Karma payback? Lance Armstrong met with Bush, proven to be lying cheater

[geek tragedy]

I've been a fan for a long time and a defender recently of Lance Armstrong.

No longer.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/23/sports/othersports/23cnd-armstrong.html

<snip>
In a major challenge to Lance Armstrong's domination of the Tour de France, the French sports newspaper L'Équipe charged today that the American rider frequently used an illegal performance-enhancing drug in 1999 to win his first of seven consecutive Tours.

. . .

The tests were done at the Chatenay- Malabry laboratory outside Paris last year, the specialist doping facility confirmed. No tests for EPO were available in 1999, and the urine samples were tested in 2004 to help scientists refine detection methods, the paper said. It explained that its reporters had matched the six-digit labels identifying each sample with forms filed with the French Cycling Federation during the Tour. Those forms, filled out each time a sample was taken in a drug test, identified the donor by name as well as the six digits on his urine sample.

L'Équipe reproduced both what it said were the results of the laboratory's tests, with sample number, and the forms with the same number and Armstrong's name. To a layman, the laboratory chart was nearly incomprehensible, except for its table of sample numbers. A low number presumably signifying EPO levels could be marked positive in a nearby column while a much higher number could be marked negative.

But Jean-Marie Leblanc, the director of the Tour de France, called the paper's report "very complete, very professional, very meticulous." He said on RTL radio that the charge "appears credible." Leblanc added that disciplinary action seemed unlikely since the tests were based on only the second, or B, urine sample taken during the race. The A sample was tested in 1999 and not frozen.
<snip>

Is Bush a walking bad luck charm? Ouch!

[progressivebydesign]

1. Wouldn't that make a 2nd pal of Bush's to be using sports drugs?

Wasn't there some hoopla over Palmieri recently?

[geek tragedy]

2. Bush believes Palmeiro was clean. I have no doubt that he believes

Armstrong didn't dope in 1999.

Makes you wonder what kind of drugs Rumsfeld is on.

[Guckert]

3. Don't forget hillbilly heroin addict Rush (anal cyst coward) limbaugh.

[raysr]

32. That was from

Gannon-Guckert's mighty tool!

[JAbuchan08]

4. I guess the question now is

did Armstrong continue to dope? It's concievable, he might have switched to even newer doping agents to avoid testing positive.

[geek tragedy]

9. Well, his claims of innocence don't mean a damn thing.

All he can say is "I never got caught during the actual race."

[rinsd]

24. Yes...instead let's believe a French tabloid!

Right now the basis for people calling him a cheater seems to be that little bike ride he took with Bush.

Otherwise the usual DU I know would look at this report and scream at the breach of medical privacy, the sloppy methods for testing and the possible motivations by the paper. Six other riders tested psotitive under these "conditions" and yet they were not named....why?

But he didn't denounce Bush while chatting him up for more funds for cancer research so it obvious he did it.

:eyes:

Oh and I should add that EPO testing began for the Tour de France in 2000...Lance went on to that race and 5 more times with testing in place and with a very rabid sector of thr racing world out to get him.

[geek tragedy]

27. I was one of those defending Armstrong just a few days ago.

No one's disputing that the French media have had a vendetta against Armstrong.

However, I haven't seen any credible explanations as to how samples that are traceable to Armstrong with his sample number on them tested positive.

Of course, the medical files should never have been leaked to the paper. But that's neither here nor there.

[hlthe2b]

5. Use of certain performance enhancing drugs (anabolic steroids)

and drugs that mimic male hormones, in someone who had had testicular cancer, would seem amazingly risky to me. I reserve judgement, but I can't imagine Lance's oncologist would not have warned him....:shrug:

[geek tragedy]

7. This was for blood doping/EPO, not HGH or steroids. eom

[hlthe2b]

8. I didn't read thoroughly enough... thanks...

[gulfcoastliberal]

6. I've been saying it all along...

And been called a villain. No with inoperable stage 4 cancer with mets in lungs & brain (even testicular cancer) beats it like that unless it was caused by something they took. And then stopped taking - once they realized what it did. Lance Armstrong is just another cheating Texan.

