womans rights: i wrote on another board. really, this just isnt ok

[seabeyond]

hey..... i am pissed

but..... lol, i dont want to delve into this second. just want to say, i am pissed.

democracy is not dependent on women having rights. ergo,.....then it is not dependent on males having rights. what the fuck. does that make any sense. the intellectual, academic, scholarly, please tell me how this is a correct sentence

males having rights is not necessary for democracy

or

is

women having rights is not necessary for democracy a sexist remark. because if it is, call it, damn it.

as, ladies, we allow our rights to be taken from us here in the united states. have we succumbed? is it, we dont need those silly ole rights, after all we have man to pat us on the head and say, "dont worry your pretty little brain over it.....", as barbara would say

yep

thinking us women would at least collectively say

fuck you

hence championing cindy's go home and take care of my kids????? is this for real. firstly this is for my kids, and every other kid. secondly, my kids are adults, they dont need taken care of. and third, their dad is right there.

wtf

these things are being said out loud to us. a wow

[dogday]

1. Woman's rights in Iraq would be null

If they use Islam as their guide in making laws, the women are screwed..... We need to bring this to people's attention. This is not democracy at all....

As far as things over here, they will say anything to shut Cindy up, but that will never happen, they might as well stop trying...

[seabeyond]

2. because we have already done this. once we have our power,

man cannot take it back. doesnt happen that way. cindy is going to be put down, cause......she has voice. they cannot win the argument go back to your kids. they can not win the agrument noble cause.

i look at my father, i am 43. raising my family and his sons family. and i say, why, would you suggest you can make better decision about me. not a chance. i dont buy it.

he know how stupid that argument is

the genie cannot be put back in the bottle

[dogday]

10. Absolutely you can't

I feel so bad for the women in Iraq. They cannot protest for fear of being stoned and the men don't care about that, they like the women in "their place"

[etherealtruth]

8. We need to keep repeating this ...

...despite the desire of some to "shut us up"

[dogday]

12. Always

Did you ever see the HBO special about how the women got the vote? Some of those women were put through hell literally and when the press finally got word of it, they then had the leverage they needed to get the vote....

[etherealtruth]

16. I remember be being very pregnant ...

... the weather being very bad and having a toddler ... on an election day. I decided, for once, I was not going to vote ...

I saw a PBS program that afternoon on womens suffrage ... I realized I owed it to all that came before me and all that would follow me, to get out and vote (that day and every other election day). I've never considered "sitting this one out" since that day.

[dogday]

18. Suffrage was not just a movement, it was

a painful, dreadful experience for some of those women who were force fed, they were slowly killing them....

[etherealtruth]

19. !!!!!!!!!

:toast:

[Sparkman]

14. Right. BUT, if * came out and told the whole truth, as we all know it,

then Cindy would leave TX, and shift her activism.
But the truth required to "shut up" Cindy, like...
1)we knew Hans Blitz and Scott Ridder proved at least 95% of Iraq's WMD were gone.
2)The NEOCONs' PNAC and the Office of Special Plans targeted Iraq years before Sept, 2001.
3)No Bush family in harms way and no empathy for the soldiers.
4) Cluster & 500 pound bombs in urban Iraq proved Bush's level of compassionat coservatism 5)10 years of sanctions killed hundreds of thousands in Iraq, whatever the justification.
5)Afgahnistan is sinking back into Islamic Tribalism (45% of marriages have girls under the legal 16 year age).
6)A federal Iraq may fare no better than N/S Korea, N/S Viet Nam, the U.S. Confederacy-North & South Mason-Dickson Line.
7)Women not voting is no more a democracy than a plutocracy of the propertied class, (like the U.S. form in 1776, which didn't survive).
8)LYING MILITARY RECRUITERS cause thousands of American's to enlist under delusion and fanciful idealism, only learning through first hand experience the extent of the Bush government's lies.
9)Just what is the nobel cause being served by not 1600, but 3600 U.S. soldiers dying in and immediately after leaving Iraq?

Maybe Cindy would listen if * even mentioned some of the truth.

[dogday]

17. I can't stand to listen to him

I know I would not like to see him lie in person...

