You know, phenomena like Katrina make me wonder about God

[steve2470]

I'm a liberal Christian. I will never never understand why God allows hurricanes to exist. I'm sure it's meant to be that way.

[Horse with no Name]

1. I believe in God

but I believe in Mother Nature.
She is trying to right the wrongs done by man.
I don't think that even God messes with Mother Nature.

[rbjensen]

So like Mother Nature

is God's old lady?

[expatriot]

7. So God "doesn't mess with Mother Nature"

Who created Mother Nature and what did God create? This is an interesting personal pantheon you have going here.

[Catherine Vincent]

14. In other words....God respects Mother Nature.

[Horse with no Name]

79. Thank you cat.

I really wasn't in the mood to get in an argument with someone.
I knew someone would understand what I meant.:hug:

[FreedomAngel82]

29. Me either

I think He only has one time and that was with the flood. Of course, can I prove that happend? No. But after that point God made a promise to never flood the earth again. I think there is only so much power God has. He can guide us but we have freewill and I think it's the same for nature. If you sit and meditate on nature itself you can really feel all the tension of being ignored and not properly taken care of. *sigh*

[RaleighNCDUer]

43. I'll bet she sure gave him an ear full after that.

"Do you know how much work I put into this planet! Thousands of millenia of balancing ecologies, growing forests, laying out deserts so the horney toads have a place to live and you just up and flood it!"

"Sorry. I won't do it again."

"Not until next time!"

"I mean it. Look, here's a rainbow, just for you. Forgive me?"

"I'll think about it. But you better think about it, too, before you fuck with Mother Nature again!"

[WindRavenX]

2. As a scientist...

...I just see it as nature.
And people living in places where it is only natural for nature to get rough.

[WiseButAngrySara]

72. As a scientist...

...I see God AS Nature; Spinoza's and Einstein's God. Neither are WRONG. Our interpretaions are.

[ultraist]

77. I like Spinoza's take on it and I'm not a scientist

God is no longer the transcendent creator of the universe who rules it via providence, but Nature itself, understood as an infinite, necessary, and fully deterministic system of which humans are a part. Humans find happiness only through a rational understanding of this system and their place within it.

[WiseButAngrySara]

81. Beautiful quote...Truth is always beautiful!...Thanks!....n/t

[fujiyama]

83. Yep

Like when the earthquake and tsunami in Asia occured, people wondered why people lived and contructed everything so close to the shore. People built civilization around the shore where it was always likely to get hit, obviously for the ability to fish and for commerce.

Sure enough the same thing happened in LA, MS, and AL...This is just another thing to deal with if you live on a coastal state. If you live on the west coast you deal with earthquakes (which are even worse in a sense because there is usually little or no warning). If you live in the north, you deal with freezing winters and snow storms. If you live in the plains states, you deal with tornados.

Every place has its advantages and drawbacks. That's just how nature works.

[rbjensen]

3. Hurricanes have uses.

Without them Florida would have no aquifer. The Everglades would dry up. And the Weather Channel would go out of business.

[Nikki Stone 1]

5. God must LOVE the Weather Channel

:)

[BlueEyedSon]

4. God is probably not really who or what you believe him/her/it to be

it's just too improbable that any human would get that right

[NNadir]

6. God has nothing to do with it. This hurricane is one of a series

exacerbated by global climate change.

As the carbon dioxide levels of the atmosphere rise, extreme weather events will become more and more common. No amount of prayer can stop this. It may, in fact, be impossible soon for human action to stop it.

[FreedomAngel82]

30. Exactly

People always are so quick to bring up God and/or blame God when in fact God isn't invovled in the weather 95% of the time (at least I believe anyways). Sometimes science is just science.

[lebkuchen]

8. I was 35 miles from an active volcano

it erupted--10 times bigger than Mt. St. Helens--constant earthquakes, ash falling with the water from the incoming typhooon (Mt. Pinatubo had created its own weather pattern).

I have never felt closer to nature, nor more frightened.

[phantom power]

9. You are confronting "the problem of evil."

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
-- Epicurus (341-270 BC)

[steve2470]

13. Excellent post, bravo ! nt

[phantom power]

23. There are two possible solutions to "the problem"

The first is to conclude that evil and/or suffering are part of a "Plan" which we humans are not privy to.

The second is to conclude that there is no god. This is the hypothesis I prefer, since "the problem" itself simply goes away, and I always favor the cleanest possible hypothesis.

