What is antidote for the Goering rule of war? - DU think-tank, little help

[bpilgrim]

We can see the neoCON's and their elite base in the M$MWs use this simple principle with devastating effect DAILY.

We have been exposing lies constantly but that doesn't seem to be very effective and the more fucked up things get (attacks in the west) the better their position.

How do we counter this effectively?

Gustave Gilbert, an intelligence officer, interviewed Hermann Goering at Nuremberg on 18th April, 1946.

We got around to the subject of war again and I said that, contrary to his attitude, I did not think that the common people are very thankful for leaders who bring them war and destruction.

"Why, of course, the people don't want war," Goering shrugged. "Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."

"There is one difference," I pointed out. "In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars."

"Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

http://news.globalfreepress.com

tia :toast:

peace

[SteppingRazor]

1. Fight fire with fire?

Tell the people they are being attacked by the very people using that rhetoric. Denouce those people for lack of patriotism... hmm doesn't seem to work both ways. :shrug:

[bpilgrim]

10. a fight for the patriot title

we - liberals - sure got a lot be proud of over the years, but our leaders seem to run away from even that heritage these days.

thats certainly another reason we need to embrace our heritage and promise once again.

but when it comes to FEAR... that is a tall order to over come.

a battle for hearts-n-minds continues, we need a STRONG, CLEAR MSG to counter their arguments.

reTHUG-lite is obviously a losing strat in these post 911 days and nights... our leaders need to take their cue from the moms, dads, young & old (weTHEpeople) in the streets :bounce:


http://media.globalfreepress.com

(sorry to be so rambling, just thinking 'out-loud')

peace

[sam sarrha]

2. that is why the dont like the comparisons to Hitler, where's my jackboots?

[bpilgrim]

9. maybe, but you know the CW...

first 1 who mentions nazi germany looses.

:shrug:

peace

[Yupster]

3. Goering was quite an interesting person

He took over the Flying Circus when the Red Baron was killed in WWI. Came out of the war as a dashing war hero.

One of the first stars to join the Nazi Party gave Hitler legitimacy.

Got shot in the groin in the Beer Hall Putsch and became a morphine addict.

Hurt the German war effort but popular with common people. Can be blamed with Hitler and Paulus for the Stalingrad debacle/

Surrendered at the end of the war and weaned off drugs during his imprisonment.

Again became his impressive self during his Nuremburg Trial displaying wit and intelligence.

Was sentenced to hang, but took poison the night before. Left the prison commander a note so he wouldn't bleme the guard watching him for his suicide. Said he had the poison, and a backup capsule the whole time he was imprisoned.

Interesting historical character.

[bpilgrim]

4. is this an insurmountable law of politics?

:shrug:

peace

[magellan]

5. It's a bit more insidious than Goering's blurb lets on

You have to dehumanize the enemy. That's done in gradual steps.

Think back to how the Bush** Administration went about it. First they intentionally overstepped the bounds on the separation of church and state to rile people who believe religion has no business in government. Then they turned around and subtly drew a dividing line between those who were upset by it and those who welcomed it: those of "no faith" and those with "good family values and a belief in God". Generally, this divided people along Democrat/Republican lines because Dems are less likely to force their beliefs on others and Republicans didn't want to seem out of step with their party.

The stratification intensified after 9/11 with the build-up to the Iraq war. Now you were either a "patriot" who supported the war or a "traitor" who sympathized with the terrorists. Actually Dems and Liberals -- hardly smitten with Bush** -- were more likely to see through the lies so dissented and were labeled "traitors", while Republicans rallied around the flag with Bush** and called themselves "patriots". Suddenly you were either a good American or a "Liberal".

All of this according to those in charge, of course. And BushCo are still calling the shots, still hammering in those wedges with impunity, mostly because -- as with everything else BushCo does -- no Dems have spoken out strongly and consistently against their fascist tactics.

The non-stop name-calling from the Right is angering for its immaturity, but it plays a central role in the dehumanization process. This is how troops were prepared for Vietnam (gooks and commies). It's how they prepare troops for Iraq (ragheads and hajis).

And as we know, many on the Right freely and indiscriminately apply these kind of derogatory labels to ANYONE who disagrees with them. That's another sign that someone has been successfully desensitized to the idea that you're a fellow American exercising your Constitutional rights. In fact it's gone on unchecked for too long now. The damage has been done. Judging by polls, I'd say a good third of the American public buy into the "I'm an American and you're not, you hippie commie liberal" mentality.

And don't doubt for a moment, people who think that way will kill you if given the proper motive and half an opportunity.

Our police are just as exposed, and this worries me greatly. Some of them will not see peaceful protesters on the streets of Washington in September...They'll see threats to the American way of life.

I don't like to think what might happen if there's another "attack" and BushCo uses it as an excuse to impose martial law.

[bpilgrim]

7. no Dem's have spoken out strongly and consistently against their fascist..

"no Dem's have spoken out strongly and consistently against their fascist tactics."

i think that is because they know how it will play out according to the Goering law so they don't wanna walk into it.

i really don't see an effective strategy against that simplistic law of politics other than the people taking the streets.

i think our politicians are effectively neutered and the neoCONs & the DLC are exploiting that to the hilt and only massive civil disobedience will effectively counter it before it's too late.

thanks for sharing :toast:

peace

[Larkspur]

16. Howard Dean has but he gets the "nutty" and "unhinged" labels slapped on

him by the Media and the Lieberman Wing of the Dem Party publicly rebukes him for attacking Repukes.

[bpilgrim]

17. exactly

it really is up to weTHEpeople

peace

[ikri]

6. The answer, unfortunately

Relies upon the fourth estate.

If the media actually do their job the leaders should never get the opportunity to put out the messages required to dupe the public into backing an unjust war.

Democracy relies upon an informed populace, remove accurate information from the populace and they will have nothing more than hearsay and government diktats to base their opinions. If this occurs, a sufficiently charismatic leader can essentially lead their country anywhere.

[bpilgrim]

8. but the M$MW's are owned

i think it is simply left up to weTHEpeople, now.

we need the internets to pass the word and the streets to shut it down.

:hi:

peace

[Larkspur]

11. I think Cindy Sheehan is answering your question

Mahatma Gandi, the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., and Nelson Mandela also refuted Goering's philosophy. They too were maligned by the Powers-that-Be but they defeated their antagonists by using Jesus basic philosophy -- "Love your enemies and pray for those that persecute you." They did not demonize their oppressors but they did resist the wicked and inhumane things they did. Non-violent protest does not immune you to attacks or physical violence, but consistantly following this path and perservering in the face of attacks is what changes the oppressor and "fence sitters" to supporting your cause.

Goering's philosophy is the same tactic every schoolyard bully uses -- divide and conquer. When good people unite and challenge bullies and they fulfill this Ethiopian saying -- When spider webs unite, they can halt a lion.

[bpilgrim]

12. i agree, it's up to weTHEpeople since our leaders are still resisting

maybe they are thinking about how effective dissenting mothers were/are when states operate under that principle.

and with the neoCONs now attacking her and her supporters as being UNPATRIOTIC there can be no question what principle they are operating under.


more...
http://news.globalfreepress.com/gallery/index.php?cat=13

thanks for sharing :toast:

peace

[Cleita]

13. Funny, I sent that quote from Goering to AP as part of our activist

mail that we sent protesting that one of their reporters had called the "God Bless Bush" Crawford partisans patriots, but didn't extend the same adjective to the Cindy supporters.

I told them that inferring the war protestors weren't patriotic by calling the pro-war crowd patriotic was as bad as calling them unpatriotic. I then put that quote in the letter. I haven't heard any acknowledgement that they received my mail yet or read it.

[bpilgrim]

18. it is an excellent summary of their strategy...

you probably just got added to the club-gitmo list ;->


http://media.globalfreepress.com

peace

[Cleita]

21. F*** them. I could care less.

I've lived my life, so the time I have left will be used fighting these cowardly bullies. If they find me so threatening, so be it. You are never wrong telling the truth. They already tampered with my tax return making it arrive past the postal date at the IRS, but they stupidly left such a trail that even the IRS had to agree with me.

[wli]

14. I'm expecting to die in a death camp at this point.

These fascist genocidal maniacs are pretty much aping the Nazis outright, and would have no qualms about putting millions of "unbelievers" to death.

[Cleita]

15. They would have to take out half the population and I think

most of the half would catch on before it went too far. This is where they are so much dumber than the Nazis. Hitler focused his hatred on a narrow demographic, one that most Germans could say, I'm not one of them, so I'm not concerned they will come for me. But when they carry on about liberals with that broad brush of theirs, we all sit back and say, hey they are talking about us.

[bpilgrim]

23. they used a broad brush, too

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a communist;

Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a socialist;

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a trade unionist;

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out - because I was not a Jew;

Then they came for me - and there was no one left to speak out for me.

Martin Niemöller 1946 (re: nazi germany)

more...
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERniemoller.htm

peace

[Cleita]

26. That was it, they did it incrementally.

The neo-cons just scream sandalous, treasonous, unAmerican, unpatriotic liberals. Really, they should go after the tie-die Birkenstock liberals first. That way liberals who aren't in that demography will say, "Oh, they aren't upset with me." Then they can go after the atheist liberals... well you get the drift.

[bpilgrim]

20. resist the beginnings, consider the end

http://media.globalfreepress.com

i hear ya, these fucking crazies won't stop till they top the horror of the fascist of yesteryear, who we thought were all resigned to the ash-heap of history :argh:

peace

[txaslftist]

19. The antidote? Change the leaders.

[bpilgrim]

22. we've tried that, twice

and they stole it, twice


http://media.globalfreepress.com

peace

[txaslftist]

24. Wow. I love that Daily Mirror cover there.

Awesome.

[wli]

25. we never voted this Hitler wannabe into office in the first place

And we showed up in record numbers to get him out of office in 2004.

The elections were defrauded, and so none of it worked.

[trof]

27. Thanks. You inspired this LTTE I just sent:

Local bi-weekly in rural, coastal Alabama
I may regret it when the death threats start.

Could it happen here?

Hermann Goering was Commander-in-Chief of Hitler's air force, the Luftwaffe.
He was also officially designated as Hitler's successor, should anything happen to the fuehrer.

In April of 1946, Herr Goering was cooling his heels in an allied military prison in Nuremberg, Germany.
He had been found guilty of conspiracy to wage war, crimes against peace, war crimes and crimes against humanity.
Later sentenced to hang, he escaped the noose by taking a cyanide pill he'd somehow smuggled in.

He was interviewed by Gustave Gilbert, a German speaking U. S. intelligence officer.
Gilbert recorded Goering's observations that the common people can always be manipulated into supporting and fighting wars by their political leaders:

"We got around to the subject of war again, and I said that, contrary to his attitude, I did not think that the common people are very thankful for leaders who bring them war and destruction."

"Why, of course, the people don't want war," Goering shrugged. "Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."

"There is one difference," I pointed out. "In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars."

"Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

What do you think? Could it happen here? Has it?

XXXX XXXXXX
XXXXXX, AL

[bpilgrim]

28. excellent!

I think that is one way to counter this tactic by educating folks to it.

If folks are aware of the strat, it will be less effective.

thanks for pass'n the word trof :toast:

peace

[bpilgrim]

29. hmmm...

http://media.globalfreepress.com

peace