To all those who think the people staying in N.O. is *'s or GOP's fault:

[Roland99]

THINK FOR A MINUTE!!!!


The models until this weekend had the hurricane curving toward Panama City, FL (or thereabouts) and it didn't hit Cat 5 status until very early this morning.

Now, in 12-15hrs you're going to get enough buses to transport 1/4 - 1/2 million people to a safe distance?

How are you going to coordinate the pick-up locations?

How are you even going to identify the people?

Where are you going to take them?

How are you going to provide medical care, if necessary?

How are you going to alert whereever you're going to prepare for several thousand people and have food, water, blankets, toilets, etc. ready?


THE LOGISTICS ARE NOT FEASIBLE GIVEN THE TIMEFRAME!


The is NOT some GOP conspiracy to kill off black Democrats.


Good fucking grief!!

[msongs]

1. well said nt

[SofaKingLiberal]

2. Hmm, yeah

Maybe a disaster mitigation program would have helped.

[havocmom]

6. Having ALL of the LA Guard in LA would help too

But I hear 3000 of them are in Iraq making quarterly reports for Halliburton & Betchel all rosey and nice.

[NYC]

Dozens of high water vehicles sent to Iraq.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4486314

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[0007]

118. Help the unfortunate when disaster hit, such as the elderly

and the folks that are hanging on by a thread.

[Bluebear]

142. welcome ladie

[xmas74]

145. They won't prevent it.

But they would help evac. They would help transport both people and supplies. They would patrol and help traffic run smoother. They would partition off low-lying areas and patrol until they have to leave the area(when people realize the areas are off-limits, they will usually give up. Not everyone, but most). They would work as a presence to evac in an orderly fashion and to prevent looting (along w/ other crimes). Later, they would help w/ search and rescue/recovery, clean-up, delivery of food and supplies, identification of bodies and other jobs (patrolling the areas that need to be demolished to keep site seers out, maintaining the flow of traffic and presenting a calm face to those who are frightened).
That is the job of the National Guards. Their job is to defend their country on their own soil from forces both natural and manmade(such as attack). Their job is not to leave to fight overseas. It is to offer defense and relief to citizens on our own soil.

[TheDebbieDee]

11. Great name, SofaKingLiberal! Welcome to DU!

I say if it makes anyone feel better to blame natural disasters on the * Misadministration, then go right ahead!

After all, the * Misadministration blames all the countries woes on Bill Clinton....so why not?

[SofaKingLiberal]

57. Thanks

[NYC]

15. Disaster mitigation.

Barbaraann posted a tread re disaster mitigation.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4482567

Also, there's this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4484450

[Carni]

36. No shit

In addition if the National guard were HERE instead of deployed to his made up WMD's preventative preemptive bulshit fest in Iraq...
I think NOLA would be in a little better shape currently.

Perhaps there wouldn't be a bunch of people stuck in the superdome currently.

The lack of media attention regarding the severity of Katrina, until today, has been deliberate-bush can't handle another gas price spike so it was downplayed until it was a cat 5.

The Bush admin gambled and the people of NOLA lost--may that fucker rot in hell.

[salin]

3. Not a conspiracy - however the cities and area's ability to address

such a disaster have been diminished due to bush and gop policies.

I agree that the lack of calling for evacuation is in no way a bush/gop conspiracy.

But I also think that if/when disaster hits it will have graver and more widespread consequences due to bushco/gop policies (cuts in funding; changes in FEMA due to HLS; national guard (and La equipment) sent to Iraq; etc.)

[Elidor]

7. That is the key point in the whole discussion

You have of way of hitting the nail on the head, Salin.

[jsamuel]

17. Absolutely

[Media_Lies_Daily]

29. Bingo! Well said!

[seriousstan]

4. THINK FOR A MINUTE??? That's a tall order.

It is so much easier to simply bitch, moan and point a finger of blame.
I especially liked the comment I saw that said they would take all the helicopters in LA to transport ALL the people out.

[me b zola]

151. because after all,

Those helicopters should conserve their fuel so that they can spot & recover the thousands of dead bodies that may be floating in the streets.

Thinking *is* a tall order. The privatization of governmental functions, above & beyond the coruption & looting of our treasury, has meant that average Americans are often going without our basic needs being met.

[blue sky at night]

5. they are mumbling about how......

global warming is contributing to the intensity of the Hurricanes in the last 5 or 6 seasons.........so maybe they could pay more attention to the global implications of their "environmental" policies. You are right though, it is nearly impossible to do what needs to be done, especially: where the hell do they go??

[caligirl]

8. face it several major metropolitan areas can't be evacuated.

NYC and the bay area are two that are screwed. 100,000 is just too many people to move in that time frame.

[Inland]

9. And how long as NO been below sea level?

And when were hurricanes first observed?

and when was Galveston swept away?

And if NO is spared this time, don't we know that someday a category five will hit it dead on someday, just as we knew it fifty years ago?

That doesn't make it Bush's fault more then every single person in authority's fault. Sorta like 9/11. I half expect Bush to say that he would have moved heaven and earth if he had only known a hurricane named Katerina would reach C5 and hit New Orleans....

[Pepper32]

25. My sentiments exactly! (nt)

[DoYouEverWonder]

10. Bull

New Orleans has less then 500,000 people. They have been in a hurricane zone since the city was founded.

Especially after 4 super-storms hit FL last year, the government has had plenty of time to plan for the worst.

It seems now all they have are excuses as to why they can't do anything.

BTW: There have been lines of people at the Superdome all day. Looks like a good a place has any to send buses to pick people up and get them out of there, especially if they had started earlier today.

[Roland99]

16. First, the lines are gone. Second, you want people of N.O. to pay

how much more in taxes? It would have to be a fair amount of money to pay for the manpower and afford the equipment (people and equipment that will be getting paid for doing nothing except every 50 years or so)


In the meantime, what better things could that money be used for?

[DoYouEverWonder]

22. They're going to be paying a lot more

then higher taxes after a storm like this destoys their city.

BTW: Maybe we could have used some of that billion a week W is throwing away in Iraq to prepare for these storms better.

[Roland99]

23. Sure, Iraq is a boondoggle costing lives and money but...

nothing could prepare a city properly for a storm of this magnitude.

[DoYouEverWonder]

26. That doesn't mean you don't at least

do everything you can to try to get as many people out as possible.

Of course, we can't hold anyone accountable now can we?

[Roland99]

35. And that's what they are doing.

You want to spend billions to keep a fleet of hundreds and hundreds of buses at the ready, maintained, fueled-up, and thousands of people to go door-to-door, all within a 12-hour timeframe?

[DoYouEverWonder]

58. Oh please

New Orleans has an excellent transportation system of buses that are in use every day. They must get their gas from somewhere? All they had to do was head the buses down to the Superdome where they have a captive audience at the moment. I am sure if the mayor announced that there would be buses there waiting to take the people to safety most of those folks would rather be on a bus heading out of town, rather then stuck in that building like sitting ducks waiting for the storm to come in.

Do you have any clue what a Category 5 Hurricane means? We are talking total devastation. Major buildings flattened. A possible 30 foot storm surge. When those waves go back out they don't leave much behind.

[Roland99]

67. And the RTA was taking people to the various shelters, free of charge

pick-up locations were all over the city.

[DoYouEverWonder]

79. Then why couldn't they

drive them out of New Orleans? A shelter in New Orleans is not shelter.

You sure do have an excuse for everything.

BTW: Have you ever been in a hurricane? Just curious?

[Roland99]

84. Because those buses can do more good getting MORE people

to shelters than a FEW people out of the area.


And, I've not been through a hurricane but I've been through a tornado. Part of the massive April outbreak in 1974.

[DoYouEverWonder]

97. Then you have no clue

what these people are facing.

I was in three hurricanes last year and we did not get the full force of any of them. However if I never live through even a Cat 1 again, I would be very happy. A Cat 5 is beyond imagination. That is why I'm so freaked out that they didn't do everything possible to get everybody out of the city. Nothing less will do. When the pumps go down and that 30 foot wall of water breaches the dikes the death and destruction is going to be unimaginable.

[Roland99]

100. And these people haven't been through a hurricane.

you can't make them do something they don't want to do.


Isn't that what we would prefer? Gov't staying out of personal lives?

[DoYouEverWonder]

110. I'm willing to bet

that most of the people who lined up to get into the Superdome would much rather be somewhere else. Unfortunately, the government is telling them this is a safe place to go and didn't offer much in the way of alternatives. A lot of people in NO don't own cars, nor do they have the money to pay to get themselves out of there. They are stuck with whatever limited assistance the gov is offering, which seems to be not much as the moment.

[WillowTree]

108. What about school busses?

Why didn't they load every school bus in the city to capacity and haul butt out of there? Not only would it have gotten many more people to safer ground, but it would have saved the school busses, as well?

Simple solution and cost effective (even with today's gas prices, it would have been one Hell of a lot cheaper than having to either do without or replace thousands of school busses). Perhaps too simple for anyone to have thought of it.

[Roland99]

128. Sure...sounds so simple.

But, who's going to drive the buses and how will they get to the buses?

Where are the pick-up locations going to be? Who's going to handle the complaints about not having stops here or there or there?

How will you determine if someone is or isn't capable of driving themselves out of town (to be sure only those w/o cars or other ways to get out of town don't misuse the buses)?



Simple logistics. In a 12-hour or even a 24-hour timeframe, you cannot evacuate a city the size of New Orleans.

[me b zola]

153. Who would drive the school busses?

How about the Nation Gaurd?

NO has been fearing this for years. It was only a matter of time & *they* knew it.

[Horse with no Name]

24. Yeah!

Why spend state money getting people out of there when they can spend federal money picking up their bodies?

[Child_Of_Isis]

27. In the meantime, what better things could that money be used for?

Shrub's vacation. God forbid we use tax dollars to save lives.

[Roland99]

38. Enough with the logical fallacies, please.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

48. "Logical fallacies"??? That's your opinion, isn't it?

[Roland99]

51. Uh...no. Stating a fact.

non sequitirs, false dichotomies, etc. abound in here.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

61. While you're playing word games, 100,000 people are in very real....

...trouble in New Orleans.

Is that okay with you? You act like it is...am I wrong?

[Roland99]

63. I fear for their lives as much as you do but you are ignoring one BIG fact

Many of these people just don't fear for their lives enough to find a way out. They feel safe in the Superdome. Who are we to say what they must do?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

99. Do you have the gas money they need and/or vehicle they could use....

...to leave town? If they had either or both of those items, don't you think they would have left town?

If the Superdome is all they have for shelter, who's fault is that? Are you actually trying to blame the people who can't leave the city?

And while we're at it, tell me how you've devined that many of the 100,000 "just don't fear for their lives enough to find a way out"?

[Roland99]

103. "Where there's a will, there's a way."

There's one thing Americans are known for is ingenuity and personal fortitude (and I'm not talking the BS crap that Hannity spews)

[datasuspect]

113. yes you are

and it is incredibly boorish and insensitive.

[Roland99]

130. I am because you say I am?

There are people who will be lazy and not want to either ask for help or take advantage of help.


Simple fact of life.

[Pepper32]

Good question, has someone taken a poll? And determined everyone in the

...Dome is there because they want to be or for lack of trying to leave?

I seriously doubt the majority of them chose to stay or had no desire to try to leave NOLA.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Roland99]

62. Oh, look! Here come the Ad Hominems!

Beautiful.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Roland99]

77. And you're not worth my breath anymore

Thanks for the continued personal insults for expressing my opinion which is based in pragmatic thought.

[Carni]

81. Your pramastism is more like *compassionate conservatism*

I am not fooled nor impressed.

[datasuspect]

94. sounds like he just discovered logic 101

or maybe and intro to philosophy textbook.

[Roland99]

98. I agree. Carni has much to learn in the world of debating.

[datasuspect]

116. i was referring to you . . .

[bpilgrim]

120. D'oh!

lol

peace

[Bluebear]

123. LOL

[Roland99]

124. Oh, I know. I was trying to be nice to you.

[datasuspect]

125. nice attempt at a save

but close, and yet, NO CIGAR.

[Roland99]

129. No attempt at all. I knew you were trying to insult me and I was

trying to ignore it...playing nice.


Do you *want* me to insult you?

[Carni]

119. You have much to learn in the world of not sounding so smug

Ever hear of karma?

I hope that someday you are introduced to the concept.

[Pepper32]

71. Great post, I think you expressed the thoughts of many! (nt)

[Streetdoc270]

135. a few thoughts on that

1) There are 1 million+ people in the New Orleans Metro area
2) There are an estimated 100,000 people at the superdome. How many busses will you need to transport 100,000 people?
3) Where do you put 100,000 people that has shelter, bathrooms, food prep areas, medical areas, and can wistand 200 MPH winds?


The people in EM (Emergency Management) arn't a bunch of GOP Bush Boy Idiots that you all are making them out to be. The problem of a Cat 5 hurricane hitting NO is a planned event, this is not a fly by the seat of their pants event. People need to stop seeing everything as a conspiracy! The FEMA people who work the ground are well educated professionals, stop implying that all EM people are Morons!

[Pepper32]

12. Those questions could have been answered long ago. It's called a PLAN!

Just like they new the World Trade Center could be attacked, they knew this could happen to NOLA.

[Child_Of_Isis]

13. If you see a man drowning,

do you ask yourself these answers before swooping down to pull him out of the water? Do you really care about whether you have meds for him, what are you going to feed him, where are you going to take him after you save him,or do you just worry about saving his ass? Democrats or not, most of those who cannot get out are black. You can bet if these were rich white folk, they would be getting them out.

[Roland99]

19. Ooh...logical fallacies

Bzzzt.


Next?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

30. Well, that tells us more about what you think about the people....

...of New Orleans than we ever wanted to know, doesn't it?

Bzzzt.

Next.

[Roland99]

32. No, it tells us you seek to make up problems to fit your opinion.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

55. Yeah....I've got one heck of an imagination...just look at New Orleans....

...the unfolding disaster in New Orleans is not real because you say so?

Wow. Impressive!

Let's get all of those people on the road to go back home to join the other 100,000 that couldn't get out. Great idea.

[Roland99]

68. Now you're putting false words in my mouth.

Lovely.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

111. You're the one posting your comments...I'm just responding.

[Webster Green]

14. Right, it's "hard work", so why bother?

Making sure we are safe is what government ought to be doing, rather than picking fights with countries that did nothing to threaten us.

C'mon!

[ReverendDeuce]

18. Not * or Dems... it's Al Qaeda using their WMD's that is to blame!

That's what this is. We all know that Al Qaeda bought WMD's (Weather Management Devices) from Iraq and Saddam Hussein! They are just using them. Be prepared for more weather disasters courtesy of the nefarious Islamiacs!

[brettdale]

20. True But

The MSM would be screaming bloody murder, if Clinton was still on vacation , when all this was happening.

[applegrove]

21. What about Pat Robertson threatening Chavez? Could it be god

is angry at the red states?

Not funny. But dark humour helps to releave tension.

[ispeculate]

28. I am waiting for the WH press briefing that Iran is about to

attack us with a hurricane. Justification for another invasion?
?

[Ilsa]

31. Some people I know didn't wait until this morning for a

final decision. They started leaving yesterday so their drive to Houston wouldn't be too bad.

[meisje]

33. The sky is ALWAYS falling at D.U.

People here almost seem happier when something bad is about to happen.

[Bluebear]

39. Oh is that so?

So now we're reveling in it? What a stupid thing to say.

[Roland99]

41. And they bitch about personal responsibility and accountability

but ignore the fact that many of those in the Superdome (and elsewhere) were capable of leaving on their own.

[Bluebear]

46. No, 'personal repsonsibility' is an overwhelmingly GOP topic

[Roland99]

49. It should be an overwhelmingly HUMAN topic.

Granted, some people are disabled (physically, mentally, medically, etc.) but the large majority are able people who just choose to stay behind. If I fear enough for my life, I'll find some way to get my family to safety.

Can you force someone to do something against their will?

[Bluebear]

53. Tell it to Hattie. "If you don't have no money, you can't go."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4479709

[tjdee]

133. Yeah, because, if you have no car and work for minimum wage,

you're going to have money to somehow leave the town and put yourself (and god forbid your family) up in a hotel indefinitely.

:eyes:

[undergroundpanther]

34. We all

look out for number 1
and when we all look out for ours,there are some that for various reasons,have nothing,The haves have a million blame the victim excuses why they do not help others..do not plan ahead,do not care.
For instance..
people with cars don't want to use money to fund public transport they don't use,Likewise people in suburnban nice neighborhoods
with"housing values" to fuss over don't want to let the homeless camp in thier yards(they think homeless CHOOSE it blame the victims is how the well off excuse themselves from caring) When it is me mine and mine..where does you and yours fit in whenn you can't pay?And when a person who only thinks of me me me is a benifactor they can choose and be picky as to what kinds of people they will help.Social darwinism is tied to social ranking. Why is a homeless person less worthy of respect than a rich person in our culture? We can say we are equal but I think we are not.

[xultar]

37. I agree with you because I don't think most would go. But,

wouldn't it have been nice if they tried?

[Roland99]

44. They have.

Heck, the emergency ops center for, I think, Jefferson Parish went out to places in the southern areas and people just didn't want to leave.

These are the people who will be staring face-to-face with the actual storm surge and the highest winds and they don't want to leave.

[xultar]

64. I know. I lived there. I know NOLA folk. But It doesn't appear that

they took the NOLA Transit buses and made offers.

How man on TeeV said they didn't have the means to go. I know some who didn't have means may have taken them up on it. Most though sadly, wouldn't have.

[Tallison]

92. Wouldn't it have been nice if they had the option? nt

[Deja Q]

40. Agreed!!!!!

[Neshanic]

42. There is NO EXCUSE.

They knew this day would come.

They know they live below sea level.

The government...Federal, state and the city has failed these people. The people left to stand in line at the Dome.

[Child_Of_Isis]

95. Now that is just lack of personal resposibility

expecting the government or state to use your tax dollars to help save your life if need be. They need that money for themselves....and wars. One should have saved something, be it 50 cents or dollar a week for this time. Even if it meant your children going without school lunches. One should have been prepared. With an SUV full of gas, money in the bank for hotels and food on the road. Quit defending these ignorant lazy black folk who have been left behind.:banghead:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

43. Yeah....let's just spend the money on a few concurently running wars....

...and the development of dozens of weapons systems that we'll never need.

And before I forget, let's have a big ol' tax cut to make the super-wealthy even wealthier.

Who's cut all of those funds to protect cities from this kind of disaster? How about every GOP president acting in concert with every GOP-controlled Congress going back to just after WWII.

[Roland99]

47. Guess we better start building a 200' wall around the whole COUNTRY

because we know the seas will one day rise to cover the coasts.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

65. More word games. Should I have expected anything more from you?

[Roland99]

87. You're the one that started the red herring game.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

122. Please point out a single "red herring" you THINK I've posted.

[Roland99]

134. *ahem*

your entire reply to me.

Yeah....let's just spend the money on a few concurently running wars....


...and the development of dozens of weapons systems that we'll never need.

And before I forget, let's have a big ol' tax cut to make the super-wealthy even wealthier.

Who's cut all of those funds to protect cities from this kind of disaster? How about every GOP president acting in concert with every GOP-controlled Congress going back to just after WWII.

BTW, do you realize the Democrats have controlled the Congress most of that time?

[Bluebear]

45. Would you go off to Arizona to promote Medicare reform?

Would you go off to meet rich donors in San Diego?
Would you send the Louisiana Naitonal Guard's high water vehicles to Iraq?
Would you refuse state's pleadings to the Bush administration to return some Guard back to their state to help in disaster relief?
Would you slash Clinton's disaster mitigation programs?

Why such an apologist?

[Roland99]

52. Oh, look! Even MORE logical fallacies!

:eyes:

[Bluebear]

56. Yeah our logic here is just too too shallow for you.

[Roland99]

60. good grief. Tossing out diversionary questions instead of answering mine?

That's a logical fallacy.


Here's a list of them:
http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/index.htm

[Bluebear]

69. It's not my job to answer your questions.

I am not in a political position in New Orleans, Louisiana.

[Roland99]

80. But it's your job to come up with diversionary questions?

Related to McClellan?

[Bluebear]

85. Yeah I'm related to McClellan

But your stirring up shit and insulting people is really getting old. Ciao.

[Roland99]

89. I have insulted no one. The opposite, unfortunately, cannot be said.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

117. You have a rather active imagination. You just THINK you're....

...being insulted.

You apparently believe that to be the case with every person with whom you disagree.

Interesting.

[Silverhair]

109. Great site. Thanks. NT

[Tallison]

102. By "logical fallacy"

do you mean an illogical statement? Just trying to clarify - your term's a little pretentious and cumbersome.

[WillyT]

50. I Dunno... Reminds Me Of The Titanic Passengers In Steerage !!!

"Sure buddy, we'll get you out of there. Just let me get my wife and kids on those lifeboats first, OK???"

Funny how those in charge always seem to get to the lifeboats first.

:shrug:

[Roland99]

54. who has been told they must stay behind?

[Child_Of_Isis]

72. You know, I am beginning to see it from your point of view.

It is these folks fault that they haven't any money to buy SUV's and gas, and a credit card to pay for a week or so, maybe longer, of hotels and money in the bank for food on the road. They are black and poor. We all know that the poor are just lazy, and lacking in personal responsibility.

[Roland99]

78. Who says they are poor? Who says they have no transportation?

Who says they have no family/friends who can help?

What about the Asian couple that's on their honeymoon and staying at the Superdome? I guess they're just stupid and poor, too, eh?


:eyes:

[Child_Of_Isis]

112. All of the reports I saw,

when asked, the folks said they couldn't get out. They didn't have the money, nor the means. But that's just that lousy liberal media trying to make the pukes look bad. In truth, these folks didn't want to leave. So, if 1000's of black folk are killed, we can all blame them and not their elected officials.

[Neshanic]

121. You are really reaching. Better stay on that limb.

[datasuspect]

93. ummm

if you are poor enough:

1. you cannot afford a private vehicle
2. you more than likely do not have money to put gas in said nonexistent vehicle
3. and greyhound (if they were running) requires some form of payment (cash, credit card, personal check) to secure a passenger ticket.

kinda restricts "choices" and "personal responsibility", no?

[Neshanic]

66. Exactly. Why no mass transit busses in the outbound lanes?

Why was the inbound that was reversed empty? Why were the outbounds devoid of any busses? New Oleans does not have busses?

Why? because the poor don't rent hotels, own cars, have credit cards.

Just let em' sit in a stadium soon to loose power.

Sickening.

[Roland99]

74. The buses were taking people to shelters.

How many buses do they have? 100? Maybe 200? You're not going to evacuate very many people.

[Neshanic]

88. All I saw was cars on that freeway fleeing.

If you have people in danger, the busses should of been shuttling people day and night out of the city.

We don't have so many busses, so lets call it good.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DoYouEverWonder]

75. Welcome to DU

I get the feeling you won't be staying long.

Bye.

[Neshanic]

76. Do not snap your dose in half. Like the doctor said, take the ...

whole dose he prescribed for you.

[DoYouEverWonder]

82. Boy the mods are quick tonight

that had to be a record for snuffing out a freeper.

[Catbird]

83. 72 hours clearance time!!! Full evacuation was not feasible.

By the time you are fairly sure a hurricane will hit, it is already too late to evacuate most cities. See the quote below giving an estimated clearance time for New Orleans of 72 hours (3 days!!!). It is from an American Meteorological Society committee report at a forum sponsored by the Weather Channel in September 2000. I don't think the clearance time has improved since then. Someone may have a newer reference.

http://www.ametsoc.org/atmospolicy/forumreports/forumreport.pdf

As more people migrate to the coasts and concentrate in urban areas, the pace of growth in evacuation clearance times is outstripping advances in forecast skill. Populations are often asked to evacuate days before anticipated landfall, when the storm’s future location and intensity are still very uncertain. For example, New Orleans requires 72 hours to evacuate. Business-as-usual approaches such as incremental improvements in prediction skill and modifications in present evacuation procedures must be augmented by substantial advances in hurricane preparedness, forecasting, and response strategies, and by more effective coordination. To substantially reduce future hurricane losses will require concerted action on the part of all levels of government, as well as private enterprise and the general public.

[ladjf]

131. Didn't need full evacuation. Most got out in the automobiles.

Needed to move out maybe 15,000 to 20,000 over an ten hour period. That was feasible. Among other things, a dozen large airliners, or military transports could have been commandeered. The people could have been lifted up North a 100 miles or so. Twelve planes, carrying 350 each could haul 20,000 in 10 hours, or at least close to it. The bigger problem with that would have been getting the people to LakeFront or Armstrong airports. Those living within 5 or 6 miles could have walked to the airport.

By the way, I've been a DU'er for years. I've never seen such a bunch of flagrant freepers on this board as I have tonight. I've got to consider that Bushco has unleashed a fleet of lurking freepers to try to head off what is going to be a colossal political bombshell in the event the casualties are high in the coastal area. In light of the cuts in hurricane funding and changes in disaster planning , i.e. privatization, BushCo is going to get a lot of blame.

[Catbird]

139. FEMA counts automobiles in evacuation

The FEMA analysis of clearance time includes the time for individual cars as well as any mass transportation efforts.

[laureloak]

86. I can't believe they don't have a better evacuation plan

considering their city is below sea level.

[Skittles]

154. and that this doomsday scenario has been predicted for many years

MANY years

[Cleita]

90. How hard is it to move people out of harm's way if there

is even a chance they may be hit? If the LA National Guard were at home where it belongs, I don't think it would have been that hard. Even if the hurricane turns and goes away and nothing is harmed, why take the chance?

[seabeyond]

91. or clintons fault, or the no officials. i agree. i keep wanting to

post to the people blaming, then decide why bother. but you are right. it wasnt until yesterday that people were really starting to talk it was going to hit no, but then it was and is a guess.

i agree

[Neshanic]

96. Beacuse of NO's special geographic circumstances

Do the math.

They waited too long. The mayor is a moron.

[seabeyond]

106. i disagree. n/t

[countingbluecars]

101. "How are you even going to identify the people?"

Will it be easier if they are dead?

[Roland99]

104. Obviously.

:eyes:

[countingbluecars]

114. My point being

there are answers to all the questions you posed in your original message. It's called an emergency plan.

[Roland99]

126. You didn't answer my question.

[countingbluecars]

136. Answers to the questions

in your original message are not my responsibility. These issues should have been addressed by the government and answered in an emergency response plan. Even the little rural school where I work has an emergency evacuation plan that takes into account many of the issues you raised.

[Roland99]

137. Ok, then how does your little rural school determine who is worthy

of public transportation and who is not? Are the able turned away?

[countingbluecars]

138. Obviously we have a plan

to get everyone to safety. All are worthy. It should be the same with any emergency plan, no matter how big or small. It would take a lot of coordination, but that's what an emergency plan is all about. If a person needs public transportation to reach safey then they are worthy of it.

[ima_sinnic]

148. who is "worthy" of public transportation??

I see a "libertarian" (ie, cheap-ass greedy repuke who would like all social services to be privatized, with no fire or police service except by subscription) has outed himself, with very first post whining about how "high" taxes would have to be in order for government to attend to its proper business of providing for the safety and security of the people it's working for.

who is "worthy" of public transport? I would say anyone who is human is "worthy," you have a problem with that? let me guess: you're going to create a scenario of people with transportation of their own "abusing the system" by hitching a free ride on a publicly provided bus, aren't you? those "welfare queens" who "milk the system" would be all over this, wouldn't they? (like anyone who could afford otherwise would choose to cram him/herself into a bus and be herded around just to save some money on gas and hotel room). well you know what, I don't give a flying fuck if someone wants to do that! they'd be crazy IMO so they need the service. (oh, and by the way, where would they go? gee, there must be only about 50 school gymnasiums within 50 miles of New Orleans, right? and good-hearted people--unlike yourself--who would gladly pitch in to make sandwiches and bring soup in thermoses. I'd do it in a heartbeat if I had the chance.)

people like you, who care only about your own wallet and resent services provided to the needy/incapable/disadvantaged, make me sick. I wish the whole stinking lot of you could go somewhere far away and create your own selfish society where nobody would have to pay into the common pot, no social services whatsoever would be provided, and everybody could fill the potholes in front of their own houses with their own tar.

[Child_Of_Isis]

115. "How are you even going to identify the people?"

Easy. They are black.

[Roland99]

127. .

:eyes:

[wli]

105. it's politically-biased defunding of social programs in Democratic regions

They admit they do it. They're doing it in other areas like BRAC. And defunding FEMA in Louisiana and/or New Orleans has been explicitly dicsussed and admitted to.

There is no question this is happening. It is a GOP conspiracy to kill Democrats.

[havocmom]

143. In regards to defunding: here's some info on budget cuts

ew Orleans district, U.S. Army Corps of Engineers (Cut by Bush)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2042880

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4200/is_20050606/ai_n14657367

In fiscal year 2006, the New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers is bracing for a record $71.2 million reduction in federal funding.

It would be the largest single-year funding loss ever for the New Orleans district, Corps officials said.

I've been here over 30 years and I've never seen this level of reduction, said Al Naomi, project manager for the New Orleans district. I think part of the problem is it's not so much the reduction, it's the drastic reduction in one fiscal year. It's the immediacy of the reduction that I think is the hardest thing to adapt to.

There is an economic ripple effect, too. The cuts mean major hurricane and flood protection projects will not be awarded to local engineering firms. Also, a study to determine ways to protect the region from a Category 5 hurricane has been shelved for now.

Am too tired this evening to really get my head around this, but I'm thinking there might be some bad aspects to it.

[DoYouEverWonder]

132. Here's the latest advisory

WWUS74 KLIX 282139
NPWLIX

URGENT - WEATHER MESSAGE
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE NEW ORLEANS LA
413 PM CDT SUN AUG 28 2005

...EXTREMELY DANGEROUS HURRICANE KATRINA CONTINUES TO APPROACH THE
MISSISSIPPI RIVER DELTA...
...DEVASTATING DAMAGE EXPECTED...

MOST OF THE AREA WILL BE UNINHABITABLE FOR WEEKS...PERHAPS LONGER. AT
LEAST ONE HALF OF WELL CONSTRUCTED HOMES WILL HAVE ROOF AND WALL
FAILURE. ALL GABLED ROOFS WILL FAIL...LEAVING THOSE HOMES SEVERELY
DAMAGED OR DESTROYED.

THE MAJORITY OF INDUSTRIAL BUILDINGS WILL BECOME NON FUNCTIONAL.
PARTIAL TO COMPLETE WALL AND ROOF FAILURE IS EXPECTED. ALL WOOD
FRAMED LOW RISING APARTMENT BUILDINGS WILL BE DESTROYED. CONCRETE
BLOCK LOW RISE APARTMENTS WILL SUSTAIN MAJOR DAMAGE...INCLUDING SOME
WALL AND ROOF FAILURE.

HIGH RISE OFFICE AND APARTMENT BUILDINGS WILL SWAY DANGEROUSLY...A
FEW TO THE POINT OF TOTAL COLLAPSE. ALL WINDOWS WILL BLOW OUT.

AIRBORNE DEBRIS WILL BE WIDESPREAD...AND MAY INCLUDE HEAVY ITEMS SUCH
AS HOUSEHOLD APPLIANCES AND EVEN LIGHT VEHICLES. SPORT UTILITY
VEHICLES AND LIGHT TRUCKS WILL BE MOVED. THE BLOWN DEBRIS WILL CREATE
ADDITIONAL DESTRUCTION. PERSONS...PETS...AND LIVESTOCK EXPOSED TO THE
WINDS WILL FACE CERTAIN DEATH IF STRUCK.

POWER OUTAGES WILL LAST FOR WEEKS...AS MOST POWER POLES WILL BE DOWN
AND TRANSFORMERS DESTROYED. WATER SHORTAGES WILL MAKE HUMAN SUFFERING
INCREDIBLE BY MODERN STANDARDS.

THE VAST MAJORITY OF NATIVE TREES WILL BE SNAPPED OR UPROOTED. ONLY
THE HEARTIEST WILL REMAIN STANDING...BUT BE TOTALLY DEFOLIATED. FEW
CROPS WILL REMAIN. LIVESTOCK LEFT EXPOSED TO THE WINDS WILL BE
KILLED.

AN INLAND HURRICANE WIND WATCH IS ISSUED WHEN SUSTAINED WINDS NEAR
HURRICANE FORCE...OR FREQUENT GUSTS AT OR ABOVE HURRICANE FORCE...ARE
POSSIBLE WITHIN THE NEXT 24 TO 36 HOURS.


http://weather.noaa.gov/pub/data/raw/ww/wwus74.klix.npw.lix.txt

All we can do now is pray for those poor people trapped in the Superdome.

[President Kerry]

140. actually it's freeps blaming mayor and governor..

it's bullshit for the same reason though.. Sometimes it's just acts of god.

[lynne]

141. Not to mention -

- that there are always a hard-core group of people that will refuse to go no matter what. No one is forced to leave their property and go if they don't want to.

A hurricane conspiracy theory? Next thing we'll be hearing is that the GOP now controls the weather and has shifted the moon to influence the tides. Anyone is certainly free to believe it if they really want. But - IMO - anyone thinking such just has wwaayy too much time on their hands and needs to step back from the computer and take a good hard look at reality for a change. :crazy:

[Bluebear]

144. I don't think anyone really thinks that

:hi:

[wli]

156. there are conspiracy theories about "geophysical weapons"

I don't really believe them. If they were true, they would have been used for overt conquest not long after they proved feasible to reliably use.

By and large, this garbage turns up when searching for various kinds of BFEE malfeasance. It's actually useful to see this kind of bullcrap, because it's a sign by which you can discover crackpot/psyop/whatever sites and blacklist them as sources of disinformation.

[WilliamPitt]

146. "The is NOT some GOP conspiracy to kill off black Democrats."

Please.

Please.

PLEASE tell me no one said that.

Gad zooks.

[jsamuel]

147. no, no one said that, people have said that they are neglecting them

[Bluebear]

149. .

.

[wli]

155. I said it, and I'll defend it, albeit as slight hyperbole.

Disaster planning for events of this nature is something known about and understood very, very far in advance. The evacuation plans, the materials, the equipment, and so on are moral obligations. These have been reneged upon.

It is a fact that this was done and that it was politically motivated. This is tantamount to LIHOP or a lethal boobytrap, a.k.a. second-degree murder.

I have a thread enumerating links on the topic of how partisan porkbarrellization of emergency management created this underpreparedness fiasco I can respond to a link with upon request (editing this post bars me from fishing out the link).

With all this in hand, I find my statement defensible.

[nadinbrzezinski]

150. Havnig done Emergency Planning for DISASTERS let me

answer this.. the time frame for preparing for this was not the last 24 hours, but the last ten years.

You don't prepare a plan, it shows... also the last five they have defunded many disaster programs.

Oh and you also prepare for this by running exercises and spending the money to prepare for the day that you hope never does. From what I am seeing, my profesional opinion is... piss poor planing and you will see (I hope I am wrong) quite possibly casualties in the thousands, and yes, this happens due to lack of leadership at the top.

Oh and the old axiom of politics applies, regardess of who is responsible for the piss poor planning, the current occupant in the WH and the party in power will pay a poliical price... you can take that to the bank

[Bluebear]

157. NB missed your message last night

You bring valuable insight to this.

[fujiyama]

152. True enough

The storms are not the fault of Bush or the GOP. To say that is as stupid as those idiotic claims that the tsunami that hit Asia was Bush's fault.

What the administration can be blamed for is using the National Guard to further his own twisted political agenda - using them as an occupying force in a hostile land.

The State National Guard are here to help during domestic distubances - whether it's an act of terrorism or a natural disaster. That's what they should be utilized for. It does piss me off that they aren't here to be able to help their communitie, doing the job many originally signed up for.