yep, it's deliberate flamebait.

Also tediously unoriginal, but I guess when one's intent is just to stir shit and turn people against each other, then anything will do.

[Yupster]

37. Who is/ was Gabi Hayes

all I know the name from is an old George Carlin joke from 30 years ago about Gabi Hayes having whiskers.

[QC]

47. Christian Exodus is based in California.

Just like Free Republic.

http://christianexodus.org/index.php?module=PostWrap&page=contact&POSTNUKESID=fcd32a7f69884dd1b32a609eee7f5d38

So much for the simpleminded bullshit that passes for political analysis around here.

[eleny]

5. Well, Bernie Ward at KGO wonders if it may have been better

He brings it up every once in a while on his nightly radio program.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. he's an idiot then

i am a floridian and like living in the united states not the confederacy...

[joemurphy]

11. The Civil War --

If it hadn't have been slavery, it would have been something else.

[KittyWampus]

10. the South would have eventually sunk under the economic weight of slavery.

you own slaves, and they're your prime source of labor, you have to at least keep them fed/clothed/healthy enough to work.

Having slaves reproduce isn't practical (mothers can't do field work).

Slave trade was expensive.

No, the south couldn't have kept their economy going. The northern industrial machine would have rolled over the south eventually.

the CW just sped things up.

Wage slaves were the next step in humanity's socio-economic evolution.

[Gabi Hayes]

16. Of course, but THEY pulled out. I wonder how long it would have

taken for your scenario to have taken place on its own.

if we'd just have done the old "hitcha/splitcha" with them.....oh well, one can always engage in wishful thinking

[moondust]

39. Eventually they would have been boycotted

over slavery. The rest of the world would have shut them down.

[knight_of_the_star]

19. Hindsight is 20/20

I don't think anyone in 1861 could have forseen keeping the nation together having the impact it has had 140 years down the line.

[BillZBubb]

20. NO!

Lincoln did the absolutely correct thing. It was vital to the United States that unhindered access to the Gulf of Mexico via the Mississippi be maintained. It was vital to the United States to maintain sovereignty over the western territories.

An independent Confederacy would have been a continued nuisance to the United States. There would have been a lot of border issues about fugitive slaves. There would have been property disputes. Loyal (to the United States) Southerners would have punished while the traitors would have been rewarded.

Lincoln's major problem was he wanted to be too nice to the defeated South. Sherman had the right idea.

[Bucky]

31. Actually Sherman had Lincoln's blessing and was a Reconstruction moderate

Leniency was the right way to close that chapter. Not an utter disregard for reform, as Andrew Johnson preferred, but forgiveness and reform.

Nelson Mandella's work in South Africa has a lot of parallels in Lincoln's program for the South.

[lastknowngood]

21. I'm still up for it. Lets see how well they do on their own.

n/t

[mntleo2]

23. I Say The North Should Secede To Canada

If we took our resources and money with us, we would immediately have universal health care, peaceful living, and a much saner government already in place, as well as a hell of a lot more land. We could invite any blue people in the south to come with us as well. In my state, there are pockets of reds and I would tell them to join the south and see how far they all get without us. IMO.

My two cents

Cat In Seattle

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NaturalHigh]

26. It's so "refreshing" to see the South bashed on DU.

Gee, we never see anything like that.:sarcasm:

[QC]

29. Oh well, simple pleasures for simple minds. n/t

[Yupster]

28. I would say yes

The south should have been left to peacefully secede.

Other than the mafia, you should be able to leave any group you join, preferably by the same means.

In this case, the states joined the Constitutional Republic with a vote of their state legislatures and left the same way.

So, let's put our soothsayer hats on and guess what the world would be like today.

First thing is it would be more advanced because there's no telling what great inventions, discoveries and pieces of art, literature and music were lost because 600,000 of our best educated people were killed in the war.

I think it is very likely that the two countries would have later reconnected.

Whether they did or didn't though, I don't think the world would be very diferent. Instead of having two friendly english-speaking democracies on North America, you'd have three.

If the Confederacy did remain independant, it would be far less powerful than the USA. It would be a regional power aimed at the Caribbean, maybe with the power of France, Italy or the Ukraine. New Orleans would be a world class trading city, the most important of the Gulf and Caribbean. Cuba would likely be a Confederate state.

Slavery would have been gradually ended about the time Brazil ended theirs -- maybe based on the Jamaican model, and maybe sped up by northern money.

Harry Turtledove would be writing what if books based on how the world would be if there had been a Civil War, and they'd be as implausable as his current ones are.

That's my guesses anyway.

[Bucky]

30. Hell no. The Yankees kicked our asses and I for one am grateful for it

The country was won by the blood sweat and steel of all Americans and its bounty belongs to all Americans, including the descendents of all the Indians we killed and displaced (sorry about that, guys). To let one renegade band run off with the goods because they're the ones who happen to be sitting on it at the time makes about as much since as letting yhe Republicans keep the White House because they're the ones who happen to be sitting there when the voting machines get programmed.

[wli]

36. I wish the northwest and the northeast could go to Canada

Much like Michael Moore's "United States of Canada" vs. "Jesusland" map.

[Quixote1818]

38. I have wondered this many times

Perhaps we should secede from the south now?

[BlackVelvetElvis]

40. As far as I am concerned...

This type of thread solves nothing.
It's just a "paint the entire south with a broad brush and to hell with them". No real history is discussed, nor is it meant to. It's meant to bash residents of the south. Come on, you guys know that's true!
If history was going to be discussed, a more coherent argument would've been presented, as well as a logical discussion to follow.

[WildEyedLiberal]

41. I love your username

:D

And yes, South/rural-baiting is as tiresome on DU as New England/yankee-baiting is on FR.

[NaturalHigh]

42. Many here just hate the South...

or anyone who doesn't live in the more "enlightened" areas. It burns me, but I've learned to accept that some people are just ignorant.

[QC]

44. Yeah, it's hit 'n run flamebait.

Notice how our master baiter hasn't stuck around to discuss anything. Just pitch the turd into the punchbowl and run. I think I've seen that strategy before. Hmmm.

And why, I wonder, would someone want to cultivate division around here? Who could possibly benefit from that? Certainly not DU, Democrats, or progressives. Gee, this is really puzzling, isn't it?

Not.

[UTUSN]

43. I Ain't Touching This, Tho I'm Being Severely Baited n/t

[mitchum]

45. Well, I wouldn't be able to read the words on this shiny magic thing...

in front of me, if those landowners and their peckerwood dupes had their way :)

[Moderator]

49. Locking

This topic is and continues to be pure flamebait and acts as an open invitation for people to engage in South-bashing.

DU Moderator