Please, tell the CS tour that the NOW part is a mistake

[preciousdove]

The media is spinning that as "cut and run" making Cindy and company sound unreasonable and irresponsible. I explained it to my Mom but like millions of others she does not read the internet and doesn't know that that is not what Cindy and most followers mean and I didn't have the printouts with me to prove it.

They need to drop NOW now before the momentum is lost because the message got mangled.

[rodeodance]

1. kartrina is on and on and on most talk today. but just turnned it on. Has

there been coverage today?

[proud2BlibKansan]

2. Cindy's messgae is not the least bit unreasonable

We shouldn't have invaded Iraq in the first place. So yes we do need to get out NOW.

[preciousdove]

5. OK prove it without using info from the internet n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. There were no WMDs

There is no connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda.

Too many of lour soldiers have died in a needless war.

[preciousdove]

15. Cindy's message, Cindy's message, Cindy's message

I totally support her. I totally oppose the war.

What does this answer have to do with the original post or my answer to your first reply?

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. I guess I don't understand what you want here n/t

[Webster Green]

3. Anyone who relies on Tee-Vee news will be left in the dust...

We are the media now. They are merely running to catch up.

[rodeodance]

4. of course, but I want to know what they are saying.

[preciousdove]

7. My fondest wish but that isn't reality either n/t

[Webster Green]

10. The cable news ratings are horrible....

and anyone still watching Faux News is hopeless. I've seen great coverage of Cindy on the network and local news lately.

The internets have allowed us to do an end-run around the BushCo corporate media. They have been forced to go online to see what's really happening.

Sometimes when you spin something in the wrong direction for too long, it comes un-wound!

[preciousdove]

17. A college student posted that his polysci prof never heard of DSM

We are kidding ourselves if we think that most people get their message from the internet. Daily newspapers and TV still are the only sources for many people.

The "Now" part is the problem. We all need to remember the pull out of Vietnam, the slaughter and older people do remember and think the "Now" part is unreasonable and may not support her and we need that support. That that is why I am trying to communicate what I feel is vital. Please drop the "Now" from the tour. It is self defeating.

[Garbo 2004]

26. I recall the pull out of Nam after 10+ years of US involvement and a peace

accord signed by the US: http://vietnam.vassar.edu/doc16.html

What are you suggesting..."staying the course" as we were told for years we should do in Viet Nam? Countless lives would have been saved had we pulled out of Viet Nam years earlier. Prolonging the war did no good, although it was profitable for the war profiteers.

How many more years of this incompetently run occupation and "reconstruction" of Iraq will be enough? I recall Wolfowitz saying we'd only be there 3 months (an obvious crock of shit even then) and it's now been over two years. This same Administration that has bungled the occupation/reconstruction and have succeeded in fueling the insurgency will suddenly manage to pull a rabbit out of the hat and magically somehow make it all good? How many more lives will be lost before it will be "seemly" enough to leave Iraq to the Iraqis?

From Larry Johnson's "Why We Must Leave Iraq:"

Staying the course and enduring further casualties while the insurgency grows stronger is an insane policy. If we persist on that front we will end up strengthening the hand of Islamic extremists and their role within the Iraqi insurgency.

Our choice is simple - either we invest in the military resources and personnel required to defeat the Sunni insurgents and allow the Shia and Kurds to consolidate power or we withdraw and let the Shia, Sunni, and Kurds find their own solution. We cannot ask our soldiers and Marines to give their lives and sacrifice their bodies for a new Islamic state. It is true that our withdrawal will create a major vacuum and damage our prestige. But the alternative, i.e., that we stay and try to train up sufficient Iraqi forces and help the fledgling Islamic Government get on its feet, will leave us the favorite target of insurgents and terrorists. And after we have shed the blood of our sons and daughters in trying to create a new government that will be controlled by Islamists, those Islamists will ultimately insist that we leave Iraq and no longer meddle in their affairs.

