Homeopathy is not the same thing as all "alternative medicines."

[crispini]

There has been an awful lot of discussion of homeopathy on this board recently, and many people are tending to lump in all alternative medicines together, saying that they are all "snake oil." I would like to point out that these skeptics are basically throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Just because one is open to natural, holistic methods of healing does not make one a "woo-woo." SOME of these alternative medicines have been proven to work -- and I'm not talking about anecdotal evidence, either, I'm talking about REAL CLINICAL TRIALS.

From the same Lancet article being discussed in another thread:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/medicine/story/0,11381,1556831,00.html

Do alternative medicines work?

Acupuncture
This ancient Chinese therapy usually involves the insertion of fine needles into the body to soothe pains and restore good health.

It is thought to aid the treatment of arthritis, migraines, anxiety, rheumatism and general aches and pains. Advocates also use it to alleviate infertility, menstrual problems, nausea and dizziness.

Acupuncture is thought to be among the best researched and most effective of complementary therapies. Hundreds of studies in recent decades have produced strong evidence that it works for some conditions.

...

Osteopathy

Practitioners use manipulation to correct faulty body structures by releasing tension and stresses to make joints supple. Although similar to chiropractic treatment, osteopaths work on the whole body, while chiropractors tend to concentrate on the spine.

Osteopaths usually specialise in back problems, repetitive strain injury, arthritic pain, sports injuries and ailments relating to posture. Last year a 1,334-patient study concluded that spinal manipulation is a cost-effective addition to standard clinical treatment for back pain.

Also, some herbal medicines (NOT homoepathic dilutions) have some of the same "active ingredients" as Western drugs, so of *course* they are effective.

I can personally attest to the marvelous effects of acupuncture. I had a horrible repetitive stress injury in my hands and arms. My MD and a neurologist could do nothing for me; after x-rays and many painkillers they were considering operating. In desperation I went to an acupuncturist and it worked wonderfully for me. I was so thrilled!

And, a friend was GREATLY helped by the "Gerson" therapy, based on eating 100% organic, pesticide-free fruits and vegetables.

How about we hear from some of ya'll who have been helped by other alternative medicines?

[Ripley]

1. Are you talking to me?

I used snake oil in that other thread when talking about coral calcium. I did NOT call alternative medicine "woo woo" as others do. In fact in that thread I quoted the acupuncture part of the article you just posted.

So, I hope you didn't misunderstand me. I support holistic medicine, which includes Western, chinese, etc. I really did not understand what homeopathy was, but have since become informed.

:shrug:

[crispini]

3. No, not you.

Just a general point.

[Ripley]

4. Okay.

I just noticed you used the same words I used in that other thread.

Good point. :hi:

[longship]

2. Homeopathy in theory is baseless.

They didn't need to waste money on these studies. The basis of homeopathy is the "molecular memory of water" which is as bogus as snake oil. In fact, the base quantum mechanical principles, on which the science of chemistry is based, forbid such a thing. Any fourth year physics student would know such a thing. Any high school chemistry student knows that extreme dilution leads to the complete purging of reactants in solution. It is a principle which is used daily in chemistry labs everywhere. If it wasn't true, "water memory" would have been discovered independently a myriad of times. Homeopathy is baseless both on principle and experiment, and could be harmful when gullible people use it to treat potentially harmful disease.

[jmatthan]

6. Strongly disagree

Homeopathy is a holistic approach to medicine. Allopathy is a specificity oriented technique.

The theory of dilution is not the principle of homeopathy. It is that like cures like. That is it allows the body to develop its defence systems. Many native, unnani and ayurvedic systems of medicine follow the same approach.

The two cannot be compared. It is like comparing apples with elephants.

The present thrust by the pharmaceutical multinationals is to bring to disrepute all forms of medicine which do not conform to their views on treatment. Thalidomide and VIOXX are two of the problems of the allophathic system. Do you throw out all allopathic approaches because of these two incidents?

My wife, my children when small, and I have benefited considerably to help us overcome quite different forms of ailments using homeopathy. You could attribute the recovery of my wife and myself to "faith", but certainly not the curing of children who had no idea what they were being treated for or with!

[beam me up scottie]

9. Hogwash.

The "Remedies" Are Placebos
Homeopathic products are made from minerals, botanical substances, and several other sources. If the original substance is soluble, one part is diluted with either nine or ninety-nine parts of distilled water and/or alcohol and shaken vigorously (succussed); if insoluble, it is finely ground and pulverized in similar proportions with powdered lactose (milk sugar). One part of the diluted medicine is then further diluted, and the process is repeated until the desired concentration is reached. Dilutions of 1 to 10 are designated by the Roman numeral X (1X = 1/10, 3X = 1/1,000, 6X = 1/1,000,000). Similarly, dilutions of 1 to 100 are designated by the Roman numeral C (1C = 1/100, 3C = 1/1,000,000, and so on). Most remedies today range from 6X to 30X, but products of 30C or more are marketed.

A 30X dilution means that the original substance has been diluted 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times. Assuming that a cubic centimeter of water contains 15 drops, this number is greater than the number of drops of water that would fill a container more than 50 times the size of the Earth. Imagine placing a drop of red dye into such a container so that it disperses evenly. Homeopathy's "law of infinitesimals" is the equivalent of saying that any drop of water subsequently removed from that container will possess an essence of redness. Robert L. Park, Ph.D., a prominent physicist who is executive director of The American Physical Society, has noted that since the least amount of a substance in a solution is one molecule, a 30C solution would have to have at least one molecule of the original substance dissolved in a minimum of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 molecules of water. This would require a container more than 30,000,000,000 times the size of the Earth.

Imagine how many compounds must be present, in quantities of a molecule or more, in every dose of a homeopathic drug. Even under the most scrupulously clean conditions, airborne dust in the manufacturing facility must carry thousands of different molecules of biological origin derived from local sources (bacteria, viruses, fungi, respiratory droplets, sloughed skin cells, insect feces) as well as distant ones (pollens, soil particles, products of combustion), along with mineral particles of terrestrial and even extraterrestrial origin (meteor dust). Similarly, the "inert" diluents used in the process must have their own library of microcontaminants.
The dilution/potentiation process in homeopathy involves a stepwise dilution carried to fantastic extremes, with "succussion" between each dilution. Succussion involves shaking or rapping the container a certain way. During the step-by-step dilution process, how is the emerging drug preparation supposed to know which of the countless substances in the container is the One that means business? How is it that thousands (millions?) of chemical compounds know that they are required to lay low, to just stand around while the Potent One is anointed to the status of Healer? That this scenario could lead to distinct products uniquely suited to treat particular illnesses is beyond implausible.
Thus, until homeopathy's apologists can supply a plausible (nonmagical) mechanism for the "potentiation"-through-dilution of precisely one of the many substances in each of their products, it is impossible to accept that they have correctly identified the active ingredients in their products. Any study claiming to demonstrate effectiveness of a homeopathic medication should be rejected out-of-hand unless it includes a list of all the substances present in concentrations equal to or greater than the purported active ingredient at every stage of the dilution process, along with a rationale for rejecting each of them as a suspect.
The process of "proving" through which homeopaths decided which medicine matches which symptom is no more sensible. Provings involved taking various substances recording every twitch, sneeze, ache or itch that occurred afterward -- often for several days. Homeopathy's followers take for granted that every sensation reported was caused by whatever substance was administered, and that extremely dilute doses of that substance would then be just the right thing to treat anyone with those specific symptoms.
Dr. Park has noted that to expect to get even one molecule of the "medicinal" substance allegedly present in 30X pills, it would be necessary to take some two billion of them, which would total about a thousand tons of lactose plus whatever impurities the lactose contained.

http://www.alternativehealth.co.nz/anti/homeopathy.htm

[Beetwasher]

13. If this is True, It Should Be Testable

"The theory of dilution is not the principle of homeopathy. It is that like cures like. That is it allows the body to develop its defence systems. Many native, unnani and ayurvedic systems of medicine follow the same approach."

And so far, it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Your appeal to conspiracy and anecdotes is irrelevant.

[jmatthan]

42. Sorry, holistic systems are not testable

by the tests you apply in specificity situations.

If you do not understand that you do not understand the body and how it functions.

