National Guard And Army Corps Of Engineers To Repair Breach

[DemocratSinceBirth]

Sounds like a bit of progress....

More promising than discussing looters....

[benburch]

1. They need to emplace weighted sand bags...

That are heavy enough to equal the pressure of the water. I am not optimistic that this can be done, but of course they need to try.

[madrchsod]

3. they maybe able to because of the force of

water would not be as great such as the mississppi river floods..but if the levee is weak in one spot the water will look for another..

[DemocratSinceBirth]

5. I Don't Know Diddly About Engineering Or Physics

but I know the Army Corps of Engineers do amazing things during wartime...

[CityZen-X]

2. Sorry To Put Kink In the G.N

but the Bu$h*t criminal cabal has cut the funding for the Army Corps of Engineers by 70-million. More power to them, lets hope we do not experience a Rovian manufactured disaster in the near future>

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. I Am Trying To Remain Positive

I lived through four canes last year...

Giving into despair isn't the answer....

I have made a donation to the Red Cross and am thinking of other ways to help....

Plus, the looter threads are tiresome and unnecessarily divisive....

[shraby]

4. I just yelled at CNN and told them

enough with the looters, I wanted to know what was going on with the levees. Maybe a lot more people yelled too.

[Walt Starr]

7. Hopefully, FEMA will work on some modern pumps

Once the breaches are secured, the existing pumps will take forever. They need new pumps.

[benburch]

8. New pumps of this size will take months to fabricate.

You just can't buy them from a warehouse, Walt.

[Walt Starr]

11. Look at what's happening, they might have months!

Two definite levee breaks, possibly a third. Who knows how much damage has been done to the city side of the levees since the flooding started.

They might have months to come up with more pumps.

[benburch]

63. Sadly, you might be correct.

:(

[yodermon]

9. Toothpaste is out of the tube.

Putting the cap back on doesn't clean up the mess.
:(

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. I Don't Understand....

I'm not trying to be argumentative but should folks throw up their hands , give in to the darkness, and just let the city turn into a giant toxic lake.....

[stanwyck]

12. Remember, many in the Guard

are now in Iraq. Along with their equipment.
That is another one of the costs of the war in Iraq.

[steve2470]

13. fema guy bill lokey confident breaches can be filled

mary landrieu nodding....will take time...again, either he is being straight or trying to put on a good game face

[leftchick]

14. he also said they haven't figured out how to do it yet!

:(

[hobbit709]

15. Once the water reaches equilibrum

and the current won't wash out what they're throwing in the hole.

[ramapo]

17. Then there'll be a lot of pumping

The water will be trapped in the city and will have to be pumped out. How long might that take???

[rinsd]

19. It depends....

...NO has massive pumps for flooding. But when theose pumps will be functional again remain to be seen.

Dave Attell's "Up all Night Show" actually visited these pumping stations to hang out with the nightwatchmen.

[Kolesar]

23. That's where I saw that!

I recall seeing those gleeming, brassy pumps, but I did not recover where or when.

[barbaraann]

16. Is he a political appointee or an engineer?

n/t

[Kagemusha]

18. Any fool can close a barn door once the horses are out.

If that's the standard well, that's the standard...

[Xenotime]

20. Good one

[Dogmudgeon]

21. He'll be the one to take the fall

Chances are, after the hearings and investigations and grand juries, Bill Lokey's ass will be grass, while Team Bush -- which eviscerated the FEMA budget for Gulf Coast hurricane preparedness -- will receive a carte blanche for their not-so-benign neglect.

It's always "someone else" who takes the fall when Bush's irresponsibility causes damage.

I guess Lokey is in a state of denial. He's going to be in a world of undeserved hurt in a couple months.

--p!

[Eloriel]

25. And here's all about the budget cuts for NOLA -- MUST READ

or so I consider it:

When the levee breaks
http://www.pnionline.com/dnblog/attytood/archives/002331.html

[jokerman93]

22. Good to know that FEMA is going to use

Good to know that FEMA is going to use that unexplained 100 million dollar FEMA rider the Republicans snuck into the 18B emrgency war supplement way back when.

Hope they use it wisely -- if it's not been spent on tasers and pulse beam weapons, or pocketed by now.

[Sgent]

24. At least in theory

pumps move 4in 1st hour and 1in/hour after that.

So figure if its an average lvl of 5', it would take 2 1/2 days.

[never cry wolf]

62. The pumps won't work

I read in another thread, the regular pumps are flooded and there is no power to them, in order to get them working againg the whole place needs to be drained first and power restored. Any pumping will have to be by free standing pumps brought in.

[Modem Butterfly]

26. "Bowl will fill if levee breach continues" - This is it

WWL-TV: "Break in 17th Street Canal Levee is now 200 feet wide and slowly flooding the City of New Orleans. Huge sand bags are being airlifted to try to stem the rush of water in that area. The expectations are that the water will not stop until it reaches lake level."

[Mari333]

27. and you can blame the levee breach on Bush, who cut funding

http://www.pnionline.com/dnblog/attytood/archives/002331.html

[Eloriel]

49. MUST READ synopsis of the funding issue -- Bush's budget cuts n/t

[elehhhhna]

28. Approx. how deep is "lake level"?

[Botany]

29. 16'

:cry:

[CottonBear]

32. About 14 or 15 feet. The lake is a shallow brackish lake connected

to the ocean through the Rigolets.

[Modem Butterfly]

39. Add 8-10 feet for New Orleans' negative elevation...

[Kolesar]

38. 1 foot normally and 11.5 feet during a hurricane

The hurricane is gone, so the swell ought not be as high as 11.5 anymore. This is according to yesterday's Plain Dealer.

[SammyWinstonJack]

30. According to some here , you are 'panic mongering'

:eyes:

[Modem Butterfly]

47. It may be time to panic

[Modem Butterfly]

31. Comment from a hydrologist

"Hi all - I'm a hydrologist & I thought I'd explain what mechanics behind a levee breach. Essentially what you have is water levels on one side of the levee higher than the water level on the other side. So water will flow from the higher side to the lower side until both sides are equal.

Since the lake has an nearly infinitely source of water from the Gulf, the lake level won't drop too much. So water will continue to flow into the city until the water levels equalize. The amount of flow through the levee is shown by the following equation Q=CLH^3/2, where Q is flow, C is a coefficient, L=the width of breach, and H=is the depth of water flowing over the levee. So the flow over the breach is directly related to the width of the breach & the dept hof water flowing over it. However, as the water level gets closer & closer to equalizing, the flow across the breach will slow down (which is not accounted for in the basic equation).

I've also used similar computer models that the two professors from LSU were describing. In fact I've met with the two of them in the past. Let's just say that it is somewhat of a inexact science, but the models can give a good idea of what to expect."

http://www.haloscan.com/comments/trojanloy/112541978646935009/#164609

[markus]

37. Thank you

Yes, the bowl will fill if left running.

They have to plug the breach, and start the pumps.

If you look closely at the photo that was on the MSNBC homepage, you will notice that the water was running *out* of St. Bernard Parish (Arabi) and back into the inner basin, unless my old eyes decieve me.

This is a recoverable event for people who's homes are immersed forever.

It will not be the end of the world. It will not be the end of New Orleans. The city has been there for about 300 years, and will survive.

[Ian David]

43. At first I thought you were wrong. I was using the equation Q=CL/H^3/2

Thank you for posting the correct equation.

Silly me.

Q=CLH^3/2

I always get that one wrong, especially when I'm doing it in my head like I was.

[hunter]

45. yes

:cry:

[WiseButAngrySara]

53. This might be a dumb question, but I wondered about it since early this

am when it was announced suddenly on MSNBC that the VP of Tulane Hospital was thinking about evacuating the patients because of a leak 2 blocks in length on the 17th street(?) canal. (I worked at Tulane Hosp and Charity in 1994, and I love the city!)

The question: What are the levee's lined with? If sand bags can even be considered to stop/repair the breach, can't a polyethylene/plastic/super glue type substance (which is water impermeable anyway) be sprayed or painted? Reminds me of the Dutch Boy story with his finger in the dike...Something better than sandbags, surely is available in this synthetic world?

[Dogmudgeon]

57. Thanks for the technical details

The quote about it being an inexact science is also worth pondering. Most of these levees seem to have sustained considerable erosion, and the fear is that several more will open up over the next few weeks. While each individual breach can be measured to give a good idea of how much water will come in at any given time, the opening of new breaches will not be predictable.

IIRC, many of the towns along the Gulf Coast are also built in "bowls" like New Orleans. Has any information on these towns come to light yet?

--p!

[spuddonna]

61. Yeah, and this is assuming we have no other breaks...

With the increase from the flooding waters, there will probably be more breaches, although I'm praying there aren't...

[halobeam]

33. O.M.G.

Can't they get Cruise Ships in there to get these people out? Seems like it would be easier to level a pathway, ...to Superdome for one place I can think of... it would immediately fill with water wouldn't it so the ship could get close to it... they could drop their lifeboats down and get these people out maybe?

[liberalpragmatist]

34. Except that the Lake is only about 20 feet deep

So I doubt that cruise ships could go through it. Though I could well be wrong - I don't know a lot about these things.

[Hobarticus]

48. Shallow-draft commercial barges?

NO is a major destination for a lot of the commercial barge traffic up and down the Mississippi. Maybe that would help, to get some of the barge-and-tugs in for rescue.

[AgadorSparticus]

51. or perhaps a fleet of huge pontoons?

i can't think of another vessel that could easily maneuver through fairly shallow waters and carry that many people out in a reasonable timeframe. of course, it's not like there are fleets of pontoons just sitting idle nearby. :shrug:

[CottonBear]

40. Big cruise and gambling ships dock near the big hotels.

The port of NO docks very large freighters and military ships. I'm not sure how they will get the people out of there. Smaller ships (used to) go up the industrial canal which is now underwater I think.

[Spider Jerusalem]

42. Cruise ships draw too much water.

You'd need shallow-draft vessels. I'm sure they're probably mobilising everything the Coast Guard has that can do the job; they ought to be asking anyone will a small fishing boat or pleasure vessel to pitch in and help, like the Brits did with the Dunkirk evacuation.

[CottonBear]

52. The Port of NO is on the Mississippi River. NO is surrounded

by water. The Lake is to the north. The river lies to the north, west and south. Any evacuation by boat would most likely take place by river. The lake is primarily accessed by pleasure boats.

[Catherine Vincent]

46. All there cruise ships are here in Galveston.

But I don't think the flood waters near the superdome are deep enough for the cruise ships to pick these people up.

[bluedog]

35. okay thats it!! Call your reps NOW

leave messages........thell them this is bullshit.funding was cut under buah and now people are going to die.and bush plays Nero......I have had enough of this man.of his war.when we have a major disaster here in the states...get out elected reps off their collective asses to enforce the impeachment rule!

[Cleita]

36. I was afraid some thing like this would happen. n/t

[lonestarnot]

41. Nope they stopped with the sand bags as it wasn't working.

[Drewskie]

59. where?

where did you read this?

[HadItUpToHere]

60. in chicago- they tried plugging the hole in the bottom of the river...

with mattresses.

it didn't work.

[HadItUpToHere]

44. this reminds me of the Great Chicago Flood of '92

when somebody punched a hole in the bottom of the river into a network of long-abandonded tunnels that connected to the basements of most iof the downtown buildings...

only this ('Nawlins) is A LOT worse.

[Xenotime]

50. Where there bodies floating in the streets of Chicago?

Nothing against you just it reminds me more of the Tsunami of 04

[HadItUpToHere]

54. no, but there were fish swimming in a lot of basements...

the breaking leveee is what i was referring too-since that's what the original thread was about.

any bodies floating around would be from the hurricane, not the levee breach.

[elehhhhna]

55. Chicago was nothing compared to this. Nothing.

[HadItUpToHere]

56. once again- I was referring to the levee breach, not the hurricane...

since that's what the original thread was about...

:sheesh:

[elehhhhna]

58. 'kay.sorry.