Citizen spook:TREASONGATE: The Challenge of 18 USC 794...

[dbeach]

Light me up on dis one..or dis me lightly..

http://citizenspook.blogspot.com/

TREASONGATE: The Challenge of 18 USC 794...
CHALLENGE TO JOE WILSON:

“Naming her this way would have compromised every operation, every relationship, every network with which she had been associated in her entire career. This is the stuff of Kim Philby and Aldrich Ames.”
That was Joe Wilson speaking to David Corn in The Nation on July 16th.Joe Wilson, if he does not want to remain looking like an obvious Bush facilitator of Treason, should demand the Bush administration be prosecuted under 18 USC 794 for Treason since that is the law which sent Aldrich Ames away to prison for life.

CHALLENGE TO DAVID CORN and "THE NATION":

"Corn then published a detailed exploration of the law to ensure that other journalists, as well as regular readers of The Nation, understood all of the legalities involved."

(From Page 349 of Wilson's book, "The Politics of Truth".)

David Corn, you are challenged to publish a genuine "detailed explopration of the law to ensure that other journalists, as well as regular readers of The Nation", understand all of the legalities involved, particularly 18 USC 794 which you have ignored?




This is a very simple issue. We have laws against Treason, why won't the the main stream media or the main stream blogosphere discuss the law our Government has enacted to punish Treason?"

CS also challenges DU..Blogs...ect...

[whistle]

1. It isn't treason when BushCo and rethugs do it

[dbeach]

2. ya rt on that one

its called bushness as usual from the coward from crawford

[indepat]

3. Simple: the MSM are not going to make waves when neocons are involved

for the MSM mission is to propagate the neocon propaganda, not expose them.

[dbeach]

5. oh yeh

MM is as AWOL as der fuhrer from the Bama Air Guard

What did ever happen to his records..MM rushed past that one after a few liberal offerings

[Burried News]

30. This is why pushing the Judy Miller angle is important.

They would like to quietly get her out of the limelight. Judy Miller is bait. It forces some of the MSM to get in the limelight and be associated with the Treason. They want to escape by admitting they could have done better, they failed to yadayadayada. But the issue is they had a prowar agenda and assisted in a Fraud. A fraud that supported Treason.
Judy Miller makes them cover a story they don't want to cover.

[1monster]

4. Treason never prospers

"Treason doth never prosper; what's the reason? For if it prosper, none dare call it treason." Sir John (1600)

[dbeach]

6. how is this one??

quote by St. Joan of Arc: "I fear nothing, except treason."

[seemslikeadream]

7. Theirs the shame and hers the glory

Vanished Like The Snow

Tell me, where did Helen go?
This is where she had her dwelling
She has vanished like the snow
Where there is no way of telling
This is where she had her dwelling
And the while they come and they go
Where there is no way of telling
She has vanished like the snow

What became of Heloise?
Abelard, he was her lover
Once they lived in Saint-Denis
Where they've gone, I can't discover
Abelard, he was her lover
All the while they come and they go
Where they've gone I can't discover
They have vanished like the snow

Joan came riding from the rain
Everybody knows the story
England burned her in the rain
Theirs the shame and hers the glory
Everybody knows the story
All the while they come and they go
England's shame and France's glory
When she vanished like the snow

Where's the times and where's the places?
That is what I'd like to know
For they gloried in their graces
When they vanished like the snow

Solas

[dbeach]

8. Britain still ain't learned their lessons

1776
1812
civil war
sucking us into WW I and WW II all for the glory of her crown
and now the boy/god/king sits in power .
cousin to the throne on both sides of the family .
BUT its just another day in bushvakia .
MM still AWOL!!

[Burried News]

33. " MM still AWOL" Judy Miller proves some of them were involved

in Treason. And if that story can be made to grow perhaps the public will take it further and say it wasn't just outing Plame that was Treason. There was a plan to assist the executive in a fraud and fix the intell. It is a complicated story, but so was Watergate. What are the odds? Less than 50% because the DLC does not want to pursue this.

The following exchange is at the end of the link.

http://boadicea.mydd.com/story/2005/8/10/215820/078

"CHARLIE ROSE: Some would say the following: You know, the Democratic Party is focusing on Karl Rove for political reasons, and what they ought to do is spend more time articulating new ideas about the pressing national and international issues.

TOM VILSACK: Well, I would agree that the Democratic Party has to put forward, and Democratic leaders have to put forward, a positive agenda - there`s no question about that -- and there`s plenty of opportunity for us to do that. Unfortunately, there seems to be a fixation in the national media on this particular issue, which, again, takes us away from a discussion and a debate about what this country needs to do in a wide variety ever areas.

Charlie, there are, as you know, serious and significant challenges confronting this nation. This nation needs both parties engaged in a positive debate, and frankly, my party -- everyone knows what we`re against, but it`s now time for us to tell folks what we`re for. "

[dbeach]

40. God help us

Vilsack ..wants to move on focus on the positive..yep !!change your seat on the Titanic for a close up of the glacier..

how can I even support a dem party that is allowing the repukes this much criminal behavior..??

bet sauron cheny gets in the life boat faster than bush??

I only a grain of sand and pray the oceans don't eat me..

[earth mom]

9. These guys think they can get away with treason..but...

thanks to Citizenspook and Fitzgerald-and others who shall not be named-it's looking very very doubtful that they will get away with it.

I'm not sure why people won't discuss this subject here on DU...they are consumed by fear or worry they will be made fun of for wearing their tinfoil hats. The nay sayers and disinfo posts around DU have slammed Citizenspook pretty hard.

Frankly I question the motives of those that do so-that's the way Rove and the rethugs operate.

Just Remember: Guys like Fitz DO NOT play around.

I'm a believer.

[libertypirate]

39. The focus gets distracted

If you watch it happens almost everytime... Just like Wilson putting focus on the wrong law, people can easily believe all they know is all they need to know. Then simply conclude themselves there is nothing more.

[Psyop Samurai]

10. Without getting into details...

...which folks more capable than I have elaborated here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4408976 ,

is it possible that the public ruse regarding the treason statutes (assuming this is correct) proceeds from some sort of "deal" having already been worked out by the PTB, designed to "soften the blow" (in their inestimable wisdom) to the country?

Could Wilson & Co. be cover-up artists, but not aligned with Bushco? Might some whitewashers simply consider it their duty to "protect" the sheep and maintain profit flow?

[dbeach]

11. challenge all info

and Maybe by a long shot the TRUH comes out.

I say all is possible including scam artists if thats what wilson is

PROFIT being the key word..how many capitalize on another smisery?

I wonder if the fall of the house of bush is already written and waiting for that FAMOUS day..Now that would be a best seller to most of the liberals

[radio4progressives]

12. This is ominiously close to a theory a friend of mine tries to convey

you said:

"Could Wilson & Co. be cover-up artists, but not aligned with Bushco? "

that's what my friend says - his theory is that we (the anti-war/liberal/progressive community) are all being duped to rally around his "cause" in order to make certain that a law gets passed which will force journalists to identify their sources (whistleblowers, etc) or face prosecution and time in prison.

In other words, he's trying to get me to understand that the goal was to raise the stakes on the public war against Judith Miller (for her role in establishing a phony justification for going to war in Iraq) in order to get the Public to go along with legislation that confidential sources will no longer be allowed for journalists.

IOW, that the liberal and progressive communities are being herded like sheep into acting as the "coalition of the willing" in enabling the CIA and intelligence community to destroy the first amendment as it applies to a free press which is absolutely required in a free and open society.

He's saying this is Wilson & Co.'s actual agenda - and if we allow this to take place - that will be the end of a free press forever.

and it will be our fault.

He's saying that we in the progressive/liberal community are so blinded by our collective hatred for Judith Miller, that we're failing to see the forest for the trees, that our inability to separate issues of principle against emotional issues prevents us from taking the correct course of action and this has been our collective failing (one of many)through out the decades.

I'm still mulling this one over - I'm not quite ready to say with certainty that Wilson & Co are working us. But i take my friend's point on the principles of a free press - and how we can't allow Wilson or friends in Congress to pass a law that will mean real whistleblowers will no longer have protection regarding their identity.


"Might some whitewashers simply consider it their duty to "protect" the sheep and maintain profit flow?"

I don't know about this other issue regarding profit flow, i must have missed some important new twists or developments

[dbeach]

13. if i may?

like your pts

The MM profits from war in many ways inclduding..viewers tunign in for imbedded coverage..,then the romantic stories aka Jessica LYNCH ,not her fault and in thier direct investment of their 401s in the war machine.

Status,percs, prestige and of course thier lavish lifestles..


the media moguls have much to gain from continuing to be propagana arm of bushco and pass themselves off as legitimate reportesr/jornalist..they are neither

Its about their status quo..

MM seems to be shillin for the killin ..
and the current DC press corps is mostly compromised and in fear of the bushco mean machine

[radio4progressives]

23. I gotcha... yes whistleblowing is a cottage industry/comfortable living

[dbeach]

24. whistleblowers

are protected by the Law..wilson is not a whislteblower according to federal laws,as far as I know

sibel edmonds,mary shneider.ect..are protected as former fed employess

wilson may be indeed be a double agent and I dunno what else but whats confusion is much light gets shined on the villains yet they res till grinnin and sinnin and we are trying to pick up the pieces..

scraping the lies off whats left of the Truth.

