What exactly would be wrong with a free Cuba?

[CubsFan1982]

I'm having trouble understanding why a free and democratic Cuba is anathema to so many people here. Why is a Communist dictatorship so much better than democracy?

[Maple]

1. Stop picking on tiny countries

that are no threat to you, and none of your business.

Democracy may be a value to you...it isn't to others.

So work on your own problems.

[jsamuel]

why are you all over communists today?

just wondering

do want us to hate them?

do you want us to fear them?

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

5. Invade DU!

NOW!

[BlueEyedSon]

6. And I sure as hell would prefer democracy over whatever we have here

in the US these days.....

[beetbox]

69. Whatever we have here?

read my sig line.

:toast:

[eridani]

27. I prefer not fucking over small countries, myself

None of our business how they govern themselves. Though I'll admit that if I were forced to live somewhere in the Central America, Cuba would come in second. Costa Rica would be first. Democracy and no army.

[Mika]

2. Its not

Here are some of the major parties in Cuba. The union parties hold the majority of seats in the Assembly.

http://www.gksoft.com/govt/en/cu.html

* Partido Comunista de Cuba (PCC) {Communist Party of Cuba}
* Partido Demócrata Cristiano de Cuba (PDC) {Christian Democratic Party of Cuba} - Oswaldo Paya's Catholic party
* Partido Solidaridad Democrática (PSD) {Democratic Solidarity Party}
* Partido Social Revolucionario Democrático Cubano {Cuban Social Revolutionary Democratic Party}
* Coordinadora Social Demócrata de Cuba (CSDC) {Social Democratic Coordination of Cuba}
* Unión Liberal Cubana {Cuban Liberal Union}

Plenty of info on this long thread,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=6300&forum=DCForumID70


http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.

--

Representative Fidel Castro was elected to the National Assembly as a representative of District #7 Santiago de Cuba.
He is one of the elected 607 representatives in the Cuban National Assembly. It is from that body that the head of state is nominated and then elected. Raul Castro, Carlos Large, and Ricardo Alarcon and others were among the nominated last year. President Castro has been elected to that position since 1976.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/do/Dorticos.html

Dorticós Torrado, Osvaldo

1919–83, president of Cuba (1959–76). A prosperous lawyer, he participated in Fidel Castro’s revolutionary movement and was imprisoned (1958). He escaped and fled to Mexico, returning to Cuba after Castro’s triumph (1959). As minister of laws (1959) he helped to formulate Cuban policies. He was appointed president in 1959. Intelligent and competent, he wielded considerable influence. In 1976 the Cuban government was reorganized, and Castro assumed the title of president; Dorticós was named a member of the council of state.

The Cuban government was reorganized (approved by popular vote) into a variant parliamentary system in 1976.

You can read a short version of the Cuban system here,
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.html

Or a long and detailed version here,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books



____


Before the 1959 revolution

75% of rural dwellings were huts made from palm trees.

More than 50% had no toilets of any kind.

85% had no inside running water.

91% had no electricity.

There was only 1 doctor per 2,000 people in rural areas.

More than one-third of the rural population had intestinal parasites.

Only 4% of Cuban peasants ate meat regularly; only 1% ate fish, less than 2% eggs, 3% bread, 11% milk; none ate green vegetables.

The average annual income among peasants was $91 (1956), less than 1/3 of the national income per person.

45% of the rural population was illiterate; 44% had never attended a school.

25% of the labor force was chronically unemployed.

1 million people were illiterate ( in a population of about 5.5 million).

27% of urban children, not to speak of 61% of rural children, were not attending school.

Racial discrimination was widespread.

The public school system had deteriorated badly.

Corruption was endemic; anyone could be bought, from a Supreme Court judge to a cop.

Police brutality and torture were common.

___



After the 1959 revolution

“It is in some sense almost an anti-model,” according to Eric Swanson, the programme manager for the Bank’s Development Data Group, which compiled the WDI, a tome of almost 400 pages covering scores of economic, social, and environmental indicators.

Indeed, Cuba is living proof in many ways that the Bank’s dictum that economic growth is a pre-condition for improving the lives of the poor is over-stated, if not, downright wrong.

-

It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

“Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

Indeed, in Ritzen’s own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990. That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

“Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

“Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

The question that these statistics pose, of course, is whether the Cuban experience can be replicated. The answer given here is probably not.