[Child_Of_Isis]

17. Ack! That has always been my thoughts! eom.

[Hobo]

36. So you have had Testicular cancer?

I had exactly the same as diagnosis as Lance Armstrong. I never took a steriod in my life. Amazing. I call Bullshit on you sir!


Hobo



:beer:

[gulfcoastliberal]

45. Maybe it is bullshit, maybe not.

So far I have not been diagnosed with testicular or any cancer. Sorry you had that diagnoses - I hope you are cured.

My dad was recently diagnosed w/lung cancer (they found it by accident after he had a CT scan for something else). He did smoke for over thirty-odd years and quit for another 30. He has stage 4 inoperable cancer with rib and vetebrae mets. He's not symptomatic, so he's planning a trip overseas to see friends and then do a clinical trial when he gets back (tarceva and something else). He's a medical doctor himself, so he has a really excellent oncologist. But lung cancer is not the same as testicular - he knows he's terminal and it really sucks for him and our whole family.

BTW, I didn't say EVERYONE who gets testicular cancer did 'roids or other performance-enhancing drugs. I just hypothesize that there is a correlation in the Lance Armstrong case. Only he and perhaps his doctors know for sure. And I could well be wrong. But I'm not sure we know the entire TRUE story, either.

So, if you wouldn't mind me asking, you're saying you also were in stage 4 with inoperable lung & brain mets when diagnosed? If you do mind, no worries.

[renate]

46. I'm sorry about your dad

I hope he has a really wonderful trip.

[gulfcoastliberal]

61. Thank you - I truly appreciate it.

Hopefully I'll go with him.

[democracyindanger]

38. Armstrong cheated at beating cancer?

[gulfcoastliberal]

60. I idn't mean cancer. He had a 50/50 chance with lung & brain mets

I meant he cheated the Tour de France by abusing performance-enhancing drugs. But it was a huge problem for the Tour snce practically every pro rider did it. From 1998:

Cycling's most famous race may have ended in Paris on Sunday but the French police investigations into widespread drug taking have rocked the sport to its foundations.

And while the this year's Tour will be remembered more for the drug scandal than Italian Marco Pantani's victory, at least the race made it to Paris, much to the relief of the organisers.

Although drug revelations are not new to cycling the reputation of the Tour and the sport as a whole has been badly damaged and root and branch reform is expected by cycling fans in the months ahead.

The Tour Director, Jean-Marie Leblanc, knows there is work to do before the next Tour de France.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/1998/07/98/tour_de_france/144326.stm

Another Tour de Pharmaceuticals?
1 JULY 1999. One year after a doping scandal struck the Tour de France bike race like a mass crash on a mountain descent, it's déjà vu all over again. In early June, elite cyclist Marco Pantani was ejected -- poised for victory -- from a prestigious Italian race. Instead of glowing on the winner's stand, he spent four hours chatting with cops.

cyclist Marco Pantani
Pantani, the best hill-climber in the business showed signs -- but no proof -- of a banned drug that stimulates the growth of red blood cells. These cells ferry oxygen to the muscles. To an endurance bike racer, red cells are more critical than a hot bike or a rich sponsor. The problem with the drug in question is this: too many blood cells make the blood too thick, leading to deadly clots.

Pantani, humiliated, says he won't start the Tour de France on July 3. The Tour is cycling's toughest -- and most prestigious -- race, a grueling 21-day marathon across more than 2,200 miles of French countryside and Alpine peaks that would make the average cyclist puke -- or hitchhike.

Last year, Pantani won a Tour that most fans want to forget. In 1998, the widespread eagerness to swallow or inject performance-enhancing chemicals caused the removal of seven teams. Rather than traditional sprints across finish lines, television news featured arrests and cars crammed with banned drugs.

http://whyfiles.org/090doping_sport/

My personal feelings are that all drugs should be legal, including perormancing enhancing drugs. If people can harm their livers and lungs with booze and tobacco, why not anything else? I sincerely believe the "war on drugs" has been a financial and human disaster. It has also completed decimated the 4th amendment (thanks SCOTUS) - property forfeitures & seizures, random car searches with dogs, et al. Prisons are overflowing with non-violent drug offenders serving federal mandatory minimums - so violent offenders are being set free early to make room for more non-violent drug convicts. It's pure insanity.

May the best "enhanced" athlete win, as far as I'm concerned. They shoul just start new halls of fame for "pre enhancement" and "post enhancement" era athletes of all sports. As the BALCO scandal in baseball goes to show, they'll simply keep modifing molecules of dugs to stay ahead of the bladder cops.

[Drum]

10. Lie down with dogs, and you'll stand up with fleas

(Not meaning any ill-will toward actual dogs, it's just a figure of speech ;) )

[MadHound]

11. I'm sorry , but I find this to be complete and utter BS

There are so many holes in this story that the entire Tour could bike through them.

First off, the French have been trying to tear down Lance ever since his first win. Second, chain of custody on these samples has been broken repeatedly. How many people had access to these samples since '99? Third, this wasn't an A sample, the one that is most rigously guarded and tested. An tests during a race usually show elevated levels of many things. Fourth, this was taken during his first race back from his bout with cancer. Every onicologist I know puts the fear of God and death in their relapsed patients about not taking various substances, especially hormones and drugs due to the high instances of reoccurence attached to such usage. I seriously doubt that a newly recovered Armstrong, with nothing to lose, no records in sight, would jeapordize his health in such a manner.

Sorry, but I think that this is more French sour grapes at Lance's repeated drubbings of them on their own turf. They have pulled out all the stops against him, and nothing has ever turned up before. I think that this is just the French's last desperate attempt to smear a man who is a living legend.

[kittenpants]

13. my thoughts as well

based on the past allegations from the French authorites that came to nothing in the end. Of course, it's possible he has taken something, I just don't know if I believe the same people who tried to slander him before.

[geek tragedy]

15. If they hadn't published documents backing their claim up, I'd

be with you.

But this looks like extraordinary proof of extraordinary claims.

[MadHound]

18. Sorry, but I would have to disagree

If for no other reason than the chain of custody has been broken, probably several times, over the past six years. Combine that with the almost pathological hatred the French have for Armstrong, things look mighty suspicious.

In addition, EPO is quite dangerous for athletes, recovering from cancer or not. It is a kidney hormone, and it has and can cause sudden death. This scenario just doesn't seem likely for a man with nothing to prove, who is a new cancer survivor to boot.

And we have yet to see the original reports on these tests, just these so-called reproductions done by the paper. If these charges have a basis in reality, let's see the real reports, and not just what some biased newspaper is calling "reproductions"

Here's a link to further EPO information. <http://www.rice.edu/~jenky/sports/epo.html>

[geek tragedy]

21. How do you know that chain of custody has been broken?

I agree that the French media have been out to get Armstrong for some time now.

EPO was very, very commonly used back in those days.

I've been trying to find PDF's of the document photos--no luck.

Armstrong certainly had something to prove in 1999-he wasn't a champion back then.

[MadHound]

30. This is a sample that has been squirreled away for six years

And all of the sudden it magically appears? If it truly was kept within the chain of custody, there would be a paper trail a mile long, and the media would be touting it as another piece of evidence. It is standard with any lab samples, especially samples as important as these. Instead though, all we hear is the sound of silence on this. SOP when you are bringing samples to light is that you publish your COC papers along with it, but they are nowhere to be found.

And I realize that EPO was common back then. Just because something is common doesn't mean that Lance used it. Like I said, it is a dangerous product to use, both in the short and long term. Somehow I doubt that a recovering cancer patient's first action would be to start doping himself up with such dangerous substances.

And no, Lance really didn't have anything to prove, except to himself. He was relatively unknown within the cycling world, and nobody was expecting a recovering cancer patient to win anything. I think that Lance would have been happy if he had just finished, for I think that all he had to prove in the first race was that he was still healthy for the sport.

Until I see more information, original paperwork, COC documents, etc., I'm going to have to call BS on this one.

[rinsd]

31. Lance was not unknown (at least in the cycling world)....

...he had won a few of other Tours here in the States and was one of the favorites going into the Tour de France before he found out about the cancer.

