I seriously doubt one poster on DU personally knows any of the looters

[Thtwudbeme]

in the places hit by Katrina, or their reasons for looting.

I am sure there are SOME opportunistic people in these places who are taking big buck stuff...but, I am just as sure that most of the people are trying to get DINNER.

I hate that this storm has offended so many people's delicate sensibilities on DU.

Manners don't keep your stomach full, and morals and ethics don't taste all that great.

Stuff the looting posts; there are people dying right now.

Stephanie

[Lex]

1. I'd rather people take what they need in terms of first aid supplies

and food and water, EVEN IF that means that some other people are taking TVs.

The good outweighs the bad in the long term, imho.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pithlet]

Your post is beyond the pale

Sitting there in your intact home pounding away on your computer.

Ugh. It's getting harder and harder to stay within the bounds of DU rules. Some reactions here are disgusting. Pathetic, and disgusting.

[styersc]

51. I lived through Hugo and was raised in south FLorida where I

survived a slew of hurricanes.

Law enforcement, National Guard, power companies workers, medical personell and private volunteers are all putting themselves in harm's way by trying to help.

Shelters are up and running. Food and water is available as are medical supplies and essentials. All are being collected and distributred orderly.

There is no such thing as a benevolent looter. Looters are not out to supply communities with their booty. They are taking advantage of a terrible catastrophe to enrich themselves at the peril of those who are volunteering and risking their lives to help. Every looter that is captured gives the same story- "I was just trying to get food for my baby, who also needs a big screen TV and an X-box and 50 gallons of gass and 10 cases of beer...."

Sticking up for the looters is sticking up for swine who are stealing from those who have already been wiped out. Talk about "Beyond the pale!!!!"

Again suppofrt relief efforts and law enforcement- NOT LOOTERS!!!!

[Pithlet]

58. Sorry

I stand by everything I've said. Anyone here who's so God damned worried about the looters has seriously fucked up priorities. I don't care if they've gone through it themselves. That only makes me wonder even more, to tell you the truth.

You can cling to your views on looters so it will make you feel morally superior and smug. Whatever works for you. Just don't expect others to not be disgusted by it. Until someone points me tothe footage of career criminals who've come swooping in after the devestation and making off with thousands of dollars in merchandise, I stand by what I said. The ONLY footage I've seen is pitiful half drowned people making off with things like diapers. And you think it's okay to shoot. That is... There are no words.

[styersc]

83. So to make yorself feel better, you are welcoming looters

to steal from others. I don't suppose you are packing up diapers and food and medicine and heading to the Gulf? No?!?!

I guess you are just helping out by offering looters things that belong to you.

You are probably right. The guys trying to break in to the gun filled sporting goods store are trying to steal soccer balls to keep kids occupied- they aren't there to take weapons. And the drug addict has decided to turn his life around and he is breaking in to the pharmacy to steal medicines to be distributed to the needy. And the liquor store is providing alcohol for the purposes of sterilizing surgical tools.

The point is that law enforcement has to keep order, now more then ever. If you let people in to a store to get diapers, others will follow for TVs and guns and gas and just for vandalism. Law enforcement has to keep everyone but emergency workers away. It is for the good of everyone.

(PS- Ever see what happens to disposable diapers that have been rained on?)

[Pithlet]

87. No

I'm not welcoming looting. I'm responding to sanctimonious, judgmental armchair looter officers (thanks whoever came up with the armchair officers, I forget who, but it is so apt). And getting a great satisfaction from it, too. :sarcasm:

Anyone who would judge and want to see punished a person who steals necessities out of desperation to survive gets nothing but derision from me. Period. You can rationalize it all you want, if it makes you feel better about your position. But, it doesn't make your position look any more tenable to me.

[Thtwudbeme]

90. Pithlet, you are a better person than I dream of being

I just wanted you to know that.

My other post to the person you are responding to is just going to be deleted by the mods, but it shows that you are just plain nicer than me.

Stephanie

[Pithlet]

91. It's hard.

You can't make people feel empathy. It's impossible. I don't know why I try.

[styersc]

158. The Gulf Coast is in deserate need at this time...

...absolutely everyone is in need. The diapers, and food and medicine that remain and that are coming in belong to everyone, they are communal and necessary for everyone.

A looter who decides to steal to satisfy his own needs is not only stealing from the rightful owner of the proerty, but he (or she) is stealing food and necessities out of the mouths of the needy. You are condoning that there should be two classes of victims. The law abiding who are willing to wait their turn and peaceably cooperate with the good people who are trying to help in this disaster, and a second class of victim who says, "Screw everyone else! I deserve help more then anyone else and I deserve to have my needs satisfied right now! To hell with everyone else." I can't believe that anyone at DU would throw in with this attitude. Seems sort of conservative GOP'ish to me.

Historic parallels. In the 1970 when Nicaragua was devestated by earthquakes the world sent aid and assistance. The Dictator Mendoza felt that he was your second kind of victim and that he was more deserving of materials then anyone else. He stole from the poor (just as you are supporting) and the peasants viewed this as the last straw, and started the Sandanista uprising. Same thing happened in Somalia where Aristide decided that UN aid to the starving should go to him alone so he murderedc the hungry and looted the goods for himself. According to your logic folks Mendoza and Aristide should be ignored as they steal from the neediest and the weak. I disagree!!!!

[Pithlet]

184. But I'm not.

I'm not asking that people just be allowed to take what they want. I'm not saying that laws against looting should be repealed. I'm just asking for understanding. I don't think it's that much of a stretch to think that the people who were driven to steal these items aren't thieving lowlifes who should be judged thusly. More than likely, these were people who wouldn't steal under normal circumstances. That's all I'm saying. That you and I could very well have done the same thing in their circumstances. I wouldn't let my children starve and suffer for any reason. If breaking the law meant they lived, you'd bet I'd do it. And I've never stolen a thing in my life. If you were to turn around and judge me for it, I'd say you were wrong to do so after a hearty kiss-my-ass. ;)

[styersc]

190. I believe you and believe that every single person would do the

very same thing. Everyone would be compelled to steal for the sake of their families. I'd sure as hell want to steal for my daughter in this situation!!!!

That is why it is most important that we don't and that we demand the same from our neighbors. right now every scrap is needed in this emergency. Every asset must be shared by every victim, we can't set up a system that makes those who obey the rules to wait and those who will commit crimes to be rewarded.

I know that "Shooting Looters" is very harsh and I hate the idea (Heck, I oppose the Death Penalty- I don't want to see anyone taken before the lord says go). But please consider the poor Deputy Sherrif sitting on a corner of ten blocks that he and one other person are in charge of keeping safe. In the same way these levies are trying to keep back the flood, these poor men and women of Law Enforcement and Emergnecy Services are having to overcome tremendous odds. A small crowd of looters can easily overcome the few folks who are stretched so thin at this time but still they are trying to keep,order in the face of flood, disease, downed power lines, no clean water, floating sewage, etc. They are left no choice but to shoot on sight. If anyone could think of another way, I'd love to hear it- I don't relish this position.

We may not share a common method but I can assure you that I share your compassion for the victims and feel no anymosity for those who feel so desparate they may be taken by the temptation of an easy way out- but catastrophe is a time when coming together for the good of everyone is mandatory if anyone is to survive.

[Pithlet]

191. I just can't agree to the shoot on site.

I think all efforts right now should be towards helping people and saving people, and not worrying about things. Those looters won't overcome the police officers if they aren't there to begin with. They shouldn't be there except to make sure no one is hurt. At this point, they should be rescuing people. It is only during the rebuilding process that the issue of looting should be aggressively addressed. And I'm only talking about very extreme circumstances, such as the Hurricane Katrina.

No one should ever be shot for stealing under any circumstances, and especially not under disastrous ones. When that hurricane was coming, and people were either leaving or hunkering down, it is pretty much understood that there will be a great loss of possessions. But, it is the loss of life that matters most. Not just life in the sense of breathing. Life in the sense of "everything is gone, and life will never be the same". We lose our humanity when all we care about are possessions. There comes a time when that must be transcended, at least at first, until things have settled.

[lynne]

200. I've got no problem with taking necessities and-

- would go so far as to say that any surviving perishables SHOULD be taken cooked and eaten instead of just going to waste.

But, I do have a problem with the looting of things such as TV's, electronics, breaking into ATM machines and liquor. Those items DO NOT come under the heading of "necessities".

[Pithlet]

203. I know I haven't made it clear

that I do draw a distinction there. I do not feel it is necessary to steal those things, and definitely don't think it is being done so for survival.

Having said that, I do think that the shock and desperation that many felt probably drove them to do things they wouldn't normally do. While there are certainly opportunists that have no qualms about using such a disaster to steal without boundaries, the situation in NO is almost unique. Most hurricanes don't devastate an entire city to the extent that this one did. This created almost an entire city full of people who were homeless AND possesionless overnight. The conditions and mental anguish they induced were extreme. I would love to think I would not have done what they did. I probably woldn't have. But, I just don't know if we can put them in the same category as common thieves who are criminals even during the best of times. Does that make sense? While I don't think it should be considered a free for all, and I really don't think the people who stole TV sets shouldn't be held accountable, I just don't feel like judging them right now.

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[styersc]

169. Stephanie-

I pray that you are successful in Divinity school. Although I would never judge another, if I were where you are today, I believe I could see a lot of room for improvement in myself.

The Lord instructed us to give to those in need far beyond their request. When asked for a shirt, give your coat as well. Never has anyone been instructed to steal in times of disaster, rather, the very poorest, who have only a small scrap of bread have been blessed for having shared their scraps.

Looters say to the other victims, "To hell with you, I am more deserving then you. I will take what I want while you go without!"

You feel the need and urge to praise the selfish who would take from those who are in more need. You feel that law abiding, hardworking people who patiently wait for the aid that the Lord's blessings will provide, should recieve only the scraps that criminal looters are willing to leave them- I don't know how you sleep. I don't understand, but like I said, I count as one of my blessings, that this is a blindness that I do not have to overcome.

[Donailin]

231. "looters say?"

how can you possibly know the conscience of anyone but yourself? Speak for yourself. Perhaps if you looted then your mindset would be ""To hell with you, I am more deserving then you. I will take what I want while you go without!" and we will all make our characterization of YOU accordingly.

The only person in a position to judge is the one who is sinless. And that person chose to take the sins on his shoulders as though they were his own. And BTW, the very first saint canonized by Christ himself was a thief on a cross.

Now go pray that you see others through God's eyes instead of your own.

[roseBudd]

215. Anybody who is chest deep in H20 because they had no way to evacuate

can have anything they can get in my book. These are the people with no insurance.

My brother cleans pools for the uber rich in FL and they brag about their hurricane insurance giving them all new decorating.

[Thtwudbeme]

60. I lived through Hugo too

it wasn't nearly as bad as this.

Spare me the whining.

[manic expression]

65. and I lived through the blizzard of '96!

That's why we need to shoot the snowplowers who shovel some snow on our property! I hate it when those trucks go by and get that dirty snow on my driveway and it takes me longer to finish shoveling it! That's why I SHOOT them! It's the only NATURAL REACTION! :sarcasm: :puke:

[Pithlet]

66. So did I!

I lived in Maryland when that happened, with street only parking. Don't get me started on the people who would take your parking spot after you spent hours shoveling it clear. :sarcasm:

[oasis]

73. Sit back and wait for the calvary to arrive. That's the ticket.

:eyes:

[liberalitch]

85. Thank you! Finally somebody gets it!

Great quote from you:
"...no such thing as a benevolent looter. Looters are not out to supply communities with their booty. They are taking advantage of a terrible catastrophe to enrich themselves at the peril of those who are volunteering and risking their lives to help. Every looter that is captured gives the same story- "I was just trying to get food for my baby, who also needs a big screen TV and an X-box and 50 gallons of gass and 10 cases of beer...."
Sticking up for the looters is sticking up for swine who are stealing from those who have already been wiped out. Talk about "Beyond the pale!!!!"


I can't believe that anyone finds this acceptable.

[Pithlet]

89. And I can't believe

that anyone would judge these people sitting in their intact homes.

No one is sticking up for looters. They are having some compassion and understanding. These people have lost everything. Everything. No one is sticking up for criminals. They are having some fucking compassion. Gah....

[liberalitch]

198. I do have compassion....

If someone steals food, clean water, medical supplies or even "squats" for the night in a safe dry place.... okay.

Like I asked: what kind of babies eat color tvs?

I went through Isabel (house not so intact, lost a good friend) and lived in Mexico City during the 1985 earthquake.... lost a lot of good friends.

I KNOW one can endure tragedy without inflicting more pain on others.... I've seen it.

[Pithlet]

201. Of course they can

that does not mean, however, that there are NEVER extenuating circumstances. Just because you were able to experience hardship without stealing doesn't give you a pass to judge absolutely without considering the circumstances.

There IS a difference between a career criminal who only steals for personal gain when they have plenty of opportunity for personal gain through legal channels. It is a very different story when someone has just not moments ago lost everything they had. Again, I'll say it. Those people are utterly ruined. Their capacity for judgment just may be a little bit skewed, to put it lightly. I do find those who would judge them overly harsh.

[liberalitch]

206. But do you agree.... that?

there is a difference between the way a person should be treated who has stolen.... say, a boat to take their family to high ground and the way a person should be treated who breaks into a pawn shop (like the one I saw on BBC news) and takes a surround sound system?

I sure think so.

As a society, should we let our moral compass go berserk in times of disaster?

I don't think so... that's the type of thinking that got us into Iraq after 911.

Maybe if fewer people made excuses for it this time.... next time thievery would not be a problem.

[Pithlet]

207. There is a difference

between bringing a person to justice, and personally judging that person for their behavior. I'm not saying that those who stole non-essential things should be free of any sort of legal action. My only real objection is to the comments made on this board. It seems that this is the time to mourn what happened to the gulf coast. I think we're all affected by what has happened, and we all feel helpless to watch right now from a distance and not be able to physically reach out and help these people. I guess we're all handling it our own way. I just hate to watch the devastation and then see posts condemning the looters. My reaction to that has been an outlet for my frustration, I guess.

[AngryAmish]

52. I disagree to a certain extent

If one is not allowed to defend yourself and your family (by keeping important supplies from being stolen during a disaster then all the needed stuff will be taken by those strong enough to take it from you.

on edit - looting necessary supplies from a store is a different moral question and would not necessarily be bad.

[styersc]

59. You are speaking in abstracts when this is a concrete...

...situation.

Law enforcement has to keep order in effected areas. Often blocks and blocks have to be patrolled by only a couple of officers or National Guard (heavily strained by Iraq War). Looters, if allowed to roam, outnumber the law. They can't interview each looter they see to make sure that the looter is benwvolent, or needy or greedy.

One law has to apply to all, or many, many will be hurt or killed. No looting, no exception, zero tolerance.

This is for the good of everyone, not just shop owners or property owners. If lawlessness is allowed, how do you stop rape, abduction, murder? The effected areas have to be under martial law until order can be arranged.

[Lex]

42. Shooting looters is criminal and immoral. NO personal property is

worth ONE life.

You are worse than the looters if you would shoot someone over a tv or a loaf of bread.

[SteppingRazor]

46. I dunno about immoral, but at least here in Florida it's not criminal...

looting during a state of emergency counts as home invasion here, which means you can actually shoot looters who try to steal from your house.

Funny that all it takes is one nasty hurricane and we immediately degenerate into something out of Mad Max :eyes:

[Thtwudbeme]

62. Excuse me; maybe you should read some of the news

Food, shelter and medical attention are NOT available.

Are you freaking crazy, or just trying for attention with the Wild West theme?

[nini]

79. Shooting? Are you ficking kidding me?

:wtf:


I can't believe I just read that.

[VOX]

81. Jesus Christ, man-- should a woman who took loaf of bread be gunned down?

Killing is NOT the answer, especially in this case! There is mass **panic** there, people are grabbing what they can to survive. What in God's name would be accomplished by shooting people? How can you even think this way? My God, we're **all** in trouble if you're serious. :wtf:

[styersc]

185. You are right I guess.

Let looting go completely unchecked. Let everyone take whatever they want and panic will subsist. I remember how looting calmed the LA riots in the 80's and the Watts riots of 60s and 70s. Looting always makes a situation calmer.

What, I wonder, is going to happen when the announcement is made in the shelters thtat looting has been ok's by local authorities. Do you think that homeowners who are patiently waiting in the shelters are going to remain seated or aree they goping to fight there way back to their homes to provide the protection that you think is out of line. When every Tom, Jeff and Beaureguard is arming himself to protect his home, I'm certain that no innicent people will be killed, no panic will ensue. Certainly only decent people in need of formula for their children will be roaming the streets and breaking in to private property and the vigilantes out to protect their homes will keep this in mind and not shoot "the bad looters".

But on the off chance that this is a fantasy, maybe we should develop a plan that protects every single victime equally. Maybe a system that says, No Looting for the good of everyone in need and not risk lives by giving a pass to this person and that person and that person on a one by one basis. Maybe a catastrophe is a time when we ALL have to come together and no one preson or group of people should be allowed to cut ahead of the line, disregard common decency and the law, and steal to save themselves to the detrement of everyone else.

Throughout history emergency has called for temporary emergency action. Including a shoot on sight rule for looters (who are scum to prey on those who have been devestated). This is a rule to keep order in a situation where disorder ALWAYS causes more tragedy.

[Pithlet]

205. So, it's either shoot, or do nothing at all?

I really don't think that anyone is arguing that looting should be legalized. I think, in your case, it is the draconian measures you're advocating that are setting off some.

[styersc]

232. Christ promised redemption and salvation

to the thief who hung on the cross next to his, after the thief confessed his wrong doing and sought mercy. This thief did not rationalize his sins, make excuses for his actions and demand that others be aloowed to sin in the same manner.

Nearly 24 hours after my initial comment, New Orleans is in chaos because so many share your "insight". I am not concerned for the posessions, my concern is for the good of every victim who needs help and for the safety of the volunteers and professionals who are trying to deliver it.

[Pithlet]

234. Did Christ say

to shoot starving, desperate people? I must have missed that.

Yeah, New Orleans is in Chaos because of insightful people like me. I'm also responsible for global warming, too! I'll throw in economic recession as a bonus. Don't tell anyone.

[SteppingRazor]

2. Out of curiosity, what do you do if...

You're a grocery store owner and people arrive to loot your store? Just let them take whatever they want?

[Thtwudbeme]

3. Oh give me a freaking break

I am in school hoping to get into Divinity school next year.

Do you really want MY answer?

Do you really want to know what I think of people that value property over life?

[ArkDem]

17. Which freaking school are you trying to get into?

[Thtwudbeme]

18. I would have answered that last year.

I think I recognize your name...but, after I found out that someone really was stalked at their school by a DUer...well, no way in hell am I giving out that information anymore.

Let's just say I am in the South, and a Protestant. How 'bout that?

Steph

[Lex]

4. That's a different situation if the store owner is there and can

take the money for the supplies.

[ArkDem]

6. That would be the humane thing to do. If they need major

appliances and cash those should be offered as well. It's not easy being a nice person.

[iamjoy]

10. It Is A Fine Line

When you are hungry and you break into (or go into) an abandoned store and "steal" some water and granola bars, that is not wrong. The stuff was probably going to be written off anyway.

I would hope the people are only looting abandoned buildings, and only for survival supplies.

But, it could very easily degenrate into an "every one for his/her self free for all strongest survive" scenario.

That would be wrong.

[calico1]

24. I agree.

It is a very fine line. Doing what you need to do if it means survival is one thing but that doesn't mean a free for all mentality is justifiable. I don't that is a cruel or heartless opinion though apparently some people believe it is. I lived in Puerto Rico for a number of years and lived through some rough ones. So I am quite familiar with people taking things in order to survive and people taking advantage of the situation. I do not feel the latter are "victims." Sorry.

[faithfulcitizen]

11. whatever your opinion, one best get out of the way b/c of the danger nt

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ArkDem]

30. My thoughts exactly. If I see a car parked in the same place

for several days I assume it's fair game for the chop shop!

[Pithlet]

67. Yeah

Because seeing a car parked in the same place is exactly like going through a devestating hurricane and the city is completely destroyed and you've lost everything you own. There is no such thing as gray area when it comes to what's right and wrong. :sarcasm:

[StayOutTheBushes]

100. I don't know what 'devestating' means.

[Pithlet]

102. Clearly, you don't.

Yeah, I know. A spelling mistake. You got me. Yay for you! I still don't think it would have mattered if I'd spelled it right.

Edited to add: by the way? Calling people on spelling errors in an online discussion? Lame, and shows you've clearly lost the argument.

ETA again: I just realized you're not the one I was even discussing this with. I'm not sure why you felt the need to interject. But, I thank you for the spelling lesson.

[ArkDem]

127. What arguement?

[Pithlet]

130. I wasn't responding to you.

I was responding to Mr./Ms. Spellchecker.

[Misunderestimator]

34. If I had a store there I would expect to take a total loss.

The looting would be nothing to all the other damage. And I would certainly HOPE that if I owned a store there that contained food and supplies they needed that they would take it. This is fucking ridiculous.

[Tomee450]

173. What some people

don't understand, or perhaps don't care, is that many of the looters had very little to begin with and now they have nothing. I've known poverty stricken people. Many have very little money left at the end of the month and must resort to using food banks. I can imagine that some people who are looting never did so before but now are so desperate that their resolve weakened. When one's home is gone, or if appliances are destroyed and no money available for replacement, cupboard empty and prospect of returning soon to your job very dim, one can become quite desperate and act in ways that are quite foreign to him.

[Misunderestimator]

186. Good point, Tomee... and it's good to see you.

:hi:

[Tomee450]

220. Thank you.

Good to see you also. Enjoy reading your posts.

[oasis]

Gov. Blanco just announced "There is no food to be had". Your mythical

store is irrelavant at this point.

[ScreamingMeemie]

104. Today? Yes.

Today...we should all care about one another, instead of praising God and passing the ammunition. That's what so messed up about today.

[RPM]

5. shit - go ahead, steal a TV at this point

if you are so dumb as to pass the food and water for a TV or playstation, you deserve teh death that will soon befall you.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

7. I was very moved when an anchor said that diapers were being looted. n/t

[Solly Mack]

8. The whole debate reminds me of the old truism

Conservatives would starve 99 needy families to catch 1 cheat

Liberals would feed 99 cheats to save 1 family from starving

[Zhade]

148. Great quote!

Clearly, we have a lot of conservatives here on DU. I feel bad for them, having so little compassion must really suck.

[Solly Mack]

151. It's all in the world view

and I'm quite happy being a pinko commie bleeding heart Liberal.

[Zhade]

154. I hear that, "comrade"!

:toast:

[Jersey Devil]

9. Should I feel sorry for the woman hauling whiskey bottles I just saw on TV

Maybe she is dying of thirst?

[Thtwudbeme]

15. You know what?

It's real easy to play "good" when you are sitting in your comfortable chair right now, eh?

Yeah...that woman might NEED a drink. God knows I do sometimes.

[Jersey Devil]

26. That's just plain ridiculous

So if people are stressed out they should be allowed to steal so they can drink themselves into a stupor? Great thinking.

[Misunderestimator]

39. Suggesting that one person that you saw taking a liquor bottle...

is representative of what people are taking to survive is what is plain ridiculous.

[Pithlet]

55. Judging them and moralizing from your own comfort

is ridiculous. The focus on looting, of all things, after such an enormous, devastating killer storm is far more morally bankrupt than a few desperate people who've lost everything grabbing useless crap that probably won't work anyway. I just have a hard time believing there are all these pristine stores filled with millions of dollars of salable merchandise that evil crooks in black masks, stripped shirts and handlebar mustaches are merrily making off with while bad organ music plays mournfully on. Some people really need to move on beyond 3rd grade morals and ethics, here.

[Misunderestimator]

189. Not to mention... where the hell are they going to put the stuff they take

if they don't eat it? Think they have a warehouse somewhere? I can't believe that we're even here discussing looting. There's NOTHING worth looting except for things that will aid in their survival. And as survivors, they have every right to those tools. What a world we live in where possessions trump human life.

[Pithlet]

194. Yep. I just can't believe

that there was a huge outcry of "Free stuff! Let's go!" as the storm was raging. I just don't understand the outrage. Almost every single item of footage I've seen has been of complete and utter misery; even the people making off with stuff. These are people who've been completely ruined in just about every sense. Not worthy of condemnation.

[Tomee450]

175. Better for them to

drink and relax than be so tense that they make everyone in the household miserable. Not everyone has access to Prozac.

[AnnInLa]

27. Local TV stations out of Baton Rouge

flying over in their helicopters....scenes and scenes of looters, NOT taking food. For 3 days people in N.O. were warned to evacuate, or to stock up on food and water if they were staying. I live in a town that frequently does this...even the poor people stock up, believe it or not. 99% of the looters are not looting food. Looters are looting stores for what they can get, knowing the police have more impt things to do than to chase them. The looters were very brazen, just walking down the middle of the streets carrying their non-edible loot.

When we had the Jazz Funeral for Democracy protest all thru downtown New Orleans...these store owners and workers were the ones who came outside to cheer and clap for us. Many of them closed down and let their workers join our demonstration....they are almost entirely "blue." Many, many of the nicer homes are being looted as well. Will you make a distinction between looting a home and a business.

Annie and Buddy Spell, lawyers-on-the-ground for Cindy live on Northshore of New Orleans. What would you think about their home or office being looted? (I really, really hope they still have a home and office to come home to.)

It's one thing to be mindful of the condition of poor people. It's another to be naive.

Have you donated blood today, or contributed to the Red Cross?

[Thtwudbeme]

54. Have you ever given up 14 years of your life to help other people?

as far as the attorney's are concerned; I hope they have a good insurance policy...

I hope everyone who is being looted right now does.

btw---I was a paramedic, hence the title of my post...I was stupid to expect you to know that.

BUT...my post stands...no, I don't personally give a flying rat's ass if someone loses their large screen TV or jewelry. Not right now...maybe later. But, not while I am reading about people dying.

Steph

[AnnInLa]

57. Oh, I don't know...does 22 years of teaching Special Needs Children count?

my post stands

[Thtwudbeme]

64. No, it really doesn't. Were you trained to deal with nothing but traumas

and emergencies?

Sorry...my Mother is a retired teacher...I have much respect for teachers, particularly the job that you did (and right now, Latin teachers.)

Dealing with special ed kids is nothing like walking into a mass casualty situation. One is not better or more noble than the other, it's just that your job skills are different.

Stephanie

[AnnInLa]

74. well, I give up....you are MUCH superior to me

of course, I just happen to go thru hurricanes every few years, living here on the coast of LA....but, your knowledge is much superior to mine, so I bow deeply to your superiority. No reply necessary.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

29. At least whiskey is safe to drink during a time like this, AND

I'll have you know that my grandmother considered booze to be an emergency remedy for diarrhea. She used to give us kids two tablespoons of blackberry brandy if we had digestive upsets.

[MadHound]

76. Well, first of all, there is no, none, zip, zero, nada potable water in NO

There is also no electricity with which to boil it, and firing up the old gas stove is a dicey proposition at best(lethal at worst).

In the old days when there was this problem, people drank alcohol, a lot. Beer, mead, whiskey, whatever, for yes, it quenched the thirst, and it was safe to drink.

In addition, whiskey and other strong alcohol is a great anteseptic in a pinch. Good for cleaning out those infectious wounds one is going to get while living in a disaster zone.

And quite frankly, if I was going through the living hell that NO residents are going through, I would probably pick up a few bottles on the way through for the old fashioned reason, to get a good buzz on this evening.

I think these people deserve a little compassion and understanding here, not condemnation for looting items that are going to get tossed out anyway.

[zulchzulu]

178. That's street currency for food...OK..maybe a few nips...

It's a jungle out there.

I'd like you to empty your fridge and act like no stores are open for business. Oh, and no water. Oh, and no electricity.

Now what do you do? Pick your nose?

[theboss]

13. I look to Dr. Dre for wisdom

Yo straight puttin down gettin my scoot on
Let's jump in off in Compton so I gots ta get my loot on
and come up on me some furniture or sometin
Got a VCR
in the back of my car
that I ganked from the Slauson Swap Meet
And motherfuckers better not try to stop me
Cuz they will see that I can't be stopped
Cuz I'ma cock my Glock and pop til they all drop

[SteppingRazor]

19. And what would Dre do if someone showed up to rob him?

My point being, looting is a violent act, and will likely be met with violence.

[Pithlet]

28. Easy to say, isn't it?

When you haven't just lost everything you own and are trapped in an obliterated city with no idea what will happen to you. Real easy, isn't it?

[SteppingRazor]

40. I'm not saying I wouldn't do the same.

I'm just pointing out the fallacy of it. Treat others as you'd want to be treated and all that.

Would I take something it I needed it? Sure.
Would I smack somebody down if they tried to take what's mine? Also yes.

It's hypocritical, but it's also self-preservation.

[Pithlet]

47. Good for you

I think it's delusional to think that you'd be worried about anything other than survival at this point. But go ahead and kill to keep what's yours instaed of worrying about saving your own butt.

I just find it hard to believe that so many are incapable of seeing things outside of their own comfortable existance. Just about everyone in that area has lost everything they owned. This isn't some stupid overwrought action movie. No one is on their rooftops guarding their belongings. The only ones worrying about the looters are the anchorpeople safe and snug in their studios, and the people discussing it on message boards.

[SteppingRazor]

53. Um... I HAVE lost nearly everything I own...

To a tornado, six years ago in Missouri. College town. Looting was almost immediate, and it was almost all electronics and alcohol. And you better believe I defended what little I had left. Just my presence in what was left of my apartment was, happily, enough to make people move on to other, easier targets.

So it's not as if I don't know what I'm talking about here, kay?

[Pithlet]

61. Tornados are much smaller in scope

The people doing the looting probably were opportunistic. A whole differnt story. We aren't talking about that. I still don't think you fully understand the scope of what is going on in NO. What is happening to those people you are judging. I don't think you do.

[SonofMass]

106. How do you know what the looters motivations are? I guess when

you aren't 'judgemental' you become a mindreader?

http://urlsnip.com/587802

[Pithlet]

111. You don't have to be a mind reader

to know that people are fighting for their lives in New Orleans. So, in the face of that, I think it isn't all that unreasonable to assume that most of the things that people are taking are in an effort to, I don't know, stay alive? Silly me.

Besides, none of the armchair moralizers have pointed to all of the instances of this horrible, criminal looting of valuable, salable merchandise on a scale massive enough for it to rate the attention it's getting.

[nlik]

167. armchair moralizers

I have about heard enough of the stupid argument that you can't judge a looter unless your wading in the muck yourself. Ordinary criminals to war criminals try to use that same "you were not there" rationalization and its just as stupid and irrelevant.

[Pithlet]

179. Because

it's totally inconceivable that somebody in a disaster area with no open stores, no fresh water, no electricity might just need to steal food to survive. It's inconceivable that you might just not know how bad things are down there.

You've heard enough about people who really are doing nothing more than asking others to have some fucking empathy? I know. What a horrible thing to face. So sorry to impose. If asking people to have some empathy is stupid, then I'm guilty as charged, and I don't care.

[nlik]

192. Nothing wrong with empathy

If you want to ask for empathy do it. It beats the hell out of a stupid, fallacious, emotional argument designed to shut down any dissent.

Pithlet: "it's totally inconceivable that somebody in a disaster area with no open stores, no fresh water, no electricity might just need to steal food to survive. It's inconceivable that you might just not know how bad things are down there."

10 hours after the flooding people have to resort to thievery in order to survive? I don't buy it. Furthermore, NO is to be completely evacuated. These people should be making their way to be rescued, not to the nearest Wal-Mart electronics dept.

(Yes I know MOST people are not carting off tvs.)

[oasis]

195. Gov. Blanco announced "There is no food to be had". WWBSD?

What would a Boy Scout do?

[nlik]

197. Generally,

It takes much longer than 10 hours to even approach starving.

[Pithlet]

199. Those people had no way out.

If you have no money, and no car, how are you going to get out? You can feel free to not buy it, and I can feel free to point out that you aren't in their shoes. You are obviously at a computer in a building with power. You are already miles ahead of the game by comparison.

There is nothing stupid or fallacious in any of my statements whether you agree with them or not. I'm not trying to shut down dissent. I'm merely responding to posts. This is a message board. That is quite common. And I stand by everything I've said. It really is too easy to judge when you haven't been ruined like these people have.

[ultraist]

78. Looting is NOT a violent crime.

Looting is legally defined as theft is not considered a violent crime.

Looting does not qualify as robbery. Robbery includes force. Sneaking into a store is not using force against someone.

http://www.pls.lib.ca.us/healthysmc/12/glossary.html

[datasuspect]

213. dre would probably bust a cap in their ass

and snoop would call them "Beeeyotch!!"

[datasuspect]

212. break 'em off something!

[Zomby Woof]

16. Fuck yeah

As usual, you get to the point with resounding truth.

[Pithlet]

20. I can't believe this was even an issue here.

Anyone who wants to wag their fingers at anyone in NO while comfortably posting on their own computers is probably beyond the reaches of your appeal, but I love your post nonetheless.

[Thtwudbeme]

25. Isn't that the truth?

I talked to Michael about the possibility of us going down (we are young and healthy) to help clean up...After the kind of rosy New Orleans dodged a bullet newscasts from yesterday...I thought we could go down in a week or so.

Now, I see just how awful it really is...I don't see how people like us could get IN to help in the next week--

It's so sad..

[Desertrose]

so sad and so hard to imagine what things are like for folks there...

I would do whatever it would take to get supplies and food for my loved ones.

Bless you for wanting to go & help....
:hug:
DR

[CitrusLib]

45. Yep. That's my take on the whole thing.

What a load of crap to focus on when there are more important considerations to think of. Such as oh, let's see. Saving lives? Some people here really need to get a grip.

[Lars39]

21. I don't see any of them volunteering to take the place of someone

in any of the affected area either. They're just shyte-stirrers.

[Igel]

22. Your faith in people is great.

Charity, however, begins at home. Not with other people's things; one may sympathize with those who, in the absence of the store owners take what they need for survival. It may be necessary.

But that is, of course, different from saying it's right. There's no logical connection between what is necessary and what is moral.

[crispini]

23. You're right, and now I'm going to hide all of these stupid threads.

Holy hell in a handbasket, people, WHO THE FUCK CARES? I STILL CAN'T REACH ANY OF MY FAMILY.

[Lars39]

32. Aw shit, crispini.

:hug: :cry:

[Cleita]

35. I'm so sorry. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they are okay.

:hug:

[Thtwudbeme]

37. I wish I knew what to do to make people

feel better in situations like this-

Hugs to you from me and Michael...

Please post on DU and let people know what is going on-

Stephanie

[FuzzySlippers]

44. I'm so sorry, crispini.

I hope you get through to them soon and that they are all OK.:hug:

[expatriate]

133. crispini, I am so sorry. I'm in the same boat.

Can't find out anything, and made the mistake of coming here hoping for access to more news (I live somewhere where the reporting is almost non-existent). Find threads with people bitching about looting and people who don't want anyone to post anything negative, and people betting that the next Mardi Gras will be the best ever.

Hang in there. It's all we can do. Hopefully, soon we'll find out that our family members are okay.

[Brightmore]

31. If they are stealing food to survive that's okay

But, when people start stealing TVs and other valuables they should be condemned and charged with a crime, if possible.

[Cleita]

33. It's true, It's probably a few criminal types that are doing

the big ticket items. These are people who probably live outside the law even in good times. But for CNN just to focus on this and nothing else that's going on, says more about their agenda than the truth of what is going on.

[Pithlet]

41. They know they have an audience for it.

When even people here are falling for it, you know it's bad. I think more people need to STFU and be grateful they're in their own intact homes and don't have to face the problems people in NO are instead of worrying about looters for God's sake. There's a crushed city that needs us. I doubt too many people who are just tryint to stay alive give a flying fuck about looters.

[FuzzySlippers]

36. I just think with all the loss of life

and other devastation, people who are fixated on looting need to get their priorities straight.

[MildyRules]

38. I seriously bet I DO know some of the looters

But I bet you the ones I KNOW (my family) would take only food and water and WILL pay back their neighborhood grocery store (in Ward 9 many of the grocers are local) when this is over. They ARE NOT stealing electronics and furniture and jewelry like some of those other asshole CRIMINALS are.

[Pithlet]

49. Judge them while they're there, and you're at your computer

God. I think it's time for me to go. I really am going to turn into a misanthrope if I see more of this shit.

[MildyRules]

50. Judge them?

I KNOW them. They are taking what they need to get by, but they WILL pay for it later I KNOW my family.

[Pithlet]

63. I wasn't talking about your family.

I hope your family makes it through this. I misread your post. I thought you were saying what your family would do. I'm really sorry.

I don't think the "looters" being discussed in this thread are criminals, no matter what they take.

[MildyRules]

68. I do

Some are. Jewelry and electronics, especially stuff taken from your NEIGHBORS" homes is beyond the pale. They don't NEED that to survive this.

[Pithlet]

69. Well, in cases like that, of course.

The footage I've seen is people making off with stuff from grocery stores. And that is the type of looting that some here are judging. Any areas that aren't as devastated where people are merely taking advantage of other's suffering? I'm with you, there. But, not the footage we're talking about; not the people in NO just barely trying to survive, who were abandoned and basically left to die.

[MildyRules]

72. Not all were "abandoned"

Some of my relatives left (one uncle and his wife, and one aunt and her hubby). They would have taken others with them ( I have three other sets of aunts and uncles there with numerous cousins), but the others CHOSE to stay. I wish they hadn't.

[Pithlet]

75. I'm so sorry.

I know this must be a difficult and frustrating time for you.

By abandoned I meant people who didn't have a choice in the matter. People who didn't have a means to leave.

[MildyRules]

77. I'm optimistic

My Mom's side of the family is resiliant...they'll be okay. I keep saying that over and over...

[Pithlet]

82. They will be in my thoughts

along with the rest of the people of NO. Many :hug: to you, and let us know if they made it through when you can.

[Athletic Grrl]

136. If they're not criminals...

...please justify the cop killing earlier today.

[Pithlet]

143. Huh?

Cop killing. Looting. Last time I checked, they were two entirely different things. See, we live in a society that actually looks at things differently and don't lump all crimes into one category and judge accordingly.

But, I guess it is easier to just paint them all as criminals. Who gives a rat's ass about the circumstances, huh? So what if they've lost everything, and don't know what the future holds? I'm going to sit at my computer and condemn and judge them. Major disaster? Who cares. Right is right and wrong is wrong. Moral rigidity. Yipee!

[G_j]

43. I agree

Give it a break. I really don't care right now.
Want to talk about looting, look to Halliburton etc.

[Gelliebeans]

103. exactly

if we want to reeeeeally delve into the real looters of this country we need to look no further than the chimp in office.

[G_j]

109. Looter & Chief

perhaps they should concentrate on acts of looting that add up to more than a billion dollars, that should cover most everyone at the 'top'.

[jonnyblitz]

48. exactly Thtwudbeme!

I can't believe some of the posts I am reading today. oh wait, yes i can..:eyes:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

56. A fucking men

[peacetalksforall]

70. You can be sure that one or more Republican think tanks are

studying the human behavior aspect of this to know how to write guidelines for future martial law declarations and orders.

[Hubert Flottz]

71. Those folks could carry off things for YEARS and never come

close to what Dick Cheney has looted!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

80. Well said! Thanks!

[mondo joe]

84. That will be a great comfort to people whose homes and small

businesses are looted.

[liberalitch]

86. many poor folks are enduring without stooping to this

[Pithlet]

93. Judge judge judge!

Again, like I just said... Gah.....

[mondo joe]

95. Sorry but I don't think it's okay to victimize people who are already

suffering through this tragedy.

[Pithlet]

96. Sorry

But I don't think it's okay to judge people who are only fighting to survive. Especially not from my own entact home on my computer. What happened in NO is so far beyond the scope of misery that most people could even comprehend. To sit in judgment of them is sanctimonious at best.

[mondo joe]

114. I'm not judging people fighting to survive. I'm judging people

who are exploiting this situation to steal other people's posessions - and I'm not talking food or medicine.

If you want to defend those who are using this oppotrunity to victimize people who are already suffering.

[Pithlet]

118. I'm not

I am in no way supporting the victimization of anyone. But, we aren't talking about looting in general. This is a thread about the people in New Orleans. I do think this is a special circumstance due to the extent of damage. Damage isn't even the right word; it's hard for me to even come up with a word I feel is accurate to describe what happened to those poor people. And I think that harping on the looting and making any kind of moral judgments when that really is the absolute least of NO's worries is judgmental, harsh and sanctimonious at this point. I do.

It really is hard for me to imagine why this would be an issue for anyone right now. For someone from the outside who hasn't lost everything to go into NO and loot? Despicable. Absolutely. But I flat out refuse to judge a person who's absolutely lost everything and is wading through neck high water with no idea what is going to happen to them in the future. And I'm not going to give high fives to those that do, to say the least.

[mondo joe]

137. I don't believe there is a special circumstance that mitigates the

crime of stealing from other people's homes and businesses, other than a real need for food or medicine.

I don't care if your house was washed away, you grew up poor or anything else.

Why is this an issue for me? Because these actions compound the tragedy for those whose possessions are robbed by people exploiting the opportunity.

Property is not the exclusive provence of the wealthy or corporations. A lot of lower and middle income people will be hurt by malicious looting. I don't see why THAT isn't a cause of concern for others. How can so many people on DU not care that people already devastated by Katrina will find their few possessions stolen, or their family business destroyed?

If that's judgmental of me, then I'm judgmental. And I don't need to be in a hurricane to know that it does not justify stealing from someone ELSE in a hurricane, just like I don't need to be an Abu Ghraib guard to know torturing prisoners there is wrong.

[Pithlet]

157. This is where you and I differ.

I do get what you're saying. However, I'm not going to judge them as harshly as, say, your average criminal who decides to randomly victimize another home or business in normal, non-disaster times.

What I'm saynig is sometimes desperation drives people to do things they wouldn't normally do. And there is nothing wrong with acknowleding that. It isn't giving people a pass to do so, nor is it saying stealing is right. I'm not saying what they're doing is right. But I wouldn't lump them in with your average criminal, either. I don't think it's right to do that.

[mondo joe]

171. Many people lives desperate lives. I don't think that gives them a

pass to steal from their neighbors without criticism or judgment.

[Pithlet]

176. Nothing wrong with criticism or judgment.

It's people who are unwilling to accept mitigating circumstances in their judgments that I can't stand. It's the stubborn lack of empathy for the situation of others that infuriates me. I'm not saying people shouldn't face the consequences of their actions. I'm talking about personal judgment. And I do have a problem with those who will judge the victims of this disaster from their own comfortable non affected lives.

[liberalitch]

193. What sort of babies eat color tvs?

[Pithlet]

196. These people were ruined.

Utterly ruined. I don't understand the kind of person who could look at the footage of these people and judge. What sort of person looks at another who's lost just about everything and likens them to a common criminal?

No. Babies don't eat color TVs. You're right. But, I'm not calling for making thievery legal, so that statement really doesn't apply.

[Hubert Flottz]

209. I'd put people before a business any day!

I think it will get a hell of a lot worse there in the days to come. If your kids needed food, you'd do the same thing some of these people are doing. The ones who are stealing things that they don't need to survive are the criminals.

[Dogmudgeon]

92. How big is the looting problem, really?

FOX news keeps playing the same two clips over and over, one of which shows no actual looting, only a bunch of black people standing in knee-deep water milling around.

I can't find anything that indicates that this is a looters' holiday. Most of the looters have been described as taking food and other necessities. There has been no violence among the looters, as is common with "traditional" looting for luxury items. I'm sure that there is some of that kind of looting taking place, too, but it's absurd in a situation like this. If their homes are under water, where can they take their purloined TVs and video games, anyway?

There's only one conclusion I can draw right now -- the reports of looting are agit-prop to get chronic hotheads to tune into the news station to watch the evil looters getting away with their foul crimes. Many people are drawn to news reports that make them rant in rage. I think this is one such example.

The survivors in New Orleans are in an unenviable predicament. Looting is the least of the worries of the survivors and the emergency workers. For FOX to flog the looting footage the way they do is, well, Foxian.

--p!

[Pithlet]

94. It's Hugh!!!111111

And we shoudn't be sticking up for them! Let's donate our amo so the problem can be dealt with harshly!!!! /end :sarcasm:

Some of my fellow DUers... I just don't know.

[Ron Mexico]

97. How are you sure?

You wrote "I am just as sure that most of the people are trying to get DINNER" just after your assumption that none of us know looters down there. I'd like to know what insight you have that makes you so sure, or if that was just a poorly-chosen figure of speech on your part.

If you don't like the looting posts, don't read them instead of telling us what to stuff.

[Thtwudbeme]

98. Well, hello Ron. How are you tonight?

Hopefully sitting somewhere comfortably...like I am...contemplating your plans for the evening, nowhere near a major disaster site.

Good to see you!

Stephanie

[Ron Mexico]

110. Good to see you, too.

However, that hardly qualifies as an answer, so let me rephrase: since you claim to be sure in your assertions, what percentage of stolen goods do you believe is food, and how do you arrive at that number?

I've had so many people tell me how to feel today, I'm just looking for a source. I don't believe that hard luck justifies theft in any case, - if I ran a store down there I'd be giving food away, but if someone tried to steal from me I'd have no problem with him starving.

Oh, and if you're attempting to tell me that not being down there disauqlifies me from having an opinion, doing so is like someone telling either of us that unless we've been the president we have no place saying that Bush sucks. It also disaualifies you from having an opinion if you're not down there, assuming that this is what you're trying to tell me.

[Thtwudbeme]

116. It's not that hard to find a "source"

I have been looking at photos of looters on Yahoo all day. I am not a genius, (any old time DUer can attest to that...believe me)...if I can find them, and forumlate an opinion that we shouldn't be judgemental...and should be more worried about lives than possessions...then you can find those photos also.

I don't have time to do it now, I have to go attend a class in African-American religions....(and I am dreading it--it's going to be dull tonight)

Stephanie

[Ron Mexico]

123. Agreed, and the ones I've found are

a lot like this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/30/AR2005083000848.html . There is some mention of survival, but that certainly isn't the gist of the article.

You know, I generally look at mitigating circumstances after someone is arrested, not before. Here, though, most seem to be of the mindset that the looters are all innocent of anything other than just trying to survive ("go, looters, go!", but nobody has responded to my challenge to demonstrate it. I'm simply not buying it, and the reason why I responded to you is that you said you were sure of something so anyone who didn't agree with you should stuff their opinion.

I've seen looting before - admittedly not after a category 4 hurricane, but still after some pretty bad shit. And as I just said to somebody else, I refuse to believe that Category 3 means stolen electronics but Category 4 means nothing stolen but food.

[Pithlet]

99. Gee, the footage, maybe?

The fact that this is one of the most devastating disasters to hit in years? That this isn't one big criminal fest, and that people really are in mortal peril and fighting to survive? Just guessing.

[Ron Mexico]

105. Change my mind and point me to some.

By the footage and images I've seen, the only food item I've seen stolen was a twelve-pack of diet cola by some kid. I'm sure there's more, but a.) many people here act as if only food is being stolen, and b.) just about as many seem quite content to tell others how to feel, how to behave and what to post.

Just show me any source that indicates that food is the overwhelming majority of what's being stolen, that's all I ask.

[Pithlet]

108. No. I don't have to do that.

And I'm not quite content to tell others how to feel. But I can respond to the things they choose to say.

And, if you need someone to hand hold you and lead you to those sources in the face of such an obvious disaster, then I don't know what to say. It doesn't take much to understand what a cat 4 hurricane sinking a city the size of New Orleans will do to people. If you still don't think that the magnitude of suffering is that great, then I don't know what source will change your mind.

[Ron Mexico]

115. Nobody said you had to.

I'm just willing to bet that nobody can.

I'm not saying that there isn't a lot of suffering down there, I'm just saying that it doesn't justify theft. And yet other than a thread started by a poster named Mongo, most of what I've seen today has been "go, looters, go" as if the only thing taken is food.

I've been in the aftermath of a Florida hurricane and saw that nothing could have been further from the truth, so I'm having a hard time believing that while Category 3 means stolen electronics, Category 4 automatically bumps it up to all food, all the time. I've asked many people to demonstrate it, and nobody has. My guess is that nobody can. But that, to borrow an expression from you, is "just guessing."

[Pithlet]

124. No one is saying "Go, looters, go"

That is ridiculous. And, I think that moral rigidity, where nothing ever justifies anything, is sad and pathetic.

This was a huge disaster. I'm sorry you aren't willing to see that. I don't think anyone could demonstrate it to you because I don't think you'd see it anyway. Man. I have nothing more to say to you on this subject. But, I'll give it one more college try. Turn on your TV. Click on a few threads here at DU. Enlighten yourself as to what kind of misery and suffering is going on around the Gulf Coast right now. Maybe, then, you'll get it.

[Ron Mexico]

125. Sad and pathetic? Funny, I was thinking the same thing.

I see some mention of survival in articles like the one at http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/30/AR2005083000848.html , but that certainly isn't the gist of the article. And don't give me that "moral rigidity" crap until you can demonstrate that the lion's share of what is being stolen is food.

Nothing you've written answers anything I've asked, all you've done is write pompous crap like "I don't think anyone could demonstrate it to you because I don't think you'd see it anyway" and that I'm not WILLING to see that it's a huge disaster. What a load. I've asked repeatedly (not just you) for anyone to show that survival is the motivation behind most of the looting, and nobody has done it. So if assuming that looting is wrong until the survival aspect has been demonstrated is "sad and pathetic" "moral rigidity" to you, I would charge that it is YOU that is not willing to see any point of view but your own.

I've had a TV on New Orleans coverage in my office all damned day, and not one thing I've seen demonstrates that the looters consist solely (or even mostly) of hapless, starving waifs or those trying to support them. I asked if you'd point me to a source, and you refused (presumably because you don't have one). If all you have to defend your point is condescending drivel to the effect that I'm somehow blind if I don't see it your way, I'm glad you've got nothing more to say to me. At least I've got an open mind and am willing to have things opposite to my view demonstrated to me. You clearly aren't.

[Pithlet]

126. What in the hell does someone have to show you

to prove to you that a category 4 hurricane hitting New Orleans and sinking it under tens of feet of water is bad enough to drive people to steal to survive? I mean, how much bigger can you get?

If you can't use your imagination and figure out that losing everything you own and wandering around in ever rising water in a completely dead city might, JUST MIGHT, drive people to do things they might otherwise, and if you need more proof than that, then I don't know anyone who's going to be able to prove to your satisfaction that these people were driven by desperation. Clearly, you have very high standards. You, sir, are to be commended. I don't know what the hell I was thinking.

Good evening.

[Ron Mexico]

128. My, such a snit! And here I was thinking you had nothing to say to me!

If you can't use YOUR imagination and figure that some people take advantage of chaos for material gain, you just go ahead and assume that everything being stolen in a city of that size is for survival only. I hear that jeans and jewelry are quite nutritious, so you might be right. ;)

[Pithlet]

129. I'm not a fucking idiot.

I understand that sometimes people steal to take advantage of others. Duh. Yes, New Orleans is huge, but it not normal, every day New Orleans any more. It's under feet of water. Guess what? The malls are closed.

And, I'm not in a snit. I'm exasperated at such willful ignorance of just how bad it is down there. It's exasperating to have to argue with someone that it just might not be your average Wal Mart shoplifter operating in New Orleans at the moment. The morals, ethics and laws of the everyday working world don't exactly apply. You can't condemn someone for stealing in hurricane ravaged NO quite the same way you can your everyday thief. It just isn't that hard to grasp.

[Ron Mexico]

131. I get it, you feel the need to have the last word. Go ahead, then.

I never said it isn't bad there, but I am not willing to write off looting as "justified until proven otherwise," as you seem to be. And you definitely seem to be in a snit, because you've resorted to profanity and the condescending assumption that anyone who doesn't automatically take the looters' side is guilty of "willful ignorance" - like we're going out of our way not to benefit from your unique insight, even though we're seeing the same footage that you are.

See, if someone is stealing jewelry, CD players, Palm Pilots and jeans down there, I CAN and WILL condemn that. If looting food or medicine were the only way to keep myself and my wife alive, I'd certainly do it, but is it food and medicine which makes up the lion's share of the theft? I doubt it, because nobody has been able to demonstrate that to me despite my repeated requests. The closest I've come to receiving an answer is your high and mighty notion that those who don't automatically see it your way are of some mentally deficient subspecies.

You said earlier that you had nothing more to say to me, and then later you bade me a good evening, but you keep posting. I apologize for not realizing earlier that you're one of those who feels the need to get the last word in. Now that I realize that, I'd simply be worse than those insensitive bastards who don't assume that theft in New Orleans is a good thing until proven otherwise, so go ahead and take it.

Good evening to YOU, good sir.

[Pithlet]

132. That would be ma'am

And it looks like I got under your skin. Indeed.

[Pithlet]

135. Okay, not exactly lastworditis because I do want to address a point.

"See, if someone is stealing jewelry, CD players, Palm Pilots and jeans down there, I CAN and WILL condemn that."

The footage clearly shows that it is foodstuffs being stolen. There very well may be instances of the kind you're talking about. But, again, even if that were so, it isn't the same in this instance. The people stealing them are more than likely not career criminals but, and this is important, people who have just lost everything. No one is asking to absolve all looters and thieves. They're merely stating that there are varying levels of right and wrong, and to judge them while you're sitting in comfort might just be a wee bit over the top. Not to mention saving lives is probably worth worrying about more at this point. And that is clearly bugging you, which makes me wonder if we haven't touched a little nerve.

[Roy]

208. Show you a source??? it's in your link above

It clearly states people are gathering food and survival items, right along side the police armed with shotguns who are doing the same thing, collecting food and medicine for the sick.

I think you expose your agenda when you post a link that destroy your own arguments, arguments that support others in this thread that advocate shooting and killing people for taking items needed for survival that will be replace by insurance anyway.

Would they shoot the two police officers also who are taking the food and medicine?

After all a looter is a looter... right???

[Ron Mexico]

233. Try reading my post next time before answering.

I said, and I quote: "Just show me any source that indicates that food is the overwhelming majority of what's being stolen, that's all I ask." The link I posted does nothing of the kind, and it does not "destroy my own arguments."

And what does "expose my agenda" mean? Does being a Democrat automatically mean I have to endorse theft if things aren't going the way they should, or are you simply one of those who think anyone who doesn't buy into every bit of whatever YOUR agenda is must be a Freeper?

Also, if insurance replacing the stolen items and raising the premiums of people who don't steal is okay, please let me have your address and let me know when you'll be out of town.

[expatriate]

101. I might.

I have a relative in New Orleans who is mentally ill. He is a street person. All attempts on my part and the rest of my family's part to obtain care for him or to have him hospitalized have failed for years, because of laws made by people who have no comprehension of mental illness and the devastating effects it can have.

If he's on the street and people come along who are looting, he might just do it too. It would depend on just who is home in his mind at the time. He is often not responsible for his actions, and lives in a delusional state that probably no-one here on DU can begin to contemplate. No medication known to medical science has ever made the slightest dent on his mental state. He is easily led by people who love to take advantage of those who are vulnerable.

If this person got hungry, he would steal. If he was urged on by people with better mental processes, he would loot. He is one of those people who most people don't want to look at when they see him.

However, I still care for him, even though my time with him has brought me nothing but misery, bankruptcy, danger and pain.

Reading all these self-righteous posts about looters sickens me. You don't know who or what you're talking about, or what their personal situation might be. Sure, there are going to be some people who take advantage of such a situation - and those people might end up paying with their lives. But there are other people out there who might be involved in looting who are mentally incompetent and desperate.

There are so many positive things folks could be posting - information about relief efforts, information about things coming through on the news. I live half a world away - I don't get much news coverage of what is going on. I come here hoping to find out somethign more than the five minutes given to Katrina on my national news, and find a bunch of bluster about looting. Terrific.

What I can say to those who are fussing about looting - well, do you really know the situation? Are you just swallowing the message given by the news media, who have done very little valuable reporting of what's going on? Do you know the people looting and what their mental capabilities might be?

[Thtwudbeme]

107. Your post should be read by every single person on DU

it should be it's on thread, in fact.

When all this is a little bit calmer, I urge you to write his story as a post for DU--

I hope he is OK in this mess...but, I feared for folks like him.

Stephanie

[expatriate]

120. thank you

I hope some folks take heed.

You know,when laws were changed that used to protect people like my son, I nearly went insane myself.

"Oh, he'll be able to manage his own condition," I was told. Except, because he's so sick, he's never been able to be educated at all, and he simply does not understand. And the medication available to us does not even make a dent. At one time, people like this were simply hospitalized for life. It wasn't the greatest situation, but what the hell can you do for someone who believes a lot of the time that he's not even a human being, but some kind of superman or fantasy creature, or that he's a dog? Who has no comprehension of the consequences of his actions? Who can be told he's HIV positive, and cannot begin to comprehend what that means?

Someone like that needs custodial care - and every single time I've placed him in a mental hospital, he has been released on his own recognizance within days, because he's "not a danger to himself or others".

There are people in our society who are helpless like this, and their families are absolutely hamstrung when it comes to helping them, unless the families are rich and can simply spirit them out of the country to a private mental hospital elsewhere.

And the Prez dumps more and more money into killing brown people in Iraq every single day.

[G_j]

112. thanks

I'd nominate your post if I could.

[Thtwudbeme]

113. Not only do I concur, G_j

this should quite frankly stand on it's own, and be on the front page for days.

There is more than one issue in this post that needs to be addressed by our society-

It just breaks my heart.

Stephanie

[G_j]

121. heartbreaking..

some people are just terribly "inconvenient" and do not fit into the "system". These are the people who as the poster says, we do not want to look at. And these people in particular have less value to us than "property". The story does have something to say about our society on more than one level.

[oasis]

117. In a week or so, those "self righteous" posters will look back in shame.

And rightly so.

[Pithlet]

119. Nah. They won't. n/t

[mondo joe]

138. You mean when people now in the Dome or otherwise evacuated

learn their few posessions were stolen from their homes, or their family business destroyed?

[oasis]

139. 99 3/4 of percent of people affected will blame "Katrina". They get it.

[mondo joe]

141. People like me who don't want people already victimized by

Katrina to have to have people steal things from their homes or destroy their businesses?

Yup - that's me. But why you don't give a shit about these people being victimized by crime is a mystery to me.

[oasis]

142. Hello...is anybody there? Katrina has victimized the people. Gov. Blanco

has announced "there is no food to be had".

Do you give a shit about people's need to feed their families?

[Pithlet]

144. Circumstances don't matter.

Moral rigidity is the way to go. It is vital to judge everyone the same, and do so harshly. Preferably while sitting at a computer and most definitely not in the middle of a life threatening disaster.

[mondo joe]

149. Moral rigidity? Like it's always wrong to totrure prisoners?

I have no problem saying it: It's always wrong to torture prisoners.

It's always wrong to steal someone's property, unless you need food or medicine and have exhausted all other possibilities.

What about that is so difficult?

[Pithlet]

152. Oh, it's not difficult to comprehend

It's also not difficult to pick apart. Of course there are certain things that it is important to hold an absolute moral judgment against. Like torture, per your example, because there are no arguable benefits.

But, stealing is always equally wrong no matter what doesn't hold up as acceptable because there are certain circumstances which mitigate, even if they don't excuse.

But, really, what it comes down to is, I'm not justifying their behavior. I'm not even saying they shouldn't be punished for it. I'm saying that I just don't understand condemning them for it, and doing so from the comfort of your own home. Yeah, stealing is wrong. But to completely ignore the circumstances around it and not allow any of it to mitigate your own personal judgment is a form of moral rigidity that I abhor. No one needs to torture to survive.

[mondo joe]

155. I have no problem condemning hurting other people, even if

you do so during a hurricane.

No one needs to break into someone's home or family business to steal their TV or computer or bank.

I've already established thatstealing necessary food or medicine is not a problem.

[Pithlet]

160. That you are willing to condemn any of those victims

to me is wrong. I can't believe anyone wants to condemn someone who is desperate and has lost everything. I'm not saying I agree with their decision to steal non-necessities. But, I'm not the one who's lost everuything I've owned and is facing an uncertain future. I just don't believe I have the right to judge them personally, even if what they did is technically against the law. I'm not asking for repealing looting laws, or saying that nothing should be done. I'm asking that we realize the scope of what has happend, and take a break from any condemning.

[mondo joe]

163. I can and will condemn people for hurting each other.

And I don't think being a dem means sacrificing my critical faculties.

[Pithlet]

187. It just isn't the same.

Anyone who just saw this as an opportunity for personal gain? I'm with you in condemning them 100% And, I'm sure that there are cases where this is happening. I just don't think you can throw all looters under that same condemnation, even the ones who were stealing non-essentials. There are extenuating circumstances. There are few people on this earth who wouldn't be driven to do things they might not otherwise do under certain circumstances. Everything isn't absolute. If I thought that my life was absolutely in ruins, I don't know what I would do. I don't know what that would do to me. That piece of jewelry I never would have considered taking otherwise might start looking pretty good if my family's long term survival was in question. I'm sure I'd feel pretty bad afterwords, and I'm not saying I shouldn't be punished.

Sitting here right now I can easily say I would never steal, no matter what. But, life is very good for me right now in comparison to the poor souls in NO.

[oasis]

150. Some folks in NO would tell them what to do with their "moral rigidity"

But what would they know, they're the ones in crisis?:shrug:

[mondo joe]

156. Yes, like the people in the Dome whose homes are being ransacked.

I'm sure they're happy to have people stealing their things so when they finally come home everything will be nice and... gone.

[Pithlet]

162. No. You can't turn it back on us.

Because no one is saying they don't care about the people in the Superdome. The fact is they are ALL victims. No one is saying stealing is right. What they're saying is "condemning" them from your comfy chair in front of your computer might be a bit much. Really, that is all.

[mondo joe]

165. Of course you are saying just that.

You can't even condemn someone stealing from people's homes while they're evacuated and stick in the hell of that dome.

I don't care what happened to anyone, they shouldn't be doing that to other people.

[Pithlet]

172. No

I won't condemn people who've just been through one of the worst disasters in history and judge their actions when there are still people struggling for their lives. I've moved beyond "stealing is bad" absolute moral pronouncements. And, you have too, since you've admitted that it's okay when it is food items.

Look, if you're willing to overlook it in the case of food, then who are you to say that your limits of what you can personally judge as condemnable or not should be everyones? If you're nuanced enough to be able to make that distinction, then why can't you admit that this isn't just a simple case of stealing-bad-must-be-punished? That there just might be special circumstances here, such as complete and total devastation?

[oasis]

170. Or no home at all. Then arises the question: Were they looted before

their houses were washed away?

[mondo joe]

146. Hello: No one on DU has condemned anyone for taking FOOD.

Or if they have, I haven't seen it, and I have certainly never done so myself.

Time and time again people clarify that no one is condemning anyone for taking needed food or medicine.

But somehow that gets lost in a wash of "oh we can't judge them because we're not there."

Sometimes it's like the very worst stereotype of a liberal when so many of us can't even bring ourselves to say stealing someones jewelry or TV is wrong.

[Pithlet]

153. Many have lumped all looting in their moral pronouncements

Indeed they have.

I still won't hold the looters in NO to the same standards as I would someone who haven't just lost everything they own, no matter what they steal. Call me crazy. I just don't think one of the biggest disasters to hit our soil in many years is the greatest time to flex those superior judgmental skills. Stealing is bad, mkay? Most of us get that.

[oasis]

159. We'll see a lot of DUers issue "Pat Robertson" type denials in the days to

come.

"Uh, I never said nothing like that" or "That's not what I meant".

[mondo joe]

161. Many have? I haven't done it and I haven't seen it.

To the contrary, I've seen people get trashed by other posters after explicitly stating THIS DOESN'T APPLY TO PEOPLE TAKING FOOD OR MEDICINE THEY NEED.

And what so many people seem to keep forgetting is that those OTHER looters - you know, the non-food-and-medicine types - are actually HURTING other people who are already suffering because of the hurricane. Or maybe they didn't forget, they just don't care.

It's a sad day when being a democrat means not being able to say it's wrong to unnecessarily steal from people while they are evacuated because of a hurricane.

[Pithlet]

166. Well, look. You'll see it.

Because it is there. There is a lot of "Stealing is wrong!" going on, here.

And you're refusing to see that no one is discounting the fact that there are "bad" looters. What they're saying is it is impossible at this time not even 2 days after it happened to look at the footage and tell what kind of looters they are. That anyone can look at that horrifying footage and pass judgment on them, no matter what is in their arms, is, to me, horrifying.

[mondo joe]

168. Then be horrified.

I'm more horrified that someone could look at this tragedy and see it as an opportunity to some easy thievery.

[oasis]

177. "an opportunity to some easy thievery". Giving yourself away. Again.

It's not that hard to figure where you're coming from.

[mondo joe]

221. Apparently it is hard, since you haven't figured it out.

I am very disappointed to see people defending ransacking homes and small businesses NOT for food or medicine but for goods.

Haven't these people been through enough only to be victims of theft while they are most vulnerable?

[Pithlet]

182. If this were days later, and people outside of this tragedy

were going in, I would be with you 100%. But, I just don't see how you can judge that these people are merely seeing an opportunity. I don't know how you can look at the suffering these people are enduring and think that is what is happening. Every single person in that city right now is a victim. And I'm not going to let the fact that there is a chance some might be gleeful about their destroyed city and see it as a windfall cloud my ability to have empathy for the rest. I think you're being way too quick to judge and condemn.

[mondo joe]

222. Every person in the city is a victim. And some are compounding that

by victimizing others while they are most vulnerable.

That doesn't diminish my empathy for people who aren't harming others.

[Pithlet]

224. They aren't harming anyone

Everyone in that city is impacted to the point where the looting, on the small scale it's really occurring, is almost none. There just isn't the mass looting of expensive valuables in this case the way some in the media are spazzing about. You're clinging to that instead of just giving up and acknowledging that this is just one big mess beyond the ability of ANY of us to moralize and judge. The rules of normal every day life just do not apply there anymore. The entire city will be well under 20 feet of water or more. It won't matter if someone took a loaf of bread or a TV set. All of them are just so fucked at this point. The more that water rises, the more irrelevant our opinions, yours or mine. Anyone who is STILL harping on the people who are looting, well..

Forget it. I give up. Looting bad!!!! Damn them to hell. You win. Do your little happy dance.

[mondo joe]

225. I'm sorry, I misunderstood. Please provide the statistics on the

actual level of theft of non essential goods.

Thanks!

[Pithlet]

226. Nope. You've convinced me.

Looters should be punished. They are bad. Shame on them. I'm on your side now.

[mondo joe]

227. People who hurt other people should be punished.

Sorry my sympathy for people whose homes and businesses are being ripped off of NON ESSENTIAL goods is troublesome to you.

Maybe we can have some area Warlords like they did in Somalia to shoot people and horde food, because after all the normal rules of society don't apply and people's actions can't be judged.

[Pithlet]

228. You're right.

No. You're absolutely right. I, too, would compare those looters to genocidal warlords. You don't have to sell me any further. I'm truly convinced. I am a looter apologist no longer.

[mondo joe]

230. Goodnight Pithlet.

Nighty night.

[Desertrose]

122. Fantastic post...thank you for sharing about your unfortunate relative....

and bless you for all the help you have given him.

I acouldn't agree more, NONE of us can imagine the situation there and what w would do to survive that situation.

My heart goes out to everyone there......and a big :hug: to you & yours.
DR

[SunDrop23]

134. Nice post!

[pinto]

140. It might be worth noting that the focus on looting has a media component.

Looting is "good video" and thus becomes news. Honestly, I think there's a whole lot more happening in NO right now than looting.
Not to say it's not important, or not happening...but we know how the media likes to play up something they can stick a camera to and run a good tag line to...just a point about perspective.

[oasis]

145. Yes. The corporate media attempts to squeeze an additional story out

of the Katrina disaster.

[proud2BlibKansan]

147. This guy really needed what he looted.

:sarcasm:

[oasis]

181. "Heiniken, it's all about the beer". TM

[Lydia Leftcoast]

214. If there were no potable water in town, I'd loot beer too,

Especially if it were 90+ degrees.

In premodern times, beer and wine were the principal thirst quenchers. They aren't ideal, but they're better than nothing.

[zulchzulu]

164. Even the cops are letting the looters get what they need

I just saw a segment on CBS-News where a Walgreens on Canal Street was allowed to be...um....available.

What are people supposed to do? Starve? I can see cops wanting to stop people from stealing stereo equipment, but food and water need to be dispursed immediately.

I ask those of you who are against looting if you were faced with not being able to eat or drink water that you'd just sit it out...and die...

[oasis]

183. If I may, I'll answer for them. They would do the same damn thing.

It's all about survival.

[brentspeak]

204. I think the cops are letting people off the hook

mostly because they don't to start shooting a bunch of people. Not necessarily because they empathize with the looting.

[JustSayNO 2 Sheeples]

174. steppin in to this fray.

From the news reports, the NOPD can't keep up with the looters. They are forced to look the other way. Their cars are out of fuel and disabled. They are focusing on rescue, not property theft.

Three images I saw on ABC World News Tonight:

1) Looters in NO were shown stealing clothes and non-food items. I am mixed on this. We are supposed to be civilized but this isn't civility. It's not a question of "poor people trying to eat", it's a question of stupid people more concerned with "gettin' some stuff" rather than looking for a way out. On the other hand, all property in NO will probably be lost to the flood so who cares. Probably not the property owner.

2) People picking through the rubble on the streets in MS, trying to find items for survival. I saw one lady finding a portion of a six pack of soda. THAT is not looting, THAT is survival.

3) A woman in MS handing out ice, with a fist full of dollars. No idea how much she was charging but in a perfect world, it should have been just helping others by giving what you can... NOT charging your neighbors.

[slackmaster]

180. I'm pretty sure you have no way to be sure about that

Let me recount my first knowledge of the looters in New Orleans today.

I skimmed a couple of threads here on DU, and at about 9:00 Pacific time turned on my TV and changed the channel to CNN.

The FIRST IMAGE I SAW was a big fat guy with a shopping cart full of clothing and other items including a LARGE cardboard box marked "SONY".

I am not aware that Sony makes relief supplies, disposable diapers, etc. If I am mistaken perhaps someone could straighten me out.

Sure, some people are hungry and going after items they really need. But one of the first places to get looted was a jewelry store. That makes a bad impression on the general public.

[lynne]

202. I've seen similar footage -

- throughout the day. I don't begrudge anyone food, water, medication, first aid supplies and similar items. BUT I do have a problem with the electronics, liquor, jewelry. That's just plain theft and the hurricane is being used as a distraction.

WE will be the ones ultimately paying for the expense of the looting. I'm fine with them taking what they need to live but be damned if I'm willing to pay for someone theiving jewelry and electronics.

[Roy]

210. A LARGE box marked Sony can hold a lot of food.

Maybe you saw what you wanted to see to confirm a preconceived judgement?

Most articles I have seen says that most are taking food and survival items, even with armed police officers there with them.
(unless your watching Fox who want people to see these people not as victims of an act of God)

Why would you focus on the few who might be taking advantage of horrible situation, and ignore those who have experienced a horrific life altering experience?

That's the question I see most people asking?

[JustSayNO 2 Sheeples]

211. OMG

Get a grip, man, get a grip.

[JustSayNO 2 Sheeples]

217. Official: Prisoners Riot, Take Hostages in New Orleans

http://abcnews.go.com/?CMP=EMC-1396
A local official tells an ABC News affiliate in Baton Rouge, La., that inmates at Orleans Parish Prison are rioting and have taken hostages -- including children -- using homemade weapons.

I'm sure that they just want food. So it's okay.

[slackmaster]

235. Yeah, and it can also hold a large TV set

Most articles I have seen says that most are taking food and survival items, even with armed police officers there with them.

Taking survival items is quite a different issue than taking advantage of the disaster to enrich yourself. Both processes are happening.

Why would you focus on the few who might be taking advantage of horrible situation, and ignore those who have experienced a horrific life altering experience?

I've sent money to the relief effort and I am going to donate some blood tomorrow. That is my focus. In this thread I was simply responding to something someone else wrote.

[LanternWaste]

188. complete empathy

Steph,

I have complete empathy for anyone stuck in that mess who is trying to survive or help their families to survive.

Between you and me, I really don't think that when these individuals stand before God on their day of judgement, he will hold them in contempt for their actions.

Edited.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

216. A report by one CNN reporter was a further indication of desperation

Aodora Udoji of CNN reported that people had no information. They didn't know where to go or what to do, where the Red Cross was, where the National Guard was, what the plans were, anything.

This kind of confusion could trigger all kinds of uncharacteristic behavior. It must seem like the end of the world if you have no electricity, no water, no food, no information about when and if help is coming. If you're poor and black, you have no reason to trust The Man, and I wouldn't be surprised if rumors are spreading that black residents are being abandoned.

[Lorien]

219. Plus it's hot and humid as hell down here right now

(throughout the South, I mean). Tempers rise with the heat index.

[Lorien]

218. I'm sick and tired of absolutes

SOME of the looters are hungry

SOME of the looters are opportunists who just want stuff

SOME of the people who are trapped there were too poor to leave

SOME of the people who are trapped there chose to stay because they didn't think it would be too bad/ wanted an adventure/ are stubborn/ thought they could save their stuff/ thought evacuating was "too much trouble" etc.

We can't say "most" because we truly don't know how many people are still there, why they are there, or their motivations. We can't make blanket statements like "looters are poor and starving and need to steal to survive" or "looters are despicable opportunists who are trying to profit from a horrible situation". We simply don't have enough information and can never know what's in the minds of each and every soul there. Can't we just leave it at "some people are starving, and some people are misbehaving"?

[magellan]

223. The voice of reason

Thank you, Lorien.

[Pithlet]

229. I agree.

Although, I would lean towards the heavier side of most conisdering the circumstances. But absolutes are not the way to go.

[Moderator]

236. Locking.....

This thread has run its course.