American Legion and DailyKOS Agree – “`Like Minded”

[autorank]

WORST OF THE WORST

American Legion “The American Legion, which has 2.7 million members, has declared war on antiwar protestors, and the media could be next. Speaking at its national convention in Honolulu, the group's national commander called for an end to all “public protests” and “media events” against the war.

"The American Legion will stand against anyone and any group that would demoralize our troops, or worse, endanger their lives by encouraging terrorists to continue their cowardly attacks against freedom-loving peoples," Thomas Cadmus, national commander, told delegates at the group's national convention in Honolulu.

Now, when I see those words, I think Right Wing “TOTALITARIAN” and worse.

But look down below. The similarity between the two statements is the basis for my post and serious question.

No Conspiracies. No Fraudsters <meaning "electioin fraud">
Armando’s Diary DailyKOS

Let me be the first asshole to tell you that bullshit fraud theories and bullshit conspiracy theories are not welcome.
Markos has said it. He means it.

I don't want to hear baseless theories on fraud and other nonsense. I think, no, I know markos feels the same way.

You want to waste your time, do it somewhere else.

My tip jar will be the fraudster's chance to troll rate me. Cuz once you start diarying your cock and bull fraud theories, markos will show you the door. With my applause in the background.

When I read these words I think Left Wing TOTALARIANISM and worse.

Both statements are equivalent in INTOLLERANCE and IGNORANCE.

Which one does more harm:

I think DailyKOS because:

a) they think that ranting about conspiracy theories makes them NOT SO and
b) by living in the thuggish ignorance of Republican theft (across the board), their formula is one that leaves us all screwed because we’ll never get a fair election. Therefore, we’ll never get any change. It’s an easy switch to say the Legion is worse.

But here’s the big question:

Who died and appointed these people God?

[The Backlash Cometh]

1. The truth is that Republicans will never admit they were wrong.

They would rather see their "fellowman" die, than to ever admit to us that they were wrong to attack Iraq. It doesn't matter that the rest of the world already knows we made a mistake and that they will gradually see Republicans as men with very weak character because they can't fess up to that mistake.

It's just a sad thing to witness. They would rather see their neighbor's kid get killed, than to take a chance of being considered flip-floppers.

[autorank]

2. Consistency exacts a very high price...

This just blew me away...they're telling us, shut up, you can't protest because people are fighting for your right to protest so stop it.

Sad logic!

[nashville_brook]

83. that's a LIE -- on KOS, you're fighting for his right to be a talking head

protest = markos' career

[smoogatz]

3. I think your comparison is a remarkable leap of logic.

Kos is perfectly within his rights if he wants to restrict certain kinds of posts on his privately owned and operated website. If you don't like that policy, don't go there. The American Legion has just given the wingnuts in its membership carte blanche to beat up, harass and terrorize those who publicly oppose the war--just like they did during Vietnam. You see a similarity there? I sure don't.

[autorank]

4. I don't go there. If this is the new media, is this the new censorship?

And I think that there are some people around who say, we bought and paid for this government, now just shut up and go away. It's no different in logical structure than right wingers making the argument I just made.

Remember: "America, love it or leave it!"

I do and it was simply awful.

The left is supposed to stand for democracy and honest examination of the real world. I'm weary of people who make the same mistake over and over -- accepting stolen elections, government, judiciary, etc. -- and expect different results.

[smoogatz]

8. Kos et al have obviously made a decision not to accept as a given

that the election was stolen. Even the Conyers report didn't say there was rampant, systemic fraud--lots of irregularities, but not systemic fraud. I happen to think that someone--Blackwell himself maybe--monkeyed with the tabulators as the vote was coming in. I also think that a percentage of the touch-screen machines were programmed to flip votes in a number of different ways. But I can't back that up with hard facts--all I have to go on are the exit polls, some weird discrepancies in the vote count, a lot of reports of isolated incidents of vote flipping, and a lot of highly suspicious shenanigans on the part of the Republican machine in Ohio. The smoking gun--in the form of witnesses, say--still hasn't emerged. So I think that's what Kos is responding to--the endless speculation and recycling of speculation that never quite amounts to cold, hard proof.

[bpilgrim]

12. these issues need to be spread far and wide

i'm glad we can still discuss them here, since there is plenty of evidence of massive fraud and the only way to stop it is raise awareness.

and this issue is bipartisan, every american wants their vote to count.

just say NO to BBV :bounce:

peace

[smoogatz]

13. I agree.

I thought Mark Crispin Miller's recent piece in Harper's on vote fraud was exceptionally good. The media conspiracy of silence has been stunning, to say the least. But I don't think we should vilify Kos for wanting to keep his site as mainstream/left as possible. He does very good work otherwise.

[bpilgrim]

23. phew

and i wish Kos all the best but when he try's to attack and suppress folks raising this VITAL issue he deserves attention.

:hi:

peace

[autorank]

18. smoogatz, We agree that Conyers is an excellent source...but a

modification and expansion of your points. He did say that the systematic suppression of the black vote, in particular, cost Kerry several hundred thousand votes:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0507/S00237.htm

btw, this is just "pre election". Take a look at the figures "Ohio officials dieenfranchised HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Ohio citizens, predominantly Minority and Democratic voters"

This is the only investigation of Ohio right after the election, the only onsite Federal presence looking into what people all over Ohio saw. Please take a look.

PRE ELECTION

I …the following actions by Mr. Blackwell (Ohio Republican Secretary of State), the Republican Party, and elections officials disenfranchised HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Ohio citizens, predominantly Minority and Democratic voters.

A. …misallocation of voting machines led to unprecedented long lines that disenfranchised scores, if not hundreds of thousands, of predominantly Minority and Democratic Voters.

B. Mr. Blackwell’s decision to restrict provisional ballots resulted in the disenfranchisement of tens, if not hundreds of thousands of voters, predominantly Minority and Democratic voters.

C. Mr. Blackwell’s widely reviled decision to reject voter registration applications…may have resulted in thousands of new voters not being registered in timer for the 2004 election.

D. “caging: tactics” (voter intimidation through threatening letters, etc.) targeted 35,000 predominantly minority voters for intimidation, had a negative impact on voter turnout.

E. The Ohio Republican Party’s decision to utilize thousands of partisan challengers contradicted concentrated in minority and Democratic areas probably disenfranchised tens of thousands of legal voters…

F. Mr. Blackwell’s decision to prevent voters who requested absentee ballots, but did not receive them on a timely basis, from being able to receive provisional ballotsprobably disenfranchised thousands, if not tens of thousands of voters, particularly seniors.

[smoogatz]

21. I'm pretty well acquainted with the Conyers findings.

They're damning in their conclusions about disenfranchisment. For me (and Conyers, too, I think) that's more than enough to throw Blackwell and the lot of them in jail for a long, long time. But what Conyers doesn't say is that votes actually cast on voting machines were intentionally, systematically mistabulated on a massive scale. That's what I generally think of when I refer to systemic vote fraud in Ohio. Diebold delivering the electoral votes. Maybe the ppeople of Ohio will finally wake up and vote these scoundrels out of office; if that happens, I have a feeling there will be numerous grand juries examining Ohio's electoral irregularities.

[autorank]

22. Good point on Conyers then but now, it's an entirely different story.

He and his staff were there very, very early. I admire him for his courage. The M.O. for Ohio elections officials is yelling and shoving, that's what they do when you want to witness vote counting, ask questions, register voters. It happened all over the place. Given that and the assurance that * would be in power, to go there carried certain real risks to career, life and limb. The man's in his 70's at least and he's got the heart of a Trojan warrior.

He was bitterly disappointed in the DNC Report on Ohio, felt DNC let everyone down. I, for one, strongly believe that this is a race issue as much as a general voting issue (look at the disgrace of 1-2% "spoiled" ballots every presidential election in minority districts). In any event, Conyers is on the case now and will not relent.

If you add up the estimates, it's a Kerry win.

I strongly believe in monitoring elections. Pres Carter said that if his group that goes around the world and does this came to America in 2004, they would immediately find our system unacceptable and prone to fraud. It was. The exit polls used around the world, e.g., Ukraine, etc., by a variety of international organizations and endorsed by the US Government (as recently as the Ukraine) are here too. They're poo poohed by professional "know it alls" who have an interest in the game. Just looking at them as survey research instruments with a paper trail (the only complete paper train on election day 2004), you find that there's no way to reconcile the votes cast with the polls. The polls have the trail, were not counted by Republicans, yet here (but not the Ukraine, Venezuela, etc.) they're dismissed. Sad story.

Keep an open mind on this one. There is more to come.

Did you know that the networks, who commissioned the exit polls, refuse to release the data for broad scrutiny? Why?

Check this out if you feel like it. My conclusions were based on an inductive process starting from about where you are now in Feb/Mar of this year.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0507/S00238.htm

[Febble]

131. You do know, don't you

that Armando front-paged Georgia10's magnificent "Informed Citizen's Guide to the 2004 Election" on the case for fraud in Ohio? On Daily Kos?

Fifty-one devastating pages of evidence, still available here:

http://www.ajschuler.com/html/armando_s_challenge.html

It's brilliant, and entitled, in fact, "Armando's Challenge"

She rose to it.

[autorank]

138. Yeah, and he slammed every thing else. We don't need tokenism,

especially from KOS. Who died and made him god! I don't care if he lets one very competent poster post once. I read Armando's post. It was clear and it represents the worst type of bully boy thugish totatalarian bull shit. No scraps from the KOS table for me.

[dogday]

88. Equating the left to helping terrorist makes

the left just as guilty as the Terrorist. what does that mean? Are we terrorist to them? And if classified as such, what could our own country do to us as terrorist?

[autorank]

139. We're could be screwed but they're a minority. A lot of their members

at the convention wore "bull shit" protectors on their ears when he spoke. This is unparalleled protest for an American Legion Convention. The nasty release I quoted came out of their head quarters after the convention and after the pictures of those great guys with the BS protectors hit the streets.

They're on the run, they are desperate, and their old tricks don't work.

They've been defeated by a simple lady standing in a ditch demanding that the president answer her one question: "Why did you kill my son?"

You can run but you can't hide from that one. We're OK now. The 60's was much worse, particularly if you were a black activist. They were targeted (remember J Edgar Hoover had a plan to force M.L.King to commit suicide...that's crazy stuff).

This time it's different and we're way out in front with public opinion.

Keep the faith.

[Land Shark]

5. More often than not the claim of "no basis" has no basis itself...

the charge is simply thrown out that there's no basis to support the "theory", yet the dKOS author (for example) is not interested in finding out what that is.

it's a form of triangulation. Establish one's "credentials" of a sort by bashing some straw man.

[autorank]

6. "The New Media:" "Meet the new boss, just like the old boss..."

Well no one is fooled by the tyranical dictates of the Legion and no one can miss the parallels in the blogsphere.

It's my ball, if you don't play by my rules, you can't play at all.

The same old, same old.

[mondo joe]

62. Significant diifference: Start your own. Kos doesn't own the Internet.

Kos started with nothing more than you or anyone here.

An individual can't start their own news channel or newspaper.

Start your own blog. Post your evidence. Win the hearts and minds.

Instead of trying to control Kos, control yourself.

[Land Shark]

99. OK Mondo Joe, no if you don't like the MSM, start your own!

if you don't like nuclear power generation, start your own! If you don't like the way chemical manufacturing corporations are polluting your neighborhood, start your own chemical plant!

We DO have claims, even upon Kos, to some civility in debate, and even before we start our own blogs.

competition (by the way) WHETHER it be evolutionary in nature or economic in nature, does not lead to the victory by the most evolved. Witness the shark (for I am LAND SHARK). Been around for millions of years chomping down at least a few more subtle and advanced species along the way, I would venture to say. We'd all have apple computers if competition always picked the best computer technology. most say that's true even after consideration of price, but apple made perceived mistakes in marketing that have nothing to do with product quality.

ultimately, to deny that Kos would need to be responsive to a claim like autorank's is to deny that there is any fundamental social or political connection between us as "political animals" so to speak. And that is ultimately going to deny most of progressive thought. Why care for the displaced worker if there's really no connection or responsibilty between us? those displaced workers can start their own textile mill!!

[mondo joe]

109. As I've pointed out already, you CAN do what Kos has done, though

you CAN'T recreate the mainstream media.

Even if you could buy your own news channel you still can't buy another MSM.

But Kos, like you or like me, is just a person. He started a weblog. So can you - instead of demanding that he run HIS log the way YOU want him to.


Is that hard to understand?

[nashville_brook]

72. we saw this 40-some years ago during the last US pol upheaval --

the left bleeds support when it takes the same hegemonic, sexist, exclusionary behavior as the right. lefties don't play that. we pick up out research and our people and go elsewhere. we can't keep banging on the door, begging to be let in.

those on the left who call the people working the election fraud angle CONSPIRACY THEORISTS, or TINFOILHATTERS ought to be ashamed. that's not enlightened behavior, if you're so smart, then shuffle over to the ELECTION THREADS AND READ the material.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=203

we have FACTIONS. we have people not opening their eyes to the grim reality of STOLEN ELECTIONS. the difference SHOULD be that we take the time to be inclusive. that we examine extrordinary claims with extrodinary vigilence.

this name-calling, censorship and exclusionary tactics SHOULD have no place here. go back and look at how many people signed up after November 2004. you think they signed up to learn about FRAMES? no! they signed up b/c they KNOW they were f*cked once again.

[bleever]

24. As a wise man has said, there is NO BASIS to have confidence

in our elections. That is a clear and provable proposition.

The thesis that there is "no basis" to fraud in the 2004 election is just plain false. Anyone who says that is basically extrapolating from "you can't absolutely prove fraud" (which is one thing) to "there is no reason to believe fraud was possible" (which is a completely different thing).

Sloppy thinking. I have no confidence in it. In fact, I find it suspicious in the extreme.

[autorank]

26. Right bleever: President Carter on US Elections--great stuff

Steal This Vote: Dirty Elections and the Rotten History of Democracy in America (Paperback) by Andrew Gumbel

“A FEW DAYS before the November 2004 election, Jimmy Carter was asked what would happen if, instead of flying to Zambia or Venezuela or East Timor, his widely respected international election monitoring team was invited to turn it’s attention to the United States. His answer was stunningly blunt. Not only would the voting system be regarded as a failure, he said, but the short comings were so egregious the Carter Center would never agree to monitor an election there in the first place. “We wouldn’t think of it,” the former president told a radio interviewed. “The American system wouldn’t measure up to any sort of international standard for several reasons.” Page 1.


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1560256761/002-0458274-1128837?v=glance

[reprehensor]

7. Hmm.

Time to set up an account there, I guess.

No, not the Legion, KOS!

It'll be like Whack-a-Mole!

Election fraud is bullshit?

Pull your head out of your ass, Armando.

[autorank]

10. Maybe I should have x-posted to the Legion. We'll lose everything

if Democrats don't face reality...the Republicans will stop at nothing to retain power:

Two extremely Republican corporations will count 80% of the votes in 2006. Wonder how that will turn out...:sarcasm: but don't ever, ever, not in my presence acuse those extremely right wing Republican companies of stealing electoins. What? Are you out of your mind!:puke:

[bpilgrim]

9. well the DailyKOS link is gone

so probably just a heat of the moment rant or sometin :shrug:

peace

[autorank]

15. I wish that were true. I used to like the place.

About a month ago, I was online there and the same "diarist', Armando was saying that every once in a while, DKOS had to perform, his words "mental hygiene", to rid the service of the fools arguing that there was a case for election fraud. I was blown away. This is a very ugly form of rhetoric, "mental hygiene" to get rid of people who "don't think the right way." Lord, I hope these people never get power...but, hey, they can't since they're suckers for the extremist Republican firms who count 80% of the vote.

[tommcintyre]

79. HERE'S A WORKING LINK: ( 362 comments)

http://dailykos.com/story/2005/8/3/03619/14280

I've only read part way down the page, but it seems "armando" is getting a pretty good ass-whupping. ;)

Good Luck Herding the Cats. (3.00 / 3)

Better luck in finding any steel to put behind your empty words.

by Lush on Tue Aug 2nd, 2005 at 23:03:55 PDT
< Parent >

Banning? (none / 0)

that doesn't require steel.

You think too much of yourself if you believe it will give me a moments thought to recommend you be banned.

The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

by Armando on Tue Aug 2nd, 2005 at 23:13:41 PDT
< Parent >

Not rushing to the other guy's defense (none / 0)

But take a GOOD LOOK at your own post. And others.

A real good look.

by Assamite on Tue Aug 2nd, 2005 at 23:16:44 PDT
< Parent >

I know what I am doing (none / 0)

Do you?

The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

by Armando on Tue Aug 2nd, 2005 at 23:26:39 PDT
< Parent >

He seems to have his own "pet SCOTUS" "conspiracy"; but that one must be "OK" to talk about. ;)

Another series:

I Remember Someone Commenting on 2004 Diaries. (4.00 / 2)

But nothing nearly as expansive and for-all-time as Armando described.

Armando said it
I believe it
That settles it ;-)

If that's a sly Animal Farm reference, nice one. If not... perhaps a quick read? Only takes an hour or so...

by Lush on Tue Aug 2nd, 2005 at 23:18:49 PDT
< Parent >

Sly? (none / 0)

Sheesh as obvious as a sledgehammer.

You know you are not nearly as clever as you think you are right? Your verbal gambits are not complex, or even funny.

Indeed, you bore me.

But before I go, will you be doing a fraud diary?

The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

by Armando on Tue Aug 2nd, 2005 at 23:25:34 PDT
< Parent >

Maybe not (4.00 / 2)

But I STILL can't help but see "Snowball" all over the place.

Just me.

by Assamite on Tue Aug 2nd, 2005 at 23:30:04 PDT
< Parent >

I'm Getting the "Squealer" Vibe Myself. (none / 0)

by Lush on Tue Aug 2nd, 2005 at 23:33:12 PDT
< Parent >

Compensating for.... (none / 0)

... something, are we?

"When the Nationals took over the NL East lead in early June, Frank Robinson should have declared: MISSION ACCOMPLISHED"

by crazymoloch on Tue Aug 2nd, 2005 at 23:32:44 PDT
< Parent >

Imagine that (none / 0)

Drunk on power in a blog.

Sheesh

by aitoaster on Tue Aug 2nd, 2005 at 23:55:18 PDT
Parent

If this wasn't such a serious issue, I'd be laffing my ass off! Well... OK... I actually am - but it's still a very serious issue.

[Just Me]

11. I think the intentionally planned oppression of protesters is worse.

I find the "rules" demanded by KOs that, theories are backed by evidence, are reasonable.

It's fun and challenging to "imagine" what REALLY HAPPENED. Those imaginations can evolve into theories proven by facts. However, to pose unproven imaginations as fact is unacceptable.

That's my opinion.

[autorank]

14. Can you tell me one reasonable thing about this Armando guy's post?

Get a copy of Steal this Vote by Andrew Gumbel, read it, and tell me there is not something terribly rotten with our election system, for decades. Theres proof.

And btw, have you heard, the news media commissioned recount of Florida showed Gore would have won handily with a recount--strange isn't it. That's evidence. Read up on Ohio and the rest of '80 in Elections Results & Discussion or any other forum.

We don't have to prove the election was stolen to believe it was AND TO DEMAND AN INVESTIGATION.

The material avaiable right now raises serious questions. You can't provide the answer (proof) before you examine the question and there is more than enough evidence to examine the question.

Look here http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0507/S00238.htm
or here
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0307/S00147.htm
or here
http://www.2004electiontheft.com/
or here
http://www.linkcrusader.com/vote_machines.htm
or here
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0813-29.htm
or here

I might agree with you by the way you phrase it, the "intentionally planned" suppression of protestors...as opposed to argument from total ignorance, in a rude way! We'll see

[Just Me]

30. I stand by my opinion that, intentional oppression of opposition is worse.

:shrug:

I'm not saying that evidence of "stealing the vote" should be blown-off. OF COURSE, all evidence of fraud relating to American's vote should be taken seriously.

However, at this point in time, my opinion is that the suppression of humanitarian and social and political opposition is actually worse than the corruption attempted in voting. Of course, I also know that 26 states have enacted a "paper trail" protection.

:shrug:

It's just MY opinion. Take it or leave it,...at your will. :hug:

[autorank]

35. It's a good opinion and doesn't denigrate the alternative...

:hi:

[zoeb]

16. Wonder how many of the 2.7 million members agree

with Cadmus? I disagree with the guy. I don't think protesting Bush's policies demoralizes our troops, or endangers their lives by encouraging terrorists. Nothing has embolden terrorists more than this war. Nothing has harmed our troops more than the failed preparation and the lack of equipment than this war.

I'm a veteran and I don't pay dues to this organization nor would I after this announcement. Kinda like Kos, support it or move on.

[autorank]

19. Hackett is the best argument that it's not demoralizing, IMHO

He fought, came back, ran for congress, lost, and then went to Marine Reserve duty near DC. He was greeted by his buddies, not all of whom agreed with him, but all of whom treated him well by all reports. They respect each other enough, obviously, to have a difference.

Amazing stuff from the Legion.

[fujiyama]

46. I have to wonder

if the 4000 that signed the resolution even know why they fought for this nation. It was a slap in the face of the millions that have served but dare to make a public dissent. Basically the legion is saying that anytime someone criticizes the reasons for a war or the handling of it, they are emboldening the enemy. I think they should tell that to Hacket, Kerry, Cleland, Clark, even Hagel (among others).

Those who went with that resolution are nothing but fascists. Their hypocrisy is now evident since they themselves protested during the Kosovo conflict (a conflict in which no Americans died).

[BikeWriter]

81. I agree with your post except I am a member, a vocal one!

I feel the liberal veterans must be represented in our veterans organizations!

[B Calm]

146. I'm a member of the American Legion. I hate the fact that the

National Commander is a right-wing political hack! I seriously been thinking about dropping out of the American Legion until they get their priorities in order and quit being partisan to a political party of CHICKEN HAWKS!

[autorank]

148. How about those guys with the "bull shit protectors" on their ears.

That was just amazing. The president speaking to the Legion, as long as I've followed politics (long time) was always a major set piece, very dignified with subtle signals at most (as I see it and I've never been on the floor). These ear things by some attendees struck me because the statement was so strong and because they had to print them up before hand!

I hope the Legion lives up to your standards. That would be great!

[MisterP]

17. that really turned me off to the site

if this was an attempt to "broaden the base," I think it backfired

[autorank]

20. I used to love their take on the news (their meaning some diarists)

This and the "mental hygiene" campaign, another Armando special, to get rid of people who are so sloppy of thought as to think something was very wrong make it a place I simply won't visit. I saw this linked somewhere and, since it was a follow along to the mental hygiene slander, I decided to give my 2 cents. But wait, I can't go back! My mentality of reality based suspicion of Republican crimes disqualifies me. :evilfrown:

[Neecy]

25. They're not only purging the conspiracy theorists...

But they're alienating a lot of peace activists over there with the rude and arrogant entry Kos made a couple of days ago.

"I'm not anti-war. As I've said before, I'm a military hawk. I supported the Afghanistan War and I supported the Bosna /sic/ and Kosovo interventions. I'm not one of these touchy-feely hippy types that thinks war is inherently bad. I laugh at people who think they can 'visualize peace'".

They're still batting that one around.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/8/23/154834/735

[autorank]

27. Ugh...hadn't seen that one. Bloviating 101, Power Tripping

Now that's really offensive! What a program (a) let the Republicans steal elections from now on and (b) go around and kill and maim people. What are these guys trying to prove? and who are they trying to prove it to? Now that's really offensive!

[Neecy]

31. a lot of people *were* offended

It was a ridiculous entry, esp. since Kos isn't old enough to actually have experienced a "touchy-feely hippy".

I suppose he thinks the anti-war movement is getting broad enough (read: safe enough) for him to want to ditch the ones who were involved with it from the beginning of this fiasco. He really wants to be viewed as "respectable", "serious", as an "adult". Who he offends is really secondary to him and his ego. I think he's a total ass.

[autorank]

33. You're too generous to him (((LOL)))

And we know about those news types that want to be "respectable" "serious" and "adult." Aren't they the ones who sold us down the river on Iraq, etc. etc. ad nauseum
:hi:

[acmejack]

64. Markos has let his "celebrity" go to his head.

A legend in his own mind. The little punk has no clue what he is talking about when it comes to warfare. Just one vet's opinion.

[autorank]

142. Great point. See post 141. You are a prophet!

[SidDithers]

37. How can it be Bloviating or Power Tripping...

when it's his site? It's a private web site, and he can impose whatever rules he wants - just like Skinner et al do here.

If you don't like the rules at dailykos, spend your time at a site more to your liking - like DU :)

Sid

[autorank]

41. I DU but I don't want to hear Democrat tied to Tyranny and Thugishness

He put himself out there, for all to see. If he doesn't want feedback, critiques, etc. then he should have all the nasty crap they spout lately in a private forum...it could be like Synanon, they could scream at each other and so forth.

I'm a Democrat, among other reasons, because I believe in inclusiveness and tolerance for our party members and all Americans. This post is not isolated, it's not reflective of my party, and yet they say they're gung ho Democrats. It boils down to "I'm gonna kick your ass cause the boss said so and the boss is my friend, yeah, and go away if you don't think right." What a political dialog? What an exemplar of the "new media."

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss...that's how I see it.

(btw, I'm here a lot by choice, this is not a drive by "visitor" opinion)

[mondo joe]

87. You're welcome to your erroneous criticism.

The idea that a person governing content on HIS web site alone is WORSE than a group seeking to stifle political dissent ANYWHERE is ridiculous.

[autorank]

143. You're welcome to see post 141. What a freak show!

:puke:

[jonnyblitz]

29. wow...you are right...that was lame as hell...i guess I don't

know much about KOS...

[bleever]

32. Holy Smokes. If you're going to dis "hippie types", at least spell

"hippie" right, Kos.

And if this is a Berkeley resident's attempt to distance himself from Berkeley, I say: move.

Signed,

Berkeley business license holder.

:hi:

[Neecy]

34. he did move, I believe

I think those peace-visualizing "hippy-types" contributed enough to his site that he moved up to digs in San Francisco.

[bleever]

36. LOL! No "hippy types" in SF. And why so much haight? I mean,

hate.

I fear that the blind spot of Gen X is their distain for what they consider "hippie" excesses (which certainly exist!), which result in a rejection of the advances in free speech, democracy, and freedom of thought that were the essentially good parts of the upheaval of the sixties and early seventies.

[Neecy]

38. good point (and good pun!)

In making his crude "touchy-feely hippy" comment, he demonstrated not only his rejection of anyone who doesn't look preppy and "acceptable" (however he defines that) but an appalling ignorance of some of the philosophical underpinnings of the era. He reminds me of young women who are enjoying all of the benefits of the feminist movement while squealing that - oh no! - they aren't feminists.

Whatever. After I read that post where he also talked lovingly about 1,000 pound bombs I'm going to avoid visiting again - I don't like the vibes (hippie enough?).

[bleever]

39. A little too much of that "un-hippier than thou" ethos that Gen X and

the punk movement used to define themselves.

Kinda like saying, "Luke Skywalker? He's such a square! I'm not so stuck on the 'anti-Vader' and 'Use the Force' bullshit."

:7

[bpilgrim]

45. fuck Kos

that little pencil neck geek don't know anything about war, obviously.

"I laugh at people who think they can 'visualize peace'".

:puke:

peace

[autorank]

53. Your site is so book marked!!!!!

http://media.GlobalFreePress.com

This is just amazing and I look at a lot of these things. Your stuff is great and you have the sublime SwampRat! Great, great resource!

On edit: make the sig line bigger, people need this resource.

[bpilgrim]

150. thanks autorank

always nice to get positive feedback :hi:

BTW: you can post images there, too
just ping me afterward so i can approve them =)

peace

[autorank]

152. Will do...You and "the Rat" ought to have a "high end" internet gallery!

It would be the "Studio 54" of online art!

[nashville_brook]

75. life is too short to spend it on KOS -- if you're into change instead of

KOS' big fat ego, then there's plenty of places to go, things to read and places to post. especially as we ramp up for 2006. there's no greater question than FAIR ELECTIONS.

[bleever]

28. While I have respect for Markos and what he's built, I know

(and correct me if I'm mistaken) he did explicitly dismiss discussions of vote fraud.

But how could any student of history do so? How could anyone acquainted with the tactics of Rove do so? How could anyone who witnessed the 2000 fiasco do so?

And ultimately, given the fact that this subject is the VERY LINCHPIN of politics in the U.S. of A., if there is even the slightest possibility that we are susceptible to it, how could anyone dismiss it outright?

It's like identity theft: if someone else has my SS number or my ATM card's PIN, isn't it mandatory to be extremely vigilant? Or, as Kos would have it, is the burden of proof on the victim to wait for actual documented damages before protecting oneself?

[understandinglife]

43. Precisely. The topic of this thread needs careful, extensive exposition.

Peace.

[bleever]

40. And, I suggest: ZERO TOLERANCE for "coincidence theorists".

As in: "it's a COINCIDENCE that all these battleground states deviated uniformly from the exit polls to *", or "it's merely COINCIDENCE that all the historically accurate indicators of presidential electoral victory swung unanimously towards *".

If we'd had a few million elections, maybe one would turn out this way by chance. But we haven't. It didn't.

And while I wouldn't ban coincidence-theorists from speaking their minds, I would certainly make them rigorously defend their point.

[txindy]

42. It's been my experience

That I have never learned a single thing when I'm the one doing the talking. Kos and others should have given everyone a chance to defend their positions. Who knows, they may have looked at the mountains of statistical data plus the testimony of many witnesses and decided that they really didn't know the true outcome of the election. Instead, they stuck their fingers in their ears and starting humming.

[bleever]

54. Exactly. Better to be a nameless listener than a famous talker.

At least if truth is your top priority.

:hi:

[Helga Scow Stern]

44. I agree. Daily Kos will do more harm by being closed-minded, especially

because the site purports to present the truth in an open-minded way, and acts as if it has beliefs and values similar to most progressives.

This behavior is kind of like David Corn in The Nation being so derisive about anyone who wanted to talk about the possibility of fraud in the 2004 "election." It made me lose respect for a magazine I once treasured and I cancelled my subscription.

I don't go to Kos much now since reading this arrogant ignorance from Markos and others.

I like a phrase that PATRICK of DU applied back when David Corn was being such a jerk: "proudly ineffectual." I took this to mean that someone like Corn or Markos can posture as if they are interested in the truth, but when that truth is too scary or makes them too uncomfortable or unseats them from the comfy position they have declared for themselves, that's where they draw the line.

Something really stinks when there is no interest in having a discussion about something that concerns many--they just want to shut it down, to bully it into hiding. There is something fundamentally wrong with this approach. I don't care how progressive they might be on other issues...such an arrogant display of ignorance signals internal corruption just as sure as a circling vulture signals that something has died.

[autorank]

49. Eloquent (and I've got a new epithet)

"proudly ineffectual" just wonderful, I'll use it!

KOS,
KORN,
Cowardly US Senators (except Barbara Boxer),
Cowardly US House of Representatives (except the 2000 and 2004 challengers),
Proudly Ineffectual DNC (thanks Joe Andrew, former DNC Chair for shilling for Diebold and opposing verified paper ballots),
Surrender Monkey's LIEberman and Rendel from FL 2000,
Loser of Easy to Win Elections Donna Brazile,
Mandarins who took 10% media-buy fees from our party while their Republican counterparts worked on a fixed fee basis,
and
Coincidence Theorists of all stripes

Your day of awakening will come. Your eyes will open and you will see. You will be troubled, contrite, and then seek your place at the table. But the table will be gone. You'll seek your check from the bursar but he will be busy with others (perhaps the poor and weak). You will scurry about "spinning" all the way...and find yourselves alone to face your own reflection in the mirror.

It will not be a pretty picture.

The Truth Is All we want, free and fair elections AND
no more stupid wars or threats to our civil liberties that
go unanswered by those charged with protecting the constitution.

I believe!!! It will all happen and we'll be free, perhaps for the first time. That's how important the reality-based view of politics and life is, free at last.

[nashville_brook]

76. imho -- i think KOS is more interested in CELEBRITY than TRUTH

if he wants to be a talking head, he has to play THEIR game.

and he's so damn young -- the stars have blinded him. he can't see past his ego. or his next appearance on AAR. we have people here at DU with way more SAVVY, EXPERIENCE and HONOR. people who spend more time on truth-gathering than self-promotion.

KOS is a PRODUCT. buyer beware.

[hiley]

122. exactly

:)

[tommcintyre]

47. IDEA: We should list all the election fraud "conspiracies" (theories)...

in a diary over at Kos; and ask Markos, Armando, and whoever to explain why each one is "beneath consideration". Then we will respond with our best arguments, data, etc. for each disputed theory.

If we can't reasonably back-up* any supposition, we won't talk about it anymore.
<*NOT prove, since that's the eventual purpose of a full-fledged investigative commission (with all their resources) - that our work will hopefully instigate.>

However, for all those possibilities that we CAN reasonably back-up, they should agree to allow discussion (diaries) on kos.

If there is a dispute as to whether we have "reasonably backed-up" any election fraud theory, it could be submitted to a "referee". The candidate for this position should have a reputation for openness, honesty, and in-depth knowledge in the subject-matter. Rep. John Conyers would be ideal for this position. (He posts Diaries on kos occasionally.) If he is not available, someone who has written extensively on the subject (such as Bob Fitrakis) would be ideal. Of course, a jury (several members) would be another option; as long as all participants had qualifications equivalent to those listed above.

[autorank]

50. Well now, that's a great idea. Let's put together our team...

and see if they want to have a dialog.

[mondo joe]

61. Oh yes - spend time arguing with allies instead of fighting the neocons.

Excellent use of time and energy.

After all, there is no greater threat than those who generally agree having some specific disagreements.

:eyes:

[tommcintyre]

67. Uh, I think you ought to read the opening post just a lil' more carefully

This is not about "having some specific disagreements".

"...once you start diarying your cock and bull fraud theories, markos will show you the door. With my applause in the background."

Does that REALLY sound like just having "disagreements" to you? C'mon, really! I don't have to spell it out more, do I?

[mondo joe]

73. Yes, it IS about having a specific disagreement about a specific issue.

Don't like Kos's site? Start your own.

Same goes for DU which also has rules about usage.

Kos can't stop you talking about this issue, nor is he trying to. You just can't use his site to do it.

[tommcintyre]

90. No "shades of gray", eh?

It's really THAT black and white for you?

Truly amazing - I guess there's nothing more to say. I'd no more try to discuss the finesse of this issue further with you, than I'd try to discuss evolution with a creationist. In both cases, it would be a waste of both parties' time and energy.

[mondo joe]

92. This is that black and white. It's his site. And he's not a corporate

media outlet.

Your suggestion to battle Kos on this issue seems ridiiculous and counterproductive to me.

[tommcintyre]

94. Again, you missed the whole point, it wasn't to "battle" him;

but to both give him what he wants (fact-based information - not baseless conspiracies); and yet the fraudsters still have a chance to educate his large audience on matters that will actually help get the neocons out of power (eliminate election fraud).

OF COURSE it's his blog, and he can do what ever he wants with it (just like if it's "your ball" you can insist on making the rules, or you won't let 'em use it.) But we progressives are known for being fair, reasonable, having an open mind and trying to "do the right thing", right?

[mondo joe]

110. Sure you did:

"We should list all the election fraud "conspiracies" (theories)...
in a diary over at Kos; and ask Markos, Armando, and whoever to explain why each one is "beneath consideration". Then we will respond with our best arguments, data, etc. for each disputed theory."

And you call that giving him "what he wants"?

Why not just start a vote fraud log and put your arguments there?

I don't think of Kos as uninformed or closed minded. I think he's heard the arguments and isn't interested in it on his site.

[Land Shark]

104. Mondo joe, please see my post #99 in this thread

I don't think you can rationally argue that 'start your own blog' is the solution to this particular type of problem WITHIN A PROGRESSIVE POLITICAL FRAMEWORK that is.

If we don't like the MSM, just start our own MSM? C'mon. Now kos aspires to be msm and is approaching it and hoping for it so he thinks he can establish more credentials by casting aspersions on those "beneath" him. This is both a violation of progressive inclusion principles, free debate principles of blogging, and a prior restraint on speech (against constitutional values though not a constitutional violation per se because kos is not the government). that is not a good position for a progressive blog to take. What happened to "I disagree but defend your right to take that position?"

[autorank]

117. Can you point me to armando's comments on "mental hygiene"

That's where he said that DKOS has to enforce "mental hygiene" every now and then to clear out the people who believe that it's well worth investigating election fraud.

That was profoundly offensive and bizarre.

I tried to find it and it's worth displaying here.

Thanks

[nashville_brook]

77. we would, but we're too busy filing lawsuits.

:)

i kid i kid -- go for it! great idea.

[evilqueen]

48. Let's see how the Bush administration stacks up...

"The American Legion will stand against anyone and any group that would demoralize our troops, or worse, endanger their lives by encouraging terrorists to continue their cowardly attacks against freedom-loving peoples," Thomas Cadmus, national commander, told delegates at the group's national convention in Honolulu.

Demoralize Our Troops : stop-loss, multiple tours in combat, lack of healthcare for National Guard and Reservist's families, sub-standard equipment, roaming around in circles entering towns and clearing them and then leaving only to have the "insurgents" move back in (Mission? What mission?)

Endanger Their Lives : lack of vehicular and body armor, filthy bug-infested food, failed to secure 400 tons of explosives which disappeared, failed to secure UN sealed nuclear materials

Encouraging Terrorists to continue... : "Bring it On!" "Stay the Course" "I'm just not that concerned where bin Laden is. He hides." "It's hard work!" "Mission Accomplished!"


Feel free to add to this.

[autorank]

51. That's about as good as it can get. They have no shame.

What a concept, the troops have clearly insufficient protection, supplies, and numbers...so let's ignore that completely and concentrate on a grieving mother standing in a ditch. Priceless.

[evilqueen]

52. I know.

It's pathetic, really. They attack the messenger and ignore her message. Meanwhile, our kids are over there dying and killing people and no one can tell any of us when this will stop.

[MelissaB]

55. Morning kick for an interesting thread.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nashville_brook]

65. i don't think they are dissin KOS, just the site that censors relevant

material. why waste our time on KOS, when we know we have to fix problems of Election Fraud before any kind of "framing" can be meaningful.

we're pragmatists. we don't like to waste time. we want the next election to be fair and square.

we need this message to get out there and KOS, with all his many readers is a powerful site. if this site is calls Election Fraud a bust -- we must attempt to challenge that statement.

stroll on over to the Election forums and behold -- EVIDENCE. lots of it. lots of questions that need to be answered before we waste another election on rigged equipment.

especially see FlyByNight's
TN "paperless voting is illegal" lawsuit filed
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x391011

not only did a major story get broken on DU -- it's being put back together. we/they are working hard to get this fixed. it really sucks to have a fellow DUer call us "assholes" for that.

maybe when you spend months of your time and thousand of your dollars on REFUTING the charge of fraud, your words will hold more water. but as it stands -- the "side" that has done the work has the floor. read the evidence, then call us whatever you want. but don't be blind and ignorant. educate yourself to what your fellow DU'ers have been up to for the past year while everyone else has been flaming on about "frames" and dlc v dnc" and other stuff that just won't amount to a hill of beans.

[autorank]

68. Well, having REAL EVIDENCE before your mouth off is important!

I'm sure you would agree with that.

There is plenty of evidence to question the results of the electoin and it's presented all over the internet, including DU. There are links upthread that are fairly straight forward ane elswhere. If you think it's 'tinfoilhat nuttrers' at this point then you need to look at the evidence because that's not the nature of it.

[Chi]

82. I think the tinfoilhat nutters who think the 2000 election was stolen...

are the most amusing.

[autorank]

97. Yeah, just because Gore had more votes, even in FL. Trust SCOTUS

The Supreme Court majority was clear for *, can't people count? ;)

[jonnyblitz]

95. i thought his comments on peaceniks and hippies was lame..nt

[freedomfries]

57. election discussion repression

is voter repression.

[mondo joe]

58. Ridiculous comparison. One is about stomping out dissent in the PUBLIC

arena, one is about setting a standard within a private site.

You might as well add DU to the list for having policies about messages here too.

[Walt Starr]

59. Well said!

:thumbsup:

Skinner has made some rules I don't agree with but I abide by them because this is Skinner's house!

[Qanisqineq]

60. hear hear

IMO - his site, he can do as he pleases. Don't like it, leave.

[autorank]

69. ...is the New York Times "private" -- I guess we never criticize it...

That's the logic your putting forth. Don't ever criticize any media becuase they're ultimately private, owned by individuals or the share holders.

Extend your logic and we leave Fox alone.

The new media needs to be better than the old media. If it's not then it's just another form of negative input into the political system.

[mondo joe]

70. Who said to not criticiize media? Are you even reading these posts?

Criticize anyone you like.

But Kos establishing ground rules for the use of his site is NOT the same as a group vowing to stifle public dissent.

[nashville_brook]

80. i wonder what "the ground rules" are for the NYT, WP and CNN

yes indeed -- there are some stories that just don't make the cut.

everyone head on over to KOS for the latest on the missing white girl in Aruba.

[mondo joe]

86. Are you opposed to someone who owns a message board settting rules

about the content?

And do you think an individual web site owner is comperable to a major multimillion $ media outlet?

[meganmonkey]

112. Of course people have the right to set rules on their message board

But I think someone who runs one of the leading sites of the liberal community's 'new media' also has some responsibility to that community. Otherwise he/she may as well be another 'major multimillion $ media outlet', who panders to advertisers and ratings without any regard to truth.

The truth hurts. It isn't pretty and it isn't easy. The last time I went to an election reform workshop in Columbus (I can't believe I am saying this out loud) I bawled my eyes out for the three hour drive home. It was so bad I had to pull over a couple times. Because it felt so overwhelming and horrible and impossible to beat.

And let me be clear here - that kind of thing doesn't happen much to me. I can usually keep it together pretty good. Even here on DU, with all the absurd misinformation people post sometimes, and my relative anonymity, I generally stay rational and on point.

This issue is SO IMPORTANT that anyone who wants anything 'progressive' to advance in this country HAS to recognize it. If we don't fix it, we will have a hell of a time getting anything else done.

If Kos wants to be a force for change, he may want to rethink some things. If he just wants a popular website that people can read and feel good about and that is free of things that may keep the readers up at night, then that's what he has, I guess.

:shrug:

[mondo joe]

114. What specific responsibility does he have to that community,

and how should he gauge what the COMMUNITY wants?

Also, does every progressive have to embrace every progressive issue? Or provide a forum for every progressive issue?

[meganmonkey]

121. That's the catch. He gets to determine that for himself.

He gets to determine what he finds appropriate. He gets to determine what the priorities are. Because of his popularity, and the fact that he gets referred to in the corporate media, he gets interviews, etc., he has put himself in a position where he effects the 'progressive community' as a whole. Mind you - I realize that the progressive community is not a homogenous unit that moves and believes as one. However, we are perceived as such by many, in the same way many here perceive the 'RW' or 'Repugs' or whatever as being all the same.

If those who have attained a position such as Kos' choose to stifle debate of a given topic on their sites, it stifles it on a wider scale. It gets less overall coverage. The decisions he makes will have an effect on the greater community. That is what I mean by responsibility - the consequences of his actions are bigger than him, bigger than his site.

And I, like many others on this thread, find it disappointing that Kos has made a blanket judgment on what we consider an extremely important issue. They haven't made a reasoned argument against it, they have just made it taboo. It's a shame. Fortunately there are folks at various publications and websites (for example: Scoop and Vanity Fair) who are still on top of this issue. But they are few and far between, and that really sucks.

So, to specifically answer the last two questions you ask: No and No. They don't have to do anything. But what they choose to do matters a lot.

:patriot:

[mondo joe]

126. Well here's some common ground:

"If those who have attained a position such as Kos' choose to stifle debate of a given topic on their sites, it stifles it on a wider scale. It gets less overall coverage. The decisions he makes will have an effect on the greater community."

So we agree on one thing: the things that can be brought to attention to have some upper limit. More coverage on one issue ultimately makes for less of another.

Now here's where we may differ: I think Kos should use his site for those issues HE wants to pursue. Others can do the same.

[meganmonkey]

129. Even more common ground:

"I think Kos should use his site for those issues HE wants to pursue. "

You're right.

AFAIC, the best thing this thread can do is expose this fact to people who love Kos unconditionally and don't realize what his decisions do to the bigger picture. Food for thought, if you will.

We could certainly start a new website specifically for this issue - in fact, there are many already. Unfortunately they don't have the readership of more general progressive sites like Kos.

So thank goodness for the ER & D forum here at DU! While it has lost it's 'Admin picks' status, it is easy to direct newbies to it with a link.
(hey lurking newbies interested in this: :hi: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=203 )

The Truth is all we are trying to reveal here. :)

[mondo joe]

130. Thanks Megan. For what it's worth I'm not a Kos fan. In fact I

have probably glanced at maybe 5 times in all of 2005.

But I think we have enough issues to go around and for people to champion the fight in many ways. Kos, I think, has his route and other people have theirs. I'm glad about that.

[meganmonkey]

132. Thank you for a civil and well-reasoned exchange

:)
Sometimes that is hard to find around here when you're not in 100% agreement.

:toast:

Have a good weekend!

[meganmonkey]

113. Self delete - dupe

[autorank]

100. Here are some ground rules...

America, love it leave it!

Yeah, we're Democrats but don't expect any democracy in the way we run our site/business/household/relationship!

It's my property, get the hell off or I'll shoot you!

We own this company and we can control what you say, tap your phone, fire you for your political beliefs! It's "our house."

It's my house and if you say one more word, I'll knock the shit out of you!

I make up the rules, they don't have to make sense, shut up and follow them!

and the ultimate from the people who control 80% of the wealth in this country...

It's our country, we own it, bought it fair and square; we'll do anything you damn well please. If you don't like it, we'll make a bunch of rules (which we can because we own the place) that don't have to make any sense AND we'll fire you, jail you, and, IF YOU PROTEST, WE'LL BEAT THE SHIT OUT OF YOU. DAMN IT, "IT'S OUR HOUSE!"

Good organizations are managed through motivation, consensus and real incentives based on mutual respect -- just look at who makes money in business over the long term, the companies who treat their employees well (maybe not the public but employees). They don't have to because "its there house" but they do because respecting diverse view points presumes you don't know it all and because it works!

[mondo joe]

111. Again, your analogies are deeply flawed.

And you consistently use examples in which there is a substantial and irreversable power imbalance (ie, corporate owners vs employee).

These analogies do not hold up to this case.

Please answer, do you think a person has the right to set the ground rules for content on his or her web site?

Should DU have to let Freepers post anything they want here?

[autorank]

119. You miss my point but you're welcome on the thread!

Look, my point isn't that KOS or the others in power there should be barred from acting in a thuggish, anti-intellectual, and ultimately self-defeating fashion (we'll lose elections forever with their thinking).

My point was and is--what are the similarities in rhetoric between the Legion and the ARMANDO post. They are clearly intolerant and similar in structure and intent--behave or get the Hell out.

If KOS were a private club and if he didn't claim to be part of the public media (call it a blog, internet news site, whatever, it's public), then I would not bother to comment.

Armando and KOS can't have it both ways: if you're out there claiming to be a Democrat, don't be surprised with criticism when your positions are anti-democratic. Simple as that.

Can he and the site be anti-democratic, sure but don't hide from from it with the old, "we reserve the right to serve anyone for any reason" argument.

[mondo joe]

124. And your analogy, again, is flawed.

The Legion's effort is to stifle all dissent.

Kos's is that it's not an issue on HIS site. He's not stopping anyone from doing anything about it elsewhere.

Per your rationale, if I don't permit smoking in my own house it's no different than people who want to stop smoking anything anywhere.

Being a democrat doesn't mean you don't have guidelines or ground rules for your OWN materials or forums. Or do you think DU is not democratic enough because it has ground rules?

[autorank]

137. Fundamental issue: if our votes don't count, we don't win elections.

If there are reasons to suspect that our votes don't count then we need to vigorously investigate those circumstances. If you don't think that there are reasons to suspect this, then I encourage you to do more research. If you're a Democrat and you see three elections where there was a broad range of voter suppression and highly questionable outcomes and if your conclusion is "shut up, get off of my Democratic board if you want to talk about voter suppression and the high likelihood of fraud" THEN you are subject to criticism and ridicule. If you make that statement, not like I just did but as a blustery "f" you, "boss says so" and "I'll kick your ass" you're also the subject of ridicule. Democrats don't behave, in my world, like a bunch of thugs and bullies. When we did, we lost to Richard Nixon.

With regard to no smoking in your house, cheers. Your goal is, I suspect, to protect your family and yourself from the dangers of second hand smoke. If you don't allow election fraud in your country, your goal is to prevent the theft of elections and the installment of the malicious, damaging gang in the WH now. Same thing. To prevent the harm to our democracy, we need to operate in a reality based way, face the facts, and THINK. KOS stops thinking from time to time and the site behaves in a thuggish way.

As I said earlier, I'm here by choice. It's fine to have forum rules and to have forums for one group another. I wouldn't expect FR to welcome or even tolerate me. But when THE core issue, free and fair elections, one for which people died for in the 60's, is ridiculed and dismissed, then the forum that does that is working against our party and I'll speak up.

[autorank]

116. I'm "reading" and I will "criticize anyone" I like...don't need permission

KOS is a public service, lets establish that. If he's out there, he can take his shots. If he's out there and says tyranical things, he can take his shots. If he can't, too bad. Make it a private forum.

This is an issue within th left -- are we nothing more than clones of the right when we get some power? I think the fulminations at KOS approach that behavior.

[mondo joe]

128. Sure he can take the shots. I'm just telling you you're wrong.

And you are.

PS: I never gave or attempted to give you "permission". Merely an observation that no one is stopping you.

[nashville_brook]

63. SEXIST too

"And I certainly won't let the sanctimonious women's studies set play that role on this site. Feel free to be offended. Feel free to claim that I'm somehow abandoning "progressive principles" by running the ad. It's a free country. Feel free to storm off in a huff. Other deserving bloggers could use the patronage."

[acmejack]

66. Comes pretty close to arrogance!

And before some here say "just don't go to his site, you whiner' & "he can do what he wants", you may put it in the bank that I don't & won't since he made that post. He can do what he wants & I am free to patronize who I want.

[autorank]

71. "arrogance" ... that's what struck me about the post...faux toughness

I've had a lifetime of listening to bluster by people who think, "It's my property/school/blabla and I can do what I damn well want." Well, it's a free country and we can say what we want about policy and presentation. The notion that KOS is private and can somehow spew sexist, anti democracy, and pro violent propaganda and get off without criticism is silly.

All those who say "private" news/information sites can't be criticized, remember NEVER to gripe about your local Republican paper, television, and right wing hate radio...hey it's "private"--better shut up because criticism and debate is not allowed. That view borders on the inane.

[nashville_brook]

74. RIGHT ON! autorank, yer on FIRE today! thank you for calling this

what it is.

and i would take issue with the "private" aspect of KOS, since the site is a team effort via tha diaries. he's come under the influence of "celebrity" -- wouldn't want to ruin his chances of being a talking head on AAR. i wonder who suggested to him that he should distance himself from FRAUD?

[meganmonkey]

106. And even worse - this ISN'T a RW/repug site - instead it is

one of the most well-known 'liberal' or 'progressive' sites out there. If the people who are supposed to be 'on our side' are flat-out repressing the discussion of this (or any other) very important issue, how are we going to accomplish anything?

Kos' site has a responsibility to offer fairness and openness, if they don't provide it then they aren't what they purport to be. As I posted below, this topic should not be taboo - rather it should be in the forefront, because much of our other efforts are useless without fair elections.

[nashville_brook]

78. yah -- and i have to thank people like autorank who draw attention

to this.

i'm a stay-at-home "mom" and probably have more time than most (in between loads of laundry) to read and write b/c that's how i've organized my life for this brief period. i ahve never found the time to devote any serious attention to KOS. he just doesn't produce results the way our family here at DU (especially in the elections forum) does.

[jonnyblitz]

96. I had no idea he was so pompous until this thread...

i was ready to embrace him for his anti-DLC stance and info..

reading the posts in response to his comments are very interesting..seems like many other progressives think he is an ass too...

[nashville_brook]

102. that's evidence of the effectiveness of KOS' "in-group" v "out-group"

strategy. if there is only silence, you don't realize it's not there.

he's taken on the dlc/dnc thing b/c that pays off for him. it's what his handlers tell him they would like to talk about. it's what his publisher says will sell. this is a non-ish if the votes aren't counted.

things happen so fast in bloggerworld that if you blink you'll miss something essential. i could never deal with the design of KOS, so i never paid it much attention until The Purge --which as i recall, was a weekend event. big Greatest Page news for a saturday and part of a sunday. that thread lead me to lots of un-kos links that went deeper into the muckety muck.

if you listen to AAR -- pay attention to how many shows he appears on, and which ones. i think this gives insight into the frau. we all love our enfants. we want the young buck to grow into a stag worthy of his horns.

that's not the case with KOS. he's not worthy.

[jonnyblitz]

118. i found his comments in many of his posts VERY offensive

and arrogant once i started digging around. I was COMPLETELY not expecting that. to be honest the only time i looked at his site is when a DUer linked to it in a post. this goes to show i need to fully research a person before i blindly embrace them .some of his comments sound almost freeperish. it was such a dissappointment for me to find this out. I learned a lesson here.

[autorank]

101. Very nice comments...!!!

This place is more free-wheeling but it does produce really cutting edge material like ERD. IMHO, Latest Breaking News is the best news service for progressives anywhere.

I started out as a fan of KOS and then became progressively more offended as they "power trip" showed up along with the fame...toxic narcotic fame is.

Nashvill is a great place from my visits and it's got a some historical significance since that was the gathering for the 1st post election voting rights meeting.

:hi:

[nashville_brook]

123. Athens of the South at your service. nashville is quite cool for thinkers

we put value on dialogue, it seems. much more so than other places i've lived.

i couldn't make it to the event -- was sick all weekend and having family issues. i felt so awful about it that i've not been in erd as much i used to. i'm amazed at how outside of erd, election fraud is considered a CT. right here on DU. when erd was removed from the highlighted forums i figured that was a "bad" thing. but GD needs this dialogue. it shouldn't just be in ERD. as long as there are people spending their time on rhetorical wars with the rw, dlc or whoever, they should at least have the opportunity to see how meaningless that energy is being spent.

i had forgotten that the term 'tinfoilhatter' had gained it's strength after the election. seeing it used to describe election fraud just floors me. wake up, folks.

there's also a subtext in this thread of "private enterprise" such as KOS' site, rolodex, etc, is beyond critique. what a fallacy. why would we even bother with emails, petitions, and READING, if that were the case. it's not private enterprise when it claims to speak for the movement. we have a responsibility to call it out when it's censoring voices -- if only to ALERT people who otherwise might be taken in by it.

thanks for this morning thread -- i needed a JOLT to get my weekend started.

[Neecy]

84. yes, that was also offensive

I remember the storm that set off - disgusting.

I read Kos for the diaries, and try to ignore him whenever possible. Sometimes, though, when he takes the time from endlessly blogging about the book he's writing and mouths off about being a "war pragmatist" and attacking what he considers unwashed 'hippy-types' spoiling his picture of a perfect sanitized protest I stay away from there for a while. His attitude really irks me. He's full of hostility, and I really think he has some serious personality issues.

There have been a lot of comparisons here between the rules Kos makes and the ones Skinner has established here. The difference is that Skinner doesn't go out of his way to offend his allies by making silly attacks on anyone. Skinner doesn't degrade women, or peace activists, nor does he flit around promoting himself while demeaning the very people who fund his site and give him the numbers for such stature. I'll eventually go back to Kos to keep up with some of the diarists I enjoy, but I'll never stop thinking that he's just a snot-nosed little jerk.

[nashville_brook]

91. i lurked for a couple of years before joining DU and the one thing that

really impressed me was the professionalism of Skinner and the overall democracy here at DU. i want that to continue. right now we are in a place where there's plenty of "extraordinary claims" to go around. if we weren't allowed to examine them, we'd just be talking about jen and brad, like the rest of the media. hmm -- is there a pattern here?

i don't mind (too much) when extraordinary claims are put to higher standards. i think it makes the discussion more interesting and ultimately strengthens the claim if it merits it.

if anyone is interested in how these struggles pan out, just go back and read a good history of 60s radicalism. closing doors to important questions makes people pack up and go elsewhere. i think it might have caused disco, too, but i'm still working on THAT conspiracy theory :)

[meganmonkey]

85. Damn - is that really the position about election fraud at Kos?

They'll just remove any mention of it? I tried your link but it doesn't seem to work. They really won't let anyone post about it? But they'll let someone post a scathing, judgmental diatribe against those who are working to fix our election system?

For the record, I go to Kos occasionally when linked from a thread here, but I seldom venture there on my own so I don't know their modus operandi.

Here's my take. It is true, as others have pointed out, that it is well within the rights of Kos to disallow anything he doesn't find appropriate. No question. He can censor out any mention of fraud, or anything else he finds inappropriate. That's just fine.

But, as my momma always said, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

Obviously, there are certain ideas that may be better off left to another site, another blog, another poster. There are some topics that I find reasonable to be treated as taboo. The tough question is - where do you draw the line? At the holocause deniers? At the people who insist that there are thousands more US casualties than the DoD is reporting (which I believe I have seen posted at Kos, IIRC)? At the people who say the tsunami last winter was caused by the US gov't?

So that is the big question - Where do you draw the line?

I have a hard time picturing Election Fraud as being over the line for any true progressive who has any interest in securing the future of democracy in this country. Maybe that is easy for me to say, since I have read Conyers report, I have read papers published by respected statisticians, I have read articles in 'mainstream' publications like Vanity Fair. I have attended numerous events, locally and out-of-state, that addressed election fraud, from rallies to workshops. I had the honor to talk to some very level-headed individuals in many fields - from politicians to teachers to attorneys to scientists - who are working on fixing the Election system, and who realize that without understanding what happened in the last few elections, we can never really fix the system. I also had the joy of spending time with Andy S.

I have seen these people in action, and they are not 'conspiracy nuts' who will jump at the chance to accuse the Bush admin, or the gov't in general, of wrongdoing. These are people who saw first-hand what is going on. They know their history and they have a vision for the future where we don't just give 'free and fair elections' lip service and we don't have a populace who is naive enough to 'trust the machines'. They are professionals who are dedicated their time and energy to the cause. They demand accountability and checks and balances - which is fundamental to what this nation should be.

So what is the responsibility of places like Kos to provide a medium in which ideas, popular or not, can be hashed out? Bottom line is, they don't owe anyone anything. They don't owe the people out in cyberspace a platform to discuss whatever the hell they want. But if they purport to represent progressives, or to further the political dialogue of this country, they better be awfully careful where they draw the line. To stifle this vital topic is not a good idea, IMHO.

That's my 2 cents.

And autorank - I will add that I do see the connection between the AL and Kos as quite a stretch, but I definitely see your point, and it forced me to think about it :)

Never Give Up.

:patriot:

[nashville_brook]

93. freemarket... i like autrank's post b/c it gives us the info we need to

make informed decisions about the media we consume. this is a deal-killer for me. alternative press needs to be an "alternative" to what's already out there. kos is providing more of the same and bless his heart, i hope he gets a gig out of it. maybe he can have stephanapolis' spot when he retires.

what is the "responsibility" of KOS, might be the wrong question. maybe the question should be: what is the nature of an alt media that merits my respect? KOS doesn't meet this requirement for me.

he has no responsibility except to himself -- thats a decision he made. i'm not in the market for being someone's adoring audience. i want truth.

[Land Shark]

103. Excellent question: What is it about alt media that merits my respect?

i would say that it tends to, far more frequently, satisfy the credo of what legitimate journalism is supposed to be: We Report, You Decide.

"responsible' journalism is what MSM and KOS (trying to break into that) think they are doing, but it involves censoring certain types of stories and threads based on standards they find extraordinarily difficult to articulate but nonetheless rigorously enforce. it amounts to a series of biases, including biases against "radical" stories that would tend to question fundamental assumptions of government, but this is utterly inconsistent with jefferson's belief that a revolution, at least of consciousness, would be needed in every generation.

"We report, you decide" merits respect because it RESPECTS ME AS THE VIEWER, READER OR LISTENER to detect truth from falsity, and to search further. Kos doesn't trust (apparently) that his readership can detect his straw-man 'baseless conspiracy theories' if and when printed on his site. For that reason, my respect slips for kos because his respect for me and all other readers has slipped.

[autorank]

108. Great words!!!

MSM and "wannabes: "censoring certain types of stories and threads based on standards they find extraordinarily difficult to articulate but nonetheless rigorously enforce." Really, we need a network Jack Nicholson to say: "Truth, you can't stand the truth!" and they can't -- can't stand to think about it, stretch their assumptions, face the evidence, follow through instead of creating "short attention span theater."

"my respect slips for kos because his respect for me and all other readers has slipped." But you know Land Shark, we're the minions, the great unwashed, the ignorant who can't be exposed to toxic theories because it will distort our "mental hygiene." Cleaning up "mental hygiene"--sound familiar.

Good lord, you just made be realize, maybe DKOS is trying to be MSNBC.

It's always a good idea to remember who got you to where you are. Sure, it's his site, ultimately he can make any rules he wants, dress up like Judge Dred and scream at his pets---but he's selling his services (without telling readers, i.e., during the primaries); he's selling ad space; he's selling "good will" as in business value. How did he get in a position to do this? Well it might just be his customers? Respect your customers, clients, patients ... whatever ... they pay the rent.

[nashville_brook]

125. i worked in "alternative journalism" for a while and can tell you THEIR

biases can be just as stupid as MSM's -- especially when they get a little bit of ego on them. alt journ often becomes more of a gatekeeper, missing stories bc they are trying to be accepted.

slave mentality is something to be ridiculed, and kos is getting his dailyDOS of that here today. :)

[autorank]

136. Perfect nashville_brook

"slave mentality is something to be ridiculed, and kos is getting his dailyDOS of that here today. :)"

We are not to be treated as "serfs" nor should we endorse those who treat others that way.

[toey]

89. my step-dad was a commander for our local Am. Leg. for 5 years

I wonder what he thinks of the photo of me i sent him from the local newscast of the vigil....

[autorank]

105. You know, if he respects you and keeps a positive relationship...

that would be just great. I run into a lot of people in my work, which is not political. I don't even care what their views are. I find that I work as well with people from the right and the left because occasionally I find out where they're at.

Why can't people disagree and actually talk about things? That's the best way to learn. I remember the anti-war movement in the '60's...beautiful opportunity. But our side did everything imaginable, some of our side that is, to offend the general public with off-topic issues. Viet Nam went on so long because of political abuse but, I've always wondered: if we'd down played the "sex/drugs/anti-war connection" and not treated the general public like a bunch of stooges, how much quicker the general mobilization against the war would have happened. That's the difference today...Cindy Sheehan isn't saying that she's part of a larger "cultural revolution", she just wants a bad war to stop.

Good luck with step dad...this could be a positive event. Hell, you should share pictures with him, get one of his, or ask him for one. He'd flip, in a good way I bet.

[rman]

98. Next up: Cindy and Stormfront 'like-minded'?

One is left-wing/progressive, the other far-right-wing.

Both are opposed to the war in Iraq, so by association the Cindy peace movement is as bad as Stormfront. Therefore we must ignore Cindy's plight.

Now who would benefit from this?

[autorank]

107. Wrong, Cindy isn't telling the guy to "shut up and go away", not at all!

[mondo joe]

115. And Kos isn't trying to stop others from protesting for election

reform. He's just not using HIS dime to do it.

What a flawed analogy.

[autorank]

120. New "meme" "flawed analogy"

It's not his dime, unless he just sells advertising or consulting services (based on his branding through the public use of the site) for fun.

Sure he's trying to stop others "protesting for election reform" becasue he says he's an information/news service but then jumps down the throats of people who make very good cases.

That's what it's about, KOS CAN'T STAND THE TRUTH.

[mondo joe]

127. Do you think Kos and DU should give equal access to Freepers to

post on the sites? Wouldn't that be more open debate?

If not, what right does he (or Skinner) have to say no to Freepers?

Of course it's his dime. It's his site.

And he is not trying to stop others - he's stopping it on HIS site.

[autorank]

140. "It's his dime" ... say something new. It's free speech time and

he's on a massive ego trip, IMHO.

And do not equate election fraud activists with Freepers. Talk about "flawed analogies."

[bleever]

133. Still wondering where Kos gets his confidence in our elections.

I'm baffled.


:shrug:

[autorank]

153. In a word....SOMA

:evilgrin:

[Rex]

134. So when are they going after Boosh?

"The American Legion will stand against anyone and any group that would demoralize our troops, or worse, endanger their lives by encouraging terrorists to continue their cowardly attacks against freedom-loving peoples," Thomas Cadmus, national commander, told delegates at the group's national convention in Honolulu."

There were no terrorists in Iraq until Boosh invaded. We told the Taliban it was our way or the highway...so they help OBL destroy American confidence. Boosh and crew IGNORED warnings of a 911 attack ALL YEAR LONG in 2001. Now Iraq will become another Iran.

So when do you asshole Legionnaires plan on going after Boosh?

[autorank]

135. Well, they went after Bosch but that was long ago. Guys w/ear muffs!!!

Those are our people. Those "Bullshit protector" paper ear muffs worn by those rank and file Legionaires were just amazing. That is the most disrespect I've seen by a public audience toward Boosh. I'm half convinced that the national office of the AL made this wacky statement just to deflect attention to the amazing scene on the floor during the Boosh speech. They may have been in a minority but they put them on and walked around with impugnity...wonderful stuff.

I had the very same thought as you when I heard bLiar speak lately...talking about vicious attacks on civilians...and then Boosh in TX...they both belong on trial!

[autorank]

141. DKOS Komentator Kritisizes KOS, Then Recants: This is just AWFUL!

DKOS Komentator Kritisizes KOS, Then Recants: This is just AWFUL!

I learned a great deal from this thread and thank those of you who expanded my horizons. First, while this was posted, 89% of Americans in a poll came out for the right to protest. Watch Bush, watch Bush fall, watch Bush fall again in the polls.

I also learned that I just scratched the surface in my observations of DKOS.

Take a look at these two posts by Diarist kid Oakland. Post one is a harsh criticism of the “KOS Kult of Personality” and neocons positions. Just a day later, the poor “kid” is groveling in public, can’t say he’s sorry enough.

This is amazing stuff.

this blog is your blog
by kid oakland
Thu Aug 25th, 2005 at 18:35:52 EDT

I don't know what made Markos decide to post his "war pragamatist" post, but it does mean a couple of things as far as I'm concerened.

<snip>

The idea that this is "Markos blog" is bad politics.

It's bad politics for two reasons:
• a community blog should belong to its community, not to one person. that is especially true for a blog this large and important.
• Markos is a poor leader, who has made poor choices, often involving behind the scenes stuff that none of us see. His complete lack of accountability in this regard is a liability to the very causes he seems to espouse..and to whatever "progressive blogging" is supposed to mean.

It's time for someone from the inside to call Markos on his shit.

After years of posting anti-war pieces on his website...kos chose last Tuesday to go "Rush Limbaugh" on us..at a time when the most powerful anti-war protest of our lifetime is in full force.
Now, it's not that we didn't know that Markos was, in his own words, a "military hawk". We all knew that. What we didn't know was that he would sell out his "not-as-hawk-as-kos" anti-war allies with utter public contempt...even as Cindy Sheehan, a diarist here, was preparing to go back to Crawford.

Think about that. It fits a pattern.
• Markos pushed an insider attack on Donna Brazile just as the Dean chairmanship of the DNC came up.
• Markos attacked "women's studies" folks just as selling advertising to other blogs came on line.
• Markos attacked NARAL just as the Roberts nomination came front and center.

I don't just blame Markos for this state of affairs. I blame his "blog brothers" who've seen this go down and have helped strategize it, or...who have simply watched without doing a thing even though they disagreed. When will you speak up? What point is "too much"?

<snip>

This blog is your blog. It has been for a good long time now. In my view, it's high time for folks to start acting like it

http://dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/8/25/183553/544
----------------------------------------

and there were consequences that we can only imagine for kid Oakland,
or did he just do an 8th step in record time?

----------------------------------------
apologies
by kid oakland
Sat Aug 27th, 2005 at 00:44:10 EDT

I'd like to apologize to kos, to kossacks and to the readers here for letting you all down with that diary yesterday.

If I was going to be critical, I should have done it:

a) more constructively
b) more respectfully, of kos, and of you all.

I've read your comments and tried to make considered responses to as many as I could. But at this point, taking the weight of the criticism, the respect I have for the voices expressing it and the general view of how my piece was taken...as an unfair screed full of insinuations that many folks took as implying dirty secrets...
implications of dirty secrets that, in fact, I have zero knowledge of...

it's pretty clear I fucked up.

I'm human. I was angry and fed up, and still am. I bashed when I should have chilled and thought it out more.

<snip>

I'm sorry for that. I regret it. And I apologize to you all, and to Markos specifically, for that diary.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/8/27/04410/6409
---------------------------------

They must have one nasty back room at that blog.

There are admin-user conflicts at any forum but at DU, they are kept
strictly private. No public groveling required orallowed.

This public groveling at KOS is positively embarassing.

:wtf:

[acmejack]

144. Kid Oakland is one of the best Kos has, IMO

Wow, like you pointed out it must be vicious. There must be a full scale civil war taking place backstage.

It appears Kos is making his move to the mainstream, perhaps the fine hand of the DLC in this?

[autorank]

151. Same old, same old... KOS has a KULT

I didn't realized that 'kid Oakland' was a heavy hitter over there. Some one was kind enough to alert me to this public spat. It is always to tell just from print, but as I read the retraction I thought, wow there has been some real damage done here...to the 'kid.' Hope not.

:hi:

[T Town Jake]

145. Your post is misleading at best...

...and an out-and-out crock of shit at worst (I tend toward the latter opinion).

It takes two disparate situations, about two very different topics, and is presented as if they are moral equivalents. Horseshit - but nothing more than I've come to expect from the tinfoilhatters and conspiracy loons.

KOS is right to disallow the raving nutters to post conspiracy bilge on his site: if you don't like the rules, you're welcome to take your posting prowess elsewhere.

[autorank]

147. A "coincidence theorist" speaks his mind (sic)

"if you don't like the rules, you're welcome to take your posting prowess elsewhere." We're on DU not KOS. I can take my posts where ever I'm allowed to post.

As far as tinfoilhatters and conspiracy "loons" go, that's just a nasty piece of content that's not tied to reality. If you've bothered to review the news of the past five years, it will not surprise you that the Republicans will stop at nothing to gain and retain power. A review of the evidence on election fraud 2000 shows that it took place period, that's objective data readily available. A review of the data by you or anyone with an open mind will show that there are horrible issues with election 2004, see Krugman's 8/19/05 column in the NYT. Call him a 'loon.'

We all have the right to judge people who arrogate themselves to "leadership" positions on the left. He can do whatever he wants and when he acts like a dictator and employs thugs to threaten people in his name, he's up for scrutiny.

It's called free speech, democracy, voicing your opinion and the above is mine.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

149. Koz is a sexist centrist asshole

[Zhade]

154. Armando needs a friggin' spellchecker.

It kind of takes the wind out of the sails of an argument already listing to starboard when it contains so many spelling errors so easily caught!

[autorank]

155. And he's a Law School graduate, supposedly...

ACME Trucking Academy and School of Legil Stuff (so there we have it) ;)