Looters

[GaYellowDawg]

If I had a kid who'd been cut by debris while making my way to high ground, and there was a store with some Bactine and Band-Aids with no one available to sell them to me, would I go in and get them? Hell, yes, I would.

If I didn't have any food because my refrigerator and pantry were underwater, and there was a semi-flooded grocery store with canned goods with no one available to sell them to me, would I go in and get them? Absolutely.

How are people supposed to buy things? How much money should they have on their persons, anyway? Unless they stopped to stuff their wallets in the scramble from their homes, they're pretty close to broke, and it's not like they could don scuba gear and swim down to the nearest ATM. How much money do any of you have in your wallets?

From whom should they buy? From nonexistent cashiers? Does anyone think that there are people manning the registers in stores right now? The system of goods and services has completely broken down, and people have to survive. I'd say that justifies taking whatever you can find - food, medical supplies, rain gear, whatever. I doubt that I would grab a bottle of Jack Daniels so that I could forget about the destruction of my home and city for a little bit, but I can't blame someone who would.

Of course, your garden-variety Freeper doesn't see it that way. The reason: a lack of empathy. A lack of the reasoning skills that it takes to put yourself in someone else's place. And let's be honest: I don't think that it's a coincidence that the photos that they reacted strongly to were of people of color.

[Sequoia]

1. I'd grab the booze

It'll help for medical reasons too.

[LSparkle]

5. Hell, yeah, me too

"Sure takes the sting outta bein' occupied" (Sam in "Casablanca").

[JimmyJazz]

2. There is a big distinction between looting for necessity and

looting because of lawlessness and the law recognizes that distinction.

[Kerrytravelers]

6. Thank you.

Thunderous applause.

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[bpilgrim]

13. here is what the law thinks ---------- ------------- > MP3

http://news.globalfreepress.com/mp3/katrina/looting_will_be_treated_ruthlessly.mp3


http://media.globalfreepress.com

peace

[VADem11]

17. Exactly

[Saphire]

89. Maybe someone should tell the freepers that. They are ready

to shoot people for taking food and water. Some people have no common sense. Now, on the other hand...I did see some looters taking stuff just to take it, like the antique desk with the tags still on it. There they were, pushing it down the street, but what the shit are they going to do with it?

[SmokingJacket]

94. Maybe they were saving it?

God knows what's going to be left intact after this is over.

[Mairead]

104. "The law is an ass" It recognises only the most narrow definition

of necessity.

If we had a healthy, non-pathological society, all would have enough. No one would have to do without any of the physical or social underpinnings of a dignified life.

Our pathologised healthcare system is a good example of what's wrong with US society as a whole: millions go without basic healthcare so that the few (the wealthiest 10% of the population who own 85% of all stock) can enjoy luxurious healthcare. If we de-pathologised it, everyone would get what they need at no additional cost.

It's the same with everything else: eliminate the pathology, and everyone can get what they need. Including television sets (urrrp!) and whisky.

[LSparkle]

3. I am COMPLETELY with you

The Red Cross is trying to get aid into the city, when the people possibly have food at the ready, if they were just allowed to get to it before it spoils (or floats away). These people are literally IN HELL -- and anyone who would stop them from doing WHATEVER they have to do in order to survive is an unfeeling, sorry excuse for a human being.

And, coincidentally, many of the poor people who couldn't afford to drive away and rent a motel room, the ones who were left to this chaos -- WERE PEOPLE OF COLOR. It's just so convenient for these freeper bastards to make them targets. This disgusts me almost beyond words.

[Kerrytravelers]

8. And also Thank you.

Again, more thunderous applause.

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[nyhuskyfan]

4. I go there for the wings. Honest.

Whoops. Read that too fast.

[op6203]

11. LOL

:D

I'm okay with people getting food/medical/diapers/etc. But those taking non-essentials (jewelry, for example) just because nobody's looking... that's different. Those types are no better than common thieves IMO.

OP

[Kerrytravelers]

14. Well said.

Thunderous applause for you.

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[bread_and_roses]

18. when people have been shut-out from the benefits of a social system....

...they- or at least some/maybe many - probably tend not to internalize the mores/standards/orders of that social order.

We in this Country have allowed the poor - especially minorities - in our inner cities to live in near Third World conditions. No jobs. Sub-standard housing. Sub-standard health care. Sub-standard schools. Inadequate Public Transportation to get to/from a job if you are lucky enough to find one. "Welfare" support at maybe half the Federal Poverty level - maybe less than that. No way for most to earn money except dealing, and among African Americans - what is it, 1/4? - the young men and increasing numbers of young women cycling through the Jail/Prison system.

When people have no hope, no chance, they have little reason to abide by the norms of a system that has ignored them for at least since the Reagan era. Not that they were high on the priortity list before, but it's been worse since Reagan.

This is not an "excuse." It does not imply that all those who are looting are doing so simply to eat/drink for duration of the crisis. It does not imply that they are all "good" people in bad circumstances. Of the people I've met who've come out of such circumstances (and I've known and worked with a good few) many are not "good" by any defination of the word. But then, how could they be? We've had at least two generations growing up in these conditions.

It is simply to suggest that - as we all know - social policy has consequences. When a White felon can get a job more readily than an African American with no record, there are social consequences. When the Society does not address the problems created when working class jobs disappear, there are social consequences. We have been indifferent to the plight of poor inner city residents - how is it we then that we are surprised when they are indifferent to "our" social norms?

And...I am happy not to see people on this site condemning anyone in NO "looting" food, diapers, other survival items ...because anyone who would condemn people in their situation for trying to survive is inhuman.

[ultraist]

28. Well said Kenzee13!

Condemning people who have been barred from equal access to opportunity for a little petty theft during a major disaster is very fundie like.

People need to stop and look at the big picture and the causes of poverty, as you have!

[bpilgrim]

33. "social policy has consequences" - build MORE prisons!!!

There is nothing healthy about being well adjusted to a SICK society!
(who said that, again?)

thanks for sharing :toast:

peace

[RageFist]

7. Yes, those poor folks who

also need new stereos, flat screens, etc. for their homes are justified...they NEED them :(

:sarcasm:

[Kerrytravelers]

10. No one is defending them.

Please review the other thread where this has been a topic.

Those who need life sustaining items aren't looting for greed.

Those who are stealing unnecessary items are breaking the law.

If I were in their situation, I may take life sustaining items, but I would repay the storeowners when they return to their stores. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. Poor doesn't equal criminal.

[JimmyJazz]

15. Most of the pictures I saw were of people who were looting grocery

stores, not Best Buy. So take your sarcasm some place else and have some compassion.

[SOS]

109. Some groceries were found, others were looted

[RageFist]

110. Why I would I take my sarcasm elsewhere...

its so fun.

Officials helpless against looters
Associated Press
August 31, 2005
NEW ORLEANS - With law officers and National Guardsmen focused on saving lives, looters around the city spent another day brazenly ransacking stores for food, clothing, appliances - and guns.

<snip>

On New Orleans' Canal Street, dozens of looters ripped open the steel gates on clothing and jewelry stores and grabbed merchandise. In Biloxi, Miss., people picked through casino slot machines for coins and ransacked other businesses. In some cases, the looting was in full view of police and National Guardsmen.

I assume you will get my point.

I wasn't dismissing those with a real need for sustenance, I was belittling those who would take advantage of a shitty situation i.e. the hurricane.

[Misunderestimator]

20. Where do you think they will store those flat screens and stereos?

In their secret warehouses where all that loot will come out unscathed when everything else is in ruins? You think they will be caressing all those electronics while their children starve? Get some perspective buddy. You don't seem to have a clue.

[orpupilofnature57]

25. Could you tell the difference between, caviar and toilet paper?

[Misunderestimator]

26. All I know is that I would grab both and be grateful.

[RageFist]

111. The person I read about...

stealing a computer and a flat screen WAS A COP! you are the one without a clue...maybe instead of assuming these are all good people, do some research of your own, draw conclusions, and if needed, refute my statements with your own evidence...not conjecture. :)

[ultraist]

29. If they had other opportunities available to them...

as others do, perhaps they wouldn't consider lifting a television or other items they likely lost during the hurricane. OR, if they could have afforded insurance, I highly doubt they'd be out there lifting that stuff.

Can you really blame them for seeing a door and walkiing through it? Not often that happens for 80% of those in NO. (80% poverty rate in NO).

Easy for those who have never experienced oppression to sit up on their white horse and judge others, isn't it?

[RageFist]

112. I'm not refuting the fact that these are

extremely poor people, and that poverty and crime have a correlation (I really DO love sociology). While this explains their behavior, i don't think it excuses it. I wonder what the voter turnout rate is among those in poverty (In NO and abroad)... My point here is that stealing from those who can find good paying jobs is no way to the top. The marriage of corporate interests and those in power is disgusting and subversive, but it happens often under the nose of the American Public. Can't expect anything to change until people take real action.