Ayurvedic systems have been in place for thousands of years.

Almost all homeopathic concentrates are derived from natural sources.

You may not like conspiracy theories but soon you will not be able to buy your vitamins over the counter in the US. Maybe then you will understand what I mean.

In Europe our health shops freedoms have already been severely curtailed. Accept it or not, that is your problem, not mine.

I have not fallen ill for over 22 years - and I take NO medicines, not even an aspirin.

I was cured on of severe migraine, paralytic, by an old lady in a small Indian village with no education over 22 years ago - so I believe when I experience. Till you experience you may not find the answer, so say what you like.

May I ask you to read this:

http://koti.netplaza.fi/~findians/Briefings/Archives/articles.html#MigraineCure

Hocus pocus - well maybe. But I have been free for 22 years. So let me believe this hocus pocus after all allopathic doctors gave me no hope whatsoever except put me on opium!!

[Beetwasher]

50. Oh Brother

If it ain't testable, then it's worthless.

There are so many fallacies in your post it's ridiculous.

Holstic systems are not testable? Says you! What exactly IS a holistic system? Is it magic or something? :eyes:

If something is claimed to HAVE a specific effect, it's a priori testable. Period. End of story. Thing "A" has effect "B" on system "C". Regardless if the system is holistic or not, if A leads to B then it's testable. End of story.

"Ayurvedic systems have been in place for thousands of years."

So what? So was blood draining before it was found out as bullshit. PPeople believed in demons for thousands of years to, some still do. :eyes:

"Almost all homeopathic concentrates are derived from natural sources."

Err, almost everything is derived from "natural sources" in some way or another. What's your point?

"You may not like conspiracy theories but soon you will not be able to buy your vitamins over the counter in the US. Maybe then you will understand what I mean."

I don't think so. Have any evidence for this claim? Your appeal to bullshit like this really makes you look like a woo woo.

"In Europe our health shops freedoms have already been severely curtailed. Accept it or not, that is your problem, not mine."

I don't know WTF your talking about. Ain't my problem. I live in the US. Actually it DOES sound like YOUR problem.

Your anecdotes are not evidence of anything, nor are the anecdotes on that website. The only thing proven, time and again to actually WORK to show efficacy, is actually testing through experimentation and clinical trials. Period. I'm sorry you find that so difficult to understand, but that too is your problem.

[jmatthan]

99. Your post shows the arrogance and ignorance

of the western mind which fails to even understand what things mean.

In any of the systems, from ayurveda to homeopathy, the practitioner does not treat the ailment but the condition of the patient.

If you have a back pain, it does not mean the ailment is the back. It may be an intestinal problem. That is the difference between a specificity treatment to a holistic one.

Present day doctors have no clue of this approach. It would obviate the need for most of the drugs on the market today.

Why don't you address Thalidomide and VIOXX?

[HuckleB]

101. If you understand the body and how it functions...

then you can test the proposed treatments to see if they actually work.

You want to believe in something? I tell you what. One small carrot a day is the cure for all your ills. Now go forth and eat a carrot every day. You've never been as free in your life as you will be now.

[longship]

19. Sorry, it's rubbish.

Homeopathy is rubbish, pure and simple. There are no physical changes to molecules from *previous* associations. If there were, experiments would be seeing these effects. Chemistry goes back to Dalton and Boyle. If homeopathic principles held any water there would be experiments where these principles were observed as side effects. It just doesn't happen. Sorry, my friend. You are wrong. Save your money.

[jmatthan]

43. Homeopathy is FREE in India!!

eom

[longship]

47. Free? It's still not worth the cost.

n/t

[Modem Butterfly]

56. Yeah! And they have the highest life expectancy rate in the world!

[longship]

98. post hoc ergo proptor hoc

Illogical conclusion.

[Modem Butterfly]

109. It's a smart-ass comment, nothing more

India actually has a low life-expectancy, but a lack of proper medical care is only one factor of many.

[jmatthan]

100. Liufe expectancy has nothing to do with

the form of medicine practiced in a country.

[HuckleB]

104. Really?

So prenatal and postnatal and general preventive care doesn't affect life expectancy?

Hmm.

[jmatthan]

110. There are different forms of medicine

and there are different forms of medical care.

They arte not on the same platform at all.

Yes, really.

How many years have you lived in a third world country where you have seen all the different forms of care being practiced simultaneously. If you see some of the allopathic hospitals in some of these countries you would be surprised that anyone is alive at all.

Cleanliness and WATER, which appears to be the subject of this thread are more important that the form of medical care practiced!!

[HuckleB]

116. Thanks for not answering the question.

[jmatthan]

122. I think I answered it precisely

So for your sake I become more specific.

It is where and how such care is practiced - not whether it is practiced.

If you have pre and post natal care in a dirty filthy slum where there is no sanitation, there is unlikely to be any benefit. However, those that survive have high immunity factors.

On the other hand in a sterile environment as in Finland the death rate of children will drop but the babies turn out to be more allergic, anemic and unable to cope the aspects of day to day life in a non-sterile environment.

Neither of these is related to the type of medical system involved!!

Get it? NO?

[HuckleB]

125. Thanks for the theories and for going off in yet another direction.

Got actual studies to back up your theories, while you're at it?

Oh, yeah, and the questions are still on the table, if you ever want to actually answer them.

[Bill McBlueState]

55. well, they *do* hold plenty of water.

But not much of anything else!

:evilgrin:

[Ian David]

118. ?

[HuckleB]

120. Umm. Placebo effects are noted in animals.

Expectations about your health or illness can cause reality to follow suit:
http://www.salon.com/health/feature/1999/07/15/nocebo/print.html

"...To Moerman, the most intriguing part of the PBB episode may come from the cows. He recently charted milk production in Michigan cows in pounds of milk per cow per year ("I had never really realized how wonderful agricultural statistics are") and found a sharp drop in milk production in 1974. "It drops by 10 to 12 percent. It just goes 'kerchunk' and it drops. Ninety-nine percent of the cows never got any of this PBB, but their production of milk dropped anyway. Well, you know cows don't read the newspaper. But what do cows do?" Moerman asks. "Hang out with farmers?" I guess. "That's right. They hang out with farmers. I think we have a nocebo effect in domestic animals."

Moerman intends to research this intriguing area further before publishing, but the working hypothesis is that the farmers' concern about their cows, who for all they knew had been gobbling pure poison, was somehow communicated to the cows, who responded by slacking off on the milk production. He also points out a difference between nocebo and placebo.

Rats are apparently as vulnerable as cows. In one experiment, which didn't set out to be about nocebo, rats were given sweetened water to drink and then given shots of cyclophosphamide, which causes nausea and also induces sometimes fatal immunosuppression. To the experimenters' surprise, rats who only got one shot of cyclophosphamide but kept on being fed the sweetened water continued dying at a high rate. The rats associated feeling dreadful with the water, and so as long as they got the water they felt dreadful -- even unto death. ..."


Spend some time at the library researching placebo effect in animals in vet journals. It's real. So let's not pretend that the placebo effect doesn't also exist for children and infants.

[crispini]

11. Not my point anyway.

this thread is NOT about homeopathy.

[renate]

14. I agree

In theory, it's baseless.
In practice, it works.

The fact that we don't know how something works doesn't mean that it doesn't. (Labeling a possible mechanism as "water memory" doesn't actually explain it, anyway--I'm with you on your doubts about that.)

We don't know how the universe got here. Are we really supposed to believe all this stuff just popped into existence? That's ridiculous. Yet--look around.

[Beetwasher]

15. "In practice, it works"

No, that's the point, in practice, it doesn't work. You're anecdotes are not evidence that it works.

[longship]

23. In practice, so do placebos

which is all that homeopathy is... expensive placebos at that.

[screembloodymurder]

111. Have they tested homeopathy on the believers?

If they simply test using a "control group", they may get different results. Part of the cure may be faith.