[libertypirate]

16. No the goal is about the real crime....

The crime of destroying a clandestine operation is no different then outing a single agent. Instead of the media focus pointing to the real crime of destroying an intelligence operation/network, they are focusing on a small piece and claiming it revolves around political payback.

If you step back from the facts and think about the enormity of destroying an intelligence operation vs. one agent the focus of the media just doesn't make any sense. Wilson may be making noise about his wife, and calling for justice but he has focused attention away from laws used to convict people of crimes he is comparing his wife’s outing to. The law he sights publicly and 11 times in his book is more difficult to get a conviction and results in less punishment upon conviction.

The entire group acted to disrupt on going intelligence efforts by exposing a major operation, this is not about one person. The focus off this act of espionage and turning it into an act of revenge has made this crime political and not treason in the press.

[radio4progressives]

27. I understand., but...

You make what I always thought was the most important point in this entire imbroglio - and what should have been brought to light by well informed journalist. But as we all know, isn't the reality we're dealing with here. We have a co-opted media, both print and broadcast format.

In my earlier response, i neglected to provide a fuller explanation of what my friend's theory is based on, primarily because i'm still trying to wrap my mind around it - and it's a very convoluted plot with twists and turns, that involve Cheney and I'm not prepared to buy into it.

But let me try and briefly summarize it as coherently I as can within the limits of my ability:

Knowing that the CIA functions under a highly sophisticated level of deception that even under close scrutiny can often give the appearance they were working against their own objective, which is the point - we are supposed to unpeal those levels of deception in our analysis.

My friend believes that Wilson is involved in something of a sophisticated sting operation which also involved Cheney and is actually having the effect that was always intended.

We're all focused on the side show - when the ultimate goal, again is to promote the passage of a law that will illiminate a free press in this country forever.

Now i have a very hard time, believing Wilson would consciously be involved in such a plot - thats because I believe Wilson was honest about his own personal motive in protecting our constitution from the evil doers of this administration.

So as I argue that there is something else going on here, i am not in agreement with my friend that this was a sting op orchestrated by the CIA and Dick Cheney (together) - in order to ensure that clandestine operations will never again be leaked to the press without revealing the source.

But Wilson wants to see this law put into effect and passed.

So there in lies the contradiction and possibly deception.

[libertypirate]

37. Lets play help vs. hinder

At this point and time we only need to expose the pieces of the puzzle that keep the focus on the "crime". If we don't that is when the truth gets lost. Our goal is not to start running off in directions of who did what when why and how. We only need to examine the people who were involved in moving the "information" they new was a secret.

We don't have to examine characters and additional plot lines; they lead us away from the crime we can to prove. This is a crime in and of itself and to best expose it we need to keep examining it and searching for additional resources that provide insight into these very short periods of time were the crime of Treason was committed.

Helping is keeping the focus on the same cast of characters to expose them. It's like Cindy Sheehan and why the media has run to her side, please about giving her a voice, bullshit... That woman has a potty mouth, I have a mind for remembering details and she has made reference to her potty mouth twice. The media is flocking to her in an effort to make her crack and say something stupid; because they have nothing to bash a grieving mother with. They have managed to create a modern day hero, and now it seems they are resulting to their fallback plan. They always have a fallback, I am sure that the players in Treason Gate have them as well.

The caravan is coming to make it a circus.... Is this seeming at all transparent to you? It's not like they the "Support the President" people just dropped what they were doing and speed to the side of their man. Nope they made a big deal about their "caravan" east, there are reasons to announce your arrival days in advance, it allows your existence over time in the spotlight to lend to your credibility, to build suspense, and when support is slim pickings try to build some. I bet this lady has a book deal waiting like Joe Wilson.

[dbeach]

41. caravan east

is the same mentality that raced to FLA in 2000 to intimidate the vote counters

Its all distractions so the bush crimes get minimized and pushed to the side with a complicit MM hungry for attention and profits.

I will pray for Cindy S. and her son BUT she interviewed with Joe trippi ,money grubber,..and then ben and jerrys cohen gets in there..next the dems will offer to run her for congress like they did colleen rowley..GRAND ILLUSION.
Meanwhile many of us recognize the current situations for what it is..AT REASONOUS govt in most areas ..lootin the treasury,the civil rts,the US Constitution and smiling about their bravery and patriotism

WATCH that sauron cheny..always ready to suck up for 2 more cents and scare the world with his lex luther snarl .

Villains like these assembled together only come once in a Creation

[Polemicist]

43. There is a simple answer to that scenerio...

There is a loophole for confidentiality constraints for journalists that will protect our free press, while ensuring that criminals are properly prosecuted and can't hide behind the First Amendment.

Reporters are not bound to keep the confidentiality of sources who use the press to break the law. To be clear, that's the active act of placing information in the public domain, that's illegal. Such as National Security information.

Reporters are also not bound by confidentiality when the source lies or misleads the reporter, in order to place false or misleading information into the public domain.

True whistle blowers, leaking wrongdoing or criminal behavior of others, have nothing to fear. Real sources, providing truthful background to reporters, have nothing to fear.

People who misuse the Press to falsely smear political opponents and/or leak national security secrets, should not be granted a shield for their illegal and immoral behavior.

[bpilgrim]

21. "Could Wilson & Co. be cover-up artists," - ???

Wilson Torpedoed bush's main case for war and wants to see rove in handcuffs... how does anyone suspect him of being on the neoCON team?

peace

[radio4progressives]

31. No body is saying Wilson is Neo Con.. (good grief)

in fact i think it's pretty clear that he's not. I believe it's very clear that he was (and still is) outraged over the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

[bpilgrim]

35. that's what it sounds like...

or work'n for'em NOW :crazy:

I believe it's very clear that he was (and still is) outraged over the OUTING of his WIFE and putting EVERY SINGLE AMERICAN at risk from a WMD attack from terrorist... and sure, the illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq, but that certainly isn't unprecedented and he has been round the block a few times.

BTW: i was responding to Psyop Samurai

:hi:

peace

[nonny]

14. TREASONGATE: The Challenge of 18 USC 794...

Non-homicide crimes which may result in a federal death sentence:

Espionage (18 U.S.C. 794)

Treason. (18 U.S.C. 2381)

Trafficking in large quantities of drugs (18 U.S.C. 3591(b))

Attempting, authorizing or advising the killing of any officer, juror,or witness in cases involving a Continuing Criminal Enterprise, regardless of whether such killing actually occurs. (18 U.S.C. 3591(b)(2))

Sources: Bureau of Justice Statistics, Capital Punishment 2003 report.; Federal Death Penalty Resource Counsel Project

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=29&did=192

This is not a game folks

[dbeach]

15. WH occupunks

may end up fallin in category #1 crimes.i.e. homocide crimes

nonny from the word mother of all noni??

[nonny]

25. Homocide -- yeah, that would apply too

nonny nonny no noni

sometimes ninny

:D

[Holly_Hobby]

17. KIck

[H2O Man]

18. silly n/t

[LibertyorDeath]

19. Re silly.....If you would be so kind H2O

Could Fitzgerald use this in this case.
Yes ...No....Maybe
Is it not applicable ?

Espionage (18 U.S.C. 794)

[H2O Man]

46. There are

numerous options for Fitzgerald to use in charging a number of the people involved in exposing Plame. That includes the statute mentioned in the OP, though the single sentence by Wilson is taken out of context -- as often happens when one opts to use one sentence.

This is indeed a case that involves espionage. A few people sincerely continue to refer to it as "reason," and a few more do so for less than sincere reasons. But it is espionage.

A series of apparently coordinated threads has raised some pure nonsense. Is David Corn working for the CIA? Considering that he plays no role in the case, does it matter? The investigation is a result of three letters between the CIA and the Department of Justice. There is nothing David Corn can write, or refuse to write, that will have any effect on the legal proceedings.

Has Joe Wilson got a history with the CIA? DUers familiar with the "Plame Threads" will recall that I wrote exactly that a year ago. The fact is that many people connected to our embassy's do work primarily for, or do assignments for the CIA. The Niger trip was hardly his first assignment, a fact that destroys the White House claim his wife picked him.

There has been, in a period of over 18 years, huge tensions within the Agency over the embassy-based agents, and the unconnected NOC agents. The exposure of Plame likely wasn't over that originbally, but it certainly has played a role since.

Anyhow, the answer to your question is yes, there are almost definitely going to be charges of espionage in the Plame case.

[Me.]

52. Thank You! n/t

[H2O Man]

55. You are certainly welcome.

It is important that DUers recognize that the Rovian lying liars will not only appear dressed as right-wing hemiparasites. Some will appear before you pretending to be from the far left. They may make false claims to being old agents or civil rights attorneys or other silly things. Now isn't the time for believing everyone who claims to be a source of grand insight, and who mixes one part fact with four parts fiction. And we are starting to see more of this nonsense, as we should expect as time goes on.

[LibertyorDeath]

59. Appreciated

"Anyhow, the answer to your question is yes, there are almost definitely going to be charges of espionage in the Plame case."

Then time will tell about CS conjecture.

[H2O Man]

60. Time has

already told about his "speculation." It's nonsense that at very best can only distract from what the case is about.

[LibertyorDeath]

20. 794

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 37 > § 794 Prev | Next

§ 794. Gathering or delivering defense information to aid foreign government
Release date: 2005-08-03

(a) Whoever, with intent or reason to believe that it is to be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of a foreign nation, communicates, delivers, or transmits, or attempts to communicate, deliver, or transmit, to any foreign government, or to any faction or party or military or naval force within a foreign country, whether recognized or unrecognized by the United States, or to any representative, officer, agent, employee, subject, or citizen thereof, either directly or indirectly, any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, note, instrument, appliance, or information relating to the national defense, shall be punished by death or by imprisonment for any term of years or for life, except that the sentence of death shall not be imposed unless the jury or, if there is no jury, the court, further finds that the offense resulted in the identification by a foreign power (as defined in section 101(a) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978) of an individual acting as an agent of the United States and consequently in the death of that individual, or directly concerned nuclear weaponry, military spacecraft or satellites, early warning systems, or other means of defense or retaliation against large-scale attack; war plans; communications intelligence or cryptographic information; or any other major weapons system or major element of defense strategy.
(b) Whoever, in time of war, with intent that the same shall be communicated to the enemy, collects, records, publishes, or communicates, or attempts to elicit any information with respect to the movement, numbers, description, condition, or disposition of any of the Armed Forces, ships, aircraft, or war materials of the United States, or with respect to the plans or conduct, or supposed plans or conduct of any naval or military operations, or with respect to any works or measures undertaken for or connected with, or intended for the fortification or defense of any place,

***********(This part gets my attention.)************


or any other information relating to the public defense, which might be useful to the enemy, shall be punished by death or by imprisonment for any term of years or for life.

(c) If two or more persons conspire to violate this section, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each of the parties to such conspiracy shall be subject to the punishment provided for the offense which is the object of such conspiracy.

********************************************************************



(d)
(1) Any person convicted of a violation of this section shall forfeit to the United States irrespective of any provision of State law—
(A) any property constituting, or derived from, any proceeds the person obtained, directly or indirectly, as the result of such violation, and
(B) any of the person’s property used, or intended to be used, in any manner or part, to commit, or to facilitate the commission of, such violation.
For the purposes of this subsection, the term “State” includes a State of the United States, the District of Columbia, and any commonwealth, territory, or possession of the United States.
(2) The court, in imposing sentence on a defendant for a conviction of a violation of this section, shall order that the defendant forfeit to the United States all property described in paragraph (1) of this subsection.
(3) The provisions of subsections (b), (c) and (e) through (p) of section 413 of the Comprehensive Drug Abuse Prevention and Control Act of 1970 (21 U.S.C. 853 (b), (c), and (e)–(p)) shall apply to—
(A) property subject to forfeiture under this subsection;
(B) any seizure or disposition of such property; and
(C) any administrative or judicial proceeding in relation to such property,
if not inconsistent with this subsection.
(4) Notwithstanding section 524 (c) of title 28, there shall be deposited in the Crime Victims Fund in the Treasury all amounts from the forfeiture of property under this subsection remaining after the payment of expenses for forfeiture and sale authorized by law.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000794----000-.html

[darkworkz]

22. The answer is yes...

This is the law.

KICK.

[libertypirate]

38. Yep it means exactly what it says it does....

I also think intent does not have to be proven to meet the standard of this law.

[windbreeze]

26. Can any of us state...

unequivocally....that we have not found ourselves going WHAT?? Did they allow us, nay direct us, to focus on her, to cover something bigger? Is it possible?..these people all knew they were NOT permitted to discuss these things among themselves, let alone with the press.....I find it curious that J.Wilson, if the story we've been told, is true, isn't demanding they apply the strictest letter of the law possible, to punish those responsible...

The day we stop asking questions...is the day they have succeeding in silencing our voices, and we begin to die..I say CS is onto something bigger than we bargained for..
windbreeze

[dbeach]

29. always liked a cool breeze on a hot summer day

and where bushco is going..I hear there ain't too many breezes BUT IT PLENTY HOT!

like my ma used to say; "..serves him rt"

[LibertyorDeath]

32. Welcome to DU

"The day we stop asking questions...is the day they have succeeding in silencing our voices" :toast:

[Independent_Liberal]

28. Kick!

[nashville_brook]

34. nicely done to citizenspook: this cuts thru the noise!

[Burried News]

36. Self Delete

[Polemicist]

42. Interesting article...

But all the tangents that are discussed, just don't link together in any rational fashion. There are some very real truths, mixed with very unreal speculation.

The primary "rabbit hole" this article goes down, is the "prosecution in the media" angle. All the discussion about the Intelligence Agents Identity Act in the press has never been important in the least. It's not going to be important. Thus this "clarion call" by Citizen Spook really does little to advance anyone's aims, other than perhaps to familiarize some readers with the Espionage Act.

