I never served in the Military. Does my opinion count?

[maxsolomon]

Seems like the only people with any standing in the debate over the war are those who were or are in the Military, and their families. If Cindy Sheehan's son had been a private catering contractor in Iraq, would anyone care what she says?

I graduated high school in 1981. I never served. With Reagan in office by the time i could vote, I never even considered it for a minute. In the wake of the draft, I thought those who volunteered were jingoistic fools or poorly educated victim. And their parents hadn't learned a goddamn thing from Vietnam.

I haven't changed my mind much. I feel like our military is bloated by a factor of 4 & bankrupting us morally & financially. There is no concievable way that we will ever have to fight Arabs "in our streets". We have never been seriously threatened in our territory, even during WW2. Yet i constantly get to read how the Military is "protecting my freedom to dissent", and "the strong fight so the weak are safe". Bullshit.

So, "Military Families", I guess I'm not a patriot. Do i get a say?

[Jara sang]

1. I feel the same way...

In this country, if you aren't pro-military then you are labeled anti-American. When did blood lust become the litmus test for patriotism? The whole thing is disgusting to me.

[B Calm]

2. I'm a veteran and think you have a right to an opinion. Like you,

I know for a fact the military budget is bankrupting this country.

[ironman202]

3. Do you pay taxes? Then you have standing EOM.

[electron_blue]

7. I know what you mean.

I also graduated in 1981 and have similar thoughts. Never considered enlisting. Coincidentally, my father was career-military and I find people care more about my opinion when they find that out, including his tours in the Vietnam and Korean wars. I don't see why they should all of a sudden care when they find that out, but they do. It's as if you're either in the club or out of it and only club members have legitimate opinions.

What Bush is doing in Afghanistan and Iraq endanger my and my family's lives here in the U.S. I have every right to voice my opinion and it seems like a responsibility, in fact.

[underpants]

10. You don't have to pay taxes. Yes your opinions count.

Amendment XIV

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

HELL you don't even have to be a citizen

[charlie]

4. Are you a chickenhawk?

No? Then there isn't a problem. Rage away, good man!

[Big Kahuna]

5. When your government presumes...

to perform immoral actions in YOUR name, with YOUR tax money, you have every right to speak out, whether you've served in the military or not!

[maxsolomon]

6. Thanks all

i'm VERY ANGRY today.

[SmokingJacket]

8. Of course it does. However, since it's military people dying right now...

it makes sense that their opinion is getting a bit more attention at the moment.

I'm a pacifist, never served and would flee the country before I gave up my sons to the Iraq war, but I'm really glad that military families are in the forefront of the current protest. It's much harder for the general public to dismiss their views than it is to dismiss those of a sandal-wearing liberal like me. It's just the way it is right now -- even if my tax dollars are just as good.

[atreides1]

9. Sure you get a say, but others get a say as well.

I wore a uniform for 13 years, from 1978-1991, so that you could have the right to speak your mind. I would defend your right to free
speech just as I would defend the right of a Nazi, a Communist, or a
Klan member. But the minute they start talking about using violence
well then I would feel compelled to stop them.

By the way, not all of us were jingoistic fools or poorly educated, some of us actually enlisted because we believed in defending our country and the rights that all Americans should have.

I'm not really sure if you are a patriot, not really sure if any of us are patriots, at least not according to this definition: Patriot-
one who loves his country and zealously supports its authority and
interests.

By that definition, I don't think too many of us are patriots, but you are an American, and the Constitution guarantees all Americans
certain rights, and that's good enough for me.

[Alcibiades]

11. We're all patriots

though we often disagree on the extent to which that authority ought to be exerted and what the correct understanding of those interests is. If conservatives get a monopoly on patriotism, the nation is doomed.

[maxsolomon]

18. Why do Military people think they're defending the right to free speech?

isn't the protection of that right mainly the responsibility of domestic authorities? the FBI, Justice Dept., local authorities.

not to be an asshole, but do you still believe that this is what you did while you were in the service? after all, what foreign government is attacking our constitutional rights?

[atreides1]

29. Not all, just those who still believe in the oath they took.

The domestic authorities do not defend free speech or any part of the Constitution, they enforce the law of the land. If they were truly responsible for defending free speech or any other part of the Constitution you wouldn't see tear gas at a peace march.

The FBI, Justice Department, and local authorities don't give a rats ass about defending any part of the Constitution, if it prevents them from making a case. They'll use it to defend the crooked among them, but if they can get away with denying it to anyone charged with a felony crime they will, not all, but some do.

Maybe I'm just different, the oath I took was to defend the Constitution against all enemies, both foreign and DOMESTIC. So you see I did not swear to defend the government, nor did I swear my allegiance to the President. In my opinion I am duty bound to protect
the Constitution from this government if it should decide to attempt
to take away the rights that are guaranteed by it.

It is the responsibility of all Americans to defend the Constitution, not just the military, are you willing to defend the right of free speech and all of the other rights, with your life if
needed? I know I am, just as I would give my life to defend my family and friends.