[PsychoDad]

21. You mean women can't vote in any of these countries?

Here's a list of Islamic countries, most of which use Islam as a guide to their legal code. "Sharia, or Islamic law, influences the legal code in most Islamic countries, "CFR report http://www.cfr.org/publication.html?id=8034

Country Muslim Population National percentage
1 Afaganistan 18M 99%
2 Albania 2.3M 75%
3 Algeria 22M 98%
4 Bahrain .220M 99%
5 Bangladesh 100M 85%
6 Cameroon 6.2M 55%
7 Central African Republic 2M 55%
8 Chad 4M 85%
9 Dahomey 3M 60%
10 Egypt 51M 93%
11 Ethiopia 27M 65%
12 Gambia .4M 85%
13 Guinea 4.3M 95%
14 Guinea-Bissau .81M 70%
15 Indonesia 161M 95%
16 Iran 48M 98%
17 Iraq 14.5M 95%
18 Ivory Coast 5M 55%
19 Jordan 3M 95%
20 Kuwait 1M 98%
21 Lebanon 3M 57%
22 Libya 3M 100%
23 Malaysia 14.5M 52%
24 Maldive Islands 12M 100%
25 Mali 6M 90%
26 Mauritania 2M 100%
27 Morocco 24M 99%
28 Niger 4.5M 91%
29 Nigeria 100M 75%
30 Oman .75M 100%
31 Pakistan 90M 97%
32 Qatar .18M 100%
33 Saudi Arabia 10.5M 100
34 Senegal 7M 95%
35 Sierra Leone 3M 65%
36 Somalia 5M 100%
37 South Yemen 1.5M 95%
38 Sudan 22M 85%
39 Syria 11M 87%
40 Tanzania 15M 65%
41 Togo 2.1M 55%
42 Tunisia 7M 95%
43 Turkey 66M 99%
44 U.A.E .32M 100%
45 Upper Volta 6M 56%
46 North Yemen 6M 99%

Sorry, but as I recall many Muslim nations today allow their female citizens to have some level of voting and control over their local government; with a few exceptions in Brunai, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia; and Lebanon which requires proof of education for women to vote. Women in Kuwait have recently gained the right to vote, and will do so for the first time in 2007.

[ikri]

27. As far as I'm aware

Islam itself says very little that would impinge on women's rights.

Wahhabism, the branch of Islam that is practiced in Saudi Arabia and some other Arab countries, is an ultra-conservative version of Islam that limits the rights of women to little more than property.

It does not represent Islam as a whole any more than Southern Baptism represents Christianity.

[lagged_variable]

3. definitions

Clearly, if you are willing to say "women having rights is not necessary for democracy", then you must be also willing to admit "men having rights is not necessary for democracy", else it's sexist.

Not to be too sophistic, but I think the problem lies in how you define "democracy". All that is necessary is to have "citizens" that elect "representatives". We could define citizens however we want and thus call the country a democracy (see: the US before 1865, the US before 1920, etc.).

As long as you're willing to admit that a country need not respond to the political desires of every human being within its borders, either of the statements you made could be true, no moreso for one than for the other.

[zanne]

24. But...but....Women didn't always have rights in this country!

I'm assuming that by now we've all heard RWingers saying "But it took us years and years to write our consitution but we're expecting Iraq to do it right away" and besides, we changed the consitution as time went by". In other words, women in Iraq should have to wait a couple hundred years to have the right to custody of their own children, the right to vote, the right to own property, etc. I know that Republicans want to go back in time, but 200 years is a stretch, even for them. Anybody else have an answer for these "constitutional scholars"?

[Bluerthanblue]

4. screw the

grammer, screw the spelling. What you say, is clear- and clearly against anything i would call 'democracy'-

But, if the 'truth' be told, and the 'right wing theocrats' in America really get what they say is 'the right' way, then we women are screwed again too, in so many ways i can't begin to count.


Pay attention people, now it's 'women'- who don't matter, you could be next-

thanks Seabeyond.
as much as i don't want to 'see' this we have to.

[seabeyond]

11. high five girl.....yep

and....we are raising these boys. married to these men

[elehhhhna]

5. I've been thinking the same thing: over HALF the population LOSES their

rights and that's called fucking Democracy? WOOHOO! YAY! USA!!!