[SmokingJacket]

98. You walk a mile in their shoes

through filthy water, after a lifetime of poverty and a storm in which you were left to die... then judge.

Why should they respect the laws of a society that gives a rat's ass for them?

[MadisonProgressive]

9. Why do you hate America??????????????????

[oasis]

12. "Your garden variety Freeper doesn't see it that way". They will be

avoiding this thread.

[lastknowngood]

16. If you take what is necessary in an emergency they say your

looting. If you use bribes and steal billions your called a good businessman and a Pioneer.

[johnnie]

19. Should homeless people be able to walk into a store and take food?

It would be out of neccesity...no?

[Misunderestimator]

21. Johnnie... I can usually deal with your obtuseness and inability to

see things clearly... this time... you're really pissing me off.

[johnnie]

31. Sorry

I do see things clearly, and have opinions on subjects. I haven't gotten too deep into this whole looting thing, but I think I am allowed to say a few things on it.
I believe that people are defending the looting without the facts. It is one thing to have information and base judgment on facts, but to assume all the looters are starving and they are trying to feed their children seems to be a bit naive to me. It seems that the people defending the looters have no compassion for the people who are getting things stolen from them.
Sorry to piss you off by having a difference of opinion.

[Misunderestimator]

36. And YOU are condemning them without the facts.

And NO... at this point, I have no compassion for people about material possessions.... I do, however, have compassion for people faced with a crisis not known to ANY ONE OF US... and doing whatever is necessary to survive. I do not judge the lot of them based on the biased representation of a few of them.

And this is not merely a difference of opinion. This is a pretty damn critical testament to someone's capacity for compassion.

[bpilgrim]

41. years of practice

while sheltered, finally, pays off

peace

[Misunderestimator]

42. I'm not sure I'm understanding your posts to me....

How should I be taking them?

[bpilgrim]

47. i'm commiserating

by being facetious (poorly)

peace

[Misunderestimator]

48. :)

All good... I thought so... ;) Just wanted to be sure if I should flame you or hug you. :) :hug:

[johnnie]

55. I'm not condemning anyone

I am only saying that their are other people that are being taken advantage of that seem to be out of the picture. Read tx_dem41's post below.
How many people do you think are still alive that haven't taken other's food? The hurricane was about 4 hours old (if even) when the looting started. I have gone a lot longer than that without food and water. Contrary to popular belief, I am not a stupid man and I understand that there are some people that are in desperation during this horrible disaster. I have not condemned anyone, but I refuse to look at what some of these people are doing as a victim-less crime. How about some compassion for the people who barley escaped from the hurricane to come back home and find out that other people felt they needed their stuff more than they did?
I have compassion, but my compassion is for the people who have lost everything at this point. I haven't said much about the stores being looted because to me that is a different issue. My compassion is for the people who are going to have to find out that the hurricane didn't ravage their homes, their neighbors did.

[Misunderestimator]

87. So your compassion is more with those who lose property

or have their homes ravaged, than for those trapped by water down there, starving, trying to escape?

Sorry... I cannot even fathom that kind of mindset.

[Zen Democrat]

66. This is a DISASTER area. People don't have food and water.

If there's some in the convenience store or grocery store and you haven't eaten in two days and the entire city is being evacuated because it's going under, it would seem to be natural survival techniques to grab the food before it's destroyed and eat it.

Larry King just talked to a visitor staying at the Monaco Hotel in the French Quarter. He said there's no electricity, water is dripping on them, there's no food or potable water in the hotel. He said he saw people break into a convenience store across the street, but that he did not disagree with it because people are hungry and sick -- and there's no idea when rescuers will get to them.

This man said that his flight out was canceled Saturday night and he couldn't get a car to drive out. He's abandoned in a disaster area and was sick with 102 degree fever. Looks to be every man for himself at this point.

[johnnie]

69. Yes, this is day two

I don't know how I got in the middle of this. I was saying I thought it was wrong that people were breaking into houses and stealing other people's stuff. This was happening yesterday.
My first post on the looters was about a woman who got word that her house was broken into. I felt bad for her and now I seem to have people who are turning all my words around to make it look like I am an un-compassionate fool who thinks people should die instead of taking bottled water and diapers. :eyes:

[orpupilofnature57]

22. EXACTLY,and anyone that doesn't know the difference, is sheltered!

[Misunderestimator]

27. Anyone who judges people surviving a tragedy like this is sheltered.

[bpilgrim]

35. or a little funny in the head

hard to tell most times

peace

[bpilgrim]

34. Should people be allowed to go Homeless in the RICHEST country ever?

It would be out of neccesity...no?

peace

[orpupilofnature57]

40. Yahoo

[Qibing Zero]

46. Damn straight. nt

[StayOutTheBushes]

102. If they want to be it's OK. I'm a social worker and I have found

that about half of the homeless that I deal with just want to be left alone.

[zalinda]

23. It really doesn't matter at this point

It doesn't matter if they take a loaf of bread or a TV set. EVERY business owner will declare a complete loss on their insurance, whether or not some things could be saved or not. So, a poor person takes a TV to sell later because he can't get a job and his family will need to eat a month from now. I can even understand a middle class person doing this for the same reason. But, I will NEVER understand the people who come from other states to take advantage of people who have had their lives turned upside down, by charging them $$$$$ for a bag of ice.

zalinda

[AllieB]

24. Seeing such heartlessness on a progressive discussion board

is very disappointing. There's no electricity, no potable water, and most of the food is rotting in the tropical heat and humidity. This is about survival. You're completely correct about the lack of empathy. I'm just surprised to see it on DU.

[StayOutTheBushes]

113. Yeah, they aren't even republicians.

[robertpaulsen]

30. "Your garden-variety Freeper doesn't see it that way". What about Rummy?

I'd like to see a reporter ask him what he thinks of the looters. Wonder what his response would be this time? Any different from April 2003?

Naaah.

:sarcasm:

[tx_dem41]

32. I feel no empathy for the "looters" that robbed my friends in their...

hotel room at gunpoint today and stole all of their possessions. I have no empathy for those "looters" that broke into private residences in my old neighborhood today and took all the furniture and appliances (left the food there), and I definitely don't feel empathy for the "looter" today that shot and killed a policeman in cold blood.

There is bad stuff going on down there and its getting worse by the hour. If you condone it with the broadbrush you wield in the OP, perhaps you're the "garden-variety Freeper".

[bpilgrim]

37. surprise

not

peace

[johnnie]

38. I'm sorry to hear about your friends

I didn't hear about the cop. Sometimes I think too many people want to only see what stories they make up in their heads.

[progmom]

43. who is making up stories in their head, johnnie?

THERE IS A DISASTER OF EPIC PROPORTIONS HAPPENING IN NEW ORLEANS. People are dying. People will continue to die for days. These people are trying to survive. Don't give me this stories in their heads bullshit. You have NO IDEA what these people are facing.

[tx_dem41]

56. If you're calling me a liar.....just have the guts to come out and say..

it to me directly. Please, don't hide it behind a response to another poster.

[progmom]

59. no lack of guts here

i don't know you. not talking to you. i was talking to johnnie.

[johnnie]

61. I don't have ANY idea what they are dealing with

It seems that a lot of people here at DU are posting from the streets of New Orleans though. I have been told how wrong I am by a lot of people today, so I am guessing that there are many people with their computers sitting in the French Quarters.
I have been mainly talking about the homeowners getting their stuff ripped off. I really haven't touched on any of the stores being looted.
If it is wrong to have compassion for those people, then I am wrong.

[progmom]

62. i don't need to be in the streets of New Orleans to feel empathy

..and compassion.

[johnnie]

64. Neither do I

But I am guessing my compassion hasn't been "marked for approval" so it seems to be worthless.

[progmom]

67. johnnie.

i give up.
we usually see eye-to-eye.
i don't want to fight with you.
not about this.
i'm overwhelmed and depressed by the hopelessness of it all.

[johnnie]

70. I think we see eye to eye more than you think

I'm really sorry if I have been misinterpreted. I also think that politicizing this disaster at this point is a bit tacky.
We don't have to go on with this. I am as saddened by all of this as anyone. I am slowly learning to keep my thoughts to myself on DU, it's just taking me some time.

[progmom]

tell me you're not telling me that *I* am politicizing this.

[johnnie]

76. No...not you

Not at all. A lot of people have today. Believe me progmom, I wasn't referring to you. :hug:

[progmom]

77. i'm glad i asked.

thanks. :hug:

[Misunderestimator]

88. Who's politicizing anything? I haven't seen anything but discussion

about this... the only political angle is that our National Guard troops are in Iraq instead of here helping the disaster victims as they should be.

I haven't seen any politicization of the topic of looting. Can you provide an example? I'm curious what that would look like.