[maxsolomon]

30. historically, the military never intervenes domestically

except in the case of the national guard, of course. and those troops are under executive control of state governors, correct?

i appreciate the oath, but outside of the civil war, where are the domestic enemies?

[Rebellious Republican]

12. Absolutely, thats why I served, so that you could voice your opinion.

I am not flaming you, the military is not for everyone, and everyone that is in the military, are their for their own personal reasons. My case was economic, I came from a one stop light town in rural KY. Not the best school system, no scholarships or trust funds in my future. Was pumping diesel fuel at a truck stop. Not many options for me, and I would guess for many of those serving today.

But hero's and patriots come in many forms, not just the military. School teachers, clergy, songwriters, construction workers, anti war activists, just about anyone from all walks of life have important contributions to make. Some of the most unassuming, least expected people(ie., Woody Guthrie, Cindy Sheehan, Gandhi, MLK)make some of the best hero's and patriots.

So yes your opinion does count, opine away friend.

A Veteran :toast:

[mmonk]

13. Though I believe vets

are getting short changed in this country, of course your opinion counts whether you served or not. Look at all the politicians that didn't serve and all the talk show hosts that that didn't serve, etc. Look at the president and most repubs. and the neocons.

[lonestarnot]

14. Absolutely your opinion counts!

[stanwyck]

15. Marine mom here

and of course your opinion counts.
Who I totally loathe are those that are so hungry for war, who glotify war, and screech their "whup ass" attidudes...yet chose not to serve.
I was in high school during Viet Nam. It loomed heavy over our heads. My brother had a college deferment. Thank God. I'm glad he did. If I'd been of age, and male, I would NOT have wanted to go to Viet Nam.
Cheney, Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Lott, DeLay, and countless others felt the same way as I did. They sought repeated deferments.
Fine.
But to listen to them now rage for war is disgusting. They don't have the perspective of Kerry, Gore, Hagel, or McCain. Those men don't glorify war. They know the reality.
My son is on his second tour. He may have to do a third.
So. I find the chickenhawks who squawk out the false machismo blather about war totally offensive.
And dangerous. They want other people to die to stoke their false bravado.
They're not patriots. They're pathetic.
Barbara Rush has 17 grandchildren. Not one has enlisted.
OK.
But unless the Bushes are willing to put their lives on the line, they need to think more carefully about using phrases like "Bring It On!" and "Mission Accomplished".
War should be the last resort. The very last. Careful consideration must be given.
This nationalistic cheerleading is wrong.
I hate it.

[unhappycamper]

16. You have every right to speak out.

Lack of military service is not a dis-qualifier. I endured two trips to RVN, and your vote/voice counts the same as mine.

There are some subjects I can speak about from knowledge/experience that you may not have. But on the flip side, you can speak from knowledge/experience that I do not have.

Use your First Amendment rights early and often!

[NoAmericanTaliban]

17. Congrats! You too can become a war planner...

since you do not have any military experience. Remember the Neo-Cons did not serve in the military, but they all became 'war planners' & the irony is that they have more say than those that served. They are nothing but a bunch of Chicken Hawks wrapping themselves in the flag. They would be the first to run is they actually saw any combat. Remember Cheney & Bush hiding after 9/11. Look at Bush now hiding from a grieving mother. If anyone questions your lack of military experience you can always tell them that you had other priorities just like the VP.

[newyawker99]

27. Hi NoAmericanTaliban!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Toots]

19. Sure what is your opinion on the M113 compared to the M114

:shrug:

[maxsolomon]

20. i'll wait for the M115

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Canadiana]

22. I don't mean to speak for the poster,

but I think he meant that at that time when he deciding not to enlist,that was his opinion of those who DID enlist...at the time.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pepperbelly]

24. sure ...

and, do you believe that your opinions on military policy has as much intrinsic value as those with more knowledge and experience on the subject?

Case in point ... whose opinion regarding military requirements for an invasion of a country? Powell or Pearle?

Or, for that matter, Clark or Lieberman?

[bribri16]

25. Neither did Bush, Cheny, Rush, Hannity and half the Republican party.

Their opinions count so why shouldn't yours?

[fedupinBushcountry]

26. Everyone has a right to their opinion

and the right to disagree which I do with one statement you made.

"In the wake of the draft, I thought those who volunteered were jingoistic fools or poorly educated victim. And their parents hadn't learned a goddamn thing from Vietnam."

This statement is not fair. Many chose to join the service of their choice instead of being drafted. My husband was one, there was a lottery system, and you never knew when your number would come up. My husband (boyfriend at the time, he was 19) did not want to go in the Army and he didn't want to wake up to your in the Army now.He joined the Navy in 1970. He served 2 tours of duty in Vietnam. He did his duty and retired in 1990. He has a college degree, he had 2 years of college before he joined and got very well educated in the Navy.

For you to think those who joined where uneducated and jingoistic is, that is totally nonsense. My husband was totally against Vietnam, Gulf War 1 and this total sham now. It makes my heart hurt when people think just because you where in the military, you love war, that is not the truth.

So have your opinions, but don't bring down others just to make your point.

[Catchawave]

28. As long as you aren't a convicted felon.....

You have every right to your American Freedoms, including your opinion! :hug: