Sending in the Nat'l Guard to evacuate New Orleans would be useless.

[Silverhair]

What could the Guard do?

New Orleans is SURROUNDED by water and swamp. There are only a TOTAL of about 24 to 30 lanes that connect the city with the rest of the country. ALL of the major routes I-10 (both sides of the city), the causeway over lake Ponchartrain, I-55, and that's about it. All of those routes go over bridges that are miles long.

The problem is NOT a lack of vehicles. Look at the huge traffic jams and tell me that you need to add the some Nat'l Guard trucks to it. Barely creeping at 3 mph? What good would that do?

The problem is a lack of roads out. Does anybody expect the N G to be able to build a bride over 20 miles long in one day?

All sending in the NG would do would be to get a lot of them killed and a lot of equipment lost that would be needed for rescue work after the storm.

[hlthe2b]

1. Umm, C-1 transports with all city buses enlisted...

flying to nearest metro locations with shelters? Just a thought....

[NYC]

2. And yesterday?

?

[Bluebear]

3. Maybe the appearance in the streets of someone in charge?

[Silverhair]

5. Local police.

The problem is traffic congestion caused by a lack of routes out.

Your idea does not address that problem.

[shraby]

4. Airlift out with helicopters. The army also

has big trucks they could fill with people. What's the matter with the government???? Many of these people could be saved beforehand.

[bluedog]

7. was going to say the trucks

could have been used.guardsmen could have helped the older people and the parents with children out....come on.thats what the guard is for..sorry but this pisses me off.the guard is there to protect the states....not to go and fight in a war of lies..

[Silverhair]

12. Have you seen pictures of the traffic congestion?

So you want to put some people in the backs of NG trucks and put them in 3mph traffic so they can get hit by the storm on one of the causeways??

Great way to kill some old folks. The only thing that can be done is to find shelters inside New Orleans.

[Silverhair]

9. So you add trucks to the traffic congestion??? How does that help?

Helicopters have to be evacuated well before the storm or they would be destroyed on the ground by the storm. Then they would not be available for rescue work.

A hurricane just doesn't give much warning time.

BTW - It isn't in the news much, but other areas besides New Orleans are also evacuating. If the hurricane makes a last minute twitch in it's course, then it hits Biloxi, MS, with only NO warning. So nearby cities have to clear out too. We are talking about the evacuation of an entire area with a few million people.

[iamjoy]

13. But Trucks Hold Lots Of People

Each car only holds a few.

Plus, the trucks would be for people who have no transportation, but live in an evacuation zone.

[Silverhair]

16. So you end up with trucks AND cars on the roads.

The results are MORE vehicles on the road. So your trucks get caught on the causeway. More dead folks.

[Selatius]

10. There's not enough time to organize an airlift of that caliber

There's got to be tens of thousands in that city still who have no way out. It would take scores of transport aircraft to pull them out, and a good number of those are in Iraq.

[Silverhair]

14. Even if they were all available and in Louisanna, still can't be done.

Some people here don't understand what is involved. They seem to think that a copter or a big plane is like driving the family car.

[Cleita]

15. If Dumbya had put together a plan two days ago, it could have

been done. For sure, it's too late now.

[Silverhair]

31. How can the Republicans build a 27 mile long bridge in one day?

That is what would be needed. And that bridge would need lots of access ramps in New Orleans and about 20 lanes.

You really don't understand the situation.

[Cleita]

17. If they had started two days ago they could have done it

in relays even with only a small fleet of copters. They can't do it now though and save everyone. It might be worth an effort to get the children out with one parent. Save some of them anyway. I'm so afraid that those people left behind are going to drown.

[Silverhair]

20. What would you have done when...

Katrina was just past Florida, and was predicted to intensify to only a CAT 2 and hit the Florida panhandle?

That was only a couple of days ago.

Hurricanes often don't give the warning that we would like to have. Even yesterday the prediction was NOT for a CAT 5. The prediction was for a CAT 3. (Depending on the time of day of the prediction.)

And if you send the Guard in before the hurricane hits, with no way to get them back out, then you lose them too. Then they aren't available for rescue work.

[Cleita]

21. I don't know why you are throwing boulders down about how

impossible this is instead of looking at what can be done. But I guess you like to prove always how right you are. I remember on the news them announcing there was a very good possibilty what is happening could happen two days ago. Even if they had waited until yesterday, there was a very good chance they could have gotten the children and their parents out. Now I guess they all stand a chance of drowning.

I don't know how those shelters like the dome and the ten others are going to withstand what is promised to be a big wave, which will fill these shelters up with water.

[Silverhair]

24. Because I have experience.

I have direct knowledge, NOT emotional theories. I have been through a typhoon, and two hurricanes (Direct eye strikes) and on the edge of other hurricanes.

I lived for six years in New Orleans and understand the problem.

I was an officer in the Seabees, and have participated in disaster relief.

[Selatius]

25. It's simply not feasible

An airlift of that magnitude involving tens of thousands of people cannot be done with just helicopters. You'd need to bring the might of the Air Force in on this, and that would take weeks. Furthermore, you'd also have to have known where Katrina was going to hit, and we didn't get a good clue until just recently.

[Cleita]

26. I wasn't talking about just helicopters.

I'm not stupid. Most of the people seem to be able to get out by car and other means. I am talking about the people who are stranded, the poor, the elderly, and the handicapped who don't have private transportation. I mean are you telling me that they couldn't even try to rescue the children and a parent?

I mean why wasn't there an evacuation plan on the books in case of this kind of disaster a long time ago? Shit we have one here in CA in case our nuclear power plant has a meltdown, sirens and everything.

[Silverhair]

29. There was a plan. And it is being followed.

I saw some of the studies in the mid 80's.

I have been in New Orleans when other hurricanes threatened but turned away. Those storms were much smaller and gave more warning, but I saw the first parts of the plan go into action.

This time, Mom Nature has pitched a very sudden fit, and it is a big one.

[Selatius]

30. Yes, you would need heavy transports like military transport planes

But it takes far longer than just a couple of days to marshal a fleet of those, set up a flight schedule/paths, fuel shipments for the fleet, maintenance crews to maintain them, as well as landing zones in perhaps dozens of airports across the south.

There was an evacuation plan in place prior to the hurricane: The interstates, but they're all but irrelevant now due to clogged traffic. The fact of the matter is that nobody updated the plans to account for the population growth since the 1960s-1970s. The money was not spent, or the budget was cut.

[Silverhair]

34. New plans wouldn't matter anyway.

The problem is that New Orleans is surrounded by water and all the routes out are over some very long bridges, except for three minor two lane roads.

[NYC]

41. Updated plans.

IEM. Homeland Security hired a company named IEM.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4480507

[Selatius]

44. Seems IEM's plans went to absolute shit.

[NYC]

74. But did they make a profit?

That's what really counts.

[Silverhair]

45. Do those plans call for new bridges to be built?

You have a finite number of bridges that have to cover miles of water. Please draw up a plan that will make new, 27 mile long, bridges appear.

[NYC]

73. Lack of bridges was no reason not to attempt

transporting people out in high occupancy vehicles such as buses.

You said your experience is in handling the aftermath, and that is valuable. That does not mean there should be no attempt made before the disaster occurs.

[Selatius]

79. There probably were not enough buses

That seems, to me anyway, to be the most likely answer as to why so many people were left behind. Sort of like what happened with the Titanic.

[NYC]

82. Do you know why there weren't enough lifeboats on the Titanic?

There could have been for the matter of a simple davit.

[ladjf]

57. No. It wouldn't take days to set this up. It would take the President

calling the air force, air national guard commanders and telling him to start sending every troop carrying plan he's got to New Orleans, right now. The planes are always fueled, ready to go. It could have been handled this morning. There are airbases all over that have big planes ready to go.

[Silverhair]

61. It isn't that simple.

You seem to think that flying an airlift is like getting a bunch of people together for a caravan of cars.

I have nine years of active duty behind me and have some understanding of what is really involved.

You are very, very wrong.

[ladjf]

63. Silverhair. What I understand most clearly is that you have an

agenda that has nothing to do with the best interests of the residents of New Orleans. We're not talking about the Berlin Airlift.
We're talking about a small group , say six, C5 or Starlifters that are based with 1,000 of New Orleans. Picking up loads of 350 people, flying them to 100 miles North. Had that started this morning, thousands could have been ev actuated. A call from the President ordering the base commanders to cease all other operations and focus on sending these six or eight planes to N.O. would have done a hell of a lot more than sitting around doing nothing.

[Selatius]

80. Well, he didn't, so it is irrelevant anyway.

It takes the Air Force to do this, and Bush was on vacation.

[ladjf]

84. It is definitely not irrelevant. But, it is to no avail for the people

of New Orleans. However, just because of that, we shouldn't give the administration a pass on what appears to be terrible disaster planning. The possible evacuations is just one element. The unprecedented cuts in hurricane planning budget, the turning it over to to private companies all have hurt the people.

It also occurred to me that in so far as the government is prepared to commandeer any vehicles or structures that they deem necessary, they could have commandeered a dozen 747 for today. The airlines could have been reimbursed.

[Selatius]

86. You thought I gave them a PASS on this shitstorm???

The simple fact is a plan to get the people out of NO should have been in place DECADES ago. That city is surrounded by water. They should have had an airlift plan in place years ago as soon as they realized the population had grown too big for the relatively few roads to handle them. No, they continued to rely almost solely on the interstate. I don't know if it was due to sheer incompetence or a lack of money, but this should have been addressed long before this hour.

[ladjf]

55. 5 C5's, running all day out of Moisant and Lakefront,

shuttling them 100 miles out at 350 per flight could have lifted out
thousands. They could have hauled 3,500 to 4,000 per hour all day. Add that up. Yes, it would be difficult to get the people to the airports, but possible. For one thing, it's less than 7 miles to Lakefront from most of N.O. People could have walked to the airport.
Many others live out on the West could have hiked to Armstrong.

It may sound like an insufficient idea. But, saving a few thousand is worth it. The freepers worried enough about Sciavo. How about the poor people of New Orleans?

[DoYouEverWonder]

37. People have know for years if not decades

that a storm of this magnitude was possible and that New Orleans has bitten the bullet before but eventually one will hit. Especially after the four big ones that hit FL last year, you would have thought they would have had emergency plans in place for an event like this in NO?

[Silverhair]

43. The problem is a lack of routes out of N.O.

No amount of planning will change the fact that you only have I-10 (East & West) and the causeway, and three minor roads.

That's 12 major lanes, and 6 or 8 minor ones.

THAT IS ALL THAT YOU HAVE TO WORK WITH.

Now please draw up a plan that will work.

Remember, you have miles of water to cross, no matter which way you go.

[DoYouEverWonder]

50. I hear that traffic is lightening up

and landfall still isn't until sometime tomorrow.

They had all day to get buses to the Superdome and take those people out of the area.

If NO ends up under water the folks in the Superdome are going to be in for a hell of a time even if the roof and the rest of the structure survives.

The traffic jams suck but most those people will at least get to higher ground in time.

BTW: I was in 3 hurricanes last year. I know how much life sucks after the worst is over and you don't have electric for days and days. What's going to happen to all those folks when they can't go home, the electric is out and they run out of food and water? Especially now that you are claiming that no one could have planned for this?

[Silverhair]

53. Tropical force winds are already hitting.

Landfall is when the eye hits, not when the first winds hit.

After the storm is when the Nat'l Guard will really be needed. Then it will be able to do a lot of good.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

77. Not underwater.

[Silverhair]

81. Not yet.

I-10 going East should remain passable for a couple of hours more.

Causeway and I-10 West should still be OK.

US90 is probably underwater.

Radar shows rain bands are hitting.

[iamjoy]

11. That Is What I Am Thinking

I am surprised they are not doing that for a storm of this magnitude.

They should have filled army transport trucks with people to evacuate them. Disaster relief NGOs could help by providing tent cities with water & food, but people should be encouraged to bring their own.

I imagine the conditions in the tent cities would be like refugee camps in war-torn third world countries, but it would be better than dying. I know lots of people wouldn't leave their homes, but you can only help the ones who want it anyway.

But, it is too late now.

[Cleita]

6. Helicopters, but they should have thought of this a day or two

ago for the people who don't have transportation.

[Silverhair]

18. Two days ago, the prediction

was for it to slightly intensify and to hit the Florida Panhandle.

[Cleita]

19. And yesterday?

???? I guess you are of the opinion if you can't save them all, save no one???

[Silverhair]

22. Too late.

You have to save your ability to rescue after the storm. Sacrificing your rescue workers in a futile attempt to get people out only gets more people killed in the storm and fewer rescued after the storm.

Back in the 70's, I was an officer in the Seabees (Naval Construction Battalions). One of our missions was disaster assistance. We had the heavy construction equipment and the expertise and the men to be able to get to work on rescue immediately. But to do that, we had to be alive after the storm.

So I have had some experience in this area. Almost everyone posting here has NO IDEA what they are talking about.

[Cleita]

23. You always have experience in everything don't you?

So I guess your experience says to sit back and do nothing.

[Silverhair]

28. There is NOTHING the Nat'l Guard can do, except

be ready for rescue work as soon as it is safe to come out.

Sorry, but that is a harsh reality of the situation.

Yes, I have had a lot of experiences in my life, and have learned some hard lessons from them. There are many things in life that I have not experienced and I keep quite on threads on those topics as I would have nothing to contribute.