[LaurenG]

112. Reading through your posts

I am going to say that you are driven by logic pure and simple. Human beings are more than logic and incredible developments have been made based on dreams or hunches. You will have your come uppance eventually. Try to open that closed posture a bit and let your imagination have some room to play. You are excluding the finer points of energy when you argue that alternative therapies have no place in society. Many hospitals are treating patients now with alternative medicine. Good luck with that attitude, it will only keep you stuck in what is physical thus you have no way to use the other half of your brain to see the possibilities.:shrug:

[beam me up scottie]

26. Ah, a creationist .

Just the type of person targeted by homeopathy quacks.

[Modem Butterfly]

27. Of course it didn't just pop into existance

It evolved over hundereds of billions of years. Just because some idiots think their god wrinkled her little nose a couple of times and created the universe doesn't make it so.

[HuckleB]

105. Please explain and show how you know "it works."

[Beetwasher]

5. Actually, The Skeptics Have Done Just The Opposite

It's been pointed out (by a skeptic in that thread) that Homeopathy is being conflated w/ other things like herbal medicine and therefore it causes confusion. Many over the counter remedies are being labelled as "homeopathic" when they're not as a mareketing gimmick or ploy. It's become a buzzword that's being tossed around and morphing from it's original meaning to be attached to ANY form of alternative treatment.

[crispini]

17. Well, some of the skeptics have done so,

but others have been participating in the conflation. I agree with you, btw, that the word "homeopathy" is being misused and being applied to herbal medicines. I have a tube of arnica on my desk which is a 7% preparation-- quite possibly enough to contain active ingredients and a far cry from the 0.003% dilution of the pills.

[SidDithers]

33. Not 0.003% dilution of the pills...

http://tinyurl.com/bsmyc

Arnica 30x is diluted by 10^30, so you're looking at a dilution of 0.0000000000000000000000000003%

7% has arnica in it. 30x doesn't.

Sid

Edit to fix link

[crispini]

35. That little -- wow.

I do find that pretty implausible.

[HuckleB]

102. That was my initial response, as well.

My impression, after reading the big thread on homeopathy, was that far too many "defenders" of complementary medicine in general were equating homeopathy with all complementary medicines, not the other way round, as this thread starter intimates.

[renate]

7. on that homeopathy thread

I kept seeing posts from people who, I suspect, haven't actually TRIED any of the medicines they're criticizing (I apologize if I'm wrong). Which is fair enough--I just think it would be nicer if they'd reserve judgment, for the following reason:

Homeopathy is an exceptionally difficult form of medicine to research using double-blind studies because medicines are given depending on an individual's symptoms. In other words, you can't give 1000 people Natrum muriaticum for depression the same way you can give them all a single drug like Prozac and then analyze the data to see how many of them responded. The vast majority wouldn't respond at all because that's not the remedy that fits their symptoms. But a study design in which everybody got a remedy individually selected by a homeopath would be exceptionally difficult to carry out--variables would be not only the type of medicine used but the abilities of each homeopath to accurately pick the appropriate medicine.

I'm not disputing the data in the Lancet article--I'm just pointing out the difficulties in studying the topic. It's sort of like astronomy, where we're limited by our ability to collect good data. The calculated size of the universe varies according to all the variables that go into calculating the Hubble constant--tweak a number here and there when telescopes improve and suddenly we go from a 2 billion-year-old universe to a 15 billion-year-old one. Was the universe ever actually younger than the Earth? No. Was the Big Bang theory therefore flawed? No, the data were. (Yeah, the current thinking is of an inflationary universe, but let's keep it simple--it's basically still a Big Bang.) Would any astronomer, given the gift of hindsight, claim now that the Big Bang theory was wrong before that shift in calculation but correct now? No, it was the data that were wrong. When there are inherent difficulties with collecting data, a true scientist keeps an open mind until those difficulties are overcome.

I didn't mean to write so much, but I have seen homeopathy work very effectively to treat in acute injuries and in long-term psychological conditions and everything in between, in myself and my family and in dozens of other people. (I've also seen it fail, of course.) I also would not even begin to claim that I know how it works and most homeopaths wouldn't claim to either. But not knowing how it works doesn't mean that it doesn't. As of a few years ago, people didn't know how aspirin reduced pain. But it did and does.

[Beetwasher]

8. Sorry, You're Wrong

Homeopathic remedies should be able to be tested just as accurately and effectively as any other type of medicine. If it supposedly has an effect, it should be possible to determine what that effect is and under what conditions it can be achieved and then tested to see if the effect actually exists. Scientists are very good at this nowadays.

Why is it believers always resort to their personal anecdotes? "I've seen it! It works! Believe me!" Sorry, but that just doesn't cut it. There are people who say the same thing about putting crystals on their foreheads.

[renate]

16. oh, okay

I'm wrong.

[jmatthan]

46. Okay, we are all wrong!!

eom

[Modem Butterfly]

10. Most medicines are given depending on symptoms

Jesus fucking Christ.

:eyes:

[SOS]

121. With varying results

The JOURNAL of the AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION (JAMA) Vol 284, No 4, July 26th 2000 article written by Dr Barbara Starfield, MD, MPH, of the Johns Hopkins School of Hygiene and Public Health, shows that medical errors may be the third leading cause of death in the United States.

The report shows there are 2,000 deaths/year from unnecessary surgery; 7000 deaths/year from medication errors in hospitals; 20,000 deaths/year from other errors in hospitals; 80,000 deaths/year from infections in hospitals; 106,000 deaths/year from non-error, adverse effects of medications - these total up to 225,000 deaths per year in the US from iatrogenic causes which ranks these deaths as the # 3 killer. Iatrogenic is a term used when a patient dies as a direct result of treatments by a physician, whether it is from misdiagnosis of the ailment or from adverse drug reactions used to treat the illness.

[SidDithers]

12. Homeopathy is extreme dliution...

Extreme dilutions no longer contain any of original "active" ingredient.

There's no longer any "there" there.

Sid

[longship]

22. I would not try homeopathy

because I *know* that it is a placebo. This is not conjecture or some philosophical tenet. The principles on which homeopathy is based goes against scientific principles which have been used for hundreds of years. In order for homeopathy to be a fact the whole basis of chemistry would have to be modified and hundreds of years of experiments would have to be erroneous. Plus, the major theory of 20th century physics on which all chemistry is based, quantum mechanics, would have to be wrong to the point that experiments and theory should already have uncovered homeopathic principles. The fact that they have not observed these principles in theory or in practice is sufficient for me to place homeopathy alongside alchemy, phlogiston, astrology, and all the other pseudo-scientific claptrap.

[beam me up scottie]

29. For christs sake, it's WATER! H2O ! W . A . T . E . R .

I drink it everyday and all it cures is my thirst.

Did you bother to look into the dilution ratios?

It has nothing to do with science.

It's been fake since the beginning.

If you want to believe in faith healing, fine, Just don't call it medicine or science.

[HuckleB]

119. Hmm.

Maybe that's the kind of argument that PharmCo's should use when they get sued about side effects to their medicines? For example, Vioxx is a very difficult form of treatment to research using double-blind studies to note side effects, because side effects occur based on the individual's physiology, prior health conditions, genetic make-up, environment, mental health, and dumb luck, in addition to, possibly, the medicine itself. Umm. But, still, that argument doesn't work, does it? Why? Because researchers have dealt with the difficulties to note that Vioxx does increase the likelihood of certain side effects regardless of the other factors. Sorry, but claiming that it's difficult to study something as a defense for repearted research that shows a lack of efficacy just doesn't wash. Either show that it works, or stop selling snake oil to vulnerable people. This is about ethics, integrity and honesty.

[Glenda]

18. My Gramma was into natural remedies..

which she passed onto my Mom, and maybe that is why my family is open to alternative medicine. Simple natural remedies like saline nasal irrigation for sinus infection...

Why do you suppose phamaceuticals have such heavy advertising? Because if people realized that they could use natural remedies more than they do, why buy all those drugs? And now healthcare is so costly, partly because Americans have to be on so many drugs!

I believe that drugs have a place, and natural remedies have a place. And isn't it great that we have a choice and are able to use the best remedy in the appropriate situation? Isn't it wonderful when you find a doctor who knows all options?

[crispini]

20. Yep.

"There are more things under heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Western medicine, by and large, is far too quick to dope you up with too-strong, too-expensive, pharmaceutical-company-profiting drugs. Healers should HEAL, not go for the quick fix.

