Does anyone know. Is Rove a neo-con?

[screembloodymurder]

Is he a Cheney disciple? Seriously, I just watched William Kristol on FOX (surfing accident) he talked about a war within the WH. The neo-cons against the non-neo-cons. Here's my theory. Because of the problems in Iraq, Bush is facing a mutiny w/i his administration. Those who feel the policy was wrong are going after the neo-cons. They're leaking on the leakers. Cheney has pissed off a lot of people, including the CIA. Cheney also heads the neo-cons and is therefore responsible for a failed war policy. If Bush wants to protect his ass, he let's Cheney take the fall.

Now, Bush isn't smart enough to have planned this, but Rove is. Maybe, Novak's not as stupid as we think. Maybe, he was given the information by Cheney's minions and called his good buddy Karl Rove. Maybe Karl, seeing an opportunity, encouraged Novak to use the story knowing that it could be used to oust the VP and discredit the war mongers. He deflects criticism from Bush, cleans house in the administration, and gains even more power for himself.

Kaiser Soze' is alive.

[Classical_Liberal]

1. This seems plausible

but I think Rove is kind of a neocon. Charlie Rose repeated his interviews before the war, and he was definately attacking the peaceniks. He may be an opportunists though who now sees the neocon view as a liability.

[screembloodymurder]

3. Was Karl a member of PNAC ?

I don't remember seeing his signature.

[Classical_Liberal]

5. I don't either

but not all neocons are members. They still practice the philosophy.

[Stephanie]

2. I don't think the neo-cons would have him

Too low-brow. They might employ him as a flunky. But he doesn't have the credentials to hang with them.

[Classical_Liberal]

4. You don't consider Perle and Rummy lowbrow?

?

[Stephanie]

9. They have some academic credentials

They have held positions of power. They are useful to PNAC. Rove is just a hack.

[Classical_Liberal]

10. Like what?

?

[Stephanie]

16. Rove is a college drop-out. He's a political hack and nothing more

Not defending the neo-cons, believe me I know they are slime, I'm just saying Rove isn't good enough even for them. And they have delusions of grandeur, obviously.

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Perle#Education_and_early_career

Education and early career

Perle earned a B.A. from the University of Southern California in 1964 and an M.A. in political science from Princeton University in 1967.

From 1969 to 1980, he worked as a staffer for Democratic Senator Henry M. Jackson of Washington. He lost one of his positions after the FBI revealed that he had passed on classified information to Israel. From 1981 to 1987, Perle was Assistant Secretary of Defense for international security policy in the Reagan administration. He received criticism for accepting a major payment from an Israeli arms manufacturer, but was not prosecuted.


http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumsfeld

Donald Henry Rumsfeld (born July 9, 1932) became the 21st Secretary of Defense of the United States in 2001. Before that, he had a long career in private industry and public service.

Born in Chicago, Illinois, he attended Princeton University on scholarship (AB, 1954) and served in the United States Navy (1954-57) as a Naval aviator. He went to Washington, DC, in 1957, during the Eisenhower Administration, to serve as Administrative Assistant to a Congressman. After a stint with an investment banking firm, he was elected to the U.S. House of Representatives from Illinois in 1962, at the age of 30, and was re-elected in 1964, 1966, and 1968.

Rumsfeld resigned from Congress in 1969 during his fourth term to serve in the Nixon Administration as:


Director of the Office of Economic Opportunity, Assistant to the President, and a member of the President's Cabinet (1969-1970);
Counsellor to the President, Director of the Economic Stabilization Program; member of the President's Cabinet (1971-1972).
In 1973, he left Washington, DC, to serve as U.S. ambassador to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) in Brussels, Belgium (1973-1974).

In August 1974, he was called back to Washington, DC, to serve in the Ford Administration successively as:


Chairman of the transition to the Presidency of Gerald R. Ford (1974); White House Chief of Staff member of the President's Cabinet (1974-1975); The 13th U.S. Secretary of Defense (1975-1977), the youngest in the country's history

[Classical_Liberal]

18. I don't think they are as intellectual as you give them credit for

Rove has all the right heroes. William McKinnely and TR foreign policy, though not his domestic policy.

[Stephanie]

24. Are we talking specifically about the PNAC neo-cons?

I'm saying I don't think Rove is a signatory to anything in PNAC. I don't think he is part of the Cheney/Perle/Wolfowitz/Libby/Feith cabal in the DoD. I'm not talking about ideology, although I doubt Rove has any. Does he? Aside from winning?

And I don't mean to give those guys any credit. I think they are profoundly stupid. But that's not how they think of themselves. They think they are quite the geniuses, set upon this Earth to play a grand game of Risk with other people's lives because Leo Strauss told them they could.