If someone is drowning, and you can't swim, it may be heroic, but it would also be futile and stupid for you to jump in the water to save them. The result would be two dead people. Instead you run and grab a rope to throw, or a flotation device, but you keep yourself alive to be able to do something. If there are none of those available, then what good do you accomplish by drowning also?

[Cleita]

32. Yes, but what you're suggesting is that because there

aren't enough ropes and flotation devices available, well we won't toss them anything because we can save them all. Walk away.

[Silverhair]

39. You are demanding heroic, but futile, sacrifice.

Somewhat like the emotionally overcome mother who rushes into a blazing building to save her baby, but only dies herself and leaves the other children motherless.

Firefighters are genuine heroic people, but even they will back off from useless suicide.

Often, in the real world, some very unpleasent realities have to be faced. This is one of them.

To make an attempt by the NG would have only resulted in the sacrifice of NG assests without any signifigant lives saved. Those NG assests are going to be badly needed after the storm has passed.

[Cleita]

48. And then there's this.

Kitty heroine recovers with her kittens

NEW YORK (CNN) -- A mother cat who raced into a burning Brooklyn building and rescued her five kittens is recuperating with her litter at an animal clinic.

With her eyes blistered shut, her paws burned and her coat singed, the cat -- nicknamed Scarlet for her patches of red fur -- darted into the flames and pulled out her kittens, one by one. Once all the kittens had been rescued, their mother conducted a head count, touching each kitten with her nose to make sure they were all there.

Firefighter David Gianelli found the feline family outside the building Friday and took them to an animal shelter, where the mother and babies are receiving treatment.

Hundreds of people have offered to adopt the cats.

The kitties all survived and went on to be adopted to good homes. If a dumb animal can instinctively try to to the right thing even though there is the chance she will die in the process, it doesn't say much for humanity does it.

If those guardsmen are risking their lives to protect Bush's oil how about letting them risk their lives for something compassionate and human?

[Silverhair]

49. Emotionally touching, but not logical. Only logic will save lives...

on a large scale. All ideas that you have advanced would result in a greater loss of life. Sorry, but that is the harsh reality.

[Cleita]

51. I get it. Individual lives aren't important for the greater good.

Military logic here, the collateral damage justification. Hitler used the same logic to exterminate the Jews. It was so Germans could have the space they need to live.

:puke:

[Silverhair]

58. Maybe you don't like it, but how do you save the most number?

Sometimes, reality bites very hard. And that isn't just military logic. All hospital practice triage for emergencies. Triage does NOT mean that you treat the worst first. It means you divide people into three groups.

1. Dying no matter what you do. Don't treat them.
2. Will live, no matter what you do. Don't treat them.
3. Dying but you can make a difference. Treat them.

Harsh, but it saves the most lives.

Collateral damage has nothing to do with calculating what action will result in the greatest number of lives saved.

Your collateral damage remark was an simply an angry insult cause by an emotional response.

Emotions drive us to save lives, but logic shows us how to save the greatest number of lives.

[Cleita]

66. Yes, but your logic cheapens life.

Wasn't triage invented in the military? I can see if a guy has his liver gone, there isn't much point in trying to save him if there is no way to get him a transplant. But they will try to save those who can be saved even though there may be too many wounded and not enough doctors and they may lose a few because they humanly couldn't get to them in time. The fact is they did their level best to save as many as they could and that's what I am saying.

I think trying to get as many of those poor people out as they could have tried to wouldn't have put anyone in danger until the hurricane was in too close. Then yeah you would have to give up the rescue attempt. The fact is no one even tried to do it when it was safe.

We know that the real problem is that most of LA National Guard is in Iraq. There isn't time to try to get them from elsewhere so the very people who were supposed to help LA in the time of disaster can't. However, another DUer said that there were some resources available close by that could have been used to evacuate some if not all.

[Silverhair]

68. How does saving the greatest number of lives possible,

cheapen life?

Yes, I cheapen emotion, by not allowing it to force me into illogical decisions. Emotion can set the direction of a decision, but logic sets the method.

[Cleita]

71. Because you are deciding who will live and who will die.

You aren't allowed to do that, not to anyone. What if you were stuck someplace and needed to be rescued would you just sit there and say. Oh well, Dumbya says I'm not worth it, so it's cool with me. There is nothing logical about deciding who is going to live and die.

[Silverhair]

76. W had nothing to do with it.

Logic was around long before him, and will be around long after him.

And sometimes life forces some really bad decisions on us. Sometimes reality bites.

If I needed rescuing, naturally I would want to have my personal ass saved. Yet, if the rescuers had to chose between saving me, or saving a group of others, they should chose the group first. Then me if possible.

Of course, I would hope that W was not making that decision about me, but that is a different matter.

[NYC]

8. I see some space for National Guard vehicles.

http://www.repubblica.it/2003/e/gallerie/esteri/uraka/1.html

[AuntPatsy]

27. Well obviously considering how much time is now left since they

arrived on the scene, thats a no brainer.

[Cleita]

36. At least they finally opened all the lanes on the freeway

to leave the city and relieve the gridlock. Duh.

[Silverhair]

47. That should have been done early. NT

[XOKCowboy]

33. That's rational thought...

It's not applicable to most of the posts here today.

[Cleita]

35. Rational thought would suggest that we never have babies

and let the human race die out because we are an invasive species that destroys things every where we go.

[many a good man]

38. How much is one life worth?

There are people there who want to leave but can't. We should be trying to evacuate everyone we can, even if its just a small percentage. By any means available. The effort in and of itself is worth it.

[Silverhair]

40. How much are two lives worth?

You are going to need those NG units and their equipment for rescue work. If you lose them early to save a few, then you can't save more later.

Reality bites sometimes.

[SmokingJacket]

42. Cruise ships?

That was my lame idea. How many people can they hold? They can get out of the area pretty fast...

[Silverhair]

46. Very lame.

Take a look at a sat photo. The hurricane reaches from the USA to Mexico. You don't want to be at sea in a hurricane.

[SmokingJacket]

60. Well, I was just thinking of scooting around the coast, very quickly...

or maybe up the river? But I guess it's not deep enough.

:blush:

Nevertheless, if it was a major priority, you KNOW they could get people out more efficiently.

[Silverhair]

65. Mississippi River is plenty deep for a long ways up river.

But you are talking about only a handful of people. The real problem, that NOBODY here on this message board wants to admit is that there are only extremely limited ways in and out of New Orleans.

[stepnw1f]

52. So Bush Is Off The Hook? (nt)

[Silverhair]

62. What does Bush have to do with a hurricane?

For Iraq, and many other things, no he isn't off the hook.

For a hurricane? Yep. If we try to blame Bush for a hurricane, we look silly.

[stepnw1f]

83. Um... Not The Hurricane but this Instead...

Bush Cut Hurricane, Flood Protection Funding to New Orleans 06 June 2005 In fiscal year 2006

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4490119

[Silverhair]

85. Please refer to my basic point.

Your statement is thread drift.

My statement was that sending in the Nat'l Guard to help evacuate New Orleans would have been grossly counter productive. It would have hurt more than helped.

The second thing that I state is that New Orleans has very limited access. That is a physical limitation. Any realistic plan has to take that into account.

Finally, the time frame for this was very short. Two days ago the prediction was for a minimal hurricane to hit the Florida panhandle. Yesterday it was only a CAT 2. It bloomed overnight into a CAT 5.

Do you want the evacuate the entire Gulf Coast everytime a hurricane looks at the Gulf? That's what you are talking about.

[Cocoa]

54. they could come in handy afterwards

both the personnel and the equipment.

[Silverhair]

64. YES. Absolutely. N/T

[Stinky The Clown]

56. ****IF**** we had an actual leader in this country

He would have taken the bold step to short-term-duration nationalize the civial aviation fleet and landed planes on every runway in Louisiana, bussed residents to the planes and flown them the hell out of there.

Unprecedented action.

Bold leadership.

Outside the box.

For the good of the PEOPLE.

Instead .... we have idiot son on vacation ......

[DoYouEverWonder]

59. If we had a real leader

He would cancel his vacation and head back to DC to stay on top of the situation.

Unfortunately only brain dead white girls are important enough to disrupt this pResident.

[Silverhair]

67. Another unworkable idea.

An airlift isn't like getting in your car and driving somewhere. Where are you going to get all of that fuel in place all of a sudden for all of those planes?

[Stinky The Clown]

69. Oh please

Planes fly all over the country. They would be fueled where they start, fly to NO and fly out. The fuel is everywhere they come from.

But thanks for your expert advice. I guess I forgot they need figal GI cans at the ammo dump.

[girl gone mad]

70. Why couldn't they bring in more ferries?

If the problem is traffic over bridges, more ferries could help move people out faster.

[Silverhair]

78. From where would you get the ferries on very short notice?

And remember, you are talking about a long ferry trip. Not just across a river.

[laylah]

72. From Iraq? Nothing! n/t

[nofurylike]

75. they had plenty time since knowing the threat. airlift, trains... eom