“What does it, is the incredible dedication,” according to Wayne Smith, who was head of the US Interests Section in Havana in the late 1970s and early 1980s and has travelled to the island many times since.

No one can say with any credibility that universal education and universal health care is forced on Cubans. Castro didn't give it to them. They worked hard to create the infrastructure and systems that they felt were essential for any progressive system.

Cubans wanted universal health care for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, and organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to create a fair and complete h-c system. Cubans wanted universal education for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to create a complete and world class ed system, and they have it. Cubans want to assist the world's poor with doctors and educators, instead of gun ship diplomacy.. and that is what they have done WITH their government, not at odds with their government.

Can Americans make this claim about their own country? I'm afraid not.


Cubans want normalization between the US and Cuba, and they have thrown their doors open to us, but, it is our US government that prevents what the majority of Americans want their government to do - normalize relations. Worse yet, the US government forbids and has criminalized travel to Cuba by Americans - something that Cuba hasn't done.



Viva Cuba!

[bemildred]

13. Now now Mika, you'll make his head explode. nt

[Guy Fawkes]

41. So why do more Cubans live in Florida then Cuba...

if Cuba is so great?

[Mika]

74. HUH?

There are more Cubans in Florida? Hahahahahahahahaha

Check your stats.

13,000,000+ live in Cuba

1/13 +- of that live in the US.

[Guy Fawkes]

87. Stats.

Cuban population: 11,141,997 (July 2000 est.)
Florida Cuban population: 833,120

So while I admit that I was wrong, the total number of cubans in america (as registered immogrants) totals over 1 million.

[The Magistrate]

4. It Is Not, Sir

But the Communist dictator here replaced a murderous fascist dictator, merely the latest in a long string since independence from Spain, and his regime has seen certain improvements in the lives of the mass of people on the island, contrasted to previous periods in its misrule. Democratic rule has never been on the table there; the question has been whether an authoritarian ruler will simply superintend the shipping out of goods and capital to the U.S., or utilize the organs of the state to improve health and diet and schooling for its inhabitants in some degree....

[BlueEyedSon]

7. Infant mortally is much lower in Cuba than here (for example), IIRC

[CubsFan1982]

9. So that excuses authoritarianism.

Not in my book. Why can't Cuba be free and have a high standard of living?

[BlueEyedSon]

11. Why can't we?

For argument's sake, wouldn't a benevolent dictator be better than social-darwinistic corporatism/protofascism?

[bowens43]

23. What makes you think they want Castro gone?

What makes you think that the US should have the right to interfere?

[The Magistrate]

28. Let Us Try The Mirror, Sir

Does "democracy" lessen the suffering occassioned by a high rate of infant mortality?

[NewJeffCT]

64. just to play devil's advocate

Not saying I disagree with you, and I'm in no way for interfering with Cuba at all, but while Cuba has a better infant mortality rate than the US ... plenty of nations in Europe have better infant mortality rates than Cuba. http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Infant_Mortality_Rate_aall.htm
or http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html

Personally, I think the way to deal with Cuba is to stop any sort of embargo or whatever with them. Let anybody travel there or do business there, if they so choose. If we can do that with Vietnam & China, why not Cuba? In 25 years, China has moved 300 million out of poverty due to their more open economy.

[The Magistrate]

82. We Would Seem To Be On About The Same Page, Sir

A government may secure benefits to its citizenry, or operate to the detriment of a great proportion of its citizenry, regardless of its constituted form. Castro's Cuba is hardly my idea of a utopia, but it does, on certain basic measures, seem better run than most of its immediate neighbors. This comes, clearly, with a certain cost in restriction of political and artistic freedom, and these are things not to my own taste. But most of the misrule in the neighborhood comes with similar accompaniment, and with less benfit.

[On the Road]

88. What on Earth Does "Free" Have to Do with "High Standard of Living?

I assume by "free" you mean "elected." How do elections guarantee either civil rights or a high standard of living? In practice, they generally result in a tyranny of the majority and of the economic elite.

Without Castro, Cuba would be another banana republic, ruled by a few wealthy families who allow the rest of the population neither rights, freedom, or wealth. And if an elected leader starts bucking the US, they get knocked off and replaced by a dictator. It's been true for 200 years. Haiti is the latest victim. Most Latin American countries have been victims of this policy at least once.