Well, I suppose that a third possibility is to conclude that there is a god, and that god is indifferent or malevolent. It must not be very fun to believe that :-)

[Stuckinthebush]

37. Another possibility

There are multiple omniscient omnipotent beings (OOBs), and they duke it out. You see one OOB is a mean bastard and really only likes certain types of people or things. This OOB is also in control of the weather, and will occasionally make havoc just for kicks. Well, then another OOB, the kindly grandfatherly type, gets all pissed off, but because he can't control the weather directly, he does other things like make sure everybody gets out of the way on time. But then, another OOB who is league with the weather OOB gets all pissy because the nice OOB is messin' with her OOB, so then she thwarts nice OOBs plans by causing a massive pile up on I-10. Seeing the craziness, a 4th OOB comes in to the picture. This OOB just likes to make mischief, and he makes sure that the roof is blown off of the Superdome to scare people.

You see, there are a lot of OOBs that each has his or her own agenda. That is the best explanation for hurricanes and the aftermath.

Kind of like the Q on Star Trek.

One OOB just makes absolutely no sense.

Don't ya think?

[phantom power]

40. Good point! I forgot the "polytheistic solution."

I think the "problem of evil" is most intractable when you try to assume an omnipotent god. In the polytheistic scenario, no single god is omnipotent.

[Solon]

55. True, that's my belief anyways...

An omnipotent God would either be indifferent, or possibly not omniscience, in other words, can't predict his own actions.

[garthranzz]

61. But the problem doesn't go away

Because there's still evil and suffering. And even if you eliminate consciousness, which may eliminate evil, there's still suffering (i.e., animals, nature). Saying "that's just the way it is" doesn't make the problem go away - unless you claim that evil isn't a problem - which is an even greater problem!

[phantom power]

69. Evil doesn't go away, but that isn't "the problem"

"The problem" is: How can an omnipotent god allow evil (or suffering)? I don't believe in any god, so for me there is no such problem. Evil exists because people do bad things. Suffering exists because we cannot solve all the various problems that cause us suffering.

Adhering to my own ethical code, my goal is to reduce suffering and evil in the world, and hopefully not cause any while I'm at it.

[FrankChurch]

10. God scares me too.

You know that will be the first question I ask when I die: "whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy."

[AllyCat]

11. Sigh...I could make this a really long answer and still not answer your ?

In a class I took in college about searching for meaning using spiritual and philosophical principles, we talked a lot about suffering and why God allows it. We read the Book of Job and picked it apart pretty well for an undergrad group.

Our consensus was that God is not punishing us by allowing these disasters to happen. God is not testing us or trying to make us stronger. We come to a realization of God and find ways to talk about God by experiencing everything God has created. What we call bad is usually something painful. Maybe we aren't looking at things the right way by calling pain a bad thing.

I'm not saying we were a bunch of sado-masochists or anything, but look at some of the good things that come from pain and suffering. Others find a way to reach out to their fellows. Babies are born. Healing takes place.

No one is being punished by God for these disasters or any tragedy in our lives. Defeating the doctrine of retribution is a big part of why Jesus came to earth. But that's another story.

[steve2470]

15. Excellent post, thank you nt

[RevCheesehead]

18. Glad you kept the short answer.

I'd give in an A+. O8)

[rogerashton]

27. By Piet Hein,

A MAXIM FOR VIKINGS

Here is a fact
that should help you fight
a bit longer:
Things that don't act-
ually kill you outright
make you stronger.

However, things like hurricanes and cancer do kill people outright. Those who die are not stronger and do not gain any learning or increased firmness of their tested faith.

UNLESS you believe in the unchristian idea of reincarnation. (I don't, by the way). In that case it can make you stronger even if it does kill you outright.

Resurrection -- or the vulgar "heaven" -- doesn't work in this context, because it is a one-way door. Those who suffer, die and go to heaven would still be better off if the suffering were left out. They do not return to life where they might be better because stronger. Those who suffer, die and go to hell just lose whatever chance they might have had to turn it around.

You really ought to read Voltaire's "Candide" and see if your thinking holds up in face of the fun he makes of "everything is for some good end."

[FreedomAngel82]

32. Oh yes for sure

Last month my grandfather died of lung cancer and while I was really angry and sad about that I later found out that my grandfather had a stroke and he wouldn't have been the same so it was actually better that he had died and gone on to where he doesn't have to worry about the physical body any more. Oh and I'm a Christian who does believe in reincarnation. I know, I know, strange eh? Heh.

[AllyCat]

47. I do agree with another poster here that we create our own suffering

to a degree. That said, I don't believe the terminal sufferer doesn't learn anything because he or she dies anyway. There is frequently a learning that may only be known to the person, may be something shared with caregivers along the way, or written in a book from which others might learn.

Actually, as a Buddhist, I do believe in reincarnation. The scenario I wrote was part of a my classes required for a degree granted through a Catholic college. Despite being required, I learned quite a bit about my own spirituality from the class, even though I no longer consider myself a Christian. However, this class helped me understand a side of the teachings of Jesus that made a lot more sense than that of my Catholic upbringing. In the sense of what Christ taught us, it fits with Buddhism, and is nothing like what the "trademark" Christians of today seem to beat their chests over on the boob tube.

Out of seven students, one was Muslim, one Buddhist, one Christian, two atheists, and one Jewish. The seventh never said her beliefs. Yet this message of Job seemed to bring us all to the same conclusion and the professors let us come to it on our own.

[FreedomAngel82]

31. I agree

I think it's all in how you take the situation. It may look bad to someone else but is it bad to you?? I think the whole story of Job is pretty amazing and shows how we can get through bad situations. With Job his faith stayed strong and he never waivered. I think that's really admirable. This is a guy who lost everything.

[RaleighNCDUer]

46. Nobody punished?

In Job's story, Job is vindicated.

But his wife and kids were still dead. Just collateral damage, I suppose.

[AllyCat]

48. Is that punishment?

Are we all punished in the end because we all die?

The version of the story we read (don't remember the origin) saw him getting his family returned to him. Suppose there are many versions of the story.

[RaleighNCDUer]

49. In the bible he got a new wife and had a new batch of kids.

But it's about him. No thought about the wife and kids whose lives were taken to settle a bet.

Sure, the story is allegorical, but still the idea is that god just let it happen for purposes of his own. And Job's faith was rewarded for not blaming god not for what was outside god's control but for what god was actually doing. IOW, had he blamed god he would have been right.

That story is right up there with god sending bears to rend the children who teased his bald-headed prophet for my 'why the bible disgusts me'.

[tjdee]

53. What's so bad about being dead?

The dying process may be a nightmare (and I'm not sure what happened with Job's wife and kids, don't remember)--but actually being dead?

I'm guessing not so bad.

[garthranzz]

63. Except that Job doesn't refute the doctrine of retribution

and your theology contradicts Judaism, Islam and, from a totally separate perspective, atheism, Hinduism, etc, all of which understand the concept of perspective, painful experience, and the limited vs. the Infinite, etc.

Retribution for wrong (bad/evil) choices -or better, consequences therefrom - and suffering or painful experiences (Job) are not equivalent - and that's also part of the message of Job.

[AllyCat]

71. Job examined his life and could find nothing that he had done wrong

He could not understand why he was being punished and the three friends as well as others who came to visit him each suggested that he had done something. But there was nothing revealed that he had done wrong. Yet his suffering persisted (boils, family gone, famine). So the doctrine of retribution does not apply to Job. That is what we got from it.

Personally, I don't believe in the doctrine of retribution because a benevolent God does not punish us. I don't care what theology that contradicts. We punish ourselves and learn from our mistakes (hopefully).

In answering the OP about why God allows hurricanes, this was my answer. I personally, do not believe in a God that metes out punishment. The OP identified him/herself as a Christian and that is the perspective from which I answered the question.

[HadItUpToHere]

65. and what about the non-existence of a god?

i would hope that that possibility was discussed as well?

[AllyCat]

73. In relation to the story of Job, that isn't the point as God is a central

figure in the narrative. There was an atheist in the group who discussed this point, but from the perspective of the story, we were answering why God was punishing Job who had done nothing wrong.

[HadItUpToHere]

75. it wasn't the story of job that i was referring to-

it's the idea of a class-full of supposedly college-educated people still believing in fairy tales that scares the crap out of me.

[GCP]

12. There is no god

Once one has accepted that, life becomes much more understandable.

[HadItUpToHere]

68. LIFE becomes much more understandable-

but believers are a lot LESS understandable.

[GCP]

78. Indeed

It's like there's been a mass hypnosis going on for centuries. I was brought up with Christian values, and I still believe in Christian values, but I don't believe Christ was a god, neither do I believe there's a benign or malign god in the background effecting our lives.

[Dem Agog]

16. i used to wonder...

until i realized it would be easier for me not to believe in a god than to have to worship one that lets stuff like this happen...

[Cleita]

17. Why are some animals eaten and others the eaters?

Why does God permit this? Hard questions here and you need to question exactly what God means to you. It seems that eating and being eaten is biologically necessary even though it's a harsh way to achieve nature's balance. It's the same with storms, earthquakes, volcanoes exploding and other acts of the earth to maintain it's balance of gases, minerals and cleansing of the atmosphere.

We really live in a dangerous universe. I think your God does her best to try to keep you as safe as possible, but she must follow the laws of the universe as well. She has provided us and all the other species with as nice a home as she could. Just look at the other planets in the solar system if you don't believe that. Now we really need to respect the earth to keep it the nice home we were provided with or the earth tries to right the wrongs done to it to restore balance and sometimes those events are very violent.

[Tyranny_R_US]

19. You know, a president like Bush makes me wonder about God

You know, freerepublic makes me wonder about God.
You know, aggressive national guardsmen makes me wonder about God
You know, racism makes me wonder about God.
You know, rape makes wonder about God.
You know, death makes me wonder about God.

[crispini]

20. I used to be a Christian.

But I was never able to solve the problem of why a benevolent God allows human suffering. A friend of mine assures me that C.S. Lewis addresses this in the book "The Problem of Pain." However, I met him a bit too late to salvage my Christian faith, and I haven't read this book.

I became a Buddhist partly because Buddhism solves this problem much more neatly. There is no benevolent God. For that matter, there is no God. The Divine Principle of the Universe is not human, nor does it have any human characteristics. The Buddha is the universe. All of it, including the ugly parts. It's like the Tao, yin and yang, pleasure and pain, suffering and joy. Somehow this gives me a great deal of comfort.

[FreedomAngel82]

35. That's how God is as well

God shows us in the Bible that even though you're a Christian that doesn't mean you get a free pass card on anything with hard ships and trials or that He is to blame. We have freewill so a lot of the times I think we bring pain and heartache onto ourseleves and whatnot. It's hard to know the future and we can only live in the here and now. God is everything as well. He's love, He's discipline, He's pain, He's the flower that I pick from the yard etc. God isn't human either. In the Old Testament, I can't remember where now, someone asked God who God was and all that was said was: I am. Now one thing that confuses me is how Jesus always called God "father". :shrug:

[crispini]

42. If someone had told me ...

that the Bible is filled with ANALOGIES, not the literal truth -- I'd probably still be a Christian.

[expatriot]

21. This is the quintessential "problem of evil"

If God is omnipotent, having complete control over the universe He created, then everything he created and its actions are under His Control. If he knew the Omega before the Alpha, he knew full well the effects of all his creations, including Lucifer and what would happen in the Garden with the Tree. So he can not be omnipotent (all powerful) and a benevolent God at the same time.

If he truly is a benevolent God, then he is not the Master of the Universe.

Most people want it both ways. The way I see it, the only way that he would be worthy of my worship and respect if he DID exist were to be both. But if he is omnipotent and created the whole tragedy of humanity and the universe thing as some entertainment for himself like a kid with an ant farm then I say fuck him.

I have always said that if I knew by some divine sign or something like that that He existed as represented by the Bible I would surrender myself to a life of unselfish servitude and deny myself all earthly pleasures, eat bland food, have myself castrated and work tirelessly for the poor, etc. but every night I would go to my cot in the boiler room of some community center where i volunteered and CURSE Him and His Divinity. This would be done out of principle, that I would rather suffer an eternity in the tortures of hell while denying myself all carnal pleasure and mortal leisure than be rewarded with heaven for merely submitting to his Meglomaniac Design.

[FreedomAngel82]

38. The thing people forget

is God gave us freewill. God did not make us robots. This is how there was Lucifer/Satan. Satan got greedy with power so God casted him (Satan) away since Satan was a trouble maker. If God did ever take control of the universe and this planet and plane we're on it would take away our freewill and the grand design. I would rather have my freewill then not have it. It reminds me of that episode of "Charmed" where the sisters make the planet not have freewill. Here is the episode you can read. It's really interesting and a look at what it would be like if God did have control over this world as we wish: http://www.thecharmedones.com/Charmageddon.htm

[mvd]

22. As another liberal Christian..

My belief in God does not waver, but I do not profess to know all the answers. I don't worry about it much - what will be will be.

[FreedomAngel82]

24. I too am a liberal Christian and do sometimes wonder

but also you have to remember that just because something happens such as something as powerful as Katrina doesn't mean it's from God per se. It might just be nature in general. How do we know it's from God?

[MoonRiver]

25. Karma

Not exactly a Christian belief, but it makes sense to me.

[FreedomAngel82]

39. I do believe in karma

I also believe in karma. I believe that things come back to you. It's just how life is really. Nothing supernatural about it in my opinion. If I'm lazy and don't study for a test my karma will be I'd fail. :shrug: Same thing like with Bush. It might not happen in this lifetime but it'll happen to him whether in the afterlife with God or in another lifetime he may have.

[MoonRiver]

44. When I was 12, my mother, a lifelong Methodist,

told me reincarnation made sense to her. That was my first introduction into the concepts of Eastern religion. Many people think it's more logical to have numerous opportunities to evolve into a better being, along with experiencing the consequences of previous actions, both good and bad, than getting one shot and you're in or out.

[johnnie]

26. My short answer would be

The soul never dies. Suffering is the human side of us, not the spiritual.

[eallen]

28. There are two possible answers to this.

(1) Katrina is God's vengeance. I predict it will be less than two weeks before some preachers are explaining that Katrina hit New Orleans, because of its licentiousness, and hit Biloxi, because of its casinos. See? It all makes sense.

(2) It's physics. The gulf coast is susceptible to hurricanes. Cities and towns in the low-lying coastal regions are vulnerable. New Orlean's particular geography is particularly bad. That's the fault of neither god nor the French Quarter, but just an accident of how the city evolved.

:hippie:

[Stuckinthebush]

33. Maybe its a good reason not to believe in God

Evidence against an omniscient omnipotent being (OOB).

[crispini]

34. Yeah, I believe in a divine principle in the universe.

But an omniscient omnipotent *being,* I have a problem with.

[moof]

36. and yet people wonder how a fool can be in the white house

[Booster]

41. For the people who truly believe in God's wrath, if the natural

disasters that have happened in the last couple of years aren't God's wrath, then what would be considered his wrath? I'm serious, because if people truly believed in God I would think that they would believe he is totally pissed right now. Explain please.

[GoneOffShore]

45. The Invisible Pink Unicorn

has no reason to do anything.
Natural phenomena are just that - happenstance, part of the chaos of the universe.
"God" is a construct to explain the universe to the superstitious, not an actual force.

[Sequoia]

50. Why are you listening to Pat Robertson on the 700 Club?

Must be a part of God's Intelligent Design. Were you home-schooled or something?

[steve2470]

51. Umm....I have two degrees. And you ? nt

[NervousRex]

52. Bob Jones...

or Liberty University?

[steve2470]

54. a state university, both of them...

the inference that to be a liberal Christian is akin to ignorance and/or stupidity is ILLOGICAL. Flame away if you wish, no more replies from me.

[Telly Savalas]

56. I found their arguments to be very convincing.

Insightful and thought-provoking.

:silly:

[NervousRex]

57. Please Sir...

applying the wisdom of your two degrees, illustrate the LOGIC of believing in things such as: invisible cloud beings, dead people coming back to life, ritual cannibalism...etc. AND the point in praying for GOD to save or protect humans from a storm that HE sent. Certainly an astute and highly educated person with two degrees such as yourself can explain these things to an idiot with only one degree from a state university.

[Lilith Velkor]

58. God designed Earth so that the fan comes on when it gets too hot.

I'm agnostic but it sounds like a plausible explanation.

[steve2470]

59. It always amazes me that SOME non-Christians want to piss on "our" parade

I'm damn sure not going to piss on the non-Christians parade. I respect all faiths and atheists and agnostics, etc..........Geeze louise.

[HadItUpToHere]

70. actually, it's you christians that are pissing on "our" parade-

this is supposed to be a POLITICAL webboard, not a religious one-
there are plenty of webboards devoted to discussing the various fairytales of various religions...why do people feel a need to drag that crap into political forums?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

60. Hurricanes existed for millions of years before there were people

How many dinosaurs died in hurricanes, I wonder.

They're part of the way the world works.

The last time a hurricane hit the Gulf coast, I remember seeing a news article that stated that the plants and animals in the Southeast coastal regions had evolved in the presence of frequent hurricanes, so even if individual animals or trees were killed, the ecosystem as a whole would survive.

Natural phenomena do what they do and have always done, and sometimes, sad to say, people are in the way. :-(

[titoresque]

62. how about we're all

god, even the hurricane?

[msrbly]

64. Why do you think you should be allowed to understand?

You are only one human on a planet where billions of humans have passed before you and will follow after you. It's not all about you. You don't get to understand why God allows hurricanes to happen or understand how he makes a complete human being or grows a tree. Sorry, but I'm a liberal Christian too and I don't get to understand either. God doesn't owe us an explanation.

[mitchum]

66. God works in mysterious...and incredibly fucked up ways

[rniel]

67. Maybe look into Global Warming instead n/m

n/m

[The Straight Story]

74. People choose to live in such areas :)

God gave em a choice and they took the trade off for nice weather versus occassional hurricane.

[Modem Butterfly]

76. Why did God allow this to happen?

Below is a snippet from a very large essay called "An Auschwitz Alphabet". It was written by the grandson of Holocaust survivors in an attempt to come to terms with one part of the Holocaust. I think of this portion of the essay when the question comes up about why a supreme being would allow, and even create, situations and phenomena that hurt people. Katrina and the Holocaust are not at all comparable, except for the fact that they both beg the question, "Why did God allow this to happen"

http://www.spectacle.org/695/essay.html

There is no God

The most important lesson one can learn from Auschwitz is that God does not exist. Occam's Razor tells us not to search for a complicated explanation when a simple one is available. Ever since Auschwitz, theologians have had to go through major contortions to hold onto an image of God. There are only two possibilities: either God caused (or at least permitted) the destruction of the Jews, the Gypsies and the other victims, or God does not care. The first approach is unacceptable for two reasons. It means that entire groups of people may be indicted based on race or other identity, which is contrary to everything I believe. And it makes God out to be a mass murderer. On the other hand, if God does not care, why believe in Him? An uncaring God is either a cruel and negligent one, or, even worse, a God who is unaware of humans and their plight. This latter--the God of Spinoza and of Freud's psychotic Dr. Schreber--is really just a metaphysical formulation bearing little or no relationship to the popular idea of God as a being who intervenes in human history.

Although there are only two possibilities, there is a third approach to retaining belief in God: shut up and stop asking questions. Interestingly, this is the message not of God but the devil to the knight in Bergman's The Seventh Seal. Probably, the majority of those who believe in a Jewish or Christian God today-- at least I hope it is the majority--simply do not confront God with the question of how He could let Auschwitz happen. But this approach is not acceptable to those who believe that there is no area off-limits to human questioning.

By far the simplest explanation for Auschwitz is that there is no God to intervene in human affairs. No deity exists to care what we do to each other. All compassion and all hatred in the human universe is ours. We are on our own.

[GCP]

80. Bingo - thank you

I feel as if I'm over a sickness now that I've fully embraced my atheism.
Too bad this most military and powerful country the world has ever known is run by and populated by people who are under the delusion that they are right and everybody else is wrong and damned, therefore they can do what the hell they like because God's on their side.


Oh my name it is nothin'
My age it means less
The country I come from
Is called the Midwest
I's taught and brought up there
The laws to abide
And that land that I live in
Has God on its side.

Oh the history books tell it
They tell it so well
The cavalries charged
The Indians fell
The cavalries charged
The Indians died
Oh the country was young
With God on its side.

Oh the Spanish-American
War had its day
And the Civil War too
Was soon laid away
And the names of the heroes
I's made to memorize
With guns in their hands
And God on their side.

Oh the First World War, boys
It closed out its fate
The reason for fighting
I never got straight
But I learned to accept it
Accept it with pride
For you don't count the dead
When God's on your side.

When the Second World War
Came to an end
We forgave the Germans
And we were friends
Though they murdered six million
In the ovens they fried
The Germans now too
Have God on their side.

I've learned to hate Russians
All through my whole life
If another war starts
It's them we must fight
To hate them and fear them
To run and to hide
And accept it all bravely
With God on my side.

But now we got weapons
Of the chemical dust
If fire them we're forced to
Then fire them we must
One push of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When God's on your side.

In a many dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ
Was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.

So now as I'm leavin'
I'm weary as Hell
The confusion I'm feelin'
Ain't no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
If God's on our side
He'll stop the next war.

Bob Dylan.

[Sequoia]

82. Thank you.

I have that PBS book about Auschwitz and I don't want to depress myself by reading it. I'll just wait till winter so I can be more depressed along with all the rain and darkness. I'm feeling "sunny" right now with this daylight savings time.

[LisaL]

84. There is no god.

[lynne]

85. Culling the herd?

That's my opinion of natural disasters and disease. The strong and smart survive. The genes of those who can't make it are culled from the herd.

We're all just animals when you take the clothes off.