43 American SERVICEWOMEN DIED so far to fucking install a Muslim Theocracy and TURN IRAQI WOMEN and girls into FUCKING PROPERTY???????

Turn millions of women into goddamned LIVESTOCK with a fucking SIGNATURE!

SUBMISSION ACCOMPLISHED.

[northzax]

6. well, from my perspective...

democracy is not dependent on women having rights. is true, if you're willing to twist it a bit. The fact that we are discussing women's rights in this country is an indictment of our society, just as the need for affirmative action is an indictment. It tells us that we still cannot see everyone as a fully fledged member of society in equal standing. women's rights, gay rights, racial or ethnic minority rights? how about human rights? scary.

the biggest indictment of our society, to me, is the fact that we need to keep passing laws to remind people that, yes, virginia, the constitution does apply to ________. Of course it does.

This is not to say that laws don't need to be passed to provide enforcement of these rights, and amendments as neccesary (XIV, XV and XIX in particular clarify parts of the Constitution woefully lacking in equality) it's just sad that we need them. Democracy is dependant on EVERYONE having equal rights, it's kinda the point.

[Cleita]

13. We are not a democracy no matter how much they propagandize it.

We still have an antiquated system of representative government that is becoming less representative of "we the people" and more representative of the firm, the company, the corporation.

We need a real democracy governed by "we the people" directly. It can be done with the right leadership.

[northzax]

20. real democracy?

impossible above the city-state level. anyway you crunch it, you'll end up with representative democracy, running a two trillion dollar organisation like the government is, in fact, a profession, one I would much rather hire someone to take care of for me, than do myself. I don't want to be involved in the day to day decisions of how the government works, frankly, I don't think you do either. Do you care if Karl in Human Resources gets a raise this year? or what weight of paper the Secretary of Labor uses for her business cards? I don't. All I care about is overall performance, which means representative government works for me. I don't like the current administrators much, but I'd rather replace them with new administrators, not be responsible for the day to day decisions myself.

[Cleita]

22. That's the idea, to hire the best man for the job of

administering our nation. Instead we have an aristocratic elite installing their cretin sons in positions of power to rob us blind and now to put our nation in the worst danger we have ever been. We have every right to expect certain benefits from our government and our taxes. I actually am in favor of a bureaucracy that can run things efficiently, whom we can fire if they aren't doing their job, and that we can step in a change policy if we don't like the way things are done. No we don't have to do the minute details of governance but have a very strong say in the people we hire to do so.

[northzax]

23. but that's the representative government

you keep railing about. :shrug:

[Cleita]

25. If you want to nit pick, I concede, however my way

puts power directly in the hands of the people. We used to have some power through elections to try to get someone in office who would pay attention to what we wanted, but we don't have even that anymore. The system now is promise them anything for their votes, but make sure you come through for those lobbyists and interests that are your biggest donors.

[etherealtruth]

7. Hey, seabeyond ...

I have been astounded that I have run in to several posters (here, on the DU) that don't see human rights violations targeted against women as particularly concerning.

I have seen these abuses written off as cultural values and my expressions of outrage as my desire to Americanize (and devalue) the culture of others.

Was opposition to Apartheid in South Africa a lack of respect for Afrikaner culture? ------- It clearly was opposition to human rights violations; as is outrage over child brides in Afghanistan, honor killings, female genital mutilation ...

Cultural misogyny and the associated abuses of women iS NOT OK because "that's the way 'they' do it, and have always done it"

[Cleita]

9. Considering we are all the same species, denying rights

and access to opportunity of half the population has undesirable effects on the other half.

[etherealtruth]

15. That is very true ...

Diminishing the value of any of us, diminishes the value of all of us ... I think that the mistreatment of women has become so comfortable and so ingrained in some people (and yes some cultures) that they truly don't even view women as "human" ... arghhhhhh.

[seabeyond]

26. does the u.s., does bush condone loss of women rights. or not

it is that simple. if he supports this passing, he condones it. just let it be known. otherwise they pull out. and say no, we cannot support it.

no maybe kinda sorta

these women had their rights prior to invasion. this is our creation. we are responsible for it. all hte other countries that deny women, it is their own making. this is our making. who are we as a people