Cuba is as poor as it is largely because of the US economic blockade, a policy which the last pope described as "genocide". Without that, it would be a moderately prosperous socialist country.

[CubsFan1982]

8. Why isn't democracy on the table?

Why are we excusing authoritarianism in Cuba?

[Maple]

10. It's not your table

[Mika]

12. Same reason you are ignoring the actuality of Cuba NOW.

The Cuban government was reorganized (approved by popular vote) into a variant parliamentary system in 1976.

You can read a short version of the Cuban system here,
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.html

Or a long and detailed version here,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Blue_Tires]

30. wow....flame much??

i know the cubs lost again tonight, but don't take it out on DU (by my count, you've posted at least 3 inflammatory and combatative threads tonight)...

if you want to vent, go to the MLB boards

[CubsFan1982]

37. I'm trying to understand the philosophy here.

I'm trying to challenge the perception that Castro and Chavez are selfless individuals who have done nothing but good things for their countries. That's not true, and no one seems to want to acknowledge that.

[Spider Jerusalem]

No one's claimed that either of them...

are perfect, noble, benevolent philospher-kings or anything of the sort. It seems that what you're trying to do is get people to agree with your POV that they're bad, wrong, nasty, evil swine who are incapable of doing anything positive and who ought to be disowned by everyone here; you seem incapable of realising that the truth is somewhere in the middle. And "talking out of your Communist-loving ass"? Real understanding you're going for there. No wonder you're still confused. :eyes:

[Swamp Rat]

83. Straw Man

:D Good luck! :hi:

[The Magistrate]

89. One Thing Worth Bearing In Mind, Sir

Is that countries are composed of various social and economic strata, and it is quite possible, indeed sometimes necessary, to adopt policies that dis-favor some such groups to bring benefit to others. Those that are so disfavored can be expected to complain. In both these countries, rather small groups have been disfavored to increase the standard of living, and even political power, of large groups that previously were disfavored to the advantage odf those smaller groups.

"The laboring people are necessarily the most numerous portion of society, and it is nonesense to maintain that what is beneficial to the greatest number is damaging to the whole."

[Mika]

33. Here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4478123&mesg_id=4478211

You insults and personal attacks don't serve any reasoned discussion (not that you are able to do that re: Cuba NOW).

[Iris]

20. Unless you are trying to make a point about Bush's war in Iraq,

I don't see what you are trying to get at here.

I don't think anyone is dying because of authoritarianism in Cuba. And, as one poster mentioned, in fact, they have a low infant mortality rate and another poster mentioned the efforts to provide proper food, medical care, and education to all people there. What is the problem with that?

[Lars39]

31. That doesn't make as nice a flame-war, though.

:popcorn:

[Iris]

39. you're right. Silly me!

Let's all fight amongst ourselves so the freeps can laugh at us.

[Lars39]

I think we're witnessing a dying comet. :^)

[lvx35]

22. Are you talking about military intervention?

If so I disagree. Its another country, one that does not threaten us. Like many Dems, I believe in using the military only when the country threatens us or our allies...Unless your saying that we should condemn them verbally without military intervention, then I agree. I'm proud of Dems like Carter for doing just that:
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/americas/05/14/carter.cuba/

[Spider Jerusalem]

24. Who is this "we" you keep talking about?

There is no "we". There is not one monolithic point of view, nor is there only one opinion on the subject.

And what, exactly, would YOU advocate? Invasion and "regime change"? Do you think democracy so superior that you would spread it by force if need be? That's worked SO well in Iraq, after all...

[CubsFan1982]

49. Who said anything about force?

I've said what I would prefer. Fund democratic dissident groups to bring about a change in government.

[Spider Jerusalem]

59. Just out of curiosity...

how would you feel about, say, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia using its money to subvert and influence the political process in the United States through similar means? Positive? Negative? Neutral? And why?

[CubsFan1982]

77. Saudi Arabia is an authoritarian regime.

Therefore, I would view interference as a negative.

[Spider Jerusalem]

85. Nice double standard there.

Are you so BLIND that you can't grasp the principle here? Intervention in the internal politics of a sovereign nation is not a good thing, and is always going to have unintended consequences (you'd know this if you knew anything of history, which you apparently don't).