I just don't believe they'd think enough of Rove to let him play, although they would certainly USE him for their purposes, just as they're using Chimpy.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=110&topic_id=80

[screembloodymurder]

26. Kristol knows what's going down.

He seemed to be making a plea to Bush. He said Bush had to get the WH under control. When a prominent member of PNAC goes on FOX to chastise Bush, it tells me PNAC doesn't have the Presidents ear.

[Classical_Liberal]

28. not all neocons signed the PNAC documents.

.

[Stephanie]

30. Well I guess we're into semantics

When people say neo-cons usually they're referring to the group who signed PNAC and are now ensconced in DoD and the VP's office. If we are just talking about ideology, then who knows. Anyone who feels the U.S. is entitled to take over the ME, install puppet governments and then move on to China to enforce world hegemony I guess could be defined as neo-con. But does Rove have an ideology? I'm seriously asking - I just don't know.

[Classical_Liberal]

34. My point of concern has always been their alliance with

the rapture type christians and the military industrial complex. The CNP angle.

[Stephanie]

37. What is CNP?

I don't see the neo-cons so much allied with the fundamentalists and big oil/big industry as employing them for their purposes. Struass lays this out WRT to religion.

[Classical_Liberal]

39. They are using each other

It is the lynch pin that has all three groups represented. http://www.cybertime.net/~ajgood/elites.html

The likudnics don't have the numbers in the Jewish community to scare congress into supporting them, but they do with the cooperation of the religious right, so Tim Lahay publishes the left behind books to enlist christians in supporting Likudnik "Greater Israel" policies, and the military industrial complex reaps the profits from this formulation, basically by funding the military conflict this creates.

[screembloodymurder]

32. hmmmm

. Neo-cons. Prophetic?

[soothsayer]

6. conspiracy theory sez neocons mad at rove for telling * no more wars

during his first term.

So they (neocons) want to throw rove under the bus.

who noze

[ElsewheresDaughter]

7. are you kidding me...Rove feel in love at the age of 9 with Nixon and went

to work for him compiling the list of jews in the beurocrat for Nixon.

http://www.famoustexans.com/karlrove.htm

and only in texas can you become a professor at the university without ever having gotten a degree....

snip

Born: December 25, 1950 in Denver, and grew up in Colorado, Utah and Nevada.

Family: His father was a geologist. At age nine, Rove became a faithful Republican when he backed Richard Nixon against John Kennedy.

Education: Attended nearly half a dozen colleges without getting a degree.

Profession: Teaches graduate students at the University of Texas.

more...

[Classical_Liberal]

12. the neocons have never shied away from fundamentalist

antisemites. Falwell and Robertson are the biggest supporters of "Greater Israel" in washington.

[soothsayer]

8. Also, does Rove really have dual citizenship? and if so..

...what's the other country? (i'm assuming one is the US, but who knows)

[Classical_Liberal]

14. No he doesn't have dual citizenship

Rove is from the fundamentlist wing of the neocons if he is a neocon at all.

[soothsayer]

19. does he have an accent?

not that there's anything wrong with that.

[Classical_Liberal]

22. Yeah Texas

.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

35. Rove apparently has dual citizenship - U. S. & Germany....

I found the articles listed below by using a series of simple Google searches:
----------------------------------------------------
Ambassador Wilson Affair: The End of Karl Rove?
by AL MARTIN
<http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=2&contentid=933>

"According to reliable sources, as well as our own Al Martin Raw.com investigation, Karl Rove is, in fact, the grandson of Karl Heinz Rover, the Gauleiter of Oldenburg (incorrectly reported previously as Mecklenberg).

Rove's grandfather Rover was evidently not only the Gauleiter, but the Reich-Statthalter (or governor, comparable to the Nazi State Party Chairman for the city-region), who was also a partner and senior engineer in a company which built Birkenau, the concentration camp in Nazi Germany."

MY NOTE: Interesting that Rove's grandfather was allegedly a Nazi that helped build Birkenau, while Dubya's grandfather Prescott Bush, and great-grandfather, Herbert Walker, made loans to the Nazis that allegedly were used to build Auschwitz.
----------------------------------------------------------
Here's another version of the story noted above:
----------------------------------------------------------
Ambassador Wilson Affair: The End of Karl Rove?
Israpundit
<http://israpundit.com/archives/003329.html>

"Ambassador Joseph Wilson has been turning up the heat in this situation. He revealed, on Friday, August 29, in a symposium in Washington, the name of the person in the Bush administration, who had leaked out to the Washington Post that Wilson's wife is a CIA agent of 26 years. As a consequence of this leak, her entire team of overseas assets were liquidated."
--------------------------------------------------------------
....and one final version:
--------------------------------------------------------------
KARL ROVERER AKA CARL ROVE DUAL CITIZEN OF GERMANY AND U.S/
<http://www.wiolawapress.com/karl.htm>

"So Karl Rove has been identified as the leaker responsible for the deaths of more than 70 CIA assets overseas (See previous story "Will the Real Chemical Ali Please Stand Up? The Curious Case of Ambassador Joseph Wilson)

When Ambassador Wilson was asked how he knew it was Rove, he had documents in his possession identifying Rove as the leaker from a secret investigation of the State Department's Internal Security Unit. It was a from a small clique, four Clinton holdovers in that department of the State Department that were sympathetic to what had happened to Wilson.

These investigations could not have possibly been made without at least the tacit acquiescence of Secretary of State Colin Powell."
---------------------------------------------------------------

MY NOTE: So, are we to understand that an investigation has already been conducted, by the State Department itself? And that they found documents to prove their case? This is amazing stuff if true! Additionally, was Kelly, the British WMD expert and recent "suicide", a member of Plame's network?

[Jacobin]

11. Is the Pope Catholic?

[screembloodymurder]

15. So who's leaking?

Powell?

[Classical_Liberal]

21. Powell is nowhere in this equation

Everyone saying it is either Rove or Scooter Libby, or some unknown Cheney operative.

[screembloodymurder]

23. I'm not talking about the CIA unmasking

I'm refering to the WH leaks about Novak's sources.

[Jacobin]

31. Cheney. Bank on it

[leftofthedial]

13. he has no guiding principles

he is a pure power junkie

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

17. I think Cheney is higher in rank than Rove

I think Rove is just a marketeer. He's a party hack, and a good one. Cheney is a corporate military-industrial guy from way, way back, the Ford administration if not Nixon. Cheney basicly works for Halliburton and Exxon-Mobil from what I can tell.

[screembloodymurder]

20. Well if I'm marketing the President,

I'm pissed at the neo-cons and especially Cheney.

[elfin]

25. Rove is whatever he needs to be

to position himself next to power and win against Dems. I don't think he cares about much of anything, other than winning any which way he can. He may have overstepped this time. Slamming McCain is one thing - screwing with the CIA is another.

[eleny]

27. Maybe Bush

meant to bring the two groups together with his "I'm a uniter, not a divider" assertion?

[screembloodymurder]

29. I think we may be witnessing

a neo-con purge.

[PurityOfEssence]

33. Well, with any luck, he'll at least be a con...

A little obstruction or perjury or something along those lines...

[Jackpine Radical]

36. Rove is an opportunist, a simple psychopath, nothing more.

He controls by dirty tricks, rage, intimidation, and sheer chutzpah, far too absorbed in his self-serving manipulations to have anything resembling an ideal or a political philosophy that extends beyond winning at any cost.

[Stephanie]

38. I agree

I don't think he's the brightest light in the marquee. Seriously. One trick pony.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

41. Lust for power is his idealogy.

[screembloodymurder]

40. Kristol said there's a war going on in the WH

the PNAC neo-cons are one side, who's on the other side?

[punpirate]

42. Back to the original question....

From one of the authors of _Bush's Brain_:

http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/03/06/02_moore.html

Moore conceives of Rove as profoundly fundamentalist Christian, which explains why Bush is always pandering to the religious far right, because both he and Rove see them as their core constituency.

And, no, I doubt that Rove even thought of this as a means of a wholesale house-cleaning before the elections. I think, from other readings (such as Ron Suskind's January, 2003 Esquire article) that Rove, like Bush, has a temper of stratospheric proportions. Both have an unbelievable capacity to carry a grudge and seek revenge. Wilson calling the White House, in effect, liars, pissed off them both. And, if anything, Rove knows how to accomplish two things at once with the same action--screwing both Wilson and the CIA simultaneously, and putting the fear of god into other potential whistleblowers and naysayers.

Remember that the CIA did not exactly run to defend the liars in the administration, particularly Cheney and Bush and Powell, and when the evidence began to mount against both the Bush administration and the Blair government, the CIA did considerable hemming and hawing and evading having to come down solidly on one side or the other. For two people such as Bush and Rove, both of whom are incapable of seeing any issue except in the narrowest black-and-white terms, the CIA was being disloyal to the President.

My own feeling is that Rove and Bush were in a fury over Wilson's going public with the substance of his report, and Rove handled it, in his own inimitable fashion.

Cheers.

[screembloodymurder]

43. Some say Cheney's people (Scooter) phoned the reporters

Others say Rove. But Cheney is the one who's still pushing the bad intelligence. This is getting real interesting.

[punpirate]

44. Well, Rove would not do this himself...

... in his capacity in the White House as the central political advisor.

But, for a moment, imagine Rove and Bush getting more and more worked up at _Bush_ being outed for the liar that he is (that is the way they would conceive of it). What does Rove do? Spend about 30 seconds thinking about it and calls Cheney. What do we have on Wilson? And from there, it proceeds. Rove is the mastermind, no matter who made the calls. Hence, his later reported quotes that Wilson's wife "was fair game." That's acknowledgment and approval.

Cheers.