I need the MIHOPers and LIHOPers to explain something to me...

[The Night Owl]

We all know how Mr. Bush loves to grandstand... The USS Abraham Lincoln landing extravaganza... The Thanksgiving Day trip to Baghdad extravaganza... Bring it on... etc. So, if Bush, the grandstander-in-chief, had advance warning or knowledge of the 9/11 attacks, then why didn't he try to appear large and in charge on that day? In other words, if Bush was following a prearranged script on the day of the 9/11 attacks, then why did he agree to play the role of a deer caught in headlights?

[Endangered Specie]

1. Well the simple answer to this is...

MIHOP and LIHOP are false... Of course, by saying such, I will likely be accused of a number of things in short order.

[jayctravis]

42. Hypothetically, he could not have been in on the inner loop.

If one wishes to imagine out either HOP scenario, * could have had a general idea what was going to happen, but he was left out for plausible deniability. Could be the way to manipulate a normal person and cause a definite and real reaction for cameras. The video of the reading to children would then be the best possible place a peaceful President would be when "horra" strikes our nation and gets replayed on the evening news. The uncomfortably long pause might have been something they didn't count on. A President is given the benefit of the doubt about handling public speaking etiquette and situations. They probably didn't think they'd have to drag him out.

[The Night Owl]

46. MIHOP and LIHOP don't make sense to me either...

An administration that is cruel and brazen enough to attempt LIHOP or MIHOP to push its agenda wouldn't have had a need for LIHOP or MIHOP.

[moodforaday]

47. Another answer is

that Bush was not part of a LIHOP or MIHOP. I for one do believe he had absolutely no idea what was going on. I mean, if you were involved in LIHOP-ing an attack like this, would you tell this guy? I think Bush was kept in the dark because it was his role to act surprised and he'd never have been able to fake that.

But in general, what is it about LIHOP that doesn't convinve you? What about the insider trading, what about the multiple warnings from FBI agents whose investigations were blocked, what about as many as 15 documented intelligence warnings, some including dates and targets, from UK, Israel, Egypt, Russia and several other countries? 9-11 was meant to happen and it did happen.

As for MIHOP, the difference is quite tenuous. As Michael Ruppert points out, all there was to do was for a small number of people in the right positions to not act, not give orders, not pursue certain leads. There was no "stand down" order - this would have been too incriminating. Instead, there was simply inaction, so you can have the limited hang-out of incompetence. But if incompetence was to blame, how come not a single head rolled?

So you don't believe in LIPHOP, but you believe that multiple highly trained people at multiple agencies (FAA, Norad, Air Force, intelligence) somehow lost all their skills on that one day - skills they prove they have oh, about every day.

[i miss america]

2. I don't think they told little boots about it...only the grownups knew.

[AuntPatsy]

17. Simple logic, and I do agree with your reasoning, it is safe to assume

that in no way shape or form this guy is intelligent enough to have masterminded such a unique coup, yet he is not completely unaware of the role he is playing, so therefore, is as guilty as the rest.

[halsaxby]

37. Maybe because they didn't know if they could pull it off.

Remember 9/11 was the event that made all of the treasonous actions and flagrant bullshit, that we have become accustomed to, possible.

Think about what would have happened if the 50% of the public had said: "3000 Americans were just killed by a relative of one of Bush's closest business associates and they expect us to believe that he wasn't complicit. Bullshit, we want a REAL investigation. "

[Junkdrawer]

21. By the way, that was the conclusion that screamed out at me...

when I watched the teacher's film.

[Eloriel]

30. I agree. I think he knew a little bit, but the enormity of it was

a surprise. And if you look at those 17 minutes or so after Andrew Card whispered in his ears, there is a look of ewilderment and anger on his face: the player got played.

I also don't think he knew for sure whether or not HIS life was safe. After all, if there were forces in the govt that did this without his involvement or knowledge, what would/could they do to him? I think that's part of why he was gone from Washington all damn day, AND why he virtually slunk across the White House lawn once he did come home -- all by himself, btw, looking very alone, his eyes darting left and right as if he were looking for an assassin or something.

That man was scared. And it wasn't the terrorists who scared him.

[chimpymustgo]

55. Eloriel. We finally agree.

And probably will about more in the ensuing weeks and months.

[tg]

3. Because they thought it was going to be a simple hijack and

hostage situation. Nobody expected them to use the planes as missles. It caught them off guard and suddenly they couldn't do anything that might admit they knew something was up. -tg

[Junkdrawer]

4. One answer: snags in the plans...

Another answer: Who says they would let idiot son in on the plan?

Many, many possible answers.

[ramblin_dave]

22. For example, if Bush had been told to play dumb,

to go on with his schedule to support a "caught by surprise" cover story and to wait for instructions, he may not have been able to ad lib when something went wrong. So he just sat there in an awkward moment wondering what to do.

If all 4 planes had departed on time then they all could have reached their targets in the 15-20 minute time span that Bush's motorcade was rolling from his hotel to Booker Elementary. Such a scenario would have been enough to trigger a change in plans to get him to his plane. As it was he arrived at Booker just a few minutes after the first plane hit, not enough time to think through the best way to react. So he stuck to the plan and was not smart enough to realize how that would look later.

I'm just sayin. As an example.

[MetaTrope]

5. Or you don't suppose it might have been guilt and fear of getting caught?

[Carni]

36. That is the face of a guilty man IMO

Hasn't anyone here ever been in a position where they knew something bad was going to happen and then bingo!

It happens... but then you think *oh shit* there's no going back now

Small scale dumb example...I threw a rock at my Dad's car windshield as a kid (assuming the window would break) but wow was I surprised when it did.

Bush is an immature idiot--he knew what was going down, but the theory of it on paper, was different than the reality of it, as it was happening.

Guess I am trying to say his poker face isn't very good.

[rzemanfl]

6. They were expecting something much smaller, but they let it

happen to legitimate *'s stolen Presidency.

[wli]

7. grandstanding was done

Just not while the attacks were in progress.

[Al-CIAda]

8. He was kept clueless because he cannot be trusted.

He may know now- or not. We wouldn't want to upset the little emperor now would we?

He isn't even a member of the inner PNAC. He is a stage prop.

[Dover]

19. The pretzel and black eye incident followed soon thereafter....

hmmmmm....do you suppose he couldn't swallow the truth?

[MetaTrope]

49. He also had facial bruises from "removal of lesions" in August 2001

:banghead:

[Old and In the Way]

9. 93 was 20 minutes late in taking off. Script ruined.

Dimson does not improvise well.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NorCalDem]

18. Did I really say something so bad

that my post needed to be removed? I'm sorry, didn't mean it to be that harsh.

All I was trying to convey is that MIHOPpers and LIHOPpers aren't crazy, just unconvinced with the facts as they have been presented to us.

I think we would all agree that we have not been told the entire story of 9/11 or what happened in the following few weeks. Thanks for letting me make my point.

BinB

[bpilgrim]

31. "just unconvinced with the facts"

just keep asking questions, we'll provide the FACTS that are known.

:hi:

peace

[Fire Walk With Me]

11. Gotta smash a few eggs to make an omelette.

Empire-building isn't a pretty business.

[Frederik]

12. That is a very good point

I don't personally think Bush had any precise foreknowledge, though he like everybody else knew something was coming that fall. The evidence doesn't indicate that he knew it would happen on 9/11, at least. Others must have known a lot more. Specifically those who scheduled the wargames, mirroring what actually took place, on that very same day.

Instead of Bush, I think it is instructive to look at "vice" president Cheney, running the show in DC while Bush was conveniently out of the way. Cheney and Rumsfeld were central players in the Continuity of Government programme during the Reagan and Bush 41 administrations. They had practiced usurping power in event of an attack on US territory...

Bush was told - by Cheney - that Air Force One was a target, and that Washington wasn't safe.

[mzteris]

13. bad actor.......

he was supposed to act surprised and cool under fire and he did a piss poor job of it......??

[KerryOn]

14. The answer is simple.....

He is like the big bully why an talk toygh, but is nothing more than a wimp.

I think it shows. As you mentioned he says things like "Bring It On", but when there is an emergency he sits and reads "My Pet Goat", because in reality he is like a scared little rabbit and does not know what to do.

[Proud_Lefty]

15. It would have messed up the agenda

9/11 served multiple purposes for this administration. For starters, look at how much they relied on it for the build up to the Iraq war, for the Presidential campaign on his "war on terror" and now they are starting it up again for the build up for the Iran war. There's the gold that was removed from the WTC early that morning and, surprise, surprise, unaccounted for. There are billions of dollars in notes Bush I had due and owing either on 9/11 or the following day.

Why do you ask for logic with this administration? Nothing they do makes sense. Up is down, black is white, war is good, peace is radical, no one had any clue planes would be used as weapons on the same day that NORAD was doing drills with hijacked planes being used as weapons, a grieving mother fighting for the lives of the current troops is bringing down troops morale, etc. And the sheep continue to follow with their blinders on.

[Al-CIAda]

23. War games & The non-response of NORAD and lack of defense of the Pentagon.

The non-response of NORAD and lack of defense of the Pentagon.
Testimony of Sentor Dayton and an interview with Dr. Bowman (Lt. Col. Ret. USAF) by Micheal Kane. He discusses the war games planned that very morning at the exact time the event occured.
Powerful 15 min....

http://innworldreport.net/video/2004-08-04/dayton.html

[bpilgrim]

28. since our jets were armed and fly'n, our response time should have been

UNPRECEDENTED, as a general on duty at the time remarked.


http://news.globalfreepress.com/trifecta

peace

[bpilgrim]

16. ah, the PERFECT alibi

I wonder if karl is right & they'll never suspect a THING - the GrandStander

peace

[Ready4Change]

20. M/LIHOP Doesn't mean specifying the schedule.

In fact, to improve odds of achieving deniability, it would be better to not know the exact schedule.

Assuming either theory is valid, the Administration higher ups would have plenty enough warning to get themselves into safe positions. Cheney into the sub WH tunnels, for example.

And Bush, the bumbler, would have been kept in the dark. He also needed to be kept out of the command flow, and lime light, during the critical hours just after the attact. He needed to be coached on how to approach this new situation.

His "performance" on ground zero is lauded as inspirational. Anyone ever actually SEE it? Waddya think? Do your impressions match his reviews?

[DoYouEverWonder]

24. Because ALL of the planes were supposed

to take off by 8:01 AM.

If all of the plane had taken off on time, then the attack would have been over by 9:00 AM and Bush would have gone into action and everyone would have thought he was a hero. He never planned to get stuck in a 2nd grade classroom with his pants down.

When Flight 93 got delayed and the attack got hung up, all of the top leadership had to go into stall mode. Bush just happened to got stuck having to stall in public.

[mithnanthy]

53. Bingo!

I agree with Old and in the Way and DoYouEverWonder.......plane 93 was late and * was waiting for the final instructions. He couldn't improvise while waiting, so he just sat there....waiting. Andrew Card probably whispered how the last plane hadn't completed the mission on time...probably telling him to sit still until further notice....so he just sat, looking like the moron he is. His poll numbers were in the tank before 9/11 and I can picture him thinking..I'll show ALL of you, just how important I am about to become......(grrrrr...) Probably the same thing Bin Laden was thinking at the same time. (Two losers who wanted to be feared.)

[Cleita]

25. I've watched that footage many times and the deer in headlights

look isn't the one I see. What I see is a stupid man who gives away the fact that he is thinking that the situation happening is going down as planned. I think he was stalling because it had been planned ahead that he would be stuck in the classroom and therefore unable at that time to issue the orders only he could issue to get our fighter jets after the hijacked planes to stop them.

If you can get a copy of the clip, watch it with this idea in mind and I think you will see the darting eyes mirroring what he was thinking. It's not a deer in headlights look.

[Proud_Lefty]

26. You're are so right

He looked like he couldn't believe the dirty deed had really gone down. That's the only thing I saw in his eyes that day.

[bpilgrim]

27. his NON reaction TELLs the whole story...

NO ONE can say who they would have reacted in his shoes... we just all know we DID.


http://news.globalfreepress.com/trifecta

psst... pass the word ;->

peace

[WiseButAngrySara]

48. There is an expression that was on B*'s face when this entire nightmare

began, during the 2000 election, and he, his brother Jeb, Bush 1 and Barbara were shown live on TV, when it was announced that Gore would likely take Florida...the expression on his face was one of surprise and shock. I remember thinking that something was out of place with that look, maybe just the sheer incredulity of it; like, 'Florida? That's not possible', and I think brother Jeb actually said something to that effect. It wasn't until the election of 2004, that I became convinced that the 2000 election was rigged in some way also, and this explained his shocked expression.

The look on 9/11 was quite similar. Anyone else know what I'm talking about?

[tanyev]

50. I agree with the darting eyes.

It looked more like annoyance/irritation than deer in the headlights.

[Chocolatebison]

29. Because

he is an idiot and screwed up the script!

[tinrobot]

32. He looks like he just commited manslaughter.

He didn't know exactly what was going to happen. He just knew that SOMETHING was going to happen. Probably a hijacking, but nothing all that big. When they knocked over the towers, he knew that it had gone WAY too far.

He has the look of a kid who stole a car and went joyriding, then crashed the car and killed his best friend. It's a face of denial and guilt.

[Whoa_Nelly]

33. Didn't he watch the footage after the first plane wit the WTC?

And said something like, "Now that's one bad pilot!"

If he did watch that on TV before going into the classroom, why did he go into the classroom rather than leaving and making a move to respond to the initial hit?

[Al-CIAda]

34. Lying his ass off-

BUSH:...you're not going to believe what state I was in when I heard about the terrorist attack. I was in Florida. And my chief of staff, Andy Card -- actually I was in a classroom talking about a reading program that works. And I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower -- the TV was obviously on, and I use to fly myself, and I said, "There's one terrible pilot." And I said, "It must have been a horrible accident."

But I was whisked off there -- I didn't have much time to think about it, and I was sitting in the classroom, and Andy Card, my chief who was sitting over here walked in and said, "A second plane has hit the tower. America's under attack."



OOPS!!!
IMPOSSIBLE- It was impossible for him to have seen the first plane hit. That footage of the first plane strike (taken by french filmakers who happened to be there) was not aired but until the next day. The 'one bad pilot' comment is total fiction and may reveal something far more sinister.


Bush Caught in a Lie About the 9/11 WTC Attacks
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/bushlie.html


=====

French Filmmakers Jules and Gedeon Naudet were there to witness this tragedy. They found themselves in lower Manhattan as the attack unfolded, and they captured unique footage from the area, including the only images from inside Tower 1, where firefighters were trying to get a handle on the dangerous situation.
Their footage includes scenes of firefighters trying to escape from Tower 1 after Tower 2 had collapsed. Jules and Gedeon, who are brothers, were within a block of Tower 2 when it collapsed, and narrowly escaped death.
On Sunday, March 10 at 9 p.m., almost six months to the day after the terror attacks, CBS will broadcast 9/11 - an extraordinary film, telling the story of that day from the perspective of those who survived it. The two-hour film will be hosted by actor/director Robert De Niro.
http://www.frenchculture.org/tv/programs/naudet911.html

=====

Memory: Remember It Right?
Newsweek
Sept. 20 issue

- It's well documented that President George W. Bush was in a Florida classroom on 9/11 when chief of staff Andrew Card told him a second plane had hit the World Trade Center. But how did Bush learn about the first crash?
Two of his recollections are similar, but factually impossible. On Dec. 4, 2001, and Jan. 5, 2002, Bush told audiences he saw the first plane hit the tower on TV before he entered the classroom. But he couldn't have seen it; nobody saw it live on TV. Between those recountings, on Dec. 20, Bush told The Washington Post that Karl Rove told him. This isn't to say the president is a fabulist. He's just exhibiting a prominent example of a common memory glitch, says UCLA psychology fellow Dan Greenberg, who published a paper this summer in the journal Applied Cognitive Psychology called "President Bush's False Flashbulb Memory of 9/11/01."
Greenberg says this is more evidence that "flashbulb memories"—major events people remember "like it was yesterday"—are not as indelible as experts thought. (This was proved in a four-year study after the 1986 Challenger explosion, when witnesses dramatically altered their memories of the disaster.) Greenberg thinks Bush saw the first-tower crash footage replayed so often that it seemed as if he had seen it as it happened. Greenberg struggles to explain why Bush, having remembered events differently in his second recounting, went back to the original version. The White House declined to comment.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5970907/site/newsweek/


=====

Bush blew it the morning of 9/11

By BILL MAHER


John Kerry has waded into an issue raised by Michael Moore in his film "Fahrenheit 9/11," namely, President Bush's sitting for seven minutes in a Florida classroom after being told "the country is under attack." Republicans are waxing indignant, of course. But the criticism is richly deserved.

The fact that Bush wasted 27 minutes that day - not only the seven minutes reading to kids but 20 more at a photo op afterward - was, in my view, the most outrageous thing a President has done since Franklin Roosevelt tried to pack the Supreme Court.

Watergate was outrageous but it still did not carry the possibility of utter devastation, like a President's freezing at the very moment we needed his immediate focus on an attack on the United States.

This is an issue about the ultimate presidential duty, acting in an emergency. If nothing else in Washington is nonpartisan, this should be.

But it is not. Republicans are tying themselves in knots trying to defend Bush's actions that morning. The excuses they put forward are absurd:


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/col/story/221160p-190107c.html

[Whoa_Nelly]

44. Thanks, Al-CIAda

Amazing! I knew that info, but had not archived it (am doing that now!)

I still get a horrible feeling in the pit of my stomach when I re-read about how * didn't respond, and people were literally jumping out of the buildings because it must have seemed preferable to dying in utter terror while being caught in one of those buildings. I still feel great sorrow at about the 9/11 tragedy. And, I still feel great anger at * for stealing the election and disregarding any and all info that came his way, not to mention the debacle and utter failure of Iraq.

My hatred of Bush and the PNAC, and everyone else who has shielded this administration, soars to reach new heights of frustration.
I am sad. I am angry. I refuse to take the bullshit of defending the incompetence of those who pretend to lead, GOP or Dem, anymore.

Could there ever be a new leadership that represents and presents that we are all in this together?

We all have a stake in the future of the United States. We are united in this concept regardless of our diverse cultures and views; We are the nation. -- Whoa_Nelly 2003

[Rude Horner]

35. My two cents

That Bush look was "well, there's no turning back now"

Bush was in no way the mastermind of 911. If you look at quotes from Bush before he became president, Bush had visions of grandeur if he ever became prez. He knew he wanted to be a war president. He knew he wanted to finish the job in Iraq that poppy stopped short of. So in my opinion, all Bush was was a willing participant. He had all the PNAC'ers in place, telling him "we'll take care of the details Mr. President. Don't you worry about a thing."

And as long as we're on the subject, to me there's one vital piece of the puzzle that turns LIHOP into MIHOP. Those towers falling down sure looked like controlled demolitions to me. I believe in LIHOP AND since we knew what was going to happen, made it even worse by wiring those towers to fall. Do you remember tower #7? That building collapsed on the evening of 9/11. Hell, they even admit that tower #7 was a controlled demolition. Do you know it takes DAYS to wire buildings to fall down properly, even in the best conditions. So we're to believe that in this mass of debris and fires and dust in the air AFTER the towers fell that somehow a crew was called in to wire building #7 to collapse that evening? Highly doubtful. That building was pre-wired to go, just like the twin towers.

[AlinPA]

38. They fell down just like several controlled demolitions that I have seen.

It looked too neat.

[bpilgrim]

39. WTC7 collapse --------------- --------------------- VIDEO

http://news.globalfreepress.com/movs/wtc7.swf

peace

[JohnyCanuck]

40. How to spot a liar from take back the media.

Flash presentation. Make sure your speaker volume is turned up

http://www.takebackthemedia.com/liar.html

[titoresque]

41. He didn't

Later he said "I saw the first plane hit"
How could he have????? He was grandstanding! There are two seperate news clips of him on camera saying this...both times on TWO seperate occasions he is standing with a little boy. Which is another sick persuasion of this serial killer!

I will try to find this news footage if you'd like.
It was purposeful to say "I saw the 1st plane hit" And he probably did!!!!!!!! that sick motherfucker!

[Dynasty_At_Passes]

43. Unfortunately, Bush was out of the loop.....

He thought it was all drills, and even if he had known, he probably would have run for the hills like a coward. Yes he was convinced it was drills. Cheney and his evil minions convinced him.

[Minstrel Boy]

45. "Bush Knew" is misleading shorthand.

Bush knew nothing.

Black ops work because of compartmentalization. Bush didn't need to know, so he didn't.

[bpilgrim]

51. he knew somt'n was up

sure he didn't know the whole deal but he knew and is why he stuck to his script and didn't react at ALL.

peace

[Stephanie]

52. Plausible deniability -

Chimp just knew the terrorists were coming, and that's why they had him bouncing around away from DC. I think they LIHOP. I don't think they knew what day it would happen or exactly what was coming down. But they sure went out of their way to let it happen unimpeded.

[bpilgrim]

54. ding-ding-ding

but they knew a whole lot more than that, as well...

peace