To illustrate the point, suppose it were the UK interfering in US politics instead, then. Another democracy. Does that make it better? Hm?

[bowens43]

35. Why shouldn't the people of Cuba be free to chose

their own form of government? You seem to be saying that we should cram freedom down their throats just like the idiot has tried to do to Iraq.

Castro is very popular in Cuba. The Revolution was a popular uprising.
You seem to think that everyone everywhere has to emulate the US.

[The Magistrate]

38. Why, Sir, Is Authoritarianism Excused In A Wide Variety Of Places?

Why was the authoritarianinsm of Chilean and Argentine and Brazilian generals excused throughout most of the period of Castro's rule? Why is the authoritarianism of Gen. Musharef, of Mubarek, and an exhaustive list of others ruling today in various places excused, or tolerated, or what have you?

[Horse with no Name]

52. Why is "OUR" supposed form of government

the only one that is acceptable to you?
And who is deemed suitable to deliver it?
Bush? Oh please.
They have tackled and beaten some serious odds in infant mortality as well as education and healthcare, while our good old Democracy has taken away Medicaid from the poor, Medicare from the elderly, food stamps for the hungry, and higher education for many. Our country is currently illegally occupying another country--killing our citizens as well as theirs, while systematically destroying the environment. Our middle class is disappearing...the poor are getting poorer and the rich are getting richer.
Now tell me again what your argument is?

[CubsFan1982]

57. Liberal democracy is the best form of government.

How George Bush practices it is of no relevance. How the Founding Fathers practiced and intended it is what I want to see in all nations.

[Spazito]

66. How arrogant of you, yet not at all surprising

The arrogance of your comment mirrors your president, well done!

[Spider Jerusalem]

79. Wow.

Arrogance and ignorance, all rolled into one.

Why should every country on the planet practise the American form of democracy? The European parliamentary model, and the British Westminster system, both seem to work better than the American version. And those vaunted Founding Fathers weren't particularly democratic (unless you want to spread the rule of white land-owning males across the planet, that is).

[CubsFan1982]

84. Last time I checked...

The Westminster system was a form of liberal democracy. It doesn't matter to me whether that system is Westminster, parliamentary, presidential, or whatever, so long as it is liberal democracy.

And perhaps the Founding Fathers weren't the most democratic people in the world, but I'd prefer the end result of what they started to what Lenin and Stalin brought about.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CubsFan1982]

100. So you would prefer the Soviet Union at its worst to the 2005 US.

Because that's the comparison that's on the table. I would take, with all its faults, 2005 America.

[Mika]

109. I saw NO SUCH comparison - your are getting delusional & ridiculous

That's a pretty big table you've got, with a lot of issues on it. Hope the legs don't break.

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IChing]

110. I take it then if you use that form of logic you want Dred Scott

and the mason dixon line to be back in force. That is of course is the failure of your logic in your attack. Your denial of the political reality of the system that you are living in.
Fix it here, fix it locally don't go attacking windmills.

[tkmorris]

21. Bingo

As usual, The Magistrate nails it.

CubsFan, most of us do not support a communist govt vs. a democratic one per se, we merely recognize that Castro is not the evil minion of Satan he is propagandized to be here in the US. Castro actually has done a great deal of good for the people of Cuba in very measurable ways.

[bribri16]

96. Thank you Mr. Magistrate. You articulate so much better than

i could.

[Blue_Tires]

14. why start a new thread?

the fidel thread you started is still on the first page

[FlemingsGhost]

15. When we get our own house in order, then look at the neighbors

Freedom. Democracy.

Big words, that mean so little when its dictated to others. Let folks free themselves.

[bemildred]

16. Cuba is free. That's the point. nt

[eallen]

45. Free? By what definition?

I told a freeper I know that I would believe that Iraq was free, when dissidents there could blaspheme the Prophet and curse the Koran without fear of prosecution. I don't believe the freeper lie that Iraq is on a path to freedom. And I don't believe the lie from the other side, that Cuba is free, so long as political dissidents are imprisoned.

[bemildred]

67. Free == Independent, not a colony or satrapy. nt

[eallen]

91. Ah, yes. "Freedom," as it is used by the Lost Cause.

In the American south, we were taught that the Confederate states lost their freedom to the north, in the War Between the States, sometimes styled the War of Northern Aggression. And that is a valid sense of "freedom," if one's chief concern is whether one's immediate government is free from the constraint of some other, distant government. Even now, the rhetoric of the Lost Cause plays an important role in Red State ideology.

If your chief political concern is the freedom of individuals, things look quite different. Union victory in the American Civil War saw the rebirth of American civil rights, with a new focus on the individual, and a subsequent political movement still important to our rights today.

It's hard to see how things will play out in Cuba. My hope is that there is a natural and internal liberalization, when Castro dies. I like that word: liberalization. I don't see why it should be wrong to hope for a free Cuba. Free, in the sense of "civil liberty," not merely "independent."

:hippie:

[bemildred]

104. You clearly don't know shit about Cuba.

Have some Kool-Aid.

[bowens43]

18. It's none of our fucking business.

Ok? The people of Cuba a long history of revolutions, hell they threw the US out. If they wanted Castro gone, he would be gone.

[not systems]

19. Do you want to attack Cuba and install a democracy?

Or do you want to subvert it by supporting internal
dissent and planting the seeds of strife by making covert
and quite terrorist acts?

Are you a hard imperialist or a soft one?

[CubsFan1982]

32. I'd prefer the latter.

Because, as a liberal, I am in favor of people determining their own future, rather than have it determined for them. It should be the obligation of this country to support democratic forces wherever they are.

[not systems]

40. Do you think China should be able to fund "dissent" in the US?

If not why not?

Don't you think that you have a very supremacist double standard?

[Selatius]

46. Ultimately, the US cannot fight everybody's battles for them

Freedom can only come by choice of the people. The US can offer aid and support whenever it may decide to, but ultimately, the people must fight their own battles.

[not systems]

55. I believe we are in agreement here.

I support self determination for all and hope that
all will eventually chose true freedom.

I have this hope for the my country but what passes for
freedom here is farther and farther from my ideals.

[CubsFan1982]

53. Not in the slightest.

Democracy is a vitalizing, beneficial force. Communism is the exact opposite. I see no double standard at all. Of course I believe democracy is superior to communism. What is beyond me is why so many here do not believe that.

[not systems]

65. Don't you think that advocating the...

infiltration and subversion of another society
and crying foul when it resists is bit of a moral
obtuse position to take?

That seems to be what you are doing.

[CubsFan1982]

78. When it is a repressive society, no. n/t

[not systems]

92. So the Soviet Union had the right to over throw the US...

because it was a vicious segregationist state?

Don't you think that Democracy as an imperialist ideology
that you are advocating has many similarities to imperialist
Communism under Stalin?

Both seemed to justify intervention in other peoples lands
to further their obviously correct goals.

I think that you are very much like these Communists that you
hate and fear and that maybe that is why you hate and fear them.

When you point the finger three point back at you.

I believe you are advocating an evil ideology professing
an universal truth in a world where no truth can be universal
and all things are situational.

[CubsFan1982]

102. Democracy is an evil ideology???

I think I'm done with you.

[not systems]

111. As you advocate it yes it is...

democracy that comes from the people is great.

When forced on people by external intervention
and invasion I think it is an evil fraud.

I believe you don't know what democracy is and what you advocate
is actually nationalism and imperialism.

[billbuckhead]

114. Communism and democracy aren't neccessarily in conflict

Furthermore, America is not and was never intended to be a democracy. America was intended from day one to be a pro corporate state tempered by federalism. Ask John Hancock, Bennie Franklin and Alexander Hamilton.

[bowens43]

43. They did determine their own future.

We have no such obligation. To say we do is neo-con bullshit. It is not the United States place to determine the form of government that other nations should have.

[FlemingsGhost]

48. CubsFan will be a Republican by age 35, guaranteed

Mark my words, Cubsfan. The fact that you describe yourself as a liberal, (at what ... age 20?) will make you shudder, someday.

If you don't die on a dusty Middle Eastern oil field, first.

[CubsFan1982]

62. If not supporting authoritarian regimes makes me a Republican...

And if wanting to see democracy in Cuba makes me a Republican, then I guess I'm a Republican.

[not systems]

70. Glad you have found yourself. n/t

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[not systems]

94. I'm not a member and you have a chip the size of...

an elephant on your shoulder.

Did the commies kill your mommy?

[CubsFan1982]

105. No, but they killed tens of millions of others.

And that's reason enough for me.

[manic expression]

112. Oh,

so those "Reds" in Cuba killed "tens of millions"?????? :rofl:

I don't recall the US exactly being ambassadors of peace when we INVADED the island after the revolution (which has helped the people in so many ways, mind you). If you are equating Stalinist Russia and Maoist China with Cuba, you are hopeless.

[CubsFan1982]

115. A Communist is a Communist.

The location, really, is irrelevant. They all endorse the same ideology and the same tactics.

[not systems]

117. How many did the reds kill this year?

How many last?

What about the year before that?

News flash: Your imperialistic Democracy is the greatest
killer of Innocent people on the planet the last three years.

It also has more people in jail than any other country and
is considered the greatest threat to world peace by huge
numbers of people polled in the countries that are our closest
allies.

I think your militaristic notions of democracy are an evil ideology
that threaten the very freedoms that have made this a great nation
in the past.

[FlemingsGhost]

80. Actually, it makes you a victim of propaganda.

It's your unwavering love for "democracy and freedom," (or your skewed perception of what that means,) and the instinct to shove it down everybody's throat, for their own good, of course, that makes you a Republican.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FlemingsGhost]

90. Whooosh .... right over your head.

Further proof, folks.

[CubsFan1982]

106. Did it occur to you that those concepts are not property of the right wing

You've officially proven yourself to me that you would honest to God prefer authoritarian Communism to democracy. I truly cannot understand that.

[manic expression]

118. There is no authoritarianism in Cuba

PERIOD. The government represents the people better than the system in America. There are no corporations running the country, it costs NO MONEY to run for public office, there are NUMEROUS political parties (even though NO political party can actually hold office). This is all ignoring the stellar record of food, housing, education, health care and other things which are provided for the people, all in spite of endless sanctions against the island nation.

By the way, I haven't seen you back up your pitiful and foolish claims with anything remotely resembling an argument thus far on this thread.

[Selatius]

107. The thing is you are confusing socialism with authoritarianism

One is an economic system. The other is a political decision-making system. An authoritarian system of governance is not necessarily synonymous with a socialist economic system, not if the people themselves are allowed to run the means of production and the resources all need to survive in a democratic manner. In the Soviet Union, a small clique of people, who won power by force at the expense of democracy, owned the means of production and the resources and did with it whatever they wanted despite the wishes of ordinary people.

[Lars39]

63. lol

:spray:

[Mika]

50. That is exactly what Cubans are doing now

Cubans have proven time and again that they are very capable of overthrowing any government they chose to - including bloodsoaked US backed ones (Batista, for example, was backed by the US gov as well as US organized crime).



-Most Cubans loyal to homeland-
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ019.html

[scarletwoman]

103. "It should be the obligation of this country to support democratic forces"

WOW, so you're really big on the whole "white man's burden" thing, aren't you.

The fact is, the United States has NEVER supported "democratic forces" ANYWHERE. The United States has over and over again subverted and destroyed the self-determination of other nations all over the world.

Here, read this for the TRUTH about the U.S. foreign policy:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4462293

On Latin America:

"Prime concern is the protection of our raw materials. We have 50% of the worlds wealth but only 6% of its population, we must maintain this disparity to the extent possible, by force if necessary, putting aside vague and idealistic slogans such as human rights, raising of living standards, democratization, preferring police states if needed over democracies that might be to liberal and to indulgent to communists, the latter has lost any substantial meaning in US political rhetoric, referring simply to anyone who stands in our way."

"The primary threat to the US in Latin America is the trend towards nationalistic regimes that respond to popular demand for improvement in low living standards and production for domestic needs. That's not acceptable because the US is committed to encouraging a climate inductive to private investment, in particular guaranties for opportunity to earn and in the case of foreign capital to repatriate a reasonable return."

"We must therefore oppose what is regularly called ultra nationalism in secret documents, that means efforts to pursue domestic needs. We must foster exports or (...) production in the interests of US investors. It is recognized such programs have very little appeal to the Latin American public. So the conclusion is that we must therefore gain control over the military which can in turn control domestic opposition and overthrow civilian governments if necessary."

sw

[BlueEyedSon]

25. Go start your own version of PNAC, with bringing freedom & democracy to

latin america as the main thrust?

[El Supremo]

26. As long as it would'nt revert to a Batista regime.

Then you got my vote.

[Selatius]

29. Democratic socialism is favorable to authoritarian socialism

Personally, I favor an even more libertarian form of socialism than one you could get with state democratic socialists, nevermind undemocratic state socialists.

[jim3775]

34. I want you to answer this CubsFan since you might not see it in the lounge

My first post was:

"We get it, communism is bad."

Your reply was:

"So why are you defending it?

Why is Communism preferable to a liberal democracy?"

So please answer my reply:

"When did I defend communism?

Please, since you know better than I do, indicate where I defended communist dictatorships.

Aslo, please tell me when I wrote that a communist dictatorship is preferable to democracy.

My memory must be failing me because I don't remember writing anything even close to that."

[jim3775]

61. No answer huh?

I'm serious. You accused me of supporting communism which is something I vehemently deny.

[CubsFan1982]

68. I mistyped, and I apologize for the slur.

And I'll correct it. My intended response is why are DUers defending and supporting communism?

[jim3775]

71. Thank you for the apology.

I apologize for sounding like a dick in my reply.

[FredScuttle]

116. Apologize and repeat the slur

Rinse and repeat....

Please provide your evidence of "DUers defending and supporting communism" unless you're equating an objection to imperialist meddling in soverign nations' affairs as being a defense of communism.

[ret5hd]

36. well, i guess i'll give you one serious answer...

the entire premise of your question is (purposefully or not) biased and twisted. no one says that a free and democratic cuba is not something to be desired. i think you know that, but i will leave that for another dicussion.

to get into this REAL deeply would be much easier in a verbal discussion rather than typed, but...

1)the history of cuba, batista, etc, indeed, the entire carribean/central american region and the u.s. involvement there suggests that what YOU call a free and democratic cuba is NOT in the cards...nicaragua/el salvador/haiti/guatemala/ etc etc etc ...IF IT IS FORCED FROM WITHOUT.

2)of all the countries mentioned above (and others) the life of the average person is much better in cuba. if you don't believe me, go look. if you can't look, read.

3)despite repeated demonstrations of the fact (given by some much more skilled-and less tired- than me, many here refuse to even acknowledge the FACT that cuba has elections, and independant political parties, and will in all likelyhood will develop over time into a free-er society...in fact, it already has! i know i know, they jail "dissidents"...well, they do ones that receive training and funds from outside the country, JUST LIKE WE HAVE LAWS AGAINST FOREIGN COUNTRIES INTERFERING IN OUR ELECTORAL PROCESS ALSO!

4) the main thing i have against interfering in cuba is returning it to the same GANGSTER THIEVES that ran it in the past, and who spread most of the disinformation about the current conditions there, and are eagerly awaiting the chance to sink their vile diseased claws into the flesh of a largely happy people.

[XanaDUer]

42. Like that loon Mas Canosa.

Ugh.

[roody]

44. Go visit Cuba!

Go see for yourself! Since your democratic (USA) country prohibits you to visit Cuba and see for yourself, you will have to buy a ticket to Mexico, then go on to Cuba. Be careful---you may LOVE Cuba!

[Malikshah]

47. Why all these threads on Cuba all of sudden? Has Fidel

jumped past Kim and Bashar while I wasn't watching??

I'm gonna start lookin for the Elian threads next...

[ret5hd]

51. because the counter-protetors in crawford...

finally got their wireless network up. it took so long because they use a windows server because everyone knows linux is COMMUNIST!

[jonnyblitz]

56. LMFAO...

i just spewed coke all over my computer screen! :crazy:

[Spazito]

72. The Cubs lost and somebody seems pissed, lol

Sadly, they decided to take it out on DU, Cuba and Venezuela.

[mike_c]

54. do you know anything about Cuban history...?

Please don't interpret that as an insulting comment-- it's meant as a legitimate question. Surely you can't believe that Batista's capitalist rule was better for Cubans than the revolutionary government that replaced it has been? Cuba has a higher literacy rate than the U.S., a lower infant mortality rate, first rate-- and universally available-- health care for all citizens, and a government that is in many ways more of a participatory democracy that our own. Nearly EVERYONE votes, and important social issues are nearly always decided by referendum rather than by a ruling elite or by corporations and their marketing arms.

Cuba is not perfect, but it should be a powerful model for caribbean and central american nations-- in spite of a brutal economic embargo that has lasted for half a century, it has prospered in many of the ways that matter most, and it has remained true to its own revolutionary vision. If you think that's the result of iron fisted eastern european style soviet dictatorship, you're largely incorrect.

[bribri16]

101. Right now, Cuba is a great model for Iraq. Bet most of them would

give anything to live under a dictator like Cuba.

[roody]

58. Bush has Cuba in his sights.

You can read the complete plan to "democratize" Cuba on the State Department website. It looks a lot like the "plan" to do in Iraq, including forcing genetically modified seeds on them.

[Cocoa]

60. was Battista's Cuba "free?"

[ret5hd]

76. why yes, it was...

the soft, loving, benevolent arms of organized crime cradled the peacefull people of cuba like a child, and this child, seeing that these benevolent arms were indeed benevolent, willingly allowed these figures to lead them.

until that evil fidel (actually, some believe, the anti-christ, or alternatively, satan) single handedly wrecked the peacefull equilibrium of the island.

[pnorman]

73. considering all those

Batista supporters in Florida, our State Dep't, and elewhere, licking their lips in anticipation, WHAT makes you think they're planning on a "free democratic" nation? Think Pinochet and all those other murderous thugs that we put in power.

pnorman

[Jim Sagle]

75. I dunno...what would be wrong with a free America?

When the USA starts having real elections again, maybe I'll start ranting about Red Cuba. Until then, I won't give a fuck...and I'll be mighty damn suspicious of those Americans who do.

[TheFarseer]

93. There's nothing wrong with democratic Cuba

but how are you going to do that? Invade them, bomb them and kill half of them in the process. Yes, they would certainly be better off that way. :sarcasm: I have come to believe that if the people of a certain country don't like their government, they have to get rid of them. We can't do it for them. It won't work. What if in 1776 the French came in a kicked out the British and said, hooray, you guys are free. Go be free now! We wouldn't have had nearly the same sense of national pride. We wouldn't have had the same sense of purpose in writing our constitution and setting up our country. The Iraqis aren't going to have a sense of pride and purpose in how they got democracy - IF it somehow works out that way.

So what am I saying? If Cuba wants Castro gone, then God bless them, but THEY have to do it - not us.

[madrchsod]

95. every democrat in rockford

secretly wants to be a republican and be invited to speak at the rockford institute. nice job on the post demorepub!

[deadparrot]

97. There are different ways to achieve a "free and democratic" Cuba.

From what I've read, Cuba seems to educate their children (primary education) substantially better than in the rest of Latin America. Furthermore, they provide free health care, etc. You've heard all of it before.

Meanwhile, we have to try and reconcile it with a nasty human rights record. Homosexuals, or those putting up any sort of resistance, are persecuted. The government has the power to restrict freedom of speech, the press, assembly, etc. The number of people killed by Castro's people goes into the thousands.

Thing is...it happens everywhere. Look at Central and South America. Look at Africa. Look at Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and some parts of Asia.

Human rights are extremely important to me, as a political junkie. I'll continue to support groups who look out for every human being on this planet. But there is a question, I think, of priority. Cuba doesn't pose the biggest threat to the biggest number of people, and it seems that there's a good chance when Castro dies, so will Communism in Cuba. It's up to the people of that country. Money can only go so far; there's a lot more to changing the entire structure of your government for the past half-century.

[Lefty48197]

99. Then we'd have to go looking for somebody else to embargo

and President Dipsh*t would probably pick Venezuela and end their oil shipments.

[manic expression]

108. What an ignorant perception!

Cuba IS free. Free of American domination. Free of political repression. Free of inequity, of unnecessary poverty, of elitism. Free to represent its people's ideas.

You are woefully mistaken. It is NOT a dictatorship, it is a socialist country which is run by the people and is for the people. Sounds like democracy to me.

Read up.

[Moderator]

119. Locking

This has become a flame-war.