Winter 2005/2006 heating costs-will poor people be able to have heat?

[imperialismispasse]

Hi, this is my first thread in general discussion forum, be gentle.:)

Everyone is talking about gasoline prices and they are really bad here in Philadelphia too. I was thinking today about the upcoming winter. Maybe people in other parts of the country don't hear these stories but here in the northeast part of the country there is always stories on the news every winter about poor families being found frozen in their houses. A lot of old houses have oil heat and natural gas is going up too. Also a lot of apartments have electric heat and that's going up too because PECO (the electric co) uses oil to create electricity. They (PECO) have no sympathy either, they will turn off your electricity for nonpayment no matter what your circumstance is.

I think we are going to hear a lot more horror stories this winter. Yeah there are organizations here that will help low income families (usually only with kids) if they can't heat their homes, but a lot of people don't know about those programs and what about the people who don't have kids?

[Zenlitened]

1. You're right. I think about this every day, and I'm not poor. :(

I had some eye-popping heating bills last winter, even keeping the thermostat so low it was COLD -- not just chilly -- in the house.

For me, that means I bite the bullet and pay the bill, regretting the dent in my bank account.

For the poor, and for people living paycheck-to-paycheck just to afford life's necesseties... well, it must be terrifying. :(

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[imperialismispasse]

6. I haven't seen that here.

And if a family is living hand to mouth do you think they have it together enough to set that up and stick to it year round? Everyone I know's bills go up in the winter because of heat.

[ohio_liberal]

13. There are usually HEAP programs and percentage of income plans

It's still tough to pay very high heating costs if you're poor. This is just a bandaid for a larger problem.

[Lars39]

26. A lot of these programs are being drastically reduced.

:(

[Conservativesux]

39. More greed by the big corporations!!

x)

[halobeam]

65. What are "percentage of income plans?" ...

we used Heap until my husband was approved for diability, which then they said "we make too much money" for Heap. Long story, but we fell through the cracks. (We are budgeted monthly at 500.00/mth for gas and electric.) I haven't heard of any programs about % of income plans... do you have any more info? TIA

[Tyler Durden]

8. Welcome, but OH REALLY??

My gas bill (with only Hot Water and Heat "back up" for the heat pump on it) averages (in Michigan) between $60/month in Summer to over $125/month in Winter.

Don't know about YOU, but an average of $90/a month BEFORE I pay mortgage, gasoline, insurance, water, electricity...is what I commonly call a TASTE.

You must be YOUNG and SINGLE.

By the way, WELCOME.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ohio_liberal]

18. I'm sure your DU experience would've been better....

If you hadn't jumped in with something so incredibly stupid.

[MissB]

23. Welcome to DU!

Enjoy your stay.

[imperialismispasse]

25. I didn't rail at you I just replied to your reply.

But you seem like you want to believe the worst anyway so I guess bye. Besides did you say "our" party? Isn't it your party too? You know how they make you read that whole thing about how this is a message board for progressives before you can join? I don't think they were kidding about that.

[JanusAscending]

28. Well,

When your wrong, you're wrong! Unless you're a Bush sympathizer. Did you even read any of the reasons we thought you were wrong, or don't you consider peoples personal experiences as vaid? We weren't attacking you, just expressing opposing opinions!! We do debate here on DU, but we are not supposed to "ATTACK" If you don't like to debate, maybe DU is the wrong place for you? You seem to think you have all the answers, and I, for one who TRIED to welcome you to our site, am deeply offended by your second post!!

[Tyler Durden]

33. No offense to other Ohioans...

But as we said in Ann Arbor, Michigan:

Isn't a "Buckeye" some sort of NUT?

[mconvente]

43. lol - don't let the door hit your ass on the way out

Our party isn't dead because of people like us, it's "dead" because "moderates" like you have your head so far up your ass that you can't see all the bullshit Bush and his cronies are doing. Jerkoff.

[mconvente]

44. haha 2 posts and banned already quite a record

fuck off, freeper

[imperialismispasse]

47. I don't like to tattle but I have to admit I did click the alert button.

The way he said "your party" just seemed wrong. And about the "tree hugging". I definitely wouldn't call my self a "tree hugger" but I am a progressive and I don't think that guy was.

[BiggJawn]

11. Oh, you're so FOS.

"Non-issue"?

Flat rate plan is like being slowly bled to death instead of having your Aorta slashed.
You still pay the same unaffordable price for energy, it's just spread out into 12 nerve-wracking instalments instead of 4 heart-stoppers in the winter.

You obviously do not live paycheck to paycheck. Why don't you take some of that excess resources you must have and go buy a clue?

Oh, BTW, "Welcome to DU" :sarcasm:

[JanusAscending]

15. How can you say, or even think that?

Sure you can get a "flat rate" otherwise known as a BUDGET plan, but miss one payment and you're out of the program. There are energy assistant programs to aid poor familys from most States in the Northeast, but Bush and Co. have cut way back on the federal funds for these!!! I am one of the ones living on a fixed income, and with oil going up the way it is, I'm not sure how much help I'm going to get this winter. They did help quite a bit last year, but now my oil comp. sent me a notice that this year deliverys will be payment on delivery only!! Anyone relying on Electric for heat,could, if there's a sick or elderly person in the household, get a written letter from their Dr. to the power company. This protects them from ever getting their power turned off. Maybe I misunderstood you, but from what you wrote, I think you're dead wrong! Tell me, what good does it do a low income person to have the same amount on your bill every mo., if the damn bill is too high? They average it out , you know?:wow: :hi: Welcome to DU!!!

[Junkdrawer]

19. Yes, then you'll be unable to afford power all year long...

:wtf:

[lapislzi]

24. Not exactly

Your "flat-rate" plan (I'm on one) is pegged to the price of heating oil, which suppliers "cap" during late July/early August--the cap is a guarantee that even if prices rise duing the season, you won't be charged more (or less, either). The oil company estimates your usage based on your history and averages it out over a 12-month period, usually with a fee for service amortized in also. So no matter what, your price this year will be higher than your price last year. In Westchester and Putnam, NY, the companies have capped anywhere from $2.50 to $2.90. I shopped around. It's all about 40% higher than it was this time last year.

40% increase is certainly not a "non-issue" for a lot of people around here.

Welcome to DU, by the way!

[JanusAscending]

66. Hi there!

I think you misunderstood my post? When I mentioned "flat rate" or budget plan, I wasn't refering to oil, only electric or gas. I have oil heat, and the first year I moved in here, I was able to prepay for a full seasons oil supply. Last year oil was beginning to rise, and they were too afraid to lock in rate for the season. They had no idea how high it was going to rise, and were afraid they'd loose their shirts. I haven't inquired what they plan on doing this year, but very few people are going to be able to have a running account. Mostly "cash on delivery"!! Remember, I'm in the far northwest corner of Ct. ( New England weather ya' know?) This guy that got in and out so fast was a real "Pill" to say it kindly!

[Zenlitened]

45. Flat-rate is basically a matter of averaging. If energy costs are going up

... believe me, you're gonna know about it when it comes time to pay the bills.

[Zenlitened]

46. Dang! The little shit-for-brains is already tombstoned.

Really impressive capacity to reason there, huh? Man, the quality of trolls really has been slipping lately. :D

[imperialismispasse]

48. You know what's interesting to me?

That he responded to this thread first. If he came here to DU to disrupt you'd think he would join in on a thread bashing Bush or something. But no he came onto this thread. That makes me think, this is the kind of issue that conservatives know is making regular (nonpolitical) people sit up and say "I think there is something wrong with this country". These economic issues will be the thing that turns the tide I think. So they have to keep saying "These aren't real problems" and hoping people will believe them.

[Zenlitened]

49. That's an interesting point. They'll attack on the issues where...

... they know they're the most vulnerable.

Typical behavior for republi-bots: projecting their guilt, their fears, and their own misdeeds onto everyone around them.

[Catrina]

55. I can assure you it is NOT

a non-issue. You must be fairly affluent. Even with the flatrate plan, the poor will not be able to absorb the increase. I live in the NE and have talked to distributors. They are not being paid by many customers, even last year.

But, Hugo Chavez has offered cheap oil to America's poor. Let's hope our government doesn't prevent him from executing this act of charity, since many in this country, once they are okay, could care less about the poor.

Every year, I hear of an elderly or sick person dying due to lack of heat, and I can assure you also, that energy companies will shut off electricity if bills are not paid.

This will kill me, I know. Last year we never raised the thermostat above 60 and it was still expensive. I am dreading this coming winter.

[etherealtruth]

58. Flat rate makes it a non issue?

With Flat rate (not a true "flat rate") billing one's total yearly energy use is estimated and the cost is then evenly divided over 12 months ... the consumer still pays the total amount in this scenario, it is simply spread over 12 months ---- for those living in poverty "budgeting' is not the issue, total cost is.

Also

Ones costs are estimated ... actual readings will be taken and (especially troublesome in unusually cold seasons) total actual usage will be reconciled with billed usage and the consumer will be billed for the difference.

These type of billing plans are good for consumers concerned about budgeting for their heating bills ... it does NOTHING to help consumers without the resources to pay for escalating fuel costs or very cold heating seasons

[yewberry]

60. This practice was pretty much discontinued in New England

as of last year.

It used to be pretty common, but few were doing it as of this past winter.

[donsu]

2. I was surprised that last winter didn't break people's finances and

I keep wondering too, how they will pay more to get to and from work and more to heat their spaces.

are there emergency money pools for people without heat? or there used to be. how big are these resources?

[imperialismispasse]

9. There are but I think they are limited.

Sometimes its only for families with kids. And what happens when twice as many (pulling a number out of the air) families apply for aid? They'll have to start denying eventually.

[whatever4]

4. I think you're right

That it's going to be a problem. People who can't pay, well, there'll just be TOO many of them for the energy companies to cut any breaks, is how I see it. Energy companies will cry about their lost revenues. Guess who'll receive assistance first?

Sad when our only hope for salvation is a warm winter brought about by global warming, isn't it?

Fine first post! :)

[imperialismispasse]

10. Thanks.

It is so messed up that a warmer winter because the environment is screwed would actually be better for a lot of people. In Philadelphia though it would have to get a LOT warmer before people would stop needing heat. :)

[whatever4]

16. Thanks to BushCo, we don't worry about doing well anymore

The shrub has us believing we'll be doing good just to survive. To believe that is all we have the right to expect.

That's what this thread makes me think. We used to have goals, enthusiasm, hope for the future. Now...we're going to be happy if people don't starve or freeze, or get miss needed health care...in large enough numbers. The suffering is preordained, for some. Just a question of how many.

No frills in THIS country.

[imperialismispasse]

22. That is so true.

And for a country that has all the natural resources we could ever need that's pretty sad. We have enough that everyone could live more than comfortably. Instead its a mansion or a box. I hate it.

[Imagevision]

5. There may be more reports of families found dead?

How many days can one survive in the cold?

[imperialismispasse]

7. A long time if youre a healthy adult probably.

But in the news reports I've seen it's almost always little kids and the elderly. Usually someone's left them alone. Especially with the old people it's usually that nobody checked on them for weeks.

[Conservativesux]

52. I guess Bush would approve of putting old people to death....

becuase thats whats going to happen when they freeze to death.

Family values again !!!

[imperialismispasse]

54. They should pull themselves up by their bootstraps and get to work

It's hard work being president you know. At least that's what I hear.

[MissB]

12. Last year, we were able to afford to replace an aging heating system

We spent nearly $5k to get it replaced.

The winter before that was our first winter in this house. It is an older home and there are plenty of single pane windows and very little insulation in the walls. We're updating a little each year as we can.

With the old heating system (using heating oil), we spent nearly $1200 in 60 days. And that was keeping the heat at a steady 68 degrees. It *was* a horribly inefficient heating system, but the cost of heating fuel was just barely more than a dollar a gallon back then.

Diesel fuel and heating fuel are approximately the same cost per gallon, right? I can do the math.

Given the same heating system and the current price, we'd have to keep the heat down to about 60 degrees. And we're at the very-comfy-middle-class part of life.

A whole lot of people are going to be uncomfortable this winter. A whole lot.

[imperialismispasse]

14. When the middle class is uncomfortable

that usually means the poor people are struggling just to live. Thanks for your post-it's good to have numbers to go with the theory.

[Conservativesux]

42. Here in CA some HVAC companies are pricing new units at under

1000 dollars for a 2400 dollar unit for a limited time.

Cant say if this would do anyone any good as you still need juice or gas to run it.

[catmandu57]

20. Funds for heating aid have been cut

along with many social programs that aid the poor, the haves and havemores need that money. What they do with it I'm not sure, it sure isn't going to help anyone.
Back to the subject this winter is going to be a nightmare for many people, you can survive the cold much easier than the heat, but there is no reason whatsoever for people to be cold, or hungry, or living in poverty.
Not when we've spent nearly 200 billion in Iraq to prove that the chimp* has a bigger one than poppy.
We're rolling into a perfect storm, a cold dark winter, fuel costs so high it may not pay people to even go to work, the choice between food, gas, heat, medical, the kids, name one pick your poison whichever way you go you lose.
In the meantime rodney richpiggie turns the thermostat up and wonders why those people don't shut the fuck up.

[imperialismispasse]

27. That is all true.

Thanks. I am thinking of elderly people who are already living on a fixed income and have to choose between food and prescriptions-how will they absorb increased heating costs too?

[Conservativesux]

53. Its time for a change.......NOW !!!

[Cleita]

21. I know I won't. My propane bill tripled in the last year and

I stopped using heat in mid-winter. I won't be able to use heat this winter either because I'm sure the propane will be even higher. I'm fortunate that I live in California on the coast and it seldom reaches below 30F degrees here in the winter. I just bundle under a lot of blankets and I'm okay.

[imperialismispasse]

31. Wow I'm sorry.

I am lucky to not be in that situation but I really sympathize with those who are. I don't understand how people can still think everything is okay in this country when some people can't afford life basics like heat.

[Cleita]

32. Don't feel sorry for me, feel sorry for those in really cold climates.

These are the people the compassionate conservatives should be thinking of.

[imperialismispasse]

34. yeah like people down the street from me.

Maybe I'll try to find a way to help them with their bill this winter. Maybe its the communities that will end up saving people since the government sure doesn't care.

[Conservativesux]

38. I wonder if you could write this off on your taxes as a charitable.....

contribution?

That way Uncle sam still pays for it, as long as you dont use it yourself.

[imperialismispasse]

41. Huh that's a good idea. It might have be designated beforehand?

I don't know I'll look into it. Thanks for the idea.

[Sgent]

56. You can't write it off personally

But if you give it to a church or other non-profit, and they provide the money (after proof of income) then you can deduct it.

[imperialismispasse]

57. Great information thanks.

[lapislzi]

29. I have 2 friends, neither of whom can afford a tank of oil

My one friend toughed out the summer showering at my house, boiling water, etc...she hopes to have enough to buy 1 tank this winter. (She is self-employed). I help her out when I can.

I've arranged to buy a tank of oil for my other friend whose husband's been unemployed for 18 months. Hubby's taken odd jobs just to bring money in (she also works full time). They are considering selling their home and moving into a trailer.

Of course there's no bankruptcy for these poor folks who were carrying some credit debt before their hard times hit.

[imperialismispasse]

30. God that is so sad.

I hope both of their situation improves soon.

[lapislzi]

35. We're working on it...

I think it will be years before bush's legacy of misery is fully known. These friends could easily be divorced in a year or 2. Hard times really take their toll on even the strongest relationship.

Now, tell me how THAT is "pro-family?"

I only know that it's by sheer luck that I'm not in the same boat too. It could happen to any of us.

[Conservativesux]

37. Too bad John Kennedy Jr, isnt here anymore. As I recall he administered

a program to get cheap heating oil to those who needed it.

[yewberry]

63. Joe Kennedy still does, I think.

He's the chair of Citizen's Energy in MA, which provides heating oil for people in need.

[Conservativesux]

68. I am very glad to hear that. Thanks !

[anarch]

36. probably not.

I'm not even all that poor, in relative terms, and I have gone through this in the past, just on account of bad luck and the general state of the economy...well, my personal financial situation mostly, inasmuch as I had several jobs, just none of them paid for shit.

As far as I was able to find out, there wasn't any assistance program that applied to me, so I was just S.O.L. I remember sleeping with all my clothes on, including hat and gloves, and under all the blankets I could find. Fun!

Yeah, unless the price of fuel drops considerably, I'd say we're going to see a few more poor people freeze to death this year...but it's an awesome year for the oil companies! Just look at them there profit margins! Wooo-hoo, the economy's lookin' up!

[imperialismispasse]

40. I'm shocked that people really believe that

Oh I know you were being sarcastic but there are people who really believe the economy is turned around because the news says so-even though in the same breath they complain about gas prices and that they can't pay their credit card bills. When will people wake up???

[Strelnikov_]

50. Will Rich People Be Able To Have Heat This Winter?

I have seen much passing comment regarding possible shortages of distillates (heating oil) this winter.

Oh, yea, economic Darwinism. Or, for those that believe in intelligent design, the price will go sky-high and price out those poor people that Christ obviously did not bless.

[imperialismispasse]

51. I bet somehow the rich will find a way.

Even if there's "no oil available" according to the news I bet rich people will find some somewhere. Its the same as how rich people have always been able to have safe abortions even when they were illegal.

[spinbaby]

59. We're going to see a lot of deaths

Not just from freezing but also from kerosene heaters and other space heaters. Will * care? Not bloody likely.

[imperialismispasse]

61. He doesn't care about the soldiers dying while he's vacationing.

Why would he care about this?

Off topic, can I get a cookie?

[Freddie Stubbs]

62. Global warming will take care of this problem

;)

[imperialismispasse]

64. Ha ha! As I said above it will take a while for Philly to get that warm.

It's pretty cold here. ;)

[Steve L]

67. Up 50%

We have our heating costs avereaged over the year and pay the same amount every month. We were just notified that our bill has went up 50% due to anticipated higher oil prices. Were far from poor and this will still have an effect, as the gas prices have had.