[tx_dem41]

52. Swamp Rat told me about it first....and then my friends told me about...

it (confirming it) in the last hour.

Thanks for your thoughts. Nice to talk to a fellow human being once in awhile on here. Thanks.

[tx_dem41]

58. The cop was shot in the head when he was trying to stop looting...

I believe on Canal Street. I had heard he had died, but on Google just now it says he is expected to recover. Thank, goodness.

[Misunderestimator]

39. OH PLEASE!!

What a coincidence that YOU, of all people here, would have experienced such firsthand proof.

WHERE DID THEY PUT THE APPLIANCES THEY FUCKING STOLE? THIS IS RIDICULOUS!

[bpilgrim]

44. they floated metal garbage cans around for their stuff, planning ahead

and all those old folks pushing those shopping carts under the overpass got'm filled with gold bricks and are DESTROYING our ECONOMY :argh:


bush'll take care of'm i'm sure...

peace

[Misunderestimator]

45. LOL!

[tx_dem41]

49. Not all parts of town are underwater, but perhaps you misunderestimate...

the news. The New Aurora section of Algiers on the West Bank is quite dry. Extensive tree and roof damage, but no flooding. My wife and I have been on the phone for the past hour with 3 high school friends that related very bad tales about what happened today.

Why were we on the phone? Because we are trying to find my mother-in-law and sister-in-law, the mother of one dear friend, and a couple of friends from high school that live near the levee break.

There are many of us that spent today on the phone and the Internet desparately looking for loved ones and desparately helping loved ones find their loved ones. Its what real people do when they are in a community.

Now, go run along, and get back to your huffing and puffing and politicizing. It wears "well" on you.

[Misunderestimator]

51. And real people don't judge people for taking food from stores

during a disaster such as this. How is this about politicizing? Where the hell did you drag that from?

[tx_dem41]

54. Real people don't stick a gun in a woman's face....

and take her wedding ring...and real people wouldn't even hint at defending that.

[bpilgrim]

74. 'real' people don't blame a whole city for the actions of 1 person

cept neoCONs



peace

[tx_dem41]

80. That's my city and the vast majority of the people of my city....

that many have been trashing for days now. I'm still proud of what it's people have done in the past and will now do in the future. Others want to "cheer on" some thugs and cast aspersions on a great city and its people.

Have fun turning others' misery into your own little greed and power trip.

[bpilgrim]

82. which makes it even worse for you to make such insinuations

and it is Corp USA that is TRASHING that REGION and this COUNTRY by IGNORING GW and infrastructure needs not your BS strawmen.

"Others want to "cheer on" some thugs and cast aspersions on a great city and its people."

more BULLSHIT, no one is doing THAT cept the M$MWs who cheer the neoCONs on for YEARS.

Have fun spinning others' misery into your own little selfish power trip.

:puke:

peace

[Misunderestimator]

84. Real people don't bring up criminals with guns on a thread about looting.

When the discussion is whether taking food and water is wrong. Robbing someone at gunpoint and home invasions are not looting. We may as well talk about other violent crimes here too. What's the point of that?

[johnnie]

85. Sorry Karen, I was going to let this rest

Maybe the reason why you are getting so angry with me is because our definition of looting are two different things.

Here is the definition from Merriam-Webster Online:
Main Entry: 2loot
Function: verb
transitive senses
1 a : to plunder or sack in war b : to rob especially on a large scale and usually by violence or corruption
2 : to seize and carry away by force especially in war
intransitive senses : to engage in robbing or plundering especially in war


I see home invasion as looting. I'm not trying to start anything back up, but I thought maybe that's why you were getting so angry with me. I am not condemning people who are grabbing essentials from businesses. I don't think looting is a good thing, but in the situation down there I can understand it. I haven't said anything other than that this whole time. I was surprised that I got so flamed yesterday by a few of you. I was more surprised that I saw people saying a lot worse than I, and no one commented on their posts.
Anyway, I hope this clears some of it up.

[Misunderestimator]

86. I didn't respond to you Johnnie...

But No.... a home invasion is not at all what we are talking about here. The looting we are talking about is people getting things they need like food and water. SOME people keep trying to equate those actions with those of criminals stealing appliances, and now, outlandishly, criminals pointing guns at peoples' heads in their own homes. No, that's not the kind of "looting" we are talking about.

The definition you put of looting is good though... defines those survivors taking essential survival goods as not being looters at all. No plundering or sacking or taking by force.

