What's your opinion regarding panhandlers, the homeless, street people?

[Radio_Lady]

We just got home from Victoria, British Columbia, Canada. The downtown city area was lots of fun -- except for the panhandlers. We were very disturbed by the number of young, old, dirty, loud, etc. street people who are just too numerous. I was even frightened by a couple of male adults who thought they'd have a good time by hurtling bottles at the street.

Just read the brief thread about Atlanta banning panhandlers that DUer Modem Butterfly began several days ago:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4365531

We here in Portland, Oregon, have our own problems with street people around Pioneer Square, as well as the homeless people who inhabit just about every exit on our major roadways. I'm not sure I agree with banning these people, but something should be done.
It's really a problem which exists all year around in mild climates such as those in the Pacific Northwest.

Your thoughts?

Thanks in advance. I'll read your responses on my audio program this week if this post stirs up any interest.

Making peace a priority,

Radio_Lady

[Child_Of_Isis]

1. I don't think it is the people, per se,

but the system. That being said, I have seen some pretty agressive panhandlers.

[Radio_Lady]

4. Yes, I'd say they were fairly aggressive in downtown Victoria last week.

Some of the musicians were really talented. It's sad that these people cannot find a better way to live.

I usually don't give them money, but if they're playing an instrument and I listen, I pitch them from a quarter to a dollar.

[SteppingRazor]

12. I draw a distinction between street performers and panhandlers...

I'll give money to a good musician/magician/comedian/juggler/etc. who performs on the street. The way I see it, I am paying them for a service. I just don't give money to people who just walk up and ask for or -- in some cases -- demand that I give them cash. The latter is tantamount to a freaking mugging.
But again, I do think they have every right to try and solicite me for donations to their cause. :)

[Radio_Lady]

18. Good point about the difference between panhandlers and street performers.

Will the police or the enforcers in Atlanta look at it that way?

[MsTryska]

73. As far as I know the Atlanta ordinance is

specifically about verbally requesting money or food from passersby.


I don't think if you are sitting ont he sidewalk with a sign saying: "please give me money for food" it would be considered a violation.

I'm actually a little relieved by the new ordinance I work downtown and everyday i'm accosted by several people who get aggressive if you don't have money.

Now mind you - i'm a transplanted New Yorker, and never in my experience have i had NYC panhandlers act as aggressively as Atlanta panhandlers.

Also - down here in Atlanta I don't see that many street performers (at least not in the area covered by the ordinance), but I would think as long as they are not actively asking for money or food, they would be exempt as well.

[DrJackson]

30. Many of them choose that lifestyle

I speak from experience, as I used to be a professional street performer myself. I would stand on the sidewalk and perform sleight of hand and magic tricks for people, working exclusively for whatever tips they chose to offer. T

There were a lot of street musicians in the area as well, and one thing we all had in common was that we truly loved what we did. We were not on the street because we had to be, we were on the street because we wanted to be. At the end of the day we would all go home (in my case, an apartment in a very nice house on the edge of the suburbs) and start up again the next day.

I guess the bottom line is that appearances can be deceiving. Not everyone you see on the street is unemployed and down on their luck. I just wanted to make that distinction.

[Child_Of_Isis]

35. I actually saw one once

that looked and acted like a wild animal. I kid you not. He scared me too death. He grunted instead of talking. And he squat and moved like an animal instead of standing in an upright position. He would run to garbage cans when people coming out of KFC threw their trash away. He would grab the trash and scuttle off to a corner. This was in Hollywood California. That sight will remain forever in my head.

[Radio_Lady]

37. When I lived in New York, in the 1960s, I saw similar scenes.

They are horrendous; you wonder whether these people will ever get the treatment they need. And it is truly unsettling, for years afterwards.

[kestrel91316]

89. Sounds like the ones we get here in the San Fernando Valley, just

over the hill from "Hollyweird". I have gotten so used to seeing some of the same homeless over the years I have given them names (just in my head), like Crazy Man, and Bicycle Man, and Hairy Drunk Man, and Old Mexican Lady, and Blond Drug Ho, and The Three Stooges, and, well, you get it. They seem to linger in the neighborhood for a few years and then move on, to be replaced by slightly different models.

They appear to be about a 50/50 mix of truly clinically insane and drunk/druggie types. We don't seem to get just down-on-their-luck normal folks. The social safety net still exists for those who WANT help. But if they don't care about living on the street and don't want help, you can't force it upon them. Right now there are 3 drunks who live in the pedestrian tunnel under the freeway near my office. Cops won't do a thing about them. They drink sunup to sunset and use buckets as toilets (and leave the lids off when they get really drunk). It's a joy.

No idea what to do.

[SteppingRazor]

2. As a generally rule, I don't give them money...

But neither do I think they should be legally forced not to ask.

[Radio_Lady]

6. Atlanta will warn them first, but then arrest them. I have to read the

information more closely coming out of Atlanta.

[RaleighNCDUer]

3. They're probably Islamic terrorists --

we need to fear them.

[Radio_Lady]

9. I don't think so -- but they are erratic and they do incite fear, at least

in me. It's the problem of not knowing what they will do next. I got screamed at by a woman in downtown Portland when I did not give her money. It was totally unnerving...

[RaleighNCDUer]

51. I should have put a 'sarcasm' tag on that.

Referencing the recent 'be suspicious of vagrants and homeless people who may actually be terrorists casing a target' that someone put out a few days ago.

A large proportion of the homeless should be in mental health facilities, as they were de-institutionalized during the Reagan years and generally ignored since then. It only takes a couple days of the meds to put some of these people on the streets, and once there no-one can keep up with them to help them.

Not saying we need to bring back the Snake Pit, but obviously, a lot of them have serious problems.

[Stinky The Clown]

5. I fight with myself about this

The liberal me wants to help people. Giving something to a panhandler is helping.

The self-protection/self-interest side of me avoids them at all costs.

And I never win my internal fight! :)

On balance, panhandling should be banned as it infringes on people's right to go unmolested. How to do this in a sensitive way is difficult to figure out. Maybe that's why it isn't done in any widespread way.

Attacking the root causes (economic fairness) is not going to happen any time soon.

[Radio_Lady]

11. Thanks, Husb2Sparkly, your answer strikes me as close to my own.

How to do it sensitively is what I'm struggling with today.

Yes, and I agree with you about economic fairness. Especially today with prices of food and gasoline and most everything going up.

[LSU_Subversive]

85. i have the same dillemma. by giving to panhandlers am i perpetuating

the problem? i don't think there's any pat solution to the problem.

if i'm feeling conflicted about it, i usually try to imagine being in a truly helpless situation, where for some reason i'm at least temporarily stuck in a cycle of poverty. sometimes, people may really need just a few more bucks to get that next meal or bed for the night. admittedly, my rationalization may seem rather simplistic and naive. but, i'm well aware that there are people that lifestyle or use the money for drugs or alcohol. but i'm also aware that there are people out there who are, for whatever reason, in a hopeless situation and need some help getting out of it. in my view, it is worse to neglect others who may truly need help than it is to inadvertently contribute to someone's abuse of the generosity of others.

the best way i've found to get around this problem, however, is to give food if i have any available.

[Stinky The Clown]

91. I do what I can in other ways

We have donated (goods, not money) directly to an inner city Catholic Church that serves the poorest of the poor. We go right to the church and they distribute what we give. We have had the wonderful good fortune to actually hand it to the people who need it. The incredible rush we get from being thanked so sincerely by people in need but far too ..... mmmm ..... proper ..... good word ...... to beg or even ask. The people we gave to were there at the church doing volunteer work for those even more needy than them.

I also do as much pro bono work for oragnizations serving the poor as I can. And always for grassroots groups ...... not the big institutional charities.

[Squatch]

7. They have every right to be there as you or I do...

[Radio_Lady]

13. OK. Given that, are they an impediment to you at all? Do you give them

money or cigarettes, or just ignore them?

[Squatch]

21. Not an impediment at all.

And I give them money, etc. occasionally.

Once in old town ALexandria in the middle of the winter, I saw a homeless lady having a hard time of things. I checked her into a hotel room on my dime so she could get out of the cold for a night.

[Child_Of_Isis]

49. I usually give them whatever I have.

Unless they scare me then I run. I used to go to this woman's place when I was in Hollywood. She collected old bread and donuts and such. Then I would distribute that to certain ones that I know were afraid of people. They would never come up to me. They would run if I approached them with food. I would just set the stuff down when they saw me and go off a safe distance. Then they would run and grab the stuff.

[SlowDownFast]

27. Amen.

Learn to live with it or shut yourself up in a gated community and have your groceries delivered so you never have to see the ugly or unfortunate people in the world.

I give to panhandlers every chance I get, especially the creative ones.

What they do with the donation, is their biz. Whatever rings their bell.

[Radio_Lady]

36. If we had given to everyone who approached us in Canada, I don't

think we would have had enough money to finish our vacation.

Where do you draw the line?

[SlowDownFast]

52. If I'm an area with many panhandlers

and I have some money to spare, I usually keep my eyes peeled for one or two folks who either are creative in their panhandling or look especially down 'n out or both.

The amount I give depends on what I can spare at the time.

As for the rest of the folks I gently tell them sorry with a quick glance (and maybe a smile) as I continue on my way.

The outright pushy ones I don't give the time of day to.

I should know, I was on the streets (and panhandling) before.

[Horse with no Name]

8. As a nurse, I worked inner city

we had alot of homeless patients. It always broke my heart. Generally when people leave the hospital, they get in their cars and go home. With the homeless, they walk outside the hospital doors and they ARE home.
Many of the homeless in this area were Vietnam vets as well as mentally ill people. These people were products of government budget cutbacks.
Many people are one paycheck away from being homeless. In talking to many of my homeless patients, this is what happens.
Bills get behind, they don't qualify for assistance, they get evicted, can't find a new place because they have bad references, now they qualify for assistance but can't get assistance but can't get it because they have no address...it's a no-win situation.
I'd tell you what my solution is, only I would be accused of being a bleeding heart liberal.

On edit:
There was a radio station in Dallas a few years ago that addressed the problem of panhandling. They gathered blankets, bags of food, etc., and drove around. In Dallas, the panhandlers are on the corners--very annoying and very aggressive. Every panhandler that approached them, they offered blankets and food. Not ONE panhandler took their offer. They wanted cash.

I try very hard not to lump the homeless in with the panhandlers. Not every homeless person is a panhandler and not every panhandler is homeless. You know what I mean?

[Radio_Lady]

23. Appreciate your making the distinction, Horse with no Name.

That radio station pointed up one of the problems I've thought about. I just assume that the "can you spare a bit of change?" come-on will just result in that person using the money for some addicting substance, whether it is drugs, cigarettes, or alcohol.

That may be my negative perception, however.

[Saphire]

69. I have stated on this board before that my son is one of those

"panhandlers" everyone complains about. My son did have a serious drug problem that left him homeless. He did kick the problem somewhat, but with no support he always finds himself back in the same boat. He has no car, no job (hard to get with felony record) no apartment ( impossible to get with a felony) and usually needs cash for food, and if he gets enough, shelter. I know first hand the trials of some of these people, and it's not pretty. Just the idea that they would be accused of being "a spy/terrust" pisses me off to no end. Instead of * and Co. finding a way to help these people become productive citizens in our sociaty, they have found a way to make life harder for them by making them criminals.

[Radio_Lady]

77. Lady of Texas, I'm sure this is a difficult situation for you. Sorry to

hear about your son's plight. I don't think the panhandlers are terrorists, if it's any consolation to you.

Peace,

Radio Lady

[katsy]

29. A bleeding heart liberal is not what I'd call you.

A compassionate human being, yes.

No one should have to live in the streets. Not the sick, mentally ill, or unemployed.

Some kind of transitional housing for people to use while getting themselves on their feet is not a waste of money.

[Southpaw Bookworm]

41. Excellent distinction

In the DC area, about 2/3 of the homeless adults have jobs: They just can't afford housing. Meanwhile, the majority of the homeless population consists of families with children.

[KarenInMA]

10. A walk through Harvard Square is typically met

with anywhere from 3-7 panhandlers, most of whom are always there.

I never give them money. I support homeless shelters and politicians who try to alleviate the economic issues that cause homelessness, but I do not give my money to people on the street.

Personal choice. Many people, however, do, and that's their choice.

[Radio_Lady]

32. Hi, Karen. As a former Massachusetts resident, I know what you mean

about Harvard Square. I used to visit a location in Kenmore Square, Blaine Hair School, probably a couple of times each month in my job as a Technical Consultant for the Clairol company. The panhandlers there were vicious -- and that was more than ten years ago. Sorry to hear it probably hasn't improved at all.

Do you think Atlanta is on to something positive with this ban, or not???

[julialnyc]

53. I think that they are very aggressive in Boston

My brother lives there and I have to admit that their aggression scares me.

In New York, I give money frequently (I know some guys by name) and will always give them my sandwich that I can't finish, an old sweater to a woman during winter, ect....


But I got a different feeling in Boston.The people were too aggressive and got way in my face. I felt bad for not giving, but I didn't feel safe opening my purse with someone that in my face (but I would never think they were terrorists!).

[Sandpiper]

14. They ought to be beaten and jailed

For offending our bourgeois sensibilities with their very existence.


:sarcasm:

[Radio_Lady]

38. {{tongue deeply in cheek}} I assume you don't really hold that position!

Thanks for commenting, Sandpiper.

[Sandpiper]

40. Forgot to add the sarcasm emoticon

oops!

[Radio_Lady]

47. We forgive you! Without the voice cues, it's hard to know how to take

each comment.

Thanks for participating...

Making peace a priority,

Radio_Lady

[SeattleGirl]

15. We had some pretty aggressive panhandlers in Seattle

several years ago, but it seems that the really aggressive ones aren't around any more. There are still lots of panhandlers, but they are not the in-your-face type. I think the city did a crack down on that type of behavior.

I don't agree with banning non-aggressive panhandling, because I know that many of the homeless don't fit the negative sterotype of the drug or alcohol addled, but rather are people who may have been living a decent life and then their jobs are shipped overseas, or something else happened (high med expenses, etc.) that put them in the situation they are in. I also know that many of the homeless are vets, which angers me to no end. They fight for their country and then their country lets them down.

Lobbing bottles is definitely out of line. I've been to Victoria many times, and have never run into that, thank goodness.

I think the take on panhandlers, etc., you might want to look at is WHY are these people out pandhandling in the first place? How much responsibility do we as a society have for this problem? And if we ban panhandling, what is to become of these folks? There aren't enough resources for them to turn to for help, so what are they to do? Again, I do think that the aggressive form of panhandling should be banned, but not the passive. And if people find pandhandlers distasteful, I would suggest they think about why it is that in this country, we have so many of them.

Sounds like you have an interesting topic to introduce on your show.

On edit: When I referred to the drug or alcohol addled above, it may have sounded like I was sterotyping them; I'm not, because they do exist. I should know -- I worked with homeless addicts for about 5 years, and our goal, in addition to helping them get clean and sober, was to help them find a place to live, through a state-funded program. I mostly phrased it the way I did as I think may people believe that ALL homeless are addicts, and that simply is not true.

[Radio_Lady]

45. The first time we visited Seattle was in the early 1990s. We stayed

downtown and didn't have a car. On our walks to Pike's Market or the movie theaters, we were really surprised at the huge array of street people.

We chalked it up to the mild climate and the lack of facilities to handle the needs of these people.

Victoria, Vancouver, Seattle and Portland all seem to share a similar fate.

[SeattleGirl]

63. I'd add San Francisco to that list

Primarily because they are port cities (except Victoria, which does not have a large port), they are big tourist destinatins, similar climates, etc. When you say street people, do you also mean the street musicians, or primarily just those who panhandle and/or just seem to be aimlessly wandering or standing around?

[Radio_Lady]

68. Standing around, playing an instrument or drums -- with a hat or

their instrument case opened and accepting money. I guess I haven't made that much of a distinction previously.

[SeattleGirl]

71. When I was in college

I had a fabulous sociology prof who wanted us to experience things, not just read/talk about them. We read a book called "Talley's Corner" about an African-American neighborhood. Can't recall where, but it was a very interesting book (non-fiction). Anyway, he assigned us our own street-corner study, where we had to pick some place or area to study. We had to actually talk to people, hang out with them, etc. I chose the musicians at the Pike Place Market, and ended up hanging out with a quartet of classical musicians who played usually across the street from the main market area. I spent two whole days with them, and it was fascinating. One of the things I found out (which is just as true today as it was in the mid-80s when I did my study) is that the City of Seattle requires permits for street musicians. They have specific places they can play, and a certain amount of time they can perform, then they have to move to a different spot or stop for the day. While it seems like these folks may just plop wherever they want and start playing, singing, dancing, or doing whatever they want, it's really quite organized and all the performers know the rules. Or, if they don't, they're gone until they get their permits. Some folks, like the guys I hung out with, have regular day jobs and play at the market primarily because they love to play, and also it helps supplement their income. Others rely mostly on that income from donations to help them through the day. My guess would be that other cities probably have a similar program.

[Radio_Lady]

76. Ver-r-ry interesting, Seattle Girl! Thanks for posting this!

[The Magistrate]

81. 'Tally's Corner', Ma'am

Is an old favorite of mine. The location was a snack shop in Washington D.C., within a couple of miles of the White House. A little adjustment needs to be made for the age of the thing, as it was written about a half century ago, but it is an excellent and useful work to this day....

[SeattleGirl]

84. My bad!

Thanks for the correction -- I was DUing with one hand and working with the other. I loved the book; it was fascinating and I've never forgotten it. In fact, I still have my copy, and had my daughter read it a few years ago. Thanks again.

[xchrom]

16. there but for the grace of god, go i.

bottle tossing and all.

i never, ever begrudge street people there little space.

i might get annoyed for a minute -- but, baby no matter how bad my day is -- it's better than theirs.

[etherealtruth]

25. Touche`

[Radio_Lady]

50. I once got down to my last $80, separated from my spouse, with two kids --

I didn't start to panhandle -- don't think I ever thought of taking welfare, either. Not sure if I would have qualified.

Instead, I went to a place of worship and prayed. Then I mentioned my plight at the meeting after the service. One of the leading merchants in the town took pity on my and gave me a job as a cashier.

I put my kids in daycare and worked 8 AM to 5 PM for months.

Wonder if I will ever have to beg from people... I hope not.

[etherealtruth]

70. That's just it ...

Can we be sure that tragedy (including severe mental illness)will not befall us?

I hope I'm never there, but I'm not arrogant enough to believe I'm better than someone who is out on the streets.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Horse with no Name]

28. oy vey!

:wtf:

[faithnotgreed]

33. "little better than animals"

you know i think in my 1+ year being on this board i have responded out of being upset perhaps two times if that many

ok before i go on a rant i want to first ask if you are serious or sarcastic
because i love animals and people and the way this country and most societies treat both is abhorrent

[Sandpiper]

34. Are you channeling Reagan's ghost?

Or posting satire?

[mattclearing]

54. Has it occurred to you that these people are mentally ill?

Homelessness is a symptom of the healthcare crisis. These people need qualified professional help.

Unbelievable.

[Radio_Lady]

62. Yep, I realize it. I know it's a symptom of something -- but not every

homeless person will accept help for whatever the reason. That's what's unbelievable.

[MadHound]

65. Friend, you know nothing, and every word you speak betrays

Your lack of knowledge.

Most of the homeless are not drug addicts. Many are mentally ill, many actually work, but don't make enough to afford shelter, many are like you and me, one or two paychecks from the streets, and then the shit hit the fan, and they're out on the street.

You're lack of compassion, empathy and understanding of the homeless in this country is amazing, and quite frankly, repugnant as hell. You speak of the homeless as animals. I generally find that those who objectify, villify and are clueless about such a situation are the ones who are truly animals. In fact denegrating you with the term "animal" is unfair to animals. I think I will just refer to you as a human, a sick, twisted, uncaring, unfeeling human.

[Radio_Lady]

78. MadHound, I didn't see the original post which you are referring to...

but apparently it has been deleted.

Sorry you got so riled up. That was not my intention with my original post.

In peace,

Radio_Lady

[jessicazi]

19. I usually, if I have cash, give them some money.

While some do -waste- the money. I know there are just as many who use it for food. I wouldn't want to NOT help the person who spends the money the right way, so I take no chances and give every chance I get. I also live in a smaller city, so I rarely see homeless people. Therefore, I donate time and money to the local homeless shelter. When I go to my hometown near Seattle for visits, and I see many more homeless people, I consider it an opportunity to help, and I do so gratefully.

-stepping off soapbox.

I have also bought food for homeless people. That is a good alternative if you don't like giving money. Go to the store or a restaurant and pick up some food and give them that.

-Edited to fix spelling error.

[rniel]

20. Well bush says they may be terrorists

ha ha ha

[SeattleGirl]

26. Yeah, they may terrorize

his bubble-boy existence and introduce a little reality therein. Heaven forbid, can't have that now, can we?

[JanMichael]

22. Scary! They could be TERRORISTS!!!!

OK, seriously...

I think that it's a goddamned shame that our society doesn't provide housing for people who..for WHATEVER reason cannot provide for themselves.

I think it's criminal that people live under bridges and go through trashcans for food.

I am not anymore scared of a homeless person than I am of the Republicans I work for.

Stephanie

[Bluebear]

64. OOOOH YOU SCARED ME!!!!

I agree with your post wholeheartedly.

[maxsolomon]

24. you don't owe them a living

i tend to give based on their level of sobriety & politeness. if they look sober, or look schizo, i might give some change. if you're drunk or are going to get drunk or shoot up or smoke crack, forget it. if you come up to me on private property when i'm filling my gas tank & try to run the "gas money to get back to enumscratch" con, fuck off. if i see you, sober, not crazy, in the same spot every day for 5 years, rattling a cup at me, and you're morbidly obese, i don't believe you are "homeless", and you can fuck off twice.

if you're in portland, you know as well as i there are homeless who've been out there 10+ years, working the same corners. i suspect victoria is the same, but they feel able to be more aggressive due to lenient policing. or something. i dunno.

there is no easy solution to homelessness.

[jessicazi]

31. I was in Seattle and was pulling out of a parking lot

and had this guy approach me aggressively while I was in my car. He did the whole lie of, "this is an emergency, I am out of gas money and need to go...." I said, "excuse me, I need to go." And he yelled some profanity at me. That has been my worst experience. I also had that line thrown at me in Salt Lake City. This must be the new scam going around.

[maxsolomon]

46. actually, the gas money scam is decades old

first time it was run on me was in chicago in 1983, i think. i was 18, 19. once you say "take me to the car", they're done with you.

[Radio_Lady]

66. I saw a rather scruffy man in a car -- with a sign saying "Out of gas...

need money, please help." There were at least two teenaged children in the car. This was at a rest stop on I-5 coming home through Washington state on Monday.

[anitar1]

75. Same here in Eugene. Some have been in the

same spot for many years.

[Radio_Lady]

80. When we moved to Oregon, I asked about the people on the roadways.

I was told that the case went to the Oregon Supreme Court and that these folks retained the right to populate the expressway exits to eke out their existence.

Do you know anything about that?

[LSU_Subversive]

90. teach me how to differentiate, by first impression, whether someone is

a crack-head or a chronic schizophrenic.

[quiet.american]

39. There but for the grace of God, go I.

That's always my first thought.

Second thought is, I could still end up that way.

Third thought is, "whatever ye do unto the least of these, ye also do unto Me."

Fourth thought is, "how did this person end up this way? Whose child is this? Where is their family? Was this person so difficult that family members gave up on them? Maybe everyone in their family has died out.... what did this person want to be when they were a kid? What happened?"

Fifth thought is silently to them, God bless you and help you.

[whistle]

42. You can ban street people I suppose, but then what does the....

...city do about them. After all, most of them are homeless, penniless, without work, unable to work, have no disability income and many are mentally ill or addicted to drugs or are alcoholic. Most of America's cities (Canada also) are too broke to deal with the problem of homelessness, or just don't care.

Here in Orlando, the problem is seasonal. The homeless seem to increase in numbers with the influx of snowbirds (tourists and seasonal visitors) around October and stay until April or May. We do have a some organizations that are supported by local businesses and budgeted for in the city budget such as the Coalition for the Homeless. Others, such as the Salvation Army and various veterans groups rely on the United Way funding and direct contributions and individual volunteers.

Still, we have panhandlers who stand at street intersections holding signs (work for food) or buckets for cash. Orlando also has bike patrols (city police on bicycles) who tour the parks and streets for any homeless people who may be engaged in nuisance type activities and usually keep that type of thing pretty much under control. However, the numbers of homeless in our city are growing and may become a major problem here as well as budgets are cut and the economy grows soft.

[HEyHEY]

43. Hurling bottles is a traditional Canadian Greeting

;-)

The thing is, the NDP shut down mental institutions, and the Liberals trimmed over 100,000 people off welfare, so many of these people have no where to go.

The "Safe streets" act banning aggresive panhandlng was recently passed in BC, but has little effect, however, write a letter to the Times Colonist about it.

[Radio_Lady]

56. My husband remembers it as just a band of rowdy kids throwing bottles

on a Saturday night. The bottles were not being thrown at us, he insists.

I must admit -- we stayed at the Traveller's Inn on Discovery Street at the intersection with Douglas. Our room had a window facing Douglas on the ground floor. That room was very noisy from throbbing music on car radios, humans yelling, and other sounds for most of the weekend. It was quieter on the weekdays.

Not sure I'll take the time to write to the newspaper, but thanks for the suggestion. In general, we had a great time in Canada, although we never caught up with Canuck Amok! Maybe next time...

Making peace a priority,

Radio_Lady

[faithnotgreed]

44. my "opinion" is LOVE

the way people - and animals and all living things - are treated in this culture is a punch in my gut

there are many deep and painful reasons why people are cast off and cast out
i just wish we could meet them with any measure of love
there are many complications and many reasons people have no home and no life of which to speak

many are veterans
many are mentally ill
many have gut wrenching addictions
many have been so hurt they retreat into whatever world they can get by in or will accept them
many dont fit into the life into which they were born or in which they were pushed

but damnit

they are ALL human

on edit: i try to follow the teachings of Jesus
of course i make many mistakes and never have all the answers but if theres one thing that i hold myself to
it is love for all peoples and all living things
if i lose that i lose everything

the level of callousness and self focus in our culture is the great indicator
poverty of all kinds should be the priority of the people and its government

[Double T]

48. The panhandlers and homeless are often mentally ill or disturbed people...

that have no means of support as the funding and facilities for the mentally ill have been closed and programs abandoned by State and Federal legislators. I can not even imagine the despair and hopelessness that these people probably feel living in the streets and begging for their other needs. Anything that can be done to help these unfortunate fellow citizens is a good thing.

[Horse with no Name]

57. especially when many of them had been sheltered

in group homes, etc. prior to funding being jerked out from under them. They have absolutely no idea how to take care of themselves.
But we have plenty of prisons full of non-violent offenders that are well staffed and well funded don't we?:sarcasm:

[Jersey Devil]

55. They are OK with me as long as they don't have a squeegy

It was the death penalty in NY under Rudy to attempt to clean a winshield with a squeegy. Now, don't get me wrong, I am all for clean car winshields, but goddammit, they always used a dirty squeegy on clean windows, most often just after you get out of the car wash!

[Radio_Lady]

60. The squeegee brigade was out in Canada, too! We waved the one

guy off who tried it...

[Cleita]

58. Well, I don't know why Canada has them but I remember a

time when America didn't have homeless. There were skid row bums and panhandlers, but most of them weren't homeless either. There were flop houses most of them stayed in or plenty of room at the shelter. They were so few that the shelters that did minister to them were able to take care of their basic needs without any strain on them.

Then in the late seventies, there was a wholesale dumping of marginal people from mental health hospitals, Vet's old soldiers homes, and group homes. All these marginal people, the majority who were mentally ill or mentally retarded, became street people. This was a result of Proposition 13 in California and Proposition 13 type of legislation in most other states, lowering the property taxes that paid for these programs.

Also, hand in hand was the housing boom of the eighties, where ordinary family homes' values escalated in value at an alarming rate. Rentals rose at an alarming rate. A rash of more affordable condos came to be built and many apartment owners seeing a money windfall converted their apartment houses into condos. The result, again, poor people couldn't afford the rent or to buy their apartments were thrown out into the street.

The Reagan/Bush years saw a rise in unemployment and cost of living. Most working class families, especially the single mom ones, were a paycheck away from homelessness. If the bread winner lost their job, they ended up in the streets. We had a family that parked in the alley behind our building, who slept in the car, while mom went to work everyday, after months of being unemployed, trying to get back on her feet. Some charitable, no doubt "Christian" person reported them to the police and they disappeared.

So I know how we could fix homelessness in our country, but it seems it is almost becoming institutionalized and accepted. I really don't know why Canada has a problem.

[pinto]

59. Thanks for asking. I support making peace a priority, with the homeless,

the poor, the addicted, the mentally ill, the wounded and those who choose the street for whatever reason. It would bode us well, I think, to recognize the dirty, loud street people as our own.

Thanks again - my $.02.

[Greyhound]

61. I've been talking about this for, what, 23 years now.

Ever since this country, so whole heartedly, embraced the "I've got mine, fuck you" attitude in the early 80's. As the ranks of the homeless grow ever larger, what do you think is going to happen? They'll just lay down and die? They'll suddenly find a job that'll pay them enough to live? The endless hours of boredom, interrupted by moments of sheer terror, will cause them to spontaneously heal their minds, or forget the hand to hand in the jungle, or whatever it was that made them unacceptable to our society? They annoy the hell out of me too and the aggressive one's get more than they bargained for when they come at me, but how will banning them fix the problem? Oh wait! We can house them in our jails, yeah that's it. Maybe they they'll learn how to stay alive another way, like robbery or mugging. Then they can be arrested and housed, at taxpayer expense, again. Then when they get out they'll be looking at one of our more brilliant ideas, three strikes laws. Well WTF if they're risking a life sentence why piss around with petty theft, better to not leave any witnesses.
AAAAAAARRRRRGGGGHHHH! :banghead:

[Orsino]

67. Vancouver's Gastown is full of panhandlers.

My wife and I were warned in advance, and went only in broad daylight. They seemed peaceful enough, and it gave me something to do with that silly Canadian money.

[Ignoramus]

72. Homed people aren't hollier than the homeless

The main problem I think is people's attitudes toward the homeless. I've been homeless before. It sucks. Nearly everyone thinks you are scum.

There is a hurdle you have to get over to get anywhere in the world. If you look "normal" and know how to say "Isn't the weather lovely. How are you? I'm fine." properly, then you pass. If you can't manage to do it right, then you are cast out.

To get a job you have to know how to wear the right costume, repeat the same throw away chitchat, and know the right answers to irrelevant trick job interview questions.

Common notions of "adulthood" and being a good citizen, actually amount to demoralization. Until you have been demoralized you are outcast.

There is the mythical notion of a membership in a community matching up with your tribe, or your village, or your city etc., which you learn is false soon enough, if people determine that you are one of the outcast.

We don't have what is portrayed in "these are the people in your neighborhood". The role of a city is a combination company store/labor camp. The police exist to keep production flowing. Homeless people are those who were rejected.

As a reject, you are still a human and have human responses to hardship. If you have gone from school to employment, it's very possible you don't appreciate how incredibly traumatizing it is to be considered human garbage. It's quite possible you would react in anger , frustration and self-hatred.

How do you deal with your loved ones when they freak out? That's roughly how violent homeless people should be treated.

There is a great movie called Jupiter's Wife, that I thought was very thought provoking:

http://el.net/jupiters-wife/wife.html

In the movie, this incredibly creative homeless woman eventually gets sanitized, the result being she lives in a box, eats, works, shits, maybe creates more laborers and presumably eventually dies. I found her life as a homeless woman for more interesting and healthy.

[SeattleGirl]

74. Forgot about something else I did re: the homeless

In the mid-70's, I belonged to a group where I had an assignment to feed the homeless. I lived in Eugene, and had to take sandwiches to the Old Town area in Portland. I was only 21 or 22 at the time. I made three grocery bags full of sandwiches and hit the road. Got there at dawn, and I was scared to pieces. But I forged ahead, because I am not a quitter.

I parked my car and took my bags over to the sidewalk in front of some buildings. I stood there, heart in my throat, waiting. Soon, a man in his 50's came over to me and wanted to know what I was doing. I told him I had come to bring some food to the homeless people. He asked why, and I could have told him some story, but felt that that would be wrong, so explained that this was an assignment I was given. He said, okay, wait here. So I waited, and soon he came back with a couple of other men. He nodded at me, and I took several sandwiches from my bag. The man looked at the other men, nodded and they cane over and took the food from me, and then quickly left.

Soon, more and more men (and several women) came over to me to get sandwiches. I recall one came, ate his sandwich, and then asked if he could have one for his buddy. I gave him one, and he disappeared. The man who had originally come up to me, and was always standing near me, told me that this was not a disconnected collection of hapless people, but rather a community. They looked out for each other, took care of each other, and they all had buddies (hence the request from the one man). I was told that these people may be mostly invisible in "normal" society, but they had a much of a community as anyone.

I soon gave out all my sandwiches, and decided to hang around for awhile talking to my new friend. He told me bits and pieces about some of the people I had fed, and I'll tell you, I came away from an experience that forever changed how I viewed the homeless.

[TrogL]

79. You mean the ones walking up and down my back alley?

Sleeping out back of the 7-11?

Asking politely for pop bottles to trade in at the recycling place?

It gets to 40 below zero here. It's not just a warm-weather problem.

Many people are homeless because they simply cannot cope or fit into modern society. Many are learning disabled or mentally ill or horribly addicted.

The solution is a working social security net.

[Radio_Lady]

82. How would a "working Social Security net" work in your opinion?

[TrogL]

98. I'm glad you asked that (rant)

I was meaning to rejoin this thread last night and give you a real ear full. I've got a few minutes now.

1. Universal Health Care Insurance
   
2. Universal drug plan
   
3. Universal child care
   
4. Government run/supervised low-income housing
   
5. mobile health/social services clinics
   

That's similar to the way things are run in Canada now, but I'd beef it up. I'd also allow for-profit implementation of all of the above, but with strict government regulation (eg. to prevent fundies from turning facilities into Bible-mobiles or Jesus schools).

I live in a fairly nasty part of town (by Canadian standards)(footnote 1). I've had used needles in my garbage and used condoms in my front yard. I live two blocks from a hooker strip one direction and four blocks another direction. There's always disreputable looking vehicles driving up and down the alley, people on bicycles with carts towed behind going through my garbage looking for bottles. I've had my garage broken into twice and my house once. Directly across the alley there's a group home for wayward kids and they cause a certain amount of disruption. When I've got my windows open I can hear the neighbours screaming and fighting.
Nevertheless, the area is becoming "gentrified" by people buying fix-er-up-ers and fixing them up. I first twigged onto the idea visiting friends of mine who live a few blocks over. They bought a wreck, spent two years and about CAN $10,000 renovating their place and now they've got a really nice place. Same with a guy across the alley (next to the group home) at the end of the block on that side. . One realtor actually has a show-home 2nd from the end the other side showing how it can be done.

The problem for some existing residents is that property taxes are going to go up as new owners spruce the place up. As a result, rents are going to up to the point where some people can't afford it, and they have to move to other places.

The end result is that the so-called "slums" are going to become compacted. I don't want to see this develop into the kind of housing nightmares you see in "the projects" in the states. I don't have an overall master plan, but here's a few examples.

I work downtown in an area of large office buildings combined with large apartment blocks. There's one building in particular that comes to mind. It's about 5 storeys tall and seems to be occupied exclusively by older, single men kind of down in their luck. The parking lot's full of beaters and there's a front foyer where men just seem to congregate and sit. The building is well-maintained. There's an up-to-date security system on the door and cameras on the parking lots and entrances. Directly across the street is the Worker's Compensation office and there's a social security office down the next block. I suspect these men are fixed-income pensioners on a support program.

The city uses a system of "community based policing". There are four or five large "cop shops" but there are also many small two-three man community store-fronts as well. There's one down the block from me going one direction and four blocks the other direction. There are also routine patrols in either a two-man car or on bicycles (depending on the weather). The city recently bought a police helicopter and it spends a fair bit of time flying over my neighbourhood. I'm often in my back yard late (I've got a firepit) and wave as they go past. In addition the city sponsors block parents, block patrols, a tips line and the Community Police Radio Network (I used to be a member). The police here are not considered "enemies" except by a very small group of hard-core criminals. I've been on several "drivealongs" with the police. Their function is primarily "peacekeeping". When they respond to domestic violence calls, the end result is usually sorting out which social service agency to involve rather than an arrest.

There is one section town that could possibly be considered a "slum". It's called the Boyle Street area. The houses are fairly run down and a few are boarded up because of health concerns. In this area, however, are two interesting places. The Boyle Street co-op and the Mustard Seed church. The Boyle Street co-op is a drop-in area for down-in-their-luck and homeless people where they can get in out of the snow and get help. I drive by in the morning just before they open and there's usually an orderly line of about 30 people waiting to get in. I'm not entirely sure how it's all funded (I know the city and province and a multi-disciplinary church group are involved) or organized, but it's well spoken of in all circles. The Mustard Seed church serves a similar function but is specifically church led. I know a few people who have worked there. In the same neck of the woods there's also a large Salvation Army setup and a few other church-led drop-in places (footnote 2). Social services has a drive-around van that gives out needles and condoms and checks up on the hookers (free medical) and at least one of the church groups has a "get out of the cold warmup" van. Social services also has a 24-hour on call troubled youth centre that will send a team out (I had to use them one time when my son went off his meds). The drug store down the street is open from 8 a.m. to midnight. There's a special program set up where people being treated for drug addiction come in and get their daily methadone shot. There's usually a line at the door at 8 a.m. of people waiting for their shot.

My church sponsors a residence for recovering alcoholics. They have 40 beds and a complete program of addictions counseling. The church runs it, but the city and province provide most of the funding. Qualifying for this funding takes a significant amount of effort and documentation. You have to prove that your program is working and that it's doing what you say it's doing (eg. not a glorified church).

Now I'm certainly not saying there are no "bums". Just north of me is 118th ave. It's a stretch of strip malls, failed businesses, a boarded up hotel (health department shut them down), hookers, shady car dealerships and pawn shops. There's plenty of "strange" people on the street begging for money, staggering drunk (or drugged) or raving incoherently, shabbily dressed sleeping on benches or camped out in cardboard boxes in the alley. Nevertheless, social services very likely knows exactly who they are, where they are and has a file on them. They've even got a hooker task force (started when a freeper went on a hooker killing spree) keeping tabs on them.

Anybody below a certain income qualifies for welfare. Welfare pays your health care insurance, a minimum "wage" and you're assigned a social worker. You WILL check in with your social worker or there's hell to pay.

Here's an example of how it all works. You're walking down the street and there's somebody passed out in the middle of the sidewalk. You walk to a phone booth and call the police. A few minutes later the community police station (which is right down the block) two-man car shows up. Very like they know who it is and what his problem is. They'll either get him medical attention or take him home. First however, they will confirm that he's got some sort of support system. If not, he'll be taken to a 24-hour social services office, registered and some sort of help will be set up.

The problem with many social services schemes is NIMBY (footnote 3). When I first moved to my house I was concerned about the group home across the alley. There's often kids hanging around out back having a cigarette or walking back and forth to the convenience store down the block. However, I've gotten to know them and I guess I've gotten a "rep" as an OK guy because I'm willing to give them a light and let them occasionally come over to the firepit. The only problem I've had is with one autistic kid who figured because I gave him a light at 4 p.m. it was OK to bang on my door at 3 a.m. for one. We got it sorted out. The thing is, it's a small group home. They've got about 8 kids max and a social worker on-site 24 hours a day. These group homes are all over the place. Nobody can say NIMBY because everybody's got one already.

How does it all work? Taxes. I've had many people say "I could never live in Canada because of the high taxes". Well guess what? What do you think is paying for the clean streets, well-maintained sidewalks, the group homes, the needle van and all the other stuff. That's the cost.

Here's one of the benefits. It's been found that good infrastructure reduces crime. I was in NY city in the 70's. The subway cars were covered with graffiti. The stations were a mess. There was a high crime rate. NY cleaned up the cars so they were nice and shiny, cleaned up the stations and the crime rate went waaaay down.

Canadian politics is always fun to watch - and downright inscrutable to many people(footnote 4). We recently had a conference of Premiers that was all over the papers billed as a huge controversy. The topic of discussion - you guessed it - infrastructure. Premiers wanted more money for cities and highways. Gay marriage got about five minutes. The premier most against it basically said "whatever". The ruling party (Liberals) runs on a platform of basically Keynesian economics (one Prime Minister actually studied with Keynes) and left-wing social issues. There's a fair bit of uproar every time they threaten to lower - that's right lower taxes. People like their infrastructure and their health care system and have no qualms paying for it.

I'd better summarize.

Basically, there needs to be a grass-roots, community based, in-your-face infrastructure of social services paid for with high taxes (with a bit of help from non-profit groups), centrally coordinated at the city level following federal standards.

Cities need to encourage "gentrification" of their slums and provide pockets of low-cost-housing in all areas of town. Social services and police offices need to be radically de-centralized to the point of one every few blocks as well as needle, hooker-health and warmup vans staffed by social services personnel. Cities need to clean up their streets, pave their roads, enforce their health codes and get their act together.


Footnotes:

1. We had visitors from the United States and they commented on our clean streets, well-maintained sidewalks and asphalt and a distinct lack of "bums". They asked to be driven to see our slums so we drove to pretty much where I live now and I announced, "OK here's our slum". They were kind of speechless for a moment, then said "this isn't a slum. Where we come from this is considered middle class residential. Where's your area of burned out buildings, drugs openly sold on the street etc." to which I kinda looked blank and said "um...we don't really have one."
   
2. I do have specific issues with this mixture of church and state but it seems to work in these cases. Primarily I don't have a problem with a church-run drop-in centre as long as its primary purpose is caring for the homeless etc. I would certainly object if there was a religious requirement (eg. change religion, or be forcibly baptized) to getting assistance.
   
3. Not In My Back Yard - the politician's nightmare.
   
4. Canada has a federal parliament containing factions of political parties (there's even a Marijuana Party but they don't have any seats - yet). The head of the winning political party automatically becomes Prime Minister. The individual provinces have individual political parties. The head of the winning party becomes the Premier of the province.
   

[SmokingJacket]

83. Not everyone can or should be expected to live like a middle-class

American. Some are mentally ill, some are drug-addicted, some are just not cut out for middle-class life for one reason or another. And of course many are just plain down on their luck.

"Banning" the homeless would add indescribably to their misery, and wouldn't do much for the middle-class people who are so pained at having to walk past them, except allow them to (falsely) believe that all's right with the world, and everyone is happy and comfortable just like them.

That said, no one has the right to harrass anyone else, either. I don't have any objection to laws against aggressive panhandling. But people should be allowed to sleep on benches, and cities should have adequate bathroom facilities for them. And putting out a cup or a guitar case should be allowed, too.

[AtomicKitten]

86. In San Francisco

there is really a dichotomy between the ultra-rich and the downtrodden. Really sad. Plus it's freakin' cold here. On the other hand, in Santa Cruz, the street people have it made. They always have free food and shelter. The sad and unfortunate part is that those that really need it, the mentally ill people who don't have the faculties to seek out help, remain victims of our society. Hey, I'm struggling, paycheck to paycheck, so I have the utmost sympathy for those that have fallen through the cracks. The difference between Dems and Repubs is that Dems don't mind sustaining welfare fraud as long as help reaches the people that really need it. It's tough out there.

[OneBlueSky]

87. there, but for the grace of God, go I . . . n/t

.

[Fire Walk With Me]

88. A Buddhist document calls homeless people a sign of a dark age.

[imperialismispasse]

92. I give whatever change I have in my pocket.

They need it more than I do. Like someone said above this, no matter how bad my day is, theirs is worse.

[converted_democrat]

93. I give whatever I have in my pocket.

Why not? As long as my bills are paid, what do I need the extra money for? Homeless people are not a "nuisance." They are human beings that are down on their luck, mentally ill, or addicted to something. But the thing to remember is that they are human. I feel truly sorry for some who have replied on this board. You best pray that your life never takes the same turn as these poor souls. Then pray if it does that you meet someone who will help you, instead of judge you and call you a nuisance as some on this board have. I got news folks, hard economic times are soon going to befall most of the U.S., just no way around it. Karma is an odd thing.

[rman]

94. The terrible result of the RW's greed-based policies.

[lukasahero]

95. I gave a guy $4 the other day

(it was what I had on hand) and he looked at me and said "thank you, I'll have dinner with this tonight." I wanted to cry.

Now, I'm carrying some fresh peaches and some meal replacement bars in my bag with me just in case I see him again.

This guy wasn't "deranged" or "dirty" or "drugged out". He was out of work and out of a home. He needed help and I had/have some help to offer so I did. I don't have power, I don't have a job to offer him or a place to let him stay, but I had four dollars that day and he needed it more than I did. I've always considered that to be a founding ideal of the Democratic party. Not to mention that whole "Christian" values thingie...

[lectrobyte]

96. Slip 'em a few bucks. nt

[Radio_Lady]

97. Your comments will be part of my audio show, aired on Monday, 08/29

at 1PM Pacific Time (2PM MT, 3PM CT, 4PM ET) on the Internet.

Please PM me if you want to know more about my weekly show.

Thanks so much for your participation and your interest.

Making peace a priority,

Radio Lady
Portland, Oregon