Rosy scenario does not live in Iraq. Until we come to grips with this truth American soldiers will continue to be killed and maimed for no good reason.
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/082605D.shtml

[preciousdove]

30. Straw man bait. Out is the answer. When is the problem.

Do people get brownie points from someone for taking discussions off course? Do others get points for giving lip service to ideas?

Lets have peace on earth now. No more starvation now. No more crime now. Okay lets log off and have a beer and log on say our little chants again tomorrow. Is that all we are about on DU?

[Garbo 2004]

33. Straw man bait? You brought up the pull out of Viet Nam. And as I

remember (presumably I'm one of those "older people" you refer to) it wasn't some sudden cut and run. And staying as long as we did accomplished nothing except more death and damage to the Vietnamese and our own.

So what is your solution for "when" and "how?" given the fact that it's this administration and they're not even competent imperialists? They actually had a chance to do reconstruction and help. They bungled it so badly it most likely is irretrievable as long as they are involved. Eventually they'll pull out, likely with the same "peace with honor" as they did in Viet Nam. Viet Nam went Communist and Iraq it seems will be an Islamic state.

No, of course the troops won't be pulled out "now." But the increasing dissatisfaction with the Administration's handling of Bush's discretionary war and its consequences as evidenced in the polls is having an impact. Not just among "leftists" and the proverbial "peaceniks" but mainstream America. The 2006 elections are coming up and then there's 2008. Iraq has become an albatross and all politics are local.

From a recent NYT article:

Republicans said a convergence of events - including the protests inspired by the mother of a slain American soldier outside Mr. Bush's ranch in Texas, the missed deadline to draft an Iraqi Constitution and the spike in casualties among reservists - was creating what they said could be a significant and lasting shift in public attitude against the war.

The Republicans described that shift as particularly worrisome, occurring 14 months before the midterm elections. As further evidence, they pointed to a special election in Ohio two weeks ago, where a Democratic marine veteran from Iraq who criticized the invasion decision came close to winning in a district that should have easily produced a Republican victory.

"There is just no enthusiasm for this war," said Representative John J. Duncan Jr., a Tennessee Republican who opposes the war. "Nobody is happy about it. It certainly is not going to help Republican candidates, I can tell you that much."

...Representative Walter B. Jones, a North Carolina Republican who initially supported the war but has begun calling for a pullout, said, "If your poll numbers are dropping over an issue, and this issue being the war, than obviously there is a message there - no question about it." http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=11659&fcategory_desc=Under%20Reported

Recall that Jones was the "freedom fries" guy who recently co-sponsored a resolution with Ron Paul (R-Tex.), Neil Abercrombie (D-Hawaii) and Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio) calling for plans for a pull out of troops from Iraq.

When Republican Reps are calling for a pull out from Iraq and the polls show the public increasingly wants out of Iraq, it doesn't appear to me that Cindy Sheehan is all that out of sync with the mainstream.

[SammyWinstonJack]

6. So bush** cut and ran from Afghanistan to he could bring the

*terrarists* to Iraq and that's acceptable to them? He should have stayed in Afghanistan and FINISHED THE JOB THERE! Do any of these people have a brain?

[preciousdove]

8. Post not about Bush about Cindy's message n/t

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

11. If not now, when?

We were told that Saddam was a threat with ties to Al Queda and we had to get rid of him because he had WMD's that threatened our security.

Well, now our mission is complete, because Saddam is gone, there are no WMD's (and there never were) and Saddam had no ties to A.Q. and wasn't harboring terrorists.

Mission accomplished...we need to get our military men and women out of harm's way.

Now. MKJ

[jonnyblitz]

12. damn . short, sweet, to the point. I agree.

:thumbsup:

Bring them him YESTERDAY!

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

13. Thanks, and I like your "bring them home yesterday!" slogan.

That's the way to deliver our talking points...the more we're pushed to retract or compromise, the further we take the original argument!

:hi: MKJ

[DearAbby]

14. Mission accomplished?....Bring them home!

NOW!

