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HELP NEEDED: Employee wants to change his mind on enlistment

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Pab Sungenis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 12:47 PM
Original message
HELP NEEDED: Employee wants to change his mind on enlistment
An employee of mine signed up with the Navy two months ago, taking deferred enlistment "until the job asked for was open." I was hesitant at the time when he told me this, and expressed misgivings, but he went ahead and enlisted with a deployment date of 6/6/06. (How appropriate, I thought.)

Now, today, he was talking with me about his plans for next summer. I told him his plans next summer were no longer his own, and he told me "oh, I've changed my mind. I'm going to tell them I'm no longer interested."

I'll wait until everyone has stopped groaning or screaming at the screen before I continue.

He told me that the recruiter he spoke with had told him that any time before he took the oath, he could change his mind and quit. I had the very unpleasant duty of telling him that's not how the military works; once he signed those forms he was Government property, oath or no oath, deployment or no deployment. He got very quiet after that.

Apparently, he thought he would be able to enlist as a Navy photographer and sail around taking photos. I explained that they wouldn't guarantee a particular job, especially not while we're at "war" with TERRA!! and that with the conditions in Iraq, he'd probably be deployed to the area. Once this sank in, he started to panic.

"What do I do?" he asked. "Get a lawyer. A good one," I answered.

I promised to help him find a lawyer, or at least some good resources, on what rights he may or may not have, and how he can go about trying to get out of his enlistment. I didn't give him much hope, and am pretty sure that come next June he'll be entering Basic Training, but I did say I would do what I could.

So, I turn to you fine folks at DU. Any suggestions where I could send him? Any lawyers out there fighting these kinds of cases now?
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evlbstrd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. I went into the Navy under deferred enlistment in the 70's.
You are NOT theirs until you enter AFEES and are processed in, including the oath.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. doesn't work that way any more
His as is owned, and there's nothing any lawyer can do to change it.

H's future is set. The only possible thing he could have going for him is if he was underage when he signed (which happens a lot more often than the military would care to admit).
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evlbstrd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. From www.objector.org
"Despite threats of involuntary activation from recruiters, the military currently releases all DEP recruits who request a separation."
My daughters ex-boyfriend backed out of his DEP with the Marine Corps just two years ago. Nothing happened. He even got Federal Financial Aid to go to college.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. I stand corrected! n/t
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
2. START HERE:
Edited on Tue Aug-30-05 12:53 PM by elehhhhna
http://www.objector.org/girights/delayed-enlistment-program.html

How does someone get out of the Delayed Enlistment Program?
Fundamentally, the way to get out of the DEP is NOT TO GO, not to report on your ship date. Some people simply do not go; others choose to write a letter stating their decision not to go. In either case, the results are the same: you do not have to go to MEPS on the ship date.

What are the consequences if I do not go to MEPS on my ship date?

There are no consequences and no records as a result of withdrawing from the DEP that currently have any effect on things like employment or your legal record. This is the case for non-citizens as well as citizens.

Withdrawing from the DEP has no effect on future employment. You don't have to write on any employment application that you have withdrawn from the DEP, and there is no question on employment forms that pertains to that issue.

Withdrawing from the DEP may affect your ability to enter the military at a later time. On the other hand, with the military desperate for ground troops, and Army recruitment numbers way down, it's hard to believe the Army wouldn't take a qualified person who at an earlier time had withdrawn from the DEP
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
3. No Problem! If he' says he's gay. they won't take him.
Lot's cheaper than a lawyer and guaranteed
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
4. A couple things:
The Quakers recommend

If you've already signed up through the Delayed Enlistment Program (DEP) and are having second thoughts, call the GI Rights Hotline at 800/394-9544. This is a free nongovernmental service. If you have problems in the military, call the GI Rights Hotline.


He could also go talk with his local Quaker church, see if they know of any specific local information/network that could help him. Good luck!

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mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
6. there is some hope
". . . Let's get it all out into the open: If a recruiter (or anyone else) tells you that you can't get out of the DEP, they are lying to you. If they tell you it will be a "dishonorable discharge," they are lying to you. If they tell you that you will go to jail, they are lying to you. If they tell you that you will be fined, they are lying to you. If they tell you that it will keep you from getting student loans, or jobs, or anything else, they are lying to you. If they tell you that MPs will come and drag you away to basic training, they are lying to you. Don't laugh, but one recruit was even told that the DEP discharge would go on his "social security record," and remain there for 53 years. Obviously, that, too, was a lie (remember when teachers used to tell you that your behavior/grades would go on your "permanent record," and follow you for life?).

A DEP discharge is officially known as an "Entry Level Separation" (ELS). An ELS is not characterized. It's not "Honorable," it's not "General," it's not "Under Other Than Honorable," it's not anything. DEP Discharges do not result in an RE (Reenlistment Eligibility) Code that will prevent joining the same (or another) military service in the future.

A DEP discharge has one, and only one negative effect: If you are discharged from the DEP, and later want to enlist in that SAME service, you will require a waiver. While waivers are usually granted, you may lose certain benefits, such as the ability to chose what job you want, or what date you will ship out to basic training. For example, one Air Force Recruiter told me that his commander would only approve a waiver for someone with a voluntary DEP discharge, if the recruit agreed to ship out to basic training within 30 days (which, in turn, limited what job choices the recruit would have). On the other hand, an Army Recruiter told me that she made it a routine habit to contact DEP discharges six months or so down the line to see if they had changed their minds and now wanted to join. Apparently, her particular commander approved these type of waivers routinely.

DEP Discharge Procedures

All requests for discharge from the DEP need to be in writing (See Sample Letter). The letter must clearly state that you are requesting to be discharged from the DEP, and state your reasons why.

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/joiningup/a/dep_2.htm


Page 3
While one can use any reason at all, it's best to use one of the reasons that are specifically mentioned in the recruiting regulations. These reasons are: . . .

Recruiters themselves do not have the authority to discharge individuals from the DEP.

Only Recruiting Commanders have that authority. So, your letter needs to be addressed to the Recruiting Commander (but you can give the letter to your recruiter). Your recruiter is required by regulation to forward the letter to his/her commander.
The Recruiter is required to try and talk you out of it. This is known as "re-selling." However, regulations prohibit the recruiter from using threats, such as "You'll go to jail." (That doesn't keep some recruiters from using this tactic, however). It's unfortunate, but true, that most of the complaints I hear about such tactics usually come from Marine Corps Recruits (See Gerald's Story on the GI Rights Web Site for an example). I guess that Marine "Gung-Ho" attitude sometimes gets out of hand.


http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/joiningup/a/dep_2.htm
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TlalocW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
8. Have him walk in to the recruitment office
And sing, "You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant," then walk out. They might think he's sick, and they won't take him.

Seriously though, look into lawyers and then maybe a move to Canada or Mexico - if the military were coming for me, that would be on my list options.

TlalocW
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
9. GI Rights Hotline, and other links...
1-800-394-9544

From a Tinoire post:
This is recommended by my parent group Vets for Peace and Military Families Speak Out They are VERY experienced in this sort of thing.

We are a network of nonprofit, nongovernmental organizations who provide information to servicemembers about military discharges, grievance and complaint procedures, and other civil rights.

Whether you are in the Army, Navy, Air Force or Marines, we can help with military discharges, such as:

Delayed Entry Program
Hardship
Conscientious Objection
Don't Ask, Don't Tell and
Homosexual Conduct
Entry Level Separation
Medical
Psychological
We can help if you are AWOL or UA.

We can help if you are experiencing hazing, harassment or discrimination, or if you have been a victim of sexual assault.

Learn how to help members of the military with discharges using
Helping Out: A Guide to Military Discharges and GI Rights.

Advice for CO's in the Armed Forces

http://girights.objector.org/

http://www.calltoconscience.net/

http://www.objector.org/coclaim.html

http://www.objector.org/advice/contents.html

http://www.sss.gov/FSconsobj.htm

http://www.nisbco.org /

http://www.scn.org/ip/sdmcc/co.htm

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=5359#5369

http://www.objector.org /

http://www.afsc.org

http://www.quaker.org/visalia/CO /


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HardWorkingDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
10. Back in 90...
I had a buddy that signed up through the DEP and at the last minute he told them he changed his mind. The whined about how he signed a contract so he just told them he wasn't coming and if they wanted him they could just come get him.

They never did.

But I'd call those numbers other posters posted.

Also though, have him keep in mind that there is tremendous pressure on recruiters and in the current climate they will probably say anything to get someone to sign up.
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