Anyone that has seriously followed this case, has known for some time that the operative law that was broken was the Espionage Act, not the Intelligence Agents Identity Act. It doesn't matter what the speculation is in the press. All that matters is will
Fitzgerald ask the Grand Jury for indictments under the Espionage Act. He certainly should, as it's apparent this act was violated.

But not by Joe Wilson, Valerie Plame, and David Corn. The argument that Joe and David outed Valerie was is a fantasy the righties first put forward. Novak's article named Valerie Plame and mentioned her position as an CIA operative in WMD. That's as out as you can get. The barn door was wide open and the cows were in the corn.

Now, there might have been reasons for the Bushies to have blown Plame's network, unrelated to political revenge against Joe Wilson. With all the Iran-Contra crooks in the Bush Administration, it's hard to say what kind of ops were being run by the NSA or the White House or the Pentagon. If the CIA had stumbled onto illegal activities by US officials, then that might have been motivation to take down the network. Who knows?

[Beam Me Up]

44. I would like to see CitizenSpook reply to your analysis.

I'm a 'know nothing' and the first to admit it so far as the law is concerned. I do find CS's presentations not only interesting but persuasive. But I'm not necessarily going to jump to any conclusions, one way or the other. I do think it is very odd that no one but CS is talking about Code, 18 USC 794. But you are right, it doesn't matter what the talking heads talk about--they are irrelevant entertainment for the 'know nothings' like me. As you say, "All that matters is will Fitzgerald ask the Grand Jury for indictments under the Espionage Act."

But what if he doesn't?

[Polemicist]

45. I'm no legal eagle either....

And I didn't know at first that the Espionage Act was the real law that was violated in the Plame Affair. I read about it, first in some blogs, then....in the media. I've felt this was the Law the FGJ was tasked with for some time now.

The press has been behind the best blogs on this story. When the media picked up on the Espionage Act, and when I first became aware of it, was when people started reporting on the State Department Memo being the original source of Valerie Plame's identity of the leak. Spook's contention that this hasn't been reported in the media, isn't correct. It just hasn't been reported deeply or broadly.

When the blogs and media discussed the State Department memo, I learned about the "National Security Agreements" that all high government officials sign. Agreements that disclose to them and warn them of the operative laws that protect our nation's secrets. Including of course the Espionage Act.

I too first went down the "Media trial" and "Intelligence Agents Identity Act" rabbit holes. But it doesn't take much thinking and analysis of what Fitzgerald is doing to conclude he's enforcing the Espionage Act.

The tipoff was the 8 pages of redacted information in Fitzgerald's statement to the Appeals Court Judges, that allowed him to jail for contempt the reporters that didn't testify. The Judge's public comments about the overriding National Security interest, tipped me off that they aren't going through all this to pursue an iffy case based on the 1982 Intelligence Agents statute. They are all in for the 1918 Espionage Act violations.

I think Citizen Spook is throwing as much against the wall as he can, for much of what he says the evidence is quite thin. There's always the chance he just knows much more than the average bear, but can't really spell it all out. I think his rationale is to push prosecution based on the Espionage Act, to the forefront in the Media, to push Fitzgerald to go that route.

Fine with me, Go Spook Go!!!!!

I just don't buy the Wilson, Plame, Corn in on the fix angle. I think they and many others in the Agency think Bush and the neocons are idiots and are screwing up our international relations and are harming our nation. Million of us agree with that sentiment.

[seemslikeadream]

48. It's in my sign line

[Just Peace]

47. CitizenSpook is onto something big...

I have been following CitizenSpook closely since the blog first appeared about 3 weeks ago, and the story is a real eye-opener.

CitizenSpook obviously knows the law quite well, the references to relevant rulings and precedents suggests that the author has studied and perhaps practiced law.

I must admit I was surprised this story had lain below the radar screen for so long, why hadn't I heard about this before, I wondered.

Of course, I don't know anything about espionage law, and so I projected my own ignorence and naively presumed that journalists and academics and former ambassadors and government officials would likewise, simply never have heard about espionage laws or Title 18 United States Code section 794(b) and all that, but when I read the extract of a standard non-disclosure agreement on Spook's blog, I suddenly realized that all these players must have known about espionage laws and the consequences of disclosing classified information... and that's when I felt a chill run down my spine.

It suddenly dawned on me, that there was a lot more to this story than I had imagined, and thanks to Spook, I was now privy to a lot of interesting and relevant information about an issue that has been bubling away just below the "collective consiousness".

But I never form an opinion based on one source, so I followed and read all Spook's links and references and I googled "Plame 18 USC 794" and "Plame espionage" and I found that indeed, as Spook had noted, there was very little out there on the web about this, what seems to me to be, very big story.