[sandnsea]

16. She means NOW

I wish she would have focused on the war lies and strategy failures, and forced this country to face the reality of this war. Instead, she either chose or allowed it to get framed as "end the war now" protests. So, once again, it's peace protestors against the rest of the country and we all know where that ends up.

[preciousdove]

19. If that is so, never mind and to the rest of you Santa will be here soon.

It started out so well.

[elehhhhna]

22. How many more dead americans do you find agreeable?

[preciousdove]

31. If message fails opportunity to end it soon is lost many, many more dead

In answer to your question none but I can do nothing but report how the message is playing in middle America and why it is failing to reach even lifelong Demcorats.

[SidDithers]

18. What's wrong with bringing them home NOW?...

why is that a mistake?

Sid

[preciousdove]

29. For the same reasons none of us can pick up and move now.

Logistics, safety, paperwork. If they evacuated Iraq this minute how would you get everyone out and where would you send them?

Not ignoring you, I had visitors stop by for a couple hours.

[SidDithers]

20. Kick - 'Cause the OP still hasn't shown why...

bringing the troops home NOW would be a bad idea.

Sid

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

41. Kicking along with you, I've responded several times to the OP and

nothing.

MKJ

[tlsmith1963]

23. Even I Don't Think...

...that they should just come home tomorrow. I think we have an obligation to at least clean up the mess we made of their country. But I *do* think the war has to end soon. It was built on lies, so we have no business remaining there.

Tammy

[Cocoa]

24. Sheehan shouldn't worry too much about the media

if she worried too much about how people would spin her, she probably wouldn't be there in the first place.

[SidDithers]

25. Kicking again - 'Cause the OP still hasn't told us ...

why bringing the troops home NOW is a bad idea.

OP... where are you?

Sid

[katinmn]

27. No, I agree they must come home NOW

Staying will just continue to feed the insurgency.

Besides, what makes you think George is going to start making good decisions all of a sudden? He ignored military experts when he invaded and has continued to ignore all the experts to this day.

if it were anyone else, there might be another the solution but the only answer in THIS situation is to just bring our troops home.

I will never cave on that resolve eityer. Just so you know.

[preciousdove]

32. Again, "now" is impossible and the message will be dismissed.

"Bring them Home Tour" perfect. You want to do rallies when they say "when" and everyone yells "now" perfect but the "Now" part in the tour name is a grave mistake.

This matters to me and I hate to see all the progress fade because of a faulty message and it will if they say "Now".:cry:

The other posters are taking my simple request based on observation and gut instinct and 55 years of living and making it into almost anything else.

[Garbo 2004]

34. August USA Today/CNN Gallup Poll: 56% say some or all troops out now.

#9: 23% withdraw some troops now, 33% withdraw all troops now.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/polls/2005-08-08-august-poll.htm

Rasmussen shows 39% for US pulling its troops out now, 46% against and 15% not sure. http://www.rasmussenreports.com/2005/Perspectives%20on%20Iraq_August%2021.htm

And an older poll:

June 27, 2005
How's That Legacy Looking?

The WSJ online (subscription only) offers this interesting graphic assessment of the trend on support for withdrawal, damn the consequences:

THE LATEST HARRIS POLL indicates American views are shifting with regard to U.S. troops in Iraq . Since October 2003, Harris has asked "Do you favor keeping a large number of U.S. troops in Iraq until there is a stable government there or bringing most of our troops home in the next year?" The telephone poll from June 7-12, 2005, shows a clear 63% majority now favors bringing troops home in the next year, the highest percentage since Harris began asking the question. http://www.justinlogan.com/justinlogancom/2005/06/hows_that_legac.html

And if, as it appears increasingly likely, Iraq becomes an Islamic fundmentalist state, how popular will that be for Americans to die for?

Unless you are being so literal minded that you believe anyone seriously thinks the troops will be pulled out in a matter of a few days, weeks or even months, these numbers should be heartening.

