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HardWorkingDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-05 01:22 AM
Original message
So Sick of Repugs saying service people "volunteered"....
I was in the service and not only did I "volunteer" once, but I also "volunteered" for a hazardous duty as well. While in the service, supervisors were fond of saying things like, "you have no room to bitch, you volunteered TWICE."

I am so sick of the pro-war crowd saying people have "volunteered" for war. That is bullshit. Yes, they signed up, but didn't expect a lying commander in chief to send them to an war of choice (especially after he himself stated the Vietnam war was a political war).

Besides, if these people all volunteered so willingly, why do "stop-loss" rules exist?
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-05 01:30 AM
Response to Original message
1. Yup, it's extremely misleading/disingenuous.
Edited on Sat Aug-27-05 01:35 AM by Hissyspit
Not to mention arrogant, insensitive, ill-informed and hypocritical.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-05 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I think of my affluent GOP friend
who bribed her son with a race car and college, when he thought about "volunteering" so he wouldn't go.

Most of the kids volunteering needed work and education and felt the service was a way to obtain that goal. They didn't realize they'd be called to fight an insane war to advance the cause of corporate globalists.
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-05 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. You should post that story as a separate post, Erika, if you have not
already.
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mduffy31 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-05 01:40 AM
Response to Original message
3. Maher
I think that Bill Maher puts it best, these guys "volunteered" for paintball 1 weekend a month and 2 weeks a year, not 6 months in Fallujah.
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tulsakatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-05 05:51 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. hypocrisy
He and Michael Moore have also pointed out that it is the height of hypocrisy that these guys ended up fighting a war in a foreign country and when Bush was in the guard, he didn't even show up for much of his time and he didn't even have to fight a war!!

Yes, these guys volunteered but that doesn't mean they knew that they would be expected to fight a major war!
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HardWorkingDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-05 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. Yes, and on Maher's show Gov Huckabee...
used the phrase these soliders volunteered. If anything, instead of giving idiotic rationales that people "volunteered" the person next to the idiot that says "volunteered" should point out the sacrifice of these wonderful people for volunteering and that their lives should not be put into harms way over reasons Bush has given for Iraq.

I know when I was in the service and I asked what people were there for the number one answer was a secure job and the number two answer was for college money. Now, I'm not saying it is naive for someone who joins the military to not think there is a chance for war, but dammit, after Vietnam you'd think our "leaders" would not let such a thing happen again.
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stevietheman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #14
24. "Stop loss" turned them into slaves, not volunteers. n/t
n/t
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DarkmoonIkonoklast Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-05 02:58 AM
Response to Original message
4. Not all who serve are slaves... [Rant Warning]
... but all who serve in Shrub's little dick-whipping exercise were and are betrayed. :mad:

{WARNING: the following tirade ain't gonna be pretty! If brutal truth offends you, skip the following post. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!}

Let me make myself clear. First, I'm a vet. Marines, 1967 through 1969.

Right.
soundtrack: "VietNam Fixin' To Die Rag" :hippie: :smoke:
by Country Joe and The Fish

We weren't all draftees, believe it. I enlisted, and it was NOT one of those "sign up before I get drafted" deals, either. The cold, hard, sick truth is, many of us, perhaps the majority of us, signed up out of a sincere belief that we were standing between our beloved homes and families, and the horror of war. We believed that there were people in the world whose only intent was the destruction of those whom we loved and cherished. We believed that there were people in the world who would not, could not, be dissuaded from that destruction by any means short of physical annihilation.

Most important, we believed that there were people in the world who understood the truth of this brutality far better than we did, people who knew far more of the truth than we did OR COULD, and we trusted that, when they told us of the brutality, of the intentions, of the Viet Cong, that they were giving us the unvarnished truth.

We believed that someone had to physically get between these brutes, and the objects of their brutality.

Believing these things, we could not but fight in the defense of our loved ones back home.

If we were lied to (and we were), if we were fighting an immoral war for spurious reasons (and we were), the fact of OUR intent could not, and should not have been, denigrated as it eventually was.

We who fought, thought AND BELIEVED that we were there for the only truly right reason; the only truly just cause: the proper defense of others. We did our job to the best of our ability.

Those who stayed behind, who discovered the lies of the politicians who sent us into harm's way, did THEIR jobs by exposing those lies and mobilizing the civilian population to remove the faithless leaders and end that unjust war. Sadly, far too many of those brave civilians were reviled for their courage in exposing the betrayals by our leaders.

Equally sadly, too many of those who did expose the leaders, took out their rage on us, whose only wrong was to fight what we believed to be a just war, against a brutal foe. We were told that there is no such thing as "Just War", by the same people who told us that there was no such thing as "Justified Violence'. "Violence never solves anything" we were told. Much like condemning the person who, catching a child molester in the act, acts swiftly (and violently) to stop the assault, maiming, perhaps killing, the assailant but saving the life (and perhaps, the sanity) of the poor innocent victim.

I wonder how many of those mothers whose children were brutalized and butchered in Auschwitz, in Buchenvald, in Atlanta, would have hesitated to kill, if the alternative was to witness the slaughter, the brutalization, of their own baby.

Were there brutes in our ranks? Of course there were. My Lai was only one example of far too many heinous deeds committed "in the name of our loved ones back home", with only underlings like Lieutenant Cally and Captain Medina taking the rap for their superiors who actually GAVE those orders.

Guess what? This little exercise in Oval Office masturbation is very much like Nam. Again, we were consistently lied to by leaders whom we mistakenly trusted to know what the reality was in the Middle East. We were lied to and told that going to war was necessary to prevent "the Terrorists" from commiting atrocities in the town square. We were lied to and led to believe that those horrific images from downtown Manhattan, playing in our living rooms, would soon be playing live, and in living, bleeding stench-o-rama, in our own town streets.

We had the mantra "Support Our Troops" rammed down our collective throats, along with the lie that, by questioning the justification by which our kids were sent to die, we were undermining them and their brave efforts.

Sadly, shamefully, when people tried to tell the truth about the alleged WMDs, or about the alleged links between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein, they were shouted down and condemned as traitors by the very people whose experiences 40 years ago SHOULD have taught us better. When people tried to reveal the truth about the real connections between Saudi petroSheiks and American petrobarons (ArAmCo!), between war profiteers at (among too many others) Halliburton, and those at the very highest levels of government, they, too, were shouted down and condemned as traitors by the very people whose experiences 40 years ago SHOULD have taught them better.

I expected no better from the Right Wing. I expected little better from the Conservative Mainstream. I DID expect FAR more for the so-called Progressives, especially those who lived through Nam as I did. Since when (I asked many of my own "fellow travelers") did we start trusting the government not to lie? When did it become acceptible to trust Big Busine$$ to act against its own $elf intere$t$? Was it the same time it became acceptible to trust the Police to protect us? Funny, I never got either memorandum.

So now we have kids -- our children, our grandkids -- who were never told those truths which we so painfully, so bloodily, learned more than 4 decades ago. They trusted, as we trusted. They volunteered, as we volunteered. Our best and brightest believed, as we believed, that there could be no higher calling, no nobler service, than to place their frail young flesh between THEIR beloved homes and families and the horror of war.

Their insufficiently-armored frail young flesh.

Meanwhile, we have the sheer naked effrontery to stand righteously by and point accusing fingers at execs and pols who acted absolutely and predictably according to their natures (no betrayal there!), while we failed to implement, to pass on and pass down those blood-soaked lessons from from our best and brightest years. It was those of us who KNEW BETTER and did NOT act on our knowledge who really failed those poor suffering bastards in uniform; who have betrayed our children.

Pissed off yet? I am. :mad:
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-05 05:47 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Welcome to DU; welcome back; and thanks for your service
And thank you for making several good points, especially acknowledging the patriotism of many enlistees and the good intentions of those who came to oppose the Vietnam war because of the lies and the senseless slaughter. There were wrongs committed on both sides, and this country still has not healed from the totality of that misbegotten war.

And here we are again ... doomed to repeat what we tried to forget, instead of learning from it.

The difference for me was that in the 60's I was for a long time too young and unformed to be able to believe that my government was misleading its citizens; it took me until 1967 and the run-up to the 1968 election to really get it, and then I worked on the McCarthy campaign.

THIS time around I am a LOT older (you and I must be close to the same age ;-)) and I've been against Bush and his war from the get-go. Judging from the sheer number of people who marched against the invasion of Iraq and worked for peace candidates, I have a lot of company. I volunteer with the VFP and there's a great deal of effort to educate people about the distinction between supporting the troops and supporting the policies that send them off to kill and die in our names. Troops don't set national policy, and troops don't have freedom of speech -- it is up to us to mindfully speak for them.

The young ages (19, 20!) on the crosses at Arlington West about break my heart. My own son and daughter are older than that. They both thought of enlisting in the weeks after 9-11; they're good kids who want to protect and defend this nation. Given that Bush/Rove/Cheney et al. have betrayed the trust of others like them, I am eternally grateful they decided to wait and see.

Some of us in this country really did learn from the Vietnam war, and really do remember. I'm just sorrier than I can say that the Bushfolk regime never learned a damn thing, not a damn thing.

Hekate

#Why won't the Chickenhawk cross the road?"
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DarkmoonIkonoklast Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-28-05 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. Where were you in '69?
With all the caca about "the return of Hanoi Jane". and all the paranoia about being seen as a traitor for questioning shrub's little circle jerk, there are times when I wonder if anyone really "gets it" these days... I fear the rise of a new contender for the mantle of "Tailgunner Joe", while hearing in the back of my head the ominous sounds of goosestepping footfalls... :mad:

:yourock: I thank the Lady for such as you! There were too damn few like you around when I mustered out at El Toro in the fall of '69... at least today's soldiers are spared the opprobrium with which we were greeted upon our return... :hug:

Sometimes at night I can still smell the rotten eggs in my hair... :cry:
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-28-05 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. I went back to my home state of Hawaii & stayed another 11 years
So I guess the short answer is that at the end of 1968 I tried to run away from national political issues like race and the war that seemed far too big for me to have any impact on. It all felt too nuts.

My parents had to move to Calif the year I graduated from Kailua High School, 1965, so I started college on the Mainland. In my young mind, no one in Hawaii would have either caused or perpetrated the Watts Riots, which happened not long after we got to SoCal. The national state of mind didn't improve much for many years after that... I became politically active during that time, and that has stayed with me. The shock of Bobby Kennedy's assassination (coming on the heels of Rev. MLK's) was far worse than McCarthy's loss of the Calif primary, but by that time my papers were in to transfer to UH, so at the end of the summer of 1968 I went back home. At LAX I saw a planeload of young people arrive from Chicago wearing black armbands.

Thanks for your kind words, but it's a pretty ordinary story -- at a certain point I looked back and wondered whether I had done the right thing after all, as I was as much running from the troubles of the Mainland states as I was running to my home. But Hawaii is a real place with real problems of its own after all, and I involved myself with what presented itself to me there. Everything we do ends up being part of who we are now, so by the time I returned to Calif at the end of the 70s I was a quiet but persistant activist for what I believe in.

I stayed away from veterans' issues until the run-up to the invasion of Iraq, when I was invited to join the local VFP because of my peace activism. Being involved with a veterans group does have a way of making one keenly aware of the issues facing vets. A lot of the guys are about my age and therefore Vietnam War vets, though there are also Korean War, Cold War, and WW II vets as well. Watching the older ones process what it means to oppose your government in wartime, and then doing it, has been touching beyond words. Tabling with these folks has taught me how to greet the occasional soul who wanders by still carrying the weight of that awful time: Welcome home, and thanks for your service. I keep learning all the time the lessons I was too young to absorb back when.

Like I said, an ordinary enough story. See you around DU :hug: and I know The Lady is glad you lived through the madness and returned. I know I am.

Hekate

#Why won't the Chickenhawk cross the road?#
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Pobeka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-28-05 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #4
19. Please - will you re-submit this as a new thread? I want to nominate it.
You may have thought it was a rant, but it spells it out so clearly.

If I could nominate an individual post for greatest page, I'd do it right now.

Thank you for serving, and for bringing your thoughts here.
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-05 03:29 AM
Response to Original message
5. Stop loss. Enough said.
Edited on Sat Aug-27-05 03:31 AM by me b zola
Okay, i've got more to say. Many people serve for different reasons. For the poor it is a way to make a living, give health care to their children, and receive an education.

In the past, it has been Honorable to serve in uniform. It is a wonderful thing to take the oath to protect & defend the Constitution against all enemies....

I used to dream that my my oldest granddaughter would be the first female SEAL, or the first female submariner. Now, I don't see how I could encourage her to serve. The military has been taken over by a bunch of chicken-hawks that have not the first bit of respect for the military----and continue to send our military on illegal missions on a quest to fatten the pockets of the world's most evil pirates.

FUGWB!!! :grr:
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DarkmoonIkonoklast Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-05 04:20 AM
Response to Original message
6. this former Marine sez:
Edited on Sat Aug-27-05 04:22 AM by DarkmoonIkonoklast
... in the oath of enlistment, one swears to defend the nation against "all enemies, Foreign and Domestic"...

guess which usurper Commander-in-Thief (and his band of traitors) this might define...

IMPEACH BUSH!


COURT-MARTIAL BUSH!


Hey, I'm easy! :)
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-05 04:34 AM
Response to Original message
7. kick
:kick:
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ngGale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-05 04:55 AM
Response to Original message
8. Kick ...
:kick:
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Tim4319 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-05 05:50 AM
Response to Original message
10. What is so funny about that!
The commercials and advertisements you see about joining the armed forces talk about education, seeing the world, learning a trade, help pay for college, etc... It say's nothing about going to war! I understand that that may be a possibility. And, if you are going to be sent to war, it is going to be because there were no other options. War should be the last resort. For someone to say that other people volunteered for war is a foolish statement, unless they know someone personally.

Then, to paint someone into a corner, by implementing "Stop Loss", doesn't sound too voluntary to me!
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-05 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
13. my son volunteered....
So he could go to college and ultimately end up being a SWAT cop.

He did not sign up to go to a war based on lies.
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AnnInLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-05 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. exactly....and I imagine that many of today's soldiers volunteered
when they thought there were WMDs trained on the US, and that there was a connection between 9/11 and Iraq. If any of my 3 children wanted to volunteer now, I would shoot them in the toe myself.
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-28-05 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. A lot of those people joined up during Clinton
when the military was used responsibly, by "grown-ups". The enrollment is way down, who would want to be dragged into a shit deal dreamed up by george bush?
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-05 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
15. But that's how they "support the troops"
cavalier motherfuckers
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julialnyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-05 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
17. "Your Son Volunteered...He Knew What He Was Getting Into"
http://www.vaiw.org/vet/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1842&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

"Your Son Volunteered...He Knew What He Was Getting Into"

By Lietta Ruger and Arthur Ruger
Daily Kos, August 21, 2005

Time for me to share my pride in my husband, Arthur Ruger, who kept our group updated the week I was at Camp Casey in Crawford, Texas.

His diary on Daily Kos captures another element of the discussion to the tired 'your son volunteered, he knew what he was getting into' ....

Arthur, himself a veteran of Vietnam era wrote a passionate diary this morning that quickly was recommended to front page.

Proud of my husband, doing his part here to speak out in the name of a veteran and support for Cindy continues....feel free to carry it forward, post it amongst your own networking; it is part of the discussion and dialogue.

Lietta Ruger


"Your Son Volunteered. He Knew What He Was Getting Into ..."

Aug 19th, 2005 By Arthur Ruger, Dailykos.com

So did I ... in 1968 five months after the Tet offensive. I dropped out of college and enlisted.

And like the current volunteers who are described by worn-out conservative flag-wearers, I had a rough idea of what I was getting into. That "rough idea" was based on trust ... trust in a system and, ultimately, trust in a specific leader and a specific governing political party.

The specific leader of course was LBJ, the specific party was the Democratic Party and the specific system was and is the system that allows us to hang our political opinions on buttons and sanctimonious drapery of stars and stripes from which we belch our prejudices.

When you sign up you endorse a contract on the bottom line. It's a contract with specified written obligations on the part of both parties, but also with unspecified but powerful assumptions on the part of both parties.

In the case of joining the military knowing what you are getting into is based on very powerful unwritten but nationally accepted assumptions:

much much more at link......
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-28-05 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
21. Especially (but not only) for National Guard who joined right after 9-11.
The idea of LIHOP/MIHOP for 9-11 followed by the ruthless exploitation of the surge in enlistments, to pursue a war for oil, really... disgusts.. beyond words.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
23. Should use "volunteers" with the respect they deserve
If someone volunteers for hazardous duty, it seems the responsible and respectful thing to do is use them gently and properly, NOT send them to invade a country with no good reason and not good enough equipment to be safe and not enough care when they return home. Fuck this "they volunteered" bs, I am really really tired of this. Forgetting even the stop-loss stuff, you need to treat volunteers with the respect they deserve and Mr.bush just doesn't give enough of a shit about them to do so.
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kbm8795 Donating Member (337 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
25. You are absolutely right!
And moreover, how many National Guards personnel joined with the idea that they would be sent overseas indefinitely?
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