[Glenda]

24. I've also noticed certain medical conditions...

that aren't profitable for mainstream medicine don't have drugs associated with them. Medicine can be REALLY political!

Probably the broken healthcare system is partially to blame with doctors feeling pressure to go for the quick fix. They never have enough time with the patient, except to just hand them a drug.

[Modem Butterfly]

21. Saline irrigation isn't an alternative medicine

Doctors have been using saline solution almost since the beginning.

Because if people realized that they could use natural remedies more than they do, why buy all those drugs? And now healthcare is so costly, partly because Americans have to be on so many drugs!

If natural remedies are so good, how come life expectancies have risen dramatically with the rise and spread of modern medicine?

And just FYI, people have to be on so many drugs because so many more conditions and treatments have been discovered. For istance, conditions like lupus (which I have) and diabetes used to be virtual death sentences only a few generations ago.

[firefox]

25. Cannabis is alternative medicine

It may well have saved my life when bleeding with ulcerative colitis. A doctor wanted me to pay him $2500 for a colonoscopy to get a prescription for a sulfur compound that I should be able to buy without a doctors approval.

I know damned well its effects on rage and I do not need any studies to tell me that it relaxes me.

I read CureZone.com everyday. It used to be that you might see 200 people online or 1200. But in the last few days the number displayed online there has been like 10,000 or 12,000.

There are plenty of things people can do to improve their health and the biggest thing would be determining a healthy diet. I eat a few almonds everyday for magnesium, which is a hard thing to get in most people's diets. I try to eat raw foods and avoid beef and pork as meats, which is the exact thing that was on PBS and out of a doctors mouth just two days ago.

Alternative medicine is not about the magic silver bullet from nature. It is about educating yourself and plotting your own course through the maize of people out for your health care money.

[crispini]

28. awright!

I agree with your post 100%.

[Glenda]

30. Certain illnesses seem to have a big stress component

I know the people at the "Mind Body Medical Institute" (led by Herbert Benson who popularized "the Relaxation Response," a kind of meditation) do research on how stress reduction affects physical symptoms http://www.mbmi.org/pages/r_mbmir1.asp.

I'll have to check out CureZone.com, that you mentioned... Thanks!

Healthy diet is a HUGE issue, and it sound like you have educated yourself. It's hard to find doctors who know anything about nutrition these days...

[K-W]

31. No, it is conventional medicine. EOM

[immoderate]

32. You missed the point.

Many natural treatments are effective. Homeopathic remedies require dilutions that contain no active ingredients.

No scientific study has demonstrated their effectiveness. Do not confuse this with herbal or other "natural" treatments which do contain active ingredients and can be very effective.

--IMM

[crispini]

36. No, you missed the point.

That's exactly what the thread is about. :) Homeopathy isn't the same as natural remedies!

[immoderate]

40. Au contraire!

That's what I was saying.

--IMM

[crispini]

41. Yes, we're all saying the same thing! :)

We're having a violent agreement! :hi:

[immoderate]

44. Well! OK then!

:-)

(I wasn't sure the poster I replied to got the difference.)

--IMM

[alarimer]

34. Just because something is "natural" does not make it better

or safer or more effective than something that is not "natural". They do have interaction with other drugs. I have read the back of those packages as I do for all medicines. For St. John's Wort, it says you should not use it if you spend a lot of time in the sun. I don't necessarily buy the claim natural=superior.

[crispini]

37. Yes, that is also true.

But not all the time. And it really depends. Like the poster above said, you really have to educate yourself about them. If I have the choice between something cheaper and milder than a prescription drug, I would prefer that, even if it takes a bit longer to work. As long as it still works! :)

[beam me up scottie]

38. Your post is disingenuous.

First of all, many proponents of alternative medicine didn't understand that homeopathy is different than other "remedies".

Secondly, I don't believe that any skeptic dismissed all natural medicines and therapies.

I think you are using a strawman fallacy to retaliate against those who ridicule quackery.

[crispini]

39. How is the tone of my post "retaliatory"?

I agree with you that there is a lot of confusion, and the point of the post is to help clear up the confusion, and to encourage discussion.

And, yes, there are some people who are conflating both. (Edited to add: maybe I should have written "some" in the OP instead of "many.")The entire substance of the original post of the Prince Charles thread yesterday started off with a conflation of both (and then went off into homeopathy, which honestly I don't care about one way or another).

And, for example, this pair of posts in that thread yesterday, which are obviously sarcastic.

29. You want to treat an UTI without antibiotics?...
And if the infection moves to the kidneys, then what? What if the kidneys fail? I hear a lifetime of dialysis can get pretty expensive.

35. Well you can use accupuncture for that

Or this post in today's thread:

You know why homeopathic meds are so cheap? Because tap water is cheap, so is corn starch, and nonfat dry milk...

But I meant more in the overall sense - Quackery such as:

Chiropractic
Therapeutic Touch
Chi/Ki therapies
Homoepathy
Acupuncture/Acupressure
psychic surgery

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4463053&mesg_id=4463884

My whole point is that it's NOT black and white... I spent some time on "Quackwatch" yesterday and it seems to me that person has an obvious axe to grind. For example, there are legitimate clinical studies regarding acupuncture's value for pain relief, which the site neglects to mention. Should the buyer beware of alternative therapies and do their homework? Of course. (I would say the same of Western medicine) Are ALL alternative therapies hogwash? No.

[SidDithers]

45. Hey, that was me & Modem...

And I was being completely serious when I asked about UTI's. They can become very serious, and even lead to kidey failure in extreme cases, if left untreated. Using homeopathy to treat an UTI is the same as leaving the condition untreated.

Sid

[beam me up scottie]

48. You deliberately misrepresented skeptics.

Most of us agree with at least some of what you posted.
However, without actual proof of your claims, no skeptic is going to give you the benefit of the doubt.

[crispini]

49. Ok, I should not have used the word "many" instead of "some."

What else am I supposed to prove again? I'm confused now.

[beam me up scottie]

52. That acupuncture and osteopathy "have been proven to work",

for starters.

Work for what?
For whom?
How often?
What clinical trials?
Peer reviewed?
Consistent positive results based on repetitive research?

You cite anecdotal evidence in your op.
That is not proof that acupuncture works.

[crispini]

54. I do NOT cite ONLY ancecdotal evidence in my OP.

I cite the original Guardian article!!! Here's the quote again --

Acupuncture is thought to be among the best researched and most effective of complementary therapies. Hundreds of studies in recent decades have produced strong evidence that it works for some conditions.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/medicine/story/0,11381,1556831,00.html

University of Maryland study on Osteoarthritis of the Knee:
http://www.umm.edu/news/releases/acupuncture.html

UMM study on Low Back Pain:
http://www.umm.edu/news/releases/back_pain.html

You want me to keep looking? It's all just google. :shrug:

[beam me up scottie]

57. The Guardian got it right:

Acupuncture is thought to be among the best researched and most effective of complementary therapies. Hundreds of studies in recent decades have produced strong evidence that it works for some conditions.

Used as a complimentary treatment it may work for SOME conditions SOME of the time.

There needs to be much more research done regarding the what, when and why before it can be considered legitimate medical therapy.

[crispini]

58. Sounds like another violent agreement

Except I'd bold different things:

Acupuncture is thought to be among the best researched and most effective of complementary therapies. Hundreds of studies in recent decades have produced strong evidence that it works for some conditions.

Sure, it works for SOME conditions, SOME of the time. What medical treatment CAN'T you say that about? Even conventional medical treatments do not work for all of the conditions all of the time.

[beam me up scottie]

61. Not the same thing.

Symptom relief is not as easy to monitor as tumor reduction or blood pressure, for example.

This is why placebos sometimes seem to be very effective for pain relief.

There are obviously enough positive results to warrant further research, but it needs to be much more detailed and definitive.


I will NOT say the same thing about osteopathy, chiropractology, crainiology or any other quackery that presumes to "cure" by manipulating an unrelated part of your body.

[crispini]

63. Ok, I'll grant you that pain relief is not as easy to measure

as the other things you mention. But I am curious about your standards for "detailed and definitive." I mean, the University of Maryland study seems rather detailed and definitive to me.