Cindy Sheehan simply doesn't want any more troops to die in Iraq as her son did. Of course she will say "out of Iraq now." Let others argue logistics and timetables. But clearly she's not so alone in wanting the troops out of Iraq ASAP. And "ASAP" for a significant percentage of Americans increasingly appears to mean "sooner rather than later."

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

42. Nice job, Garbo 2004.

A somewhat late, but very sincere, thanks for your post reminding all of us that Cindy's message resonates with the majority in our country. MKJ

[katinmn]

36. How about: "Bring the troops home pretty please?"

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

38. LOL n/t

:rofl: MKJ

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

37. Again, I ask, if not now, when? Everything we were told we needed to do

to be "successful" has been done.

So, when?

We actually should have left long before now, however, Halliburton had oil fields to secure.

We are way past the time when we should have left. We have become the "houseguests" from hell.

BTW, I'll bet if you asked the troops out there doing their third or fourth rotation when a good time for them to come home would be..I'm guessing, it would be now.

I'm sorry at your disappointment that perhaps our message should be, "Let's stay on indefinitely".

MKJ

I rarely pull out the veteran card, but as a veteran with friends there, as well as a supervisor of several employees with family there...I think leaving now is the best of "nothing but worst-case" scenarios. MKJ

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

40. LOL, I am not witnessing the "dismissing" that you describe.

Of course, I spent time in Crawford at CC1. Looked for you preciousdove, were you there?...and the idea is that we are not waiting around for some other BS timeline to be established...

Otherwise, we'll never leave.

So, Now it is and Now it stays. MKJ

[A-Schwarzenegger]

28. She needs you to advise her.

[SlowDownFast]

35. Funny. You forgot the sarcasm emotocon, though.

[salin]

39. then again without NOW or Soon or at least "When?"

bushco gets a pass - as they say they are in favor of bringing the troops home "as soon as possible" - just that this can mean 25 years depending upon who is defining "possible."

[preciousdove]

43. Can see now that this has become a religion

Any constructive criticism is taken as blaspheme and the heretic must be destroyed, Ok a little over dramatic, but you see what I am getting at.

I am not going to debate the War or Bush because we have no quarrel and you would know that if you read what I have said here.

A trip to Texas in this heat would literally kill me if you want details PM me I won't belabor it here. I am not going to be apologetic for what I cannot do.

I don't sit online waiting for replies to my posts. Do people really do that?

Just as only 5 of us tried to tell Senator Wellstone that he and the Democrats had to protest the illegal Florida and Texas electors in 2000 I feel that this message is THAT important and that 'NOW' is just as big a mistake. Living with life threatening illnesses makes prioritizing importance a matter of life and death and I feel that strongly about this. I support Cindy, I support bringing the troops home ASAP. THE MESSAGE (not the intended message) IS FLAWED AND WILL FAIL. I have a right and a duty to say this.

We are preaching to the choir admirably but we aren't even a blip on the radar of people in power. They are on their way into Iran as we speak. We have been in the majority for the last 5 years and have only seen things go from bad to worse and until our votes are counted this evil will continue. No matter how "right" we are or how many of us there are.

Flame away, I have to move on. The moment has passed.

[Garbo 2004]

44. And Cindy also has a right to say what she wants in her own words.

Write/email her and the tour's sponsoring groups http://bringthemhomenowtour.org/article.php?list=type&type=9 rather than arguing with us if you feel that strongly about it.

And in her own words posted Saturday Aug 27:

"In taking Camp Casey to Congress we are creating problems for the very people who voted to give George the authority to invade an innocent country and cause the deaths of so many people. We will eventually target every Congress person, pro-peace and anti-peace alike, Republican and Democrat, and ask them the same questions we are asking the president. Except with Congress, we are going to add one more thing: Since there is no Noble Cause, you need to develop a speedy exit strategy and bring our troops home as soon as humanly possible.'" http://www.truthout.org/cindy.shtml