Despite two years of ongoing investigations, no journalist or blogger has broken a story about the President's men committing espionage in the Plame affair. Hmmmm....

I mean, is this a BIG STORY, or not. Maybe I'm just a crazed, delusional paranoic, but I can remember trying to ignore the 24/7 coverage of the Monica affair, and it just doesn't seem to be the same universe anymore... maybe 9/11 really did change everything.

Still, as far as I'm concerned, this should be a big story.

I think it is really important to get this information out there, to bring it to the attention of the public, to raise the profile of this whole issue, and I thank Spook for his significant contribution.

I noticed LOUIS KLAREVAS discussed the applicability of 18 USC 793 in the Plame affair over at findlaw.com on the 15th of August, about a week after Spook broke this story, but there is still very little out there on the web, some blogs are picking up on it now but the MSM is still mute.

We've gotta keep pounding this message, get it out there, infuse it into the mainstream consciousness, make it impossible for the puppeteers to keep this story under wraps, because this story of treason will bring down the Bushites, the first step to ending the carnage in Iraq and restoring the Constitution, due process and equal justice before the law.

[libertypirate]

49. Nice post - Welcome to DU

[dbeach]

50. sonage ,satoge and treason are the busheviks way

espionage,sabotage and treason are what bush is all about..think of this bush as CIA directorr 74-76 and suddenly really good heroin is on the streets after it was cleaned up for a bit

poppy was also in VN or some have informed me..

drugs,weaponry,wall st. ,fraud,extortion,assassinations are the bushway of life..they have been geting away with all these crimes since sam bush sold guns to the kaiser in WW I The red,white and blueblooded traitors wrapping themselves in the flag that they detest.
TREASON to us is what bush has done..BUT they get thier rewards..

bush goal is to deliver the USA and Israel to the global elites to really get their party started like 1984.

Real IDs ,Patsy Act all designed to destroy LIBERTY and protect the status quo..

bush is a flag abuser..


I don't know if CS is for real BUT I do know bush is a coward and a chikenhawk . TRAITOR can't be too far off!!

WELCOME TO JUST PEACE
and may someday this world enjoy a JUST PEACE!!

[Polemicist]

58. There are reasons the Media passed on this story...

Or at least the mainstream media. Accusing or even speculation about a Presidential Administration involved in treason, won't get past most editors and publishers, without cold hard facts.

Those are missing in this case, as Fitzgerald has done a great job of keeping quiet what he is doing. It's not like the politicized Ken Star investigation, where he or underlings leaked to the press on a daily basis. Nope, this is a professional prosecution, run professionally.

In this vacuum of information, discussion of the Intelligent Agents Identities Act was much more palatable to the media. It was a direct connection to the action, and allowed for speculation for and against guilt.

I don't think Fitzgerald gives a fart about the media or politics. I think he only cares about the law and lawbreakers. A nightmare for the Bushies. Only when this story breaks from the FGJ, with indictments under the 1917 Espionage Act, will the broadcast and major print media focus on that law.

But if you google Plame, Espionage Act, and Treason, you get almost 9,000 hits. People have been discussing that this is likely a violation of the Espionage Act. It's just not yet front page Washington Post. But I think it will be.

[LibertyorDeath]

61. Thanks for pointing this out

and Welcome!

[libertypirate]

63. There are reasons the Media passed...

Which is the greater crime?

The outing of a single CIA agent...

or

The outing of an entire clandestine opperation, which would expose hundreds of agents.

Why would someone in the administration want to expose an entire WMD opperation and destroy it?




Why is the Corporate Press not covering the story and focusing on one person?

There is no way to spin it that is why

[Just Peace]

68. Are the reasons the media passed on this story ...

resonable and benign, as Polemicist suggests? Do mainstream media moguls really care about "cold hard facts", do they care about "credibility", "accuracy" or the "truth"?

And what value does knowledge have, anyway? Is society better off in the dark, ignorent of government wrong doing? Should we all just bury our heads in the sand and place blind trust in our governments?

No doubt, that is what the ruling elite would like, make it easy for the powerful to manipulate, deceive and exploit the general public.

Fact is, the IIPA is no more directly applicable to the Plame leak than any of the other statutes refered to in the standard non-disclosure agreement. Anyone can find a copy of a standard non-disclosure agreement, and it is spelt out quite clearly enough for a lay person like myself to understand.

To say, "oh well that law is too difficult to understand and too obscure to interest anyone" is patently absurd - the law states quite clearly, to knowingly disclose classified information that could be harmful to national security in a time of war is a crime punishable by death.

We know Rove conspired with journalists to expose the identity of a CIA operative, knowing that information to be classified, and fully aware that information would give aid and comfort to the enemy and harm US national security, in a time of war.

This is all a matter of public record, it is not mere supposition, as in "there can be no doubt Iraq has weapons of mass destruction"... no, this is an example where all the evidence is verifiable, where the case is solid, the law is clear, and yet it's NOT a story?!

Maybe there is an argument that we should really leave it up to the Grand Jury and the FBI and the Senate to investigate this story, it really is far too important for snotty nosed reporters to be messing with, they'll just trample all over the sensitivities of very important people and cause a whole lot of unnecessary discomfort for the ruling elite.

Oh dear me, there, I've said it again, ruling elite, oh, I must be one of those ranting, raving, leftist, loony conspiracy theorists out to terrorize mainstream morons ...

[Beam Me Up]

66. Welcome to DU, JP.

Yes, lets get this story out there and keep asking questions.

:hi:

[Holly_Hobby]

51. I found this comment on the CS blog

from gurn blanston:

"I am also a lawyer, and would like to point out a couple of things--

First, I've done no research myself...however, I, too, believe that Bushco may well have committed serious crimes, most notably under the US War Crimes Act...for the Abu Ghraib and other subversions of the Geneva Convention. Indeed, the smoking gun there is the Gonzales memo specifically attempting to provide the admin. cover from this law--ie, the GC doesn't apply to terrorists.

Until I read your post, I did not know of the law you cited. However, if you are correct, (and trust me, I hope you are,as we need every salvo we can muster against these fascist sons (and daughter Condi) of bitches...

But the case you cite, while somewhat encouraging, really tells us very little. First, it is merely a ruling denying a motion to dismiss, not a decision on the merits. We can't tell from this case whether the accused was convicted or not--all we know is that the court did not find any fundamental constitutional flaw that rendered the law void. The accused went to trial here--unless he pled out. We do not know if the accused was ever convicted...we only know the court did not find the law invalid, and that there must be a trial to determine guilt. So what happened?

Next, the case is twenty years old. Surely there are more recent cases which bear on the issue, many of which will cite your case--

Finally, the case is from a District Court, and thus does not control outside of its district. Any Circuit Court of Appeals or the Supreme Court is not bound to follow it. Are there other cases on the matter where the Motion to Dismiss was GRANTED? Was there an appeal? Have the Supremes ever looked at this or similar issues? Did you Shepardize the case?

I'm on your side, mon. But any law clerk who presented this to me and said it was conclusive would be sent back to the stacks (or WESTLAW or NEXIS) to address these factors. I am certain there is more to the picture, even if the additional research shows that no other court has ruled on the matter. If there are no other rulings, the District Court opinion may well be ignored by any other federal court. If there ARE other rulings, their reasoning must be analyzed and applied to the Wilson Plame affair.

I am not saying your reasoning is wrong, just that I can't accurately assess it without that additional data.

So....what d'ya say back? Can you address these questions?"

http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=14899607&postID=112472933228945115

Can the lawyers on DU confirm this person's comments?

[libertypirate]

53. I would like to see this answered as well....

[dbeach]

54. more info the better

keeping in mind that this so called 4th branch of govt allows for the citizenry to hold corrupt govt officials accountable..
My bet is CS will answer this attorney and I am not apologist for CS.
I have earned my rt to make my own decisions as have ya all.

[libertypirate]

56. I sent quesitons...

to my representatives...

Why is Joe Wilson so focused on the IIPA?
The law to the best of my knowledge has only been used once, in 2002. Joe said "this is the stuff of Aldrich Ames", why then has he focused away from the laws that convicted Ames?

Wilson has become a voice for justice, but largely the story remains focused around him and his wife while the press completely ignores the BIGGER more disturbing crime.

I am not sure but someone might want to do a FOIA to see if Joe Wilson ever signed a NDA. His book making reference to Aldrich Ames, the IIPA law almost a dozen times, but he never mentions the law Ames was convicted.

Could you address any of this?

[dbeach]

57. ask CS

I am just spinnin like most

[libertypirate]

62. Already done....

[Beam Me Up]

65. Welcome, Holly Hobby

Thank you for bringing this to our attention. Like the post that you quote, I'm on CS's side and want to see the stiffest penalties applied to what looks to me like nothing less than treason at the highest levels of our government. However, not being an attorney, it is difficult to evaluate the claims being made.

One of the things I love about DU and forums like it is that I get a LOT of differing opinions about important matters such as this -- and this helps me make up my own mind.

Again, welcome to DU.

:hi:

[robertpaulsen]

64. Kicked and bookmarked.

Citizenspook writes long columns, but they're usually very rewarding.

:kick:

[darkworkz]

67. This needs another...

KICK.