I was surprised that he was a top competitor before the cancer but I didn't really follow cycling

[MadHound]

33. In the cycling world, yes, he was known and respected

However he wasn't a major name cyclist outside of the cycling world, and didn't have the pressure on him to win, especially after battling back from cancer. I think that the only pressure on him that first race was to prove that he could still race, and he put that pressure on himself.

[geek tragedy]

43. Images of original documents:

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/8745.0.html

[MadHound]

55. Images of the newspaper

Not images of the documents. Frankly, given the French press' hatred for Armstrong, I would prefer to have this all verified by an independent or authoritative agency like the International Cycling Union.

Until there is more verification of this, with independent study by a disinterested authority, I'm going to simply chalk this up to more of the same out of the French cycling community, sour grapes.

[geek tragedy]

58. I imagine Armstrong can waive the privacy requirements for the samples

and their numbers.

Armstrong's lawyers will certainly be giving those documents a close, close look. Let's see what they come up with.

[geek tragedy]

14. I wish it was b.s.

But, if the documents say what the NY Times say they do, it's undeniable that the positive samples are his.


Armstrong is above all things a fierce competitor. And EPO is not as dangerous as HGH or steroids for a cancer patient.

[The Straight Story]

44. And it took them this long to find this out why?

My bullshit detector is beeping.

[geek tragedy]

53. Supposedly they tested these as part of their research program

to develop better techniques, and somebody leaked the information to L'Equipe.

[Flubadubya]

16. Living legend...

Ooh, let me bow down, gesticulate, and piss my pants over his accomplishments. I agree, he is quite athletic, just unfortunately, quite politically inept, and apparently naive as well. Sorry, his meeting with the * and his snubbing of Camp Casey is disgusting to me! Living legend... MY ASS!

[MadHound]

25. Oh quit your pissing and moaning

Jesus Christ on a pogo stick! Athletes pay visits to the President all of the time. Lance was, and is a left of center guy, and the only reason he visited Bush was because he was paying respect to the office of the president, and to also help along his charity. I don't know why he didn't stop by Camp Casey, but it seems to me that the man is trying to be as apolitical as possible when it is something that effects his charity. Thus, knowing how he would get demonized by the right, and how revenues could drop, he figured that it was best to stay out of the matter all together.

But apparently that isn't enough for some people here. When you're in the public spotlight like Lance is, trying to push a charity, you have to walk a fine line, otherwise you will lose half your funding base or more.

Sorry, but some people for various reasons cannot always be as poltically pure as we want them to be. Perhaps we should cut them some slack. Besides, I don't hear you slamming the NE Patriots or the Red Sox for visiting with the President for a couple of hours. Where's your outrage on that?

[rinsd]

29. And if he had visited Camp Casey...

...you would be seeing a near identical reaction in the land of make believe.

Makes you think....

[renate]

49. agreed

His foundation is a big deal to him, rightly so, and I can totally respect his decision not to visit Camp Casey--an action that would have pleased some people but probably alienated many others, in the long run hurting his foundation.

However, he should have stayed apolitical so I am fairly grossed out by his decision to go for a bike ride with *. I can only assume that he had his reasons and not try to figure out what they could be.

[MadHound]

56. Actually , I think that he was staying apolitical as he could

And that his visit to Bush was more out of respect for the office as than anything else. I've yet to see any criticism of other atheletes' visits with Bush, such as the Patriots and Red Sox visits. These sorts of little visits are routine fare for successful atheletes, so such a move by Armstrong isn't suprising.

[Flubadubya]

37. Jesus Christ on a bicycle, so it seems...

I see your point, I really do. To be honest I have had waxing and waning admiration/contempt for Lance Armstrong. I really am in awe of his athletic prowess (provided now it was legit). He does have an inate, awesome genetic advantage over the competetion, you must admit.

I am glad that he is working for a worthwhile charity and I hope he garners some rewards there.

Nevertheless, I still think his political ambivalence is screwed. It was my understanding that he intended to visit the Casey Camp and that he had actually avowed to that intention. In that case, I still say, screw you Lance, if you didn't live up to your word.

Of course, it might have only been the expectations of the hopeful that he would make that visit. I will humbly request verifcation upon that point and quietly await confirmation thereof... (or otherwise).

[MadHound]

51. Well nowhere did I see any promise by Armstrong to visit Camp Casey

And I've looked through Daily Kos, Democracy Now, Truth Out, etc. I think that this was wishful thinking by a bunch of people.

[Flubadubya]

12. OMG... I was just going to post myself, having heard this news...

I was going to title it "Instant Karma strikes Lance Armstong?" How bizarre. Glad you have it already up. You saved me some finger exercises. :) I just wish the karma that Bush deserves were more "instant" than we have seen! :freak:

[alfredo]

19. One thing you have to understand about the tests and samples.

There was no way to prove the sample was from Lance, and even Le'Equipe concedes that point. They also conceded that the tests were faulty.

The French tabloids have gone after Lance for a long time. He has sued them for Liable. The case is before the courts.

He didn't need drugs, his physical makeup was beyond all others in the sport. His heart could pump 1/3 more blood that mere mortals, his lung capacity was well above others in the sport. His tactics and team were unmatched.

He had physical and mental advantages other riders and other teams didn't have. That is why he won. It wasn't drugs.

Unlike other teams, Lance's team and season revolved around the tour. Instead of riding other races around the world, Lance was riding the course, over and over again. His team was selected for their ability to deliver a win in the tour. Nothing else mattered.

If Ullrich had a laser like focus on the Tour, maybe he would have a yellow jersey for his own, but he didn't. Ullrich's sponsor, like most other team sponsors play to the home crowd in Europe. They cannot afford to blow off the advertising dollars like Lance's team did. Lance played to the US market, he didn't need to race all over Europe to promote their sponsors.

It wasn't drugs, it was hard work and smart work that brought the wins home.

[geek tragedy]

22. Of course, the testing agency didn't have his name so they can't verify

him as the source of those samples.

However, the magazine does have proof that Armstrong submitted samples with those exact sample numbers. That's pretty compelling.

[alfredo]

34. But the chain of possession cannot be verified.

Most people don't understand how closely Lance was monitored. They weighed his food, they monitored every vital sign. Nothing was left to chance, even back in 1999.

His team was clean, no drugs were used by any of the riders. Lance has been tested over and over again. Each time he has passed. He was tested after every win, and at the end of the race. His USPS team was closely monitored by the Postal Service. they could not afford a drug scandal.

I think the tabloids are grasping at straws because they stand a chance of losing a shit load of money if Lance wins his liable suit.

Some in France resent any non French rider winning their race. Even the great Eddy Merckx was attacked physically as he was trying for a 6th win. On a climb a race fan hit Eddy in the stomach. http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/sport.cfm?id=1653462005 (third paragraph)


Most people do not understand how Lance has changed the Tour and professional cycling. They don't understand the science behind his win. It wasn't drugs, it was an incredible athlete, backed by a very smart coach and a team unmatched in cycling history.

[Dora]

20. A former assistant was making similar accusations

I heard the story about her in the last year, I think even on NPR.

I think she was bought off because it quieted down superfast.

[smartvoter]

23. Plus a training buddy said he was juicing. My wife told me she read it

in one of our news mags -- this was a year or so back, now. nt

[newscott]

26. When everyone else is doping in the sport how can he

not be?

I've been against him for years. Not his accomplishments per se, but the fact that he denies he's doping. Give me a break.

How the heck did he get cancer? I have my suspicions.

[kittenpants]

28. are you joking! "How the heck did he get cancer?"

plenty of people get cancer without 'doping'! Please, tell me you aren't serious about that.

[newscott]

39. Use of steroids have not been studied for long-term effects

There are those that posit the using HGH as well can have cancerous side effects. The fact that it was an endocrine system body part just give one pause, no?

[AngryAmish]

47. Well, now I must doubt my mother was a juicer

That cancer remark is really lame.

[Stuckinthebush]

35. Even if it were true, few in America will believe it

1. He is seen as an American sports hero
2. He beat the French many times in their sport
3. Too many people paid money for those little yellow bracelets so they would have a hard time justifying the purchase that says "Live Strong" while accepting that that would mean "Live like a cheater".

I'm not saying he did or didn't, I'm just predicting that it wouldn't matter to the American public if he did because they will deny it. Hell, they are still denying that the Iraq war was foolish and based on lies.

[Tyler Durden]

40. I don't care WHO he is or WHAT he's done: FUCK HIM.

Bush is a miserable filthy stinking rat bastard and I wouldn't cross the street to piss on him, and neither should Armstrong.

The fact that he provided that miserable filthy stinking rat bastard with a PHOTO OP FREEBIE is only proof positive to me that when some "people" reach the heights, us "ants" down here no longer are worth placating.

I repeat: FUCK HIM.

[Binka]

50. Amen Brother! He Behaved Like A Supplicating Whore

His charity blah blah blah, other athletes blah blah blah, I am sick to fucking death of anyone I repeat ANYONE who fucking sucks at the smegma of Bush's* nasty little robe. Lance is no fucking exception. Toadying fool.

Have they no shame? Have they no class? Have they no decency?

Lance is an opportunistic shit. He should have told Bush* to fuck off and ridden to Camp Casey with flowers for Cindy. Fuck Lance The Pussy Pants. Brings to mind Brave Sir Robin of The Holy Grail.

Lance is an A-1 FUCKWITTAGE!

[hughee99]

52. No shit!

It's not like groups supporting AIDS research, stem-cell research, poverty, homelessness or environmental issues spend millions of dollars and thousands of hours demonstrating in hopes of getting the ear of an influential government official (let alone the president) to listen to their issues. All it cost Lance was a photo-op, and he got to speak his peace to the * on whatever issues he wanted to discuss. IMHO, it's more than possible that his goal was not to try to help *, but to try to get * to help him. I don't know what was discussed, so I can't say for sure, but doing a photo op with * in exchange for a chance to talk to him doesn't necessarily make someone an evil person. Do you feel the same way about Bono?

[crispini]

41. Keith Olbermann is on the Dan Patrick show now

ragging on Lance for crossing a picketline for making a commercial during an audio-visual guys' strike (and handling it badly, apparently, saying that he wasn't going to do it, then doing it, then coming up with stupid excuses.) It's pretty interesting... I never knew....

[Tyler Durden]

42. Sir Lance of the Holy Bicycle.

You know what? I'm sick to death of hearing about RICH ASSHOLES visiting RICH ASSHOLES for ANY REASON.

A Revolution is coming, and the New Romanovs (and anyone aspiring to join their club) had better watch their asses, remembering what happened the LAST time.

'nuff said.

[Binka]

54. Ha! What A Hoot! I Already Thought Of Brave Sir Robin

Before reading this post. I too Tyler am sick to fucking fucking fucking death of hearing about rich filth and what they fucking do. I do not dig through my garbage to get entertainment. So why should I listen to what trash does with their lives and deem it important?

People are just so fucking stupid. This shit amuses them? It is so trite and banal I get a fucking head ache contemplating this CRAP.

GAWD when will the trailer trash non-intellectual assholes just pull their heads out of their asses?

I am NOT I repeat NOT coming back to the US ever. It sucks so hard it should be called BLOW JOB STATES.

[Generator]

48. Oooh I'll go out on a limb

And say the thing that never gets said. This WORSHIP of Lance Armstrong is so American. Or maybe so human-in the Darwinian sense. Yes, he survived cancer and is a "winner". That doesn't make anyone that dies from cancer a loser. But it does by our standards-oh how we admire those that survive the big C..what about thinking those that die from it quick aren't losers..they are just human.

And you can say oh that's not the point-but it is-he triumphed! He lives! Still everyone dies and being alive is the most precious thing but it still isn't the basis for being a wonderful person. Maybe he's an ass. Or maybe he thought he could "teach" Bush something. But I'm not a sports person anyway. I don't worship any of them. In fact, I kinda of like the losers more. But that's me. I find the losers more interesting. I never liked the sports kids in school-some were nasty-and smug and in the end they just have better genetics-not better souls.

[NightOwwl]

57. I'll go even further...

I think he's a creep.

He left his wife for a rock-star after she supported him through his cancer scare (let alone putting her life on hold so he could follow his dream.)

I've always gotten a negative vibe from him.

[geek tragedy]

59. His mom nursed him through cancer, not his wife. eom