“For people with chronic low back pain, this analysis shows that acupuncture is clearly effective in providing considerable pain relief,” says Eric Manheimer, study author and director of database and evaluation for the University of Maryland Center for Integrative Medicine. “The research also showed that acupuncture provided true pain relief. The benefit was not just due to the placebo effect.”

The reviewers scoured the medical literature for all studies involving acupuncture for treating low back pain. To minimize bias, the American and British teams developed explicit criteria for evaluating the studies and did the evaluations independently. Their analysis included only randomized controlled trials, the gold standard study design for evaluating medical procedures.

...(snip)

Manheimer says, “We wanted the studies for the analysis to meet the highest scientific standards. As a way to account for a possible placebo effect, we looked at many studies that used ‘sham acupuncture’ as a control group, where acupuncture needles were inserted only superficially or in the wrong place.”

http://www.umm.edu/news/releases/back_pain.html

Admittedly, I'm not a scientist. So what more would you require for it to be "detailed and definitive?"

[beam me up scottie]

67. First of all, studies should be done by independent researchers,

NOT Universities that are promoting and profiting from acupuncture treatments and NOT funded by The National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine.

Also it would be more credible if one of the researchers didn't make statements like this:

"Energy (chi) flows to maintain the balance. When you have illness the energy is blocked. So instead of treating after the blockage occurs, very often we use acupuncture treatment to prevent the blockage in order to maintain well-being,"

These "studies" were done by a university with a stake in the results and have not been duplicated nor peer-reviewed.

[noiretextatique]

79. what's the problem with "chi?"

not anglo enuf :shrug:

[beam me up scottie]

81. What is it?

[noiretextatique]

83. traditional chinese medicine

try google

[beam me up scottie]

87. Did that really go that far over your head ?

I know it did Rosie's, but I didn't ask her.

[beam me up scottie]

94. I'll explain the point so that Rosie doesn't sprain something.

The point is that chi does not exist in the realm of science.

Get it?

That's why any researcher who refers to it as if it was is not credible.

[noiretextatique]

130. so you are baised in favor of anglo science

thanks for admitting it. then again, since you don't know even know what chi means, biased is not exactly the correct word.

[Desertrose]

86. you should really know what it is you're bashing

so that you can bash from a place of knowledge
:evilgrin:

[beam me up scottie]

89. whoooooooooooooooooosh !

:rofl:

[Desertrose]

91. and here I didn't think you'd notice it going right over your head...

but you made the right sound so I guess you did after all.


how cute to make sounds when you don't understand something

[beam me up scottie]

93. You do obtuse very well !

You're also doing a good job pretending to know what chi is.

[crispini]

137. Okey doke.

How's this, from the NIH Consensus Statement on Acupuncture:

Here's the conclusion:

Conclusions.
Acupuncture as a therapeutic intervention is widely practiced in the United States. While there have been many studies of its potential usefulness, many of these studies provide equivocal results because of design, sample size, and other factors. The issue is further complicated by inherent difficulties in the use of appropriate controls, such as placebos and sham acupuncture groups. However, promising results have emerged, for example, showing efficacy of acupuncture in adult postoperative and chemotherapy nausea and vomiting and in postoperative dental pain. There are other situations such as addiction, stroke rehabilitation, headache, menstrual cramps, tennis elbow, fibromyalgia, myofascial pain, osteoarthritis, low back pain, carpal tunnel syndrome, and asthma, in which acupuncture may be useful as an adjunct treatment or an acceptable alternative or be included in a comprehensive management program. Further research is likely to uncover additional areas where acupuncture interventions will be useful.

http://odp.od.nih.gov/consensus/cons/107/107_statement.htm

So, it seems to me that although they're not 100% coming out in favor of it, they are not rejecting it outright as quackery either. (Which is pretty much the same thing you said earlier.)

It's a pretty interesting article, well worth a look. Here's their last sentence:

There is sufficient evidence of acupuncture's value to expand its use into conventional medicine and to encourage further studies of its physiology and clinical value.

(I guess I like being an "early adopter" of stuff, as long as it works. :P)

[beam me up scottie]

97. Getting back to acupuncture.

I personally don't lump it in with the obvious quackery because there has been enough serious research done on acupuncture to lead me to believe that it DOES work for some people in some cases and that it is not due to a placebo effect.

I look forward to seeing the results of ongoing and future research.

I just don't agree that these particular studies are unbiased and completely credible.

I don't doubt that the therapy worked for you and that it has helped many others.

Don't think that because I am waiting to hear more evidence that I am in any way critical of your opinion.

[crispini]

138. Sounds reasonable.

Check out the link from NIH I posted in 137, they seem to have the same opinion you do. :hi:

[etherealtruth]

51. I don't dismiss alternative therapies as a group ...

Most physicians I know use one form or another of these therapies (accupuncture, some herbal, dietary ... ), but never homeopathic remedies.

If there was validity to the homeopathic dilutions much of the municipal water systems would need to be classified as remedies ...

[Ridiculous Bill]

53. skeptics

kaiser is my hmo
they've recently begun allowing 'alternative treatments' (acupuncture, chiropractic).

i was recently in the hospital for some brain surgery. The hospital provided someone to do reiki.

are these endorsements enough to convince a skeptical mind? if the medical industry lends credence to certain things? What is this utter obsession with the 'testability' of things? Not everything in life can be quantified.

[K-W]

59. One word. Science. EOM

[firefox]

60. Term- medical fascism- politicising medicine for profit n/t

[K-W]

65. Huh? EOM

[beam me up scottie]

74. Term used by paranoid conspiracy theorists who are focused

on medical sciences.
See:

The Medical Mafia

Cartels
Assassinations
Books revealing the medical conspiracy
Stealing
Cartel shills
Monopoly quotes
Mind Control
Leading cause of death through Iatrogenic disease
Main control ploy: Fear of Disease Profits first
Medical Hoaxes
Disease knowledge suppressed
Natural Healing
Covert vaccine agendas
Vaccine Disease Racket
Drug vaccine deception

Treatment of vaccine victims
Child experiments
Human Experiments
Human Experiments timeline

Laetrile



"The medical cartel, at the highest level, is not out to help people, it is out to harm them, to weaken them. To kill them. At one point in my career, I had a long conversation with a man who occupied a high government position in an African nation. He told me that he was well aware of this. He told me that WHO is a front for these depopulation interests."--Jon Rappoport interview

"The medical monopoly or medical trust, euphemistically called the American Medical Association, is not merely the meanest monopoly ever organized, but the most arrogant, dangerous and despotic organisation which ever managed a free people in this or any other age. Any and all methods of healing the sick by means of safe, simple and natural remedies are sure to be assailed and denounced by the arrogant leaders of the AMA doctors' trust as fakes, frauds and humbugs."---J.W Hodge, M.D

http://www.whale.to/a/medical_mafia.html

[moriverrat]

71. Do you ever have a feeling that

The $tormtrooper$ are in our midst?:evilfrown:

[noiretextatique]

68. kaiser is my dad's hmo: now i am skeptical of traditional medicine

not because of the science behind, but because of the practice of it. my father has so deteriorated from the hospital infection he got during his surgery that he's too weak to have chemo for the lung cancer that wil eventually kill him. kaiser misdisgnosed his initial problem, and because of that misdiagnosis, he was forced to have surgery, and of course, that's where he got the infection.
for all the damage kaiser's bungling did, it might have been better for my father to try some alternative therapy.

i am considering acupunture for my carpal tunnel, because i don't want to have surgery.
i am glad you had a better experience with kaiser (sounds like it anyway), and i hope you are feeling better.

[Desertrose]

70. for carpal tunnel, look into Bowen therapy...really helped me

www.bowtech.com
non-invasive and seems like the more you get the faster your body heals. Its like it remembers the Bowen and just needs a reminder:)

I have known more people lately who have gotten horrendous infections fromsurgery & hospitals....scary. So sorry about your Dad. :hug:

[noiretextatique]

72. thanks, desertrose

my dad is in hospice care now, which *ironically* seems to be the best service kaiser has given him thus far.
and thanks for the carpal tunnel information...i already checked out the site. i'll try anything to avoid an operation.

[HuckleB]

106. Interesting...

Kaiser uses acupuncture and chiropractic treatments for those ailments for which there is an evidence base of benefit. Looks like they've been quantified.

Who paid for your reiki?

[Desertrose]

62. Thank you crispini, good post....

I think it is good for the patients to have the option of alternative therapies/medicines. I also think it is great that western medicine and MDs are open to learning more about some modalities that have been around for a long time. Just because something was used before (ahem) *modern medicine* doesn't automatically make it *snake oil*...on the contrary, things tested over time and found to be effective are certainly worth keeping.

I've had great results with Bowen therapy. Got me out of a wrist brace for carpal tunnel and helped lowerback pain, headaches...you name it. Bowen has helped me. Better than massage or chiropractic!!
http://www.bowtech.com/


As for the persistent and relentless naysayers here, well some evidently just enjoy flames....obviously their choice, same way with the shutting down of any discussion that does not pass their definition of approved subjects. I wonder what they would have to discuss without certain topics to deride. Nah, actually, I don't really wonder at all. They'd just have to find something else to put down to give them their daily "smug fix". ;)

[crispini]

64. Thanks!

:hi: I just hate to see stuff that seems to really work get lumped in with other stuff that probably does not.

[K-W]

66. "things tested over time and found to be effective"

Nobody on this thread disagrees that that any treatment that is proven effective should be used. That is a straw man, and a tired one at that.

As for the rest of your post, just more tired rhetoric where you attack people and thier motives instead of addressing thier arguments.

[beam me up scottie]

69. Yep, you got her number.

tsk tsk tsk...

Some people have such issues.

I guess bitterness is something else that alternative medicine can't cure.

[Desertrose]

75. aww beamie

I'm sorry you see it that way......

I'm not bitter about anything at all honey :hug:

Yes its clear that some people have issues....its such a shame to see someone projecting their stuff on everyone else though. I don't know why you are so vehemently opposed to things oustide the realm of science. There's really nothing to be afraid of or hate or even be bitter about. Either you can use alternative medicine or not. If not, no need to stomp it into the ground is there?? I mean, is it really so necessary to have to feel you're *right* and everyone else who doesn't think the way you do is wrong? After all, we should all be able to decide for ourselves what does or doesn't work for us.

[beam me up scottie]

76. Sure you are. You bash skeptics at every opportunity.

Which is really funny when you realize we have evidence to back up our statements while you have... what is it you have again ?

Oh-that's right, you have faith.

Why do some people feel personally attacked when we present proof that homeopathy is nothing but water?

Because it questions their faith and true believers know that their belief system cannot withstand scrutiny.

Magic must remain a mystery in order to survive.

Sorry if that threatens you.

And it really must, or you wouldn't have used this thread to promote your hatred of skeptics.

;-)

[noiretextatique]

77. i believe she has results

at least from her carpal tunnel therapy. are you skeptical of her account of that as well?

[beam me up scottie]

80. Results of what? Faith healing ?

Anecdotal evidence is not scientific and is only useful for communal reinforcement.

If she thinks something worked, great. I'm thrilled for her.

People shouldn't make false claims about pseudo-science or someone might call them on it.(not that Rose did)

[noiretextatique]

84. hmm...how can you claim it's "faith healing?"

how is it that you KNOW that...are you a psychic? massage makes my carpel tunnel symtoms more bearable...is that also "faith-healing?"

[beam me up scottie]

88. Because it has no basis in science?

Bowtech is unique in the field of bodywork. Its relatively few, gentle "moves" over muscle and other soft tissue address the whole body, stimulating it to reset and heal itself. The healing may occur at all levels as needed: physical, chemical, emotional, mental, energetic, etc.

Explain to me how this works.

psst! it's not "massage"! ;-)

[noiretextatique]

129. for someone who has such strong opinions

you don't seem to know much about the things you claim are 'faith-healing.' perhaps you should do your own research.

[Desertrose]

85. Bowen is not *faith healing*

now whose prejudice is showing. Do you ever read a link? Do you try to understand anything before you bash?



Bowen Therapy

This innovative holistic bodywork was developed by Tom Bowen in Australia in the mid-1950s. It is now practiced in 31 countries and taught in over 20. On this website, you'll find descriptions of Bowtech and its history, testimonials by clients and students, and information about the internationally standard training curriculum and seminars that lead to recognition as an Accredited Bowen Practitioner.

www.bowtech.com

[beam me up scottie]

90. I did! I'm laughing too hard to comment coherently !

This is priceless!!!

How It Works

Bowtech is neither derived from nor similar to any other hands-on modality. The mechanisms of action are not completely understood, but it is generally agreed that it works primarily through the nervous system on both structural and energetic levels. Healing most likely occur through the response of the body's autonomic nervous system to the Bowtech moves.

Simply stated, Bowtech allows the body to reset and heal itself. The work consists of several series of gently rolling, connective tissue moves. There are frequent important pauses between sets of moves, which give the body time to benefit from each set. By selecting appropriate combinations and sequences of moves, the practitioner is able to address the body as a whole, and/or to target one or more specific problems. The practitioner discerns stress build-up in muscle groups and utilizes Bowtech moves to release that stress.

Bowtech addresses the body as a whole unit rather than just the presenting symptoms. The physical, chemical, emotional and mental aspects of each person receiving Bowtech can all respond as needed.

Not understood by anyone except Rose, that is!

:rofl:

[Desertrose]

95. laugh on the floor all you want beamie...it works.

Lots of people get it and use it and find it makes a big difference in their physical well being.

Your opinion of Bowen and of me for that matter, really doesn't mean zip.

Good you are having an amusing day. Sounds like you needed a good laugh.

:evilgrin:

[beam me up scottie]

96. I'm reading their "scientific studies" right now!

Wow, this fixes EVERYTHING!!!

Herpes, migraines, bunions, restless legs, ADD/ADHD, colic in infants,
gynecological issues(PMS, difficulty conceiving, menopausal symptoms),
hiatus hernia, reflux, indigestion, constipation, diarrhea, asthma
and even some cardiovascular problems !

How could I have been so misinformed?
It must have been from listening to those stupid scientists again.
feh!
What do they know, right?

[Modem Butterfly]

108. Someone recommended it to me as a cure for lupus

!

[Desertrose]

126. Why not try it, its non-invasive and not uncomfortable...

and not expensive- at least in my area.

What would you really have to lose by trying it? Imagine if it actually helped... then you'd have to do a lot of rethinking of your rigid worldviews.

Of course if it didn't you could say I told you so and be no worse off than you are now.

Nevermind. Probably not for you.

[Desertrose]

82. Gee, if you think you can deduce from my posts, all these *claims*

you just made, then you definitely have more "faith" than facts .LOL

FWIW, I simply reply in kind to the skeptics posts..if you see it as a bash then maybe you need to see where its really coming from.

I don't really know what you are talking about when you say I have "faith". Faith about what? Thats makes no sense. You don't know me and to make these statements is just silly. Where is your "proof" of this? Sorry but you have none.

As far as your *proof* about anything, quite simply, I trust what I see, what I've experienced over a link to a study done by someone somewhere with a dozen other links to prove the opposite.

Personally attacked ? You shouldn't give yourself & your pals that much credit.

Oh no, not more parroting of that same old stuff about *true believers* and my *belief system* again. You just do not have enough information about that to make any claims at all. Pretty amusing to watch you try to spin this again though.

Threaten me? Too funny! You and your "proof" don't threaten me. How do you come up with this stuff? Its becoming clearer and clearer that you are the one always projecting your *issues* onto me.

Promoting my hatred of skeptics? sigh . Again, please see the preceding paragraph. Last sentence.

Now, since we've done this dance before, too many times to count as a matter of fact, and its clear we will never agree, I will let you get back to whatever you were doing. I must finish some things in my studio to be able to ship the order tomorrow. Have a good evening.

[beam me up scottie]

92. What I was doing? You mean laughing my ass off reading about Bowtech?

That will take a while!

Responding in kind?
Really ?
Which skeptic were you responding to in this post?

As for the persistent and relentless naysayers here, well some evidently just enjoy flames....obviously their choice, same way with the shutting down of any discussion that does not pass their definition of approved subjects.

Snarkiness without provocation.
Usually people who are threatened lash out like that.
I hear there are great homeopathic remedies for treating that condition.
You should look into it.

[HuckleB]

103. Alternative/complementary medicine isn't outside the realm of science...

either that, or it's not medicine but philosophy.

[noiretextatique]

73. funny that

considering not all traditional medical practices and treatments are
based on science either, but rather on profits.
take the dalkon shield, for example:

Evidence established that Robins had known its IUD was associated with a high rate of pelvic disease and septic abortion, that it had misled doctors about the device's safety, and that it had dropped or concealed studies on the device when the results were unfavorable.

See, e.g., Tetuan v. A.H. Robins Co., 738 P.2d 1210 (Kan. 1987).

[arwalden]

78. If It Was Anything More Than Quackery...

... it would already be mainstream. Yet it remains an "alternative" and "complementary" fringe treatment.

Why? Some big-pharma conspiracy?




<< Hundreds of studies in recent decades have produced strong evidence that it works for some conditions.>>

One word: PLACEBO.

Sometimes it works for "some" people, but other times it won't work for other people.

If it ACTUALLY WORKED and someone could DEMONSTRATE that it ACTUALLY WORKS, there would be NO CONTROVERSY about this at all.

[Tsiyu]

107. All I know is this

I worked in medicine for nine years. In that time, I saw more quackery performed by licensed MDs than I can name. I saw many people operated on needlessly to make $$$ for the docs. I saw 85 year old brain-and-body-dead people slapped on ventilators so docs could milk the last few $$$$$ out of their corpses, knowing full well the patients would die but lying to the familes about the prognosis. At one hospital, some doctors would actually come to the RT department and COUNT the ventilators - they are like ATM machines to some MD's - so that we had to post OUT OF ORDER signs on all but one ( always need one for trauma status).

Modern "scientific" medicine is full of cures that don't work, full of practitioners who don't care ( cept about $$$$) and full of case after case where a "scientifically formulated pharm product" inflicted harm or was useless to treat the illnesses they are prescribed for.

But the scientist lovers on DU have blind faith in all that is modern medicine. That is naivete in the first degree, but they are entitled to their naivete.

Still, it is ridiculous that these naive sorts turn around and project their own gullibility on others. As if.....

[Modem Butterfly]

113. What did you do about it?

You allege a number of legal and ethical lapses. What did you do about it? To whom did you complain? What were the resulting lawsuits? What did the state medical board say? Which physicians were disciplined, and in what manner? If these were public hospitals, what did he governing bodies say? What was the response from hospital administration? What did the malpractice insurance carrier say? What reception did you get from local media?

You claim to have intimate knowledge of several cases of outright abuse of medical authority. If you were so deeply involved as to know for a fact that doctors performed unnecessary surgery and lied about a patient's prognosis (to the point of DEATH), you must be a doctor or a nurse or otherwise competent to evaluate a patient's chart and care. After all, someone with no medical knowledge wouldn't know whether or not a surgery was actually unnecesary, would they? And you wouldn't be speaking out your ass about a thing like medical malpractice, would you?

So, what did you do about it?

[Tsiyu]

114. There really is no reason for your tone, but the questions are great

I was actually a licensed Respiratory Therapy Practitioner RPT, so yes, I did read charts all day long. Just as with homeopathy, human beings are free to choose to go to quacks if they like, free to agree to surgeries they don't need, and free to swallow pills their doctors prescribe even if they don't work.

Some of the things I did?

Well, putting the OUT of Order signs on the vents was one of those things ( if it was my turn). That way, we didn't end up tending seven vents pushing air into seven "should-be-allowed-to-die-in-peace" people and having only one vent if a bunch of folks came in ER and REALLY needed them.

Called up doctors in the middle of the night to explain that the meds and treatments ordered for pediatric patients would probably kill them, so "may I suggest xxx for this youngster because I refuse to administer what you've ordered?"

Talked more than a few patients out of surgeries they didn't need; even encouraged them to leave the hospital immediately if I knew their doctors were freaks. You would be amazed at the number of people who think a hospital is a prison and that they couldn't leave on their own!

Learned to grab an ambu bag out of a nurse's hands in less than five seconds, when they were blasting air into a preemies lungs as if the patient had the lungs of a twenty-year-old endurance runner. 20 times a minute no less! ( Hint to nurses: bag preemies and babies with gentle 60 times a minute light puffs so you don't blow out their lungs. Don't they teach this shit in nursing school????)


Cried my eyeballs out when we lost kids at our pediatric hospital because all the doctors and hospitals they'd been to over the last few years never thought to do the most simple tests to discover very curable or manageable diseases. We were the last resort, but often it was too late, and the entire staff would fume knowing that Acme Hospital never checked for Cystic Fibrosis in the two years a baby came to them with breathing difficulties. Encouraged parents to hold them accountable.

I could go on, but it's been years and I don't remember all I did, but I can tell you that it's hard to prove malpractice, and it is generally up to the patient to sue. Many people are reluctant to hold physicians accountable, especially if the doc is an old family friend or wealthy or well-connected with the hospital. There is no "dream world" hospital where a peon like me would do more than lose my job if I tried to instigate legal action. I saw some good people lose everything for daring to file complaints, and the docs just kept right on practicing. Maybe I'm a terrible person ( you always seem to think so by the tone of almost every goddamn post to me, MB, but so the fuck what??? Who the hell are you to be so hostile to me????? ) but I was young and I damn sure learned to work on the communicating with the patient aspect rather than the legal one, because I had kids to feed and I needed the job.

Then I submit for you: Vioxx

Can there be a more blatant example of $$$$$$ trumping good science?
What did YOU do about that, Oh Queen of Hostility?

[Modem Butterfly]

123. You're projecting a tone onto me that isn't there

human beings are free to choose to go to quacks if they like, free to agree to surgeries they don't need, and free to swallow pills their doctors prescribe even if they don't work.

Particularly if people who claim to have knowledge of deliberate malpractice don't do or say anything to keep people safe from those engaged in malpractice. Come on, ghost, now that you're not working directly for those hospitals anymore, why not share your knowledge and experience with the world? Or barring that, how about giving your fellow DUers a heads up about exactly which doctors and what hospitals actively support and condone malpractice?

Your post is full of a great deal of emotional heat, but very little light. You seem to want to make a lot of excuses for your complicity by impugning all medical professionals (and it was complicity, whether you like to admit it or not). But at the end of the day, you still have ample opportunity, and grounds, for blowing the whistle on these quacks. I have to wonder why you aren't doing that now?

You say that you were afraid to lose your job, and you claim to not be working with these hospitals anymore. So why aren't you saying anything now? Surely some of these alleged quacks are still working in the field. If you have such intimate knowledge of their malpractice and malfeasance, why aren't you, at a minimum, telling US about these hospitals? Surely there is an enterprising DUer somewhere with a position in the media and some ambition. If you're still afraid, you can PM me the specifics and I'll take the lead. But if you are aware of situations this egregious, you really should do more than say "Doctors suck! Homeopathy roolz!"

you always seem to think so by the tone of almost every goddamn post to me, MB, but so the fuck what??? Who the hell are you to be so hostile to me?????

I think you must have me confused with someone else. I don't recall ever having actually responded to anything you've posted before today. In fact, I only vaguely recall a couple of your posts. I'm afraid that you haven't really factored in my DU experience.

What did YOU do about that, Oh Queen of Hostility?

Again, I think you must have me confused with someone else. Unlike you, I haven't had evidence of malpractice and lax ethics dropped into my lap.

[Desertrose]

124. really? I'm not so sure about that....

You seem quite unwilling to consider that anything may have two sides.....made clear by your adamant position that alternative medicine has nothing worthwhile to offer.

"Doctors suck! Homeopathy roolz!"
Talk about putting words in someone's mouth. That's ALL you got from that post??

You know, it really takes a lot of nerve to question what BHG does or does not do about this. Do you really honestly think anyone at that hospital would listen without actual proof or evidence? You sure as hell don't. You need concrete evidence and yet you expect a hospital to take an ex-employees word for these rule violations??? You think calling these violations and malpractice to question could not possibly affect anyone's future job possibilities ?? Just what world do you live in?


BTW ..good try but anyone who's read some of your posts can detect your hostile attitude towards alternative med and those who say anything against corporate medicine, whether it was a post directed at them or not.

[Tsiyu]

128. Thanks for that

Some people ::yoiks:

[Modem Butterfly]

131. I guess some people will see what they want to see

Do you really honestly think anyone at that hospital would listen without actual proof or evidence?

That's just it: ghost claims to have reviewed the charts and known the doctors and patients involved. This is not a case of "I think Dr. X is a quack because he gave my friend chemotherapy but she had to have a double mastectomy anyway" this is a case of "Here's the doctor's name, here's the patient's name, here's the procedure, and here's where the chart indicates that the procedure isn't necessary,"

You need concrete evidence and yet you expect a hospital to take an ex-employees word for these rule violations???

An ex-employee on record as having been involved in the patient's treatment? Yes, I do. And if the hosptial doesn't, the hospital's malpractice insurance carrier and the state medical board will.

Ghost claims to have been a licensed respritory therapist. She wasn't mopping floors or answering the phones.

[Desertrose]

133. and isn't that the truth

An ex-employee on record with no tangible proof beyond his/her word? How is BHG supposed to obtain these records at this point? You think the hospital will just hand them over at his/her request? Like its that simple and straight forward?

Do you really think an ex LPR with no paper proof in hand could go up against an entire hospital??or malpractice insurance carrier?? or the state revue board? what if BHG wants to work in the medical field in the future? Think anyone would hire them knowing they are a "whistle blower"?

Since it is clear that your *faith* in the medical system is greater than mine, no more lectures to me about being a *true believer* please. You just keep your faith in modern medical science and I'll keep questioning things about it.




BTW-nice injection of the word "claims" to have been a licensed respritory(sic) therapist.

[Tsiyu]

136. You said it better than I could

And I appreciate it.

The real world isn't so cut-and-dried. MB wants me to jump through hoops to "prove" unequivocally that I witnessed malpractice. Apparently she's never heard of piss poor medical care, and she lives in a dream world where all doctors and hospitals are perfect and wonderful. She is trying to set up a situation where no one on DU can speak of what they've seen in the medical community without being accused of being "complicit." But I GUARANTEE there are other health care workers here who would say the same things I've said if they didn't fear being bashed by the holier-than -thou around here.

Fuck that. I became an RT because my twins were born 7 weeks prematurely and I was impressed with what the RTs did- they helped keep them alive. So I had - and have - a great deal of respect for medicine. But I'm not going to lie and pretend it's all about the patient care or the science. Anyone with half a brain on this board knows that.

There would be no way I could even remember names, dates or details at this late stage, and it would be a violation of medical ethics to give patient names and treatments on a public forum even if I DID remember them. But I know what I saw, and I did my damnedest to warn patients and to work behind the scenes to protect them.

It is sad when someone has such blind faith in anything that they refuse to see the truth or to say, "Yes, modern medicine does have it's share of quacks and thieves and scoundrels."

I will ALWAYS use alternative medicine. Those of us without health insurance have fewer options for one thing. But I also believe that there can be a compromise of alternative versus standard medical treatment IF the old-fashioned, establishment types like MB would open their minds to the perspective of others - who aren't as ignorant as it is so convenient for her to continually imply.

[Modem Butterfly]

139. An ex-employee with names and dates can still file complaints

But, as was made clear in ghost's last post, she doesn't even have that information because she vastly overstated her experiences.

Since it is clear that your *faith* in the medical system is greater than mine, no more lectures to me about being a *true believer* please.

Rosie, I've never lectured you on anything, let alone being a true believer.

nice injection of the word "claims" to have been a licensed respritory(sic) therapist.

Anyone on the internet can make any claim they like. I don't know anything about ghost except that she likes to make inflated claims that she later has to back away from. And you don't have to be a licensed anything to do that.

[Tsiyu]

135. You are so out of your league, it's sad

Pick on somebody else. Perhaps there are some small animals you can torture somewhere?

[Modem Butterfly]

140. "Perhaps there are some small animals you can torture somewhere?"

And that says everything we need to know about you.

[Tsiyu]

127. And why don't you tie yourself in knots

and try to do the macarena? You know goddamn well you were trying to imply I didn't have a clue, so why not own up instead of constructing some bullshit to make yourself sound superior? I'm so goddamn sick of some of the holier-than-thou types in this world who think they know every goddamn thing about every goddamn body. You don't know me, at least I hope you don't float around in my world, yet you come off in your reply to me as if you were just SURE I had no medical expertise whatsoever. What the fuck ever, Modem Butterfly. It's not necessary to be hostile to everyone who disagrees with you or who makes a valid point that proves something you don't want to hear. Get over yourself.

I DID not imply that all medical professionals were evil. Where the fuck did you get that? This thread was about crooks and quacks in homeopathy and I wanted to point out that they were also present in the mainstream medical community. Of course I met wonderful doctors and nurses. I couldn't have done it for nine years if it was completely evil.


Perhaps you aren't so good at reading more deeply than literally, but get this: YOU are talking out of your ass about something you know nothing about.

Much of the malpractice I saw was done by other hospitals and we got to see the end result. Many general hospitals don't have pediatric equipment, for example, and they fuck up a lot of kids trying to intubate with adult scopes and endotracheal tubes. Do you really expect me to remember which hospitals sent kids to us after they realized they couldn't handle them? Do you really think that 16 years after leaving the field i would even remember the doctor's names?

I think I did the best I could, and I did more than most.

I don't have to be a goddamn malpractice attorney with hundreds of convictions under my belt to speak about what I've witnessed. But hey, if the truth hurts, you deserve the pain.

[Modem Butterfly]

132. Hmmmm....

Bizarre, irrelevant spittle-flecked ranting from Buddyhollysghost snipped.

This thread was about crooks and quacks in homeopathy

Actually, this thread was about how homeopahty is one part of alternative medicine, and doesn't define the whole.

Much of the malpractice I saw was done by other hospitals and we got to see the end result.

How enlightening. You weren't involved in the treatment, didn't work at the hospital, didn't work with the doctor and weren't present for the initial diagnosis. You are second guessing the standard of care at these hospitals to the point of alleging malpractice, yet you weren't there and weren't privy to any of the thought processes behind any of those decisions.

Basically, you have set yourself up as an armchair MD. And an armchair malpractice attorney. This is no different than second-guessing pro-football coaches at the watercooler at work.

Let's review your previous post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&forum=104&topic_id=4464369&mesg_id=4471561

In that time, I saw more quackery performed by licensed MDs than I can name. I saw many people operated on needlessly to make $$$ for the docs. I saw 85 year old brain-and-body-dead people slapped on ventilators so docs could milk the last few $$$$$ out of their corpses, knowing full well the patients would die but lying to the familes about the prognosis.

Now, contrast this with your latest post:

Much of the malpractice I saw was done by other hospitals and we got to see the end result.

Hmmm... So I guess you didn't actually see "more quackery performed by licensed MDs than I can name", first hand, but rather formulated an opinion after the fact based on what you thought might have happened.

Yikes.

I think I see why you've gotten so emotional about this.

[Tsiyu]

134. Whatever MB

I said "much of the malpractice" was from other hospitals, because much of it was. I also witnessed it firsthand where I worked. The two statements are not mutually exclusive.

I pointed out the "much" situation to illustrate the difficulty in persuing legal action against them, so quit twisting my words around to fit your own agenda. If you honestly believe this shit never happens, you are delusional. And if you think that 16 years after leaving the field I could honestly remember or take any legal action against anyone, you REALLY live in a dream world.

And no, I will not name the hospitals because there are a great many good doctors and nurses in those hospitals and I refuse to condemn them all.

Word to the wise: ALWAYS get a second or third opinion, educate yourself about your disease and medications and any alternative therapies and if someone like MB comes along with blind faith in all that is "science" run like hell.

[Tsiyu]

115. Now we let the issue drop?

Isn't that funny......

[Ian David]

117. I think it's the skeptics who "get it."

The problem is the "defenders" that lump them together, or are afraid that if they stop clinging to every single whacked-out ephemeral talisman, that they will somehow be conceding that all the rest is bunk.

Some alternative medicine is good.

Some is bad.

Homeopathy is stupid.