Why Are We Tearing Each Other Apart....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

Nobody is condemning folks who steal food or medicine because they are starving or sick and have no means to pay....Such a moral absolutism would suggest an emotional development that ended at age twelve or so....


And nobody is disputing this is a horrible tragedy... A catastrophe.... A disaster.....

[Lex]

1. It's the same old "Blame DU'ers first" crowd.

Happens every time . . .

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. I Don't Understand....

I am opposed to "binary" thinking that disallows nuance....

On the looting I distinguish between stealing out of necessity and stealing out of expedience;the former is mala prohibitum and the latter is mala per se....


As to the extent of damage unfortunately it appears the losses are worse than inintial reports indicated but not as bad as some anticipated......

[ultraist]

22. DSB: You need to take it a step further

This tragedy highlights a lot of what is wrong with our society. Those being affected the most are the oppressed and marginalized.

And keep in mind, people are genuinely upset and pained to see the suffering that has been caused by the hurricane. It's difficult to read stories such as the one about the five year old child who was found alone, not far from his dead grandparents and see 40,000 plus home under water. We have one DUer who has lost everything. We have another who has not been able to contact his mother in the area. We have others who don't know the extent of damage to their homes. This IS a horrific situation.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. I Am Not Diminishing The Tragedy...

I just don't see how comparing one tragedy to another tragedy is productive...


There's a Jewish saying that a person who saves the life of one person saves the life of the world entire and a Muslim saying that a person who unjustifiably takes the life of a person takes the life of the world entire....


I guess that means all life is precious and it makes no sense to compare tragedies....

[ultraist]

28. Who is comparing one tragedy to another?

I'm not sure why you said you aren't diminishing the tragedy but I'll address it. You did say that it 'wasn't as bad as first anticipated.' That does come off as though you are somewhat diminishing the disaster.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

46. This Gets Tricky...

At first there were people who were saying the storm portends the end of New Orleans... Then initial reports indicated New Orleans would be spared the storm's direct impact... Then more recent reports indicated that a number of levies have been breached and the initial reports were wrong...


Thanks to advance notice the loss of human life has been somewhat mitigated but to someone who lost a loved one it is the biggest tragedy in the world-the mother of all tragedies....

[Daphne08]

2. I don't know, but I've never been so distressed as I am

right now.

I may leave this board and I may change my political affiliation to Independent.

I refuse to be allied with people who defend looting! No, I'm not talking about taking a loaf of bread if you're hungry either.

I'm talking about looting! Maybe I'm just too old, but in good conscience, I cannot be a part of this.

[skypilot]

3. Oh no...

...what did I miss? Or do I even want to know?

[dogday]

5. I am ignorant, what is everyone saying?

[SheepyMcSheepster]

7. just because a few or more vocal doesn't mean they speak for all of us

i have not commented on the looting or even participated in any of these threads.

per usual, don't expect that one thread represents all of DU.

[intheflow]

8. Don't leave, Daphne.

DU has 75,000+ registered users. Even if 10-20,000 are freepers or have been tombstoned, you're stil only hearing from a very few. A jerky few. An insensitive few. But just a very few.

The rest of us are as distressed by the bickering as you are. :pals:

[Pirate Smile]

20. I'm avoiding those threads. Just because a couple people do that doesn't

mean it represents most people here.

Maybe we need to do a poll. Most people certainly know the difference between starving and stealing bread v. stealing a TV because you think you can get away with it. Huge difference. No comparison.

I don't have time to do a poll if anyone else wants to start one. Otherwise, like I said above, I'm just avoiding those fights.

[jobycom]

26. What the hell is looting? There is no more city! I don't think people

realize that. Looting isn't even a consideration right now. AMerica is pretty damned twisted if their biggest concern right now is looting. Even the mayor of New Orleans said last night that the looting wasn't a big priority--people couldn't go anywhere to sell anything, anyways.

80% of New Orleans is under water. The entire city of Slidell is rumored to be gone. Bodies are floating everywhere, numbering in the hundreds from eye-witness accounts. The numbers may be in the thousands. Bridges connecting New Orleans to most of the world are gone. Water won't be pumped out of this city for months. Electricity won't be restored for weeks. Commerce is dead. There is no economy in New Orleans. Nobody is buying or selling anything. No one will have jobs or homes to put anything they loot. The stores that are being looted may not exist anymore. Why the hell would anyone even worry about this? These are deck chairs on the Titanic.

I'm disgusted with much of DU right now, too. This could be as great a catastrophe as Galveston Island, and people are developing conspiracy theories on the media's silence, and blasting political enemies, and talking about global warming. I don't even know if my parents are alive, and I have to listen to people babble about the supposed "Casualty Coverup." Someone last night was telling me on here that they had family in St. Tammany Parish, and now we are hearing extreme stories from St. Tammany. Looting is just not even an issue right now.

[Misunderestimator]

36. Oh for god's sake.... stop saying that we defend looting.

Please stop pretending that people here are defending looting. We are defending people taking food and water. You are pretending that we are defending looting, because you might have seen one or two people defend it.

STOP IT!

[BikeWriter]

37. You may have noticed my own stand on looting...

Please don't let a radical few cause you to leave. :(

[lonestarnot]

52. Oh for Pete's sake!

[calico1]

4. I don't mind polite disagreement but

there was one poster who let out a stream of profanities against another poster they disagreed with. Why do people feel the need to do this? I just don't get it.

[Pirate Smile]

15. Has it been deleted? It sounds like it should be and I hope people

alerted on it.

[elperromagico]

6. Because we're no good at tearing the other sons-of-bitches apart.

We're eating our own now.

[intheflow]

12. We need to resist "eating our own."

Leave that to the Freepers and the neocons.

[rbjensen]

16. We're a family under stress

and even the most loving of families have a rough time in emergencies. No, we aren't in N. O. but we see it. We hurt for them. We wish we could lighten their load and we feel helpless so we bitch at each other.

I can't condone looting as a political statement as in "bring down the Man" but in a disaster when the store is blasted open and you can use the stuff to help you survive, then that fits within my personal morality.

Remember those stories about Starbucks charging $2 for water after the WTC went down? Anybody know if those were true? Kind of the opposite of the whole looting issue.

[rodeodance]

17. our laws allow for 'extenuating circumstances"---surely that will come

into play in this case. There is a marked difference between those to steal food in a disaster and those who steal electronics.

Both are stealing, but......

[QC]

10. That's all we do around here anymore.

There was a time when I thought DU would be a great tool for Democratic unity, but it's become exactly the opposite. The cranks have taken over, and they would rather direct their venom at us than at the Republicans.

[theHandpuppet]

11. The number of "looting" threads is disheartening

I wish we could have as many threads about disaster relief and how best to help these folks out.

[crispini]

19. Why not post some of those kinds of threads?

Or kick the ones you like. Don't participate in the ones you don't like. Kick this one, it could use it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4504276

[ultraist]

13. There are a few here who are foaming at the mouth to blame the victim

And it is very upsetting to others. We know that NO is 67% Black and has a very high poverty rate so when we see images of demonizing Blacks and read self righteous, blame the victim comments about how "stealing is always bad," it's maddening and painful.

For fucks sake, people need to take a long hard look at who is the REAL perpetrator here and ask some questions. WHY was there no plan to evacuate everyone? WHY is the poverty rate in that area so high? WHY do programs that help the marginalized keep getting cut, such as the hurricane and flood disaster program, * just cut?

It will be the people who can't afford insurance who will suffer the most. It will be the people who cannot afford to stay in a hotel or move who will suffer the most. The poor people. WHERE is the compassion?

I, for one am sick to death of seeing the image of the "evil, theiving, savage Black man" on television. ENOUGH ALREADY. This madness needs to stop.

[raccoon]

18. Those are the questions we should be asking.

"people need to take a long hard look at who is the REAL perpetrator here and ask some questions. WHY was there no plan to evacuate everyone? WHY is the poverty rate in that area so high? WHY do programs that help the marginalized keep getting cut, such as the hurricane and flood disaster program, * just cut?
"

[rodeodance]

23. we see/hear so little of the conditions INside the Dome right now--

and hear and see coverage of looting.

About 20, 000 people inside a hot bubble, trash piling up, toilets not flushing. A medical clinic has been set up though.

Lots of elderly and disabled folk in the dome who can not care for themselves.

[Misunderestimator]

39. Thank you! That is EXACTLY the problem here.

[blondeatlast]

14. In times like these, those directly affected rise to their very best,

and those of us who merely observe reach their worst, it would seem.

I can't explain it, but it is a disturbing law of the internet, it seems.

[pocket]

21. Javert has been doing a lot of posting :)

while 24601 runs amok in New Orleans

[sui generis]

24. if we're talking about the looting

you can certainly use some practical criteria.

There was an evacuation done while the area was under Cat 5 warning. There was non-stop radio, TV, and local public service coverage. Anyone who is looting or breaking into pharmacies trying to get "medicine" should be at a hospital getting medicine. Anyone who is starving or sick should be at a shelter or medical facility, spending their energy getting there. If they were sick or starving while the warnings were out, they should certainly have taken EXTRA care to get their grams to wherever she needed to be to have her oxycontin and valium and xanax and whatever else they think they needed to steal from the pharmacy.

It's not moral absolutism, but when a community knows it must evacuate you have to be able to rely on not having your absence taken advantage of by people waiting to take advantage of you in spite of every warning and every effort.

Society looks on looting harshly, and rightly so.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. We can distinguish

We can distinguish between someone stealing some Huggies and someone stealing an ATM machine.... Even the blind eyes of the law makes such a distinction....

[sui generis]

32. well to break it down and get away from all the DRAMA

Yes we can. Life works best when we play by the rules. If you have kids who need huggies, you should have gotten them the hell out of there. You can still get them to shelters and help stations. You don't need to put your future and your children's future at risk looting a private business. If the owner were still there and shot you, which could easily happen in the south, you would not get the huggies, you would not pass go.

It sounds harsh, but you have to draw a line. If you're looting, ATMS or huggies, you are still breaking the law and endangering yourself.

There may be a time of ultimate last resort in which choosing anarchy like that might mean your continued survival - I don't think Mr. Huggie is there yet.

It's a storm / flood, and a bad one, but there will be more absolutely without a doubt. It's not the worst thing that has ever happened to a city or region in the U.S., and there is no reason to act like anarchy is justifiable at this time. It's been ONE DAY.

Nobody is going to starve to death in one day. And NOBODY needs huggies that bad - what a strange conceit.

[Misunderestimator]

44. It's a strange conceit to assume to know what they knew...

or what their capabilities were to find shelter, or why they may even have chosen not to evacuate. And it's a strange conceit to judge people based on what is shown to us on the news.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

47. I Don't Think This Requires Such A Sophisticated Analysis...

There's a huge difference between a hungry person stealing a bag of chips because he's hungry and he has no means to pay or there isn't someone there to take the money and walking out with an ATM machine....

[sui generis]

49. oh give me a break

we totally disagree on your definition of hunger.

One day. Don't steal chips. Get to a shelter or aid station and have some food that we're sending, without breaking the law.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

55. The Law Makes Such A Distinction

If I go into a 7-11 and steal a bag of chips I might get arrested but I suspect I'll get a stern warning from the proprietor and be told to never come back again....

If I steal the ATM machine I suspect I am going to the hooskow for a long while....

I'm just curiouis...

Do you see a difference between stealing a Baby Ruth and stealing someone's Escalade....

[sui generis]

57. this straw man won't float

We are talking about whether it is appropriate at this time to decide to go a-stealing Baby Ruth's (and chips, you have a strange notion of nutritional requirements).

My point is that if you are in extremis and your life depends on it, I could see that.

But after 24 hours, you shouldn't be stealing a bag of chips or a candy bar when you can get your butt down to a shelter and get some food.

I CAN make a judgement here, and I do. It's wrong and inappropriate, and that is the meat of this discussion. Nobody is starving after 24 hours. People don't starve that fast.

There will be floods in the future. Would you just rather make a law that says store owners are required to leave their businesses unlocked in case somebody is "hungry" and needs a snack? If we can't deal with this now, then it's going to happen again and again. Tacit approval of looting is not a good policy. As much as "looters" are boogeymen to the MSM, "poor starving underdog Tsunami survivors who were left to DIE in the flood I tell you, DIE" are anti-bogeymen.

We have to be rational here. You are defending a criminal act that is not necessary to anyone's survival at this time. If a bag of chips is all that's standing between you and death from malnutrition, then society has much much bigger problems than a dependable hurricane season.

[sui generis]

48. one day. Nobody needs huggies after one day.

I've seen a lot of news, possibly not the same news. There are many conceits in all of this conversation.

Nonetheless, it is no conceit at all to know something about how natural disaster relief works, and about human nature, all news aside.

I'm not being unreasonable - but people have to make an effort FIRST instead of just grabbing for what's in front of them. Looters exist, and they loot because they can, and that is an incontrovertible fact.

If you don't want to be associated with criminals doing things for criminal reasons then don't do the things that they do, if it is within your power to avoid doing it. Nobody is starving after one day. Nobody needs huggies so badly that they should risk being associated with people stealing ATMs.

Color me judgemental - that's fine.

[Old Vet]

29. Iam torn on this subject, We should deal with saving lives........

Than deal with securing law and order. Of course when all Ive worked for is half filled with water, And people are breaking in to steal the whats left, Makes it hard to give excuses for looting.

[ultraist]

30. "Society looks on looting harshly"

Well it's a real shame that society doesn't look on high level looting, "legalized stealing," racism and opppression more harshly.

What creates an increased crime rate? Petty looting is merely a symptom of a bigger problem.

[mondo joe]

31. But those of us who DO look harshly on "high level looting" don't like

this any better.

[ultraist]

34. You may feel petty theft is as bad as ongoing legalized looting

But I don't. Our high level looters rape and pillage the working classes daily.

I'm not really too concerned about a few groceries or water damaged electronics getting lifted. I'm more concerned about systemic problems that have long term, widespread effects.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

35. I Can't Speak For Mondo

but I distinguish as the law does between petty acts of theft and grand ones and there might even be situations where petty acts of theft can be morally if not legally justified....

[ultraist]

45. Are you aware of the inequities in the justice system?

Do you know that white collar crime looters are not punished as severely as blue collar crimes? The law does not totally distinguish. Furthermore, many of the high level looting that occurs, is legal. For example, draining funding social programs is legal, but it is moral?

[mondo joe]

54. That will greatly comfort the owners of a small business that has its

inventory looted, or the lower income families who have ther posessions looted while they wait in the dome.

[mondo joe]

43. Those who can steal more, steal more. Those who can steal less, steal less

I can multi task annd consider both wrong. They are both born of the same impulse.

[sui generis]

51. You would be concerned if you owned that business

as a small business owner, and the result is that YOU are the one who loses your ability to bring food to your families plates.

You are being dishonest, whether you know it or not. It's a problem, it's not a big problem, I agree, but it's not a negligible problem either. Treat it fairly.

[sui generis]

33. fix one problem at a time

now you're just blustering for the sake of bluster.

I understand your frustration, but I think you're supporting something that is unsupportable. It's a tragedy, but we all have to do our very best to play by the rules.

[calico1]

38. The situation in NO is bad enough.

I don't see how adding anarchy to the mix is going to help things.

[ultraist]

41. We need to set our priorities.

Focusing on petty theft is a diversion from the real problems we have. All of the media attention on looting reminds me of the "Just say no" drug program. What a fucking joke.

[sui generis]

50. well I do agree with you there

Us comfy folks in our dry homes expect looting and the news can't disappoint. They're telling us what we expect to see, because they know it justifies the little we do think we know about situations like this.

Looting IS a boogieman, you are correct. It is not widespread, and most people are decent and practical. The news shouldn't portray it as more than it, just a criminal act, nor associate it with a particular class of people, since it happens at riotous home games in University towns too and it ain't the po' black peoples doing it there, and it sure ain't for food.

[ultraist]

53. The MSM is making looting into a "boogieman." Well put! eom.

[Thtwudbeme]

40. I think people feel stressed right now because there

isn't very much most of us can do to help right now.

Being helpless is the worst feeling ever...powerless.

It sucks.

[SmokingJacket]

42. The poor of New Orleans were left to DIE.

I'd be a little bit disaffected if that happened to me. If I saw my city falling apart around me, and all the people with money and power skedaddled, you BET I'd take what I could get before it all got washed away.

Theft is wrong, but there is a WIDE range of degrees of wrong. Stealing a grape in the grocery store is wrong. But only a little wrong. Stealing from a devastated city you were left to die in is not as wrong as leaving those people to die in the first place.

[esvhicl]

56. Donate Red Cross

http://www.redcross.org/donate/donate.html