These looting stories are doing a GREAT job

[redqueen]

of separating the have somes from the have nots... all to the delight of the haves and the have mores.

Great job slurping it up, dumbasses.

FOCUS! PEOPLE ARE DYING!

:banghead:

[tjdee]

1. Those poor black people are scary criminals!!

That's what's getting reinforced, you're right. No stories about the people who are helping each other, though.

The mainstream media is a riot. You'd think they'd focus more on the damage and who's going to pay for it/rebuild/etc.

[redqueen]

2. Why would they do that?

That'd get people thinking of positive things... much better to have us peons and a-few-checks-away-from-being-peons at each others' throats.

[stray cat]

3. I also have trouble with people looting while people die

Looters can be both the haves and have nots. They can hurt small family businesses that people have evacuated to be safe and keep people from evacuating next time there is an emergency. Filling your own pockets while your neighbors are in danger doesn't qualify as a virtue in my book.

[redqueen]

4. Can we focus on the people in need?

And stop the rethuglican hate fest?

PLEASE?!

:puke:

[earth mom]

10. I second that!!!

Greed and money money money are RETHUG values, not liberal ones!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:puke:

[Igel]

19. Who's greed are we talking about

when we discuss looting?

Loot others, as you would have others loot you?

[earth mom]

41. People are DYING!

Looting should be the least of anyones worries right now. Except for rethugs of course. :sarcasm:

[Igel]

74. Precisely. n/t

[tjdee]

5. Self-preservation....

I'm sure Mr. Joe isn't going "Gee, Miss Jones died. I'd better totally ignore the fact that I haven't had food in my house for a week and this store is wide open without electricity..."

I don't condone looting, but I find it hard to come down on people for it.

It *is* the havenots. You think some suburban doctor is stuck in downtown NO looting a grocery store?

Really?

[redqueen]

6. It happens in EVERY disaster

Is it always the lead story?

Is it always SO eagerly latched onto?

:grr:

[SoCalDem]

51. Media loves the shopping cart in any event

poor homeless people...icon?? shopping cart
looters...icon?? shopping cart


shopping carts could be our national logo. What were we advised to do post 9-11? shop

what drives our economy?? not manufacturing... shopping..

It's our national pastime..

the analogy is not lost on the national psyche..

"normal" people shop in airconditioned clean stores...to bolster the economy and salve the wounds

"sub-normal" people use the almighty shopping cart to tote dirty belongings or to steal tuna & waterlogged diapers from god-fearing businessmen

:sarcasm:

[sundog]

13. i'm with you here

i'm not sure a lot of people understand the desperation of not being able to escape the cycle of poverty... generations upon generations of poverty...

i was already on a thread that got locked... but it's easy to separate those who have been there from those who have not...

[Roxy66]

65. Justifying Looting is a crock!!!! Thats not in my definition of "Liberal"

[sundog]

68. which clearly shows you got the gist of the whole thread

:eyes:

[catnhatnh]

7. Sorry,

if I and my family are in town AND in need AND every store is closed...I may feel the need for amends later...but feeling remorse later means I made it....

[Swamp Rat]

8. .

:cry:

[redqueen]

9. I'm sorry.

I guess I'm not helping any with this thread. :(

[Swamp Rat]

20. You are doing fine redqueen.

:hug: Please speak up... I'll listen.

[Deja Q]

11. Just like how they said this AM about the people in the dome worried about

their PROPERTY.

I'm more sickened by property, apart from what I need to do my job and expand my abilities, every day.

[redqueen]

12. We're in an "ownership society", don'tcha know.

*sigh*

[mondo joe]

15. For a lot of people their PROPERTY is the only thing they own,

if they even fully own it, and its damage or loss can break them.

It's not only GW Bush and Bill Gates who own property.

[redqueen]

16. And some own nothing... they rent... and what they do own

is what they put in their mouths, wear on their backs, or spend getting to and from work.

[mondo joe]

21. Right - so it's fine to take from people on the edge as long as you're

a little worse off.

Nice.

[tjdee]

23. Focusing on grocery stores for a minute,

what are they going to do with rotting food? Will leaving it there somehow save them money?

[mondo joe]

25. Focusing on grocery stores, food isn't all that's being looted.

And most grocery food isn't given to rotting.

And if someone has no alternative in this circumstance but to steal to survive I will not begrudge them that food.

But I don't think that's a good description of every looter.

[redqueen]

27. Power's out, dude.

Care to try to rationalize your argument with another line of thought?

Or is that the best you can do?

:grr:

[sundog]

28. no, he's not done yet

:eyes:

[mondo joe]

31. What does that have to do with people looting things other

than food? Or non-perishable food?

And look back on the sub thread - it was about people in the Dome worried about their property. And I - on-topic - pointed out that those people aren't wealthy but probably just getting by.

So what's your problem with them?

[redqueen]

32. Who says I have a problem with them?

You're very good at using rightwing debate tactics, you know that?

You're HELPING them to further the divide... to foster mistrust.

For that... well... I'd better bite my tongue.

[mondo joe]

35. I don't know. It was your response to the post about those in the dome

worried about their property that went into the "ownership society".

I'm pointing out that ownership is not exclusive to the wealthy and a lot of people with very little have good cause to be worried about their property.

That even includes small business owners.

[redqueen]

39. Because the MSM / Operation Mockingbird

is not just innocently reporting about average, workaday people and the struggles they face.

There is a REASON they're playing this up now more than ever before.

You're pointing out facts... I recognize that. However, it seems to me that you're not seeing the larger picture here. The MSM is at this very moment framing the situation... to what end?

Why do you think they might reduce coverage the stories that are normally reported in favor of ramping up coverage of stories that get people riled up in a rage about the "supposedly poor who steal things they don't need"?

THINK!

[earth mom]

45. Exactly-they are portraying the poor as CRIMINALS, NOT VICTIMS!

That way, * Co will look just lovely for doing VERY LITTLE before, during and after! :grr:

:puke:

[mondo joe]

52. Oh come on. I've seen plenty of "the victims of Katrina".

This is just more senationalism.

It's not a good thing, but I don't think it's part of a plan to make GW look good.

[earth mom]

58. Who benefits? That IS the question. nt

[redqueen]

24. Is that what I said?

Why are you swallowing their bait?

As I've said above... this happens in EVERY disaster... some much less severe than this one... now THINK:

WHY is it being played up so much this time?

WHY is it so easy for so many to latch onto, while people are STILL DYING AT THIS VERY MINUTE!

THINK!

IMO, you're being herded.

[mondo joe]

26. It's played up every time. Why are people defending looters

even though we know not every looter is taking essential food?

In another thread we had someone defend stealing a plasma TV because they might really need the money they could sell it for in the weeks after Katrina.

[redqueen]

29. Oh, is it?

That's bullshit and you know it.

Right... not ALL the looters are getting basic necessities. But the fact that you know that SOME are only weakens your argument further.

As I've said above... FOCUS.

[mondo joe]

33. I'm focused. It's been 1 day. Some people are stealing ATMS.

Some people do great things in crisis. Some exploit.

What would you like me to FOCUS on? People dying? I can multi-task enough to remember that and to disapprove of exploitation.

[redqueen]

34. Sure... disapprove all you want.

I disapprove as well... just like I disapprove of gangs and the mafia and neo-cons.

But as I keep trying to tell you... people are dying. Right now. Drowning. Being crushed. Are you unable to put things into perspective, or do you simply refuse to? And if it's the latter... why? Please, please... for the love of your fellow people... most of whom are good people... explain why.

[mondo joe]

38. Yes, I know people are dying. I can know that and discuss other

things at the same time.

Or do you think if I think really really hard about nothing but dying people they will be healed?

[redqueen]

40. Don't be silly.

You're only further weakening your already weak argument.

The FACT is that these stories are being played up this time.

You still don't show any willingness at ALL to ask yourself WHY.

Sad, really.

[mondo joe]

49. The why: because people go for sensationism.

That's not news, is it?

And I don't see how it comes at the expense of the dying.

[earth mom]

46. Your compassion is underwhelming. n/t

[sundog]

36. whose exploitation?

there are two sides to every coin

[mondo joe]

48. There are probably more than two sides.

But I am not prepared to excuse one exploitation because of another.

Small business owners are often not better positioned to have their good stolen than anyone else.

[tjdee]

42. Don't get hung up on the length of time.

Hate to add to the pileon, LOL, but one day isn't significant. The life situation of these people is.

If Jean Valjean for example, has had nothing but ramen noodles to eat for a month, and by providence/hurricane/whatever, there's a chance to get some meat and some other items, so his stomach is full for a few days...

[tjdee]

37. That's a possibility, though.

I personally think the plasma tv thief should not be allowed to escape--but I can certainly understand his/her taking it. These people aren't doctors and lawyers who already have two/three plasma tvs, and they probably could sell it and get some money to get buy on.

IMO there's a difference between stealing plasma tvs and taking food/toilet paper/etc.--although I guess it can all be sold.

[Roxy66]

67. Thank you for making a good point

[earth mom]

43. Putting PEOPLE FIRST should be the law of the land...

but HELL NO!

Instead it's things, property, money, greed. Just disgusting!

:puke:

[redqueen]

44. It's too easy...

far too easy for them to do this.

We love our stuff more than each other.

For that, we deserve whatever we get from these bastards, really. Too many of us have bought into their mindset.

[earth mom]

47. Stuff-possessions, money, property etc can't love you or take care

of you. People often don't get that until it's too late.

You can't take it with you. Rich or Poor.

[Roxy66]

69. Why arent these people out saving other people..instead of stealing

[tjdee]

17. The people in the Superdome aren't rich people.

They're worried about their clothes, where they live.


The reporters put the word "property" on it, but I bet Sally Simmons or whatever is just worried about who's going to buy her kids new clothes if the hurricane just destroyed them all.

These aren't lawyers wondering about their summer cottages.

[theHandpuppet]

14. Thanks!

Wouldn't it be a better focus of our energies if we all concentrated on helping those in need right now? Let's keep those disaster assistance threads kicked!

[Cleita]

18. I refuse to watch the cable news channels.

How many of the dead are African Americans and how many are white or other? I'm just curious.

[bribri16]

22. I posted something on this in a fit of rage after hearing a report on CNN.

sorry, I didn't see your post first.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4499992

[redqueen]

30. Please, don't apologize.

Your thread elicited a very nice post. Hit me hard.

We all need to speak up... we're being trained to distrust each other.

It sickens and saddens and angers me more than words can possibly describe.

[-..__...]

50. I'm glad someone is "focused" enough to see through the BS.

:sarcasm:

For the life of me, I can't understand this urge among some here to dismiss the looters as anything other than the rotten thieves that they really are?

I'm sorry to burst the bubbles of some of the daydreamers here, but
whom's fooling whom here with the BS excuses that these ass-hats are some sort of noble latter day Robin Hood types stealing to survive or take care of their families?

"Oh, but it's Winn Dixie and they deserve to be robbed in broad daylight because they exploit the poor". Stealing is still stealing, but because poor people may be involved it can be condoned.

What utter crap and nonsense.

And as I posted in another thread on the same subject...

Yes, regretfully people are dying, but luckily not nearly at the magnitude that had originally been predicted.

Those that are still in life endangering situations still need all the help they can get, and that would include the assistance of the fine "looters" of New Orleans.

If they have that much energy, time and enthusiasm for breaking down store fronts to score a few six-packs of warm beer, cigarettes and potato chips, certainly they have the same energy, time and enthusiasm to assist in the relief effort. I wouldn't count on that though. Most thieves are to selfish to think about anyone other than themselves (unless there was some money to be made).

Anyhow, just to appease the apologists and hand-wringers here, lets use all available resources in NOLA in the relief effort. If that means pulling police and other crowd control measures from stopping the looters, then fine... do what needs to be done.

However, once the crisis has passed to a degree where life threatening situations have been defused, there should be a genuine effort by police to arrest and charge any looters with whatever crime they're guilty of. Since the media is so "focused" on this, I'm certain that there's plenty of video footage to at least identify and arrest some of the thieves. Even if it's only a handful, it shouldn't matter.

[bread_and_roses]

55. when people have been shut-out from the benefits of a social system....

...they- or at least some/maybe many - probably tend not to internalize the mores/standards/orders of that social order.

We in this Country have allowed the poor - especially minorities - in our inner cities to live in near Third World conditions. No jobs. Sub-standard housing. Sub-standard health care. Sub-standard schools. Inadequate Public Transportation to get to/from a job if you are lucky enough to find one. "Welfare" support at maybe half the Federal Poverty level - maybe less than that. No way for most to earn money except dealing, and among African Americans - what is it, 1/4? - the young men and increasing numbers of young women cycling through the Jail/Prison system.

When people have no hope, no chance, they have little reason to abide by the norms of a system that has ignored them for at least since the Reagan era. Not that they were high on the priortity list before, but it's been worse since Reagan.

This is not an "excuse." It does not imply that all those who are looting are doing so simply to eat/drink for duration of the crisis. It does not imply that they are all "good" people in bad circumstances. Of the people I've met who've come out of such circumstances (and I've known and worked with a good few) many are not "good" by any defination of the word. But then, how could they be? We've had at least two generations growing up in these conditions.

It is simply to suggest that - as we all know - social policy has consequences. When a White felon can get a job more readily than an African American with no record, there are social consequences. When the Society does not address the problems created when working class jobs disappear, there are social consequences. We have been indifferent to the plight of poor inner city residents - how is it we then that we are surprised when they are indifferent to "our" social norms?

[-..__...]

56. Thank you.

That's a fair, reasonable, thought out response.

While I accept the fact that there are people out there with nothing to lose or could care less about what are acceptable social norms are, there is a limit as to what is an acceptable response from the "mainstream" society should be.

Cheering these people on, or supporting them because the business that are being pillaged might happen to be corporate or chain stores that can write off or absorb the loss is what bothers me... as if it makes it more acceptable.

While I agree that there are more important things to address in the NOLA situation (namely the saving of lives and recovery of the infrastructure), it doesn't mean that a breakdown of society/law and order should be tolerated or ignored.

[bread_and_roses]

57. But it sounds as if the MSM emphasis simply reinforces the status quo

I admit, I am not watching so am operating only from what is in this thread.

But how much time, for instance, are they giving to the effect the loss of the wetlands is having on the scope of destruction? Or poverty/unemployment stats in the city of NO? (I had no idea off the top of my head, so I did a quick search: "American Community Survey Profile" from the 2003 Census Bureau figures show at 16% "all families" but an appalling 32% among "related children under 18).

Now, I realize that looters are "news" and one cannot expect comprehensive social analysis in every sound-bite. And it is quite possible that some of those looters are not among the disenfranchised and oppressed populations that I spoke of - it's not unheard of for people in comfortable circumstances to take advantage of opportunity without regard for the law either.

But I think that some of the responses here that might be seen as "cheering on" or "supporting" looting are responses to two phenonema - one, the ongoing demonization or at the least blaming of the poor for the entirety of their situation and a - uncharted waters here and a mere speculation on my part - collective unconscious guilt for Institutionalized Racism and for what we have allowed to happen to our poor in our rich, rich society.

And thank you, btw, for your polite response.

[HEyHEY]

53. YEah, I noticed last night as they should a line of people

Who couldn't afford to evacuate... that it seemed they all shared the same skin colour.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HEyHEY]

60. If your savings literally amount to $0

Good luck planning ahead and getting out of town..walk? So you get stuck literally in the middle of the hurricane in the middle of some field just outside of town?

[-..__...]

61. Hey...

like I posted; stubborn dumb ass that I am, I probably would have stood my ground and stayed there.

And given the warnings and possible consequences, even $50.00 worth of bottled water or canned goods could last me awhile until help arrived.

But fuck that pre-planning shit; why not just stay here and hunker down, wait for the storm to pass, and steal all the free goodies that I can (whether I actually need them or not).

[HEyHEY]

62. When you make $5.15 an hour $50 bucks doesn't just fall from the sky

Especially if you have kids to feed.

Look, the people stealing stereos and stuff, yeah, they're scum... but I have nothing against people running into the supermarket to get food.

[sundog]

71. yeah, damn those irresponsible ghetto folk

am i getting warm?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

72. Yes you are

Not that he will admit it of course.

[sundog]

70. ding ding ding

:7

[Nikki Stone 1]

59. It diverts our attention from the National Guard shortage questions

nt

[HEyHEY]

63. So Bush ordered the looting?

[rman]

73. pardon?

[BlueStateGirl]

64. I think it calls attention to the shortage. There are not enough

There are not enough Guardsmen to help prevent looting in the aftermath of the storm. OR to help pluck people off their roofs.

[expatriot]

66. I saw pictures of women "looting" a Winn-Dixie....

you know, luxury items like bottled water and food. It was clear this is what they had with them as they were running around. The local (white) anchor actually said of the pictures "This reminds me Watts years ago." Now, THAT is racist... no getting around that.