So what was your point again? That we agree that survivors taking food and water are not to be condemned? WOW! That took a long time to get there. You got "flamed" yesterday because you seemed to not believe that most of the people taking things were taking things for their survival. Glad you've come around.

[johnnie]

92. I haven't changed my mind

It's just that I have been talking about something else. There are a lot of people and opinions on DU and not all of us are going to discuss things in black and white. You have to be able to leave a bit of headroom for discussion here because of the amount of people.
To be called names because of a difference of opinion is pretty tacky. If I would have been saying "shoot all looters", then I would understand the flames. I was ganged up on a few times because my thoughts were a bit different, not radically, but a bit.
I am starting to feel like this place has become too narrow-minded for my tastes. A slight difference of opinion, or a different understand of an issue does not make me the enemy nor does it make me obtuse. I only ask that I be given the same treatment that I give others here. I don't always agree with what everyone thinks, but I have enough sense to realize that not everyone is me.

[Misunderestimator]

93. You were called names?

And now are you are calling ME narrow-minded? :rofl:

Ok... well, have good one, johnnie. :hi:

[johnnie]

97. Forget it

:banghead:

[Misunderestimator]

99. Don't hurt yourself.

[johnnie]

103. Oh, I'm fine

It's just that there a millions of people in the gulf that are going through a lot of shit, and I'm still answering posts about fucking looting.

[Tomee450]

81. Amen!!

I sure would like to know how the looters transported large screen televisions through all that water. I think lies are being told.

[Bluesplayer]

50. I don't think they were just looters...

[ultraist]

57. tx_dem41: robbing at gunpoint is not looting

That's armed robbery, a violent crime. Looting a store is theft, a non violent crime.

Shooting a police officer is murder, not looting.

Still friends? ;)

[tx_dem41]

63. Still friends....

dear Ultraist! Always! :)

[ultraist]

65. Good!

:loveya:

[zalinda]

68. I could hardly call this looting

this was a robbery, pure and simple. This could have happened whether or not there was a hurricane. Looting really is taking advantage of a situation, rather than a thought out criminal act.

zalinda

[GaYellowDawg]

83. Well, neither do I.

I suppose that painting with a broad brush is bad no matter how you do it. I have zero compassion for whomever did that to your friends. I also don't have a lot of compassion for those breaking into jewelry stores. I think that someone who uses this disaster as an excuse to commit violent crimes deserves the full prosecution of the law. Likewise with the jewelry thing.

I don't think that someone should get nailed for getting bottled water. I have a lot of compassion for people breaking into places to get food, first aid supplies, and potable water.

I guess what I'm saying is that looting isn't a black/white issue like neocons would make it.

[Bluesplayer]

53. does looting include profiteering?

Which is worse, someone who loots a store of $100 of merchandise, or a store owner who raises all his prices and loots from all his customers, who may have nowhere else to go?

How about the oil companies? I'm guessing that gas prices will go up at least 25 cents/gallon in the next few days, all because of the hurricane, even though it will probably be weeks before shortages in crude oil actually attributable to the storm show up in the refineries. Won't they be looting the entire country?

If someone is looting, arrest him and charge him. Cut him some slack if he stole food for his family, but none if he took a laptop.

Similarly, if a business takes advantage of this situation, apply the tougher looting penalties to them also.

[northzax]

107. you are misreading the situation and have only partial knowledge

of what the issues are, I'm afraid. First off, Louisiana as anti-gouging laws, and a task force, set up Sunday morning to enforce them. It has been announced, as it was in advance this time, that violation of the gouging laws leads to a six month jail term, no warnings will be issued. The State is fulfilling it's responsibility here.

Global supplies of crude oil are currently irrelevant to the US situation. There is about a week's backlog of refined petroleum in the system, a week's worth of gas to be sold. No matter how much crude oil there is right now, crude is basically worthless without refining, and 60% of our refining capacity is offline, either due to damage or to inability to get more crude oil. CITGO, for instance, has asked the government for a loan of oil from the SPR, even though the refinery is probably operational, the terminal is gone. 60% of the foreign crude that enters the US does so through the port of New Orleans. New Orleans is the 4th largest port in the world, with a greater capacity than New York and Los Angeles combined the loss of that is devastating. Remember the shortages when the docks in LA went on strike a couple of years ago, the ones that thankfully never materialized? wait until New Orleans is offline for a couple of weeks, it's going to be ugly.

our refining capacity is so localised in the Delta area that we are facing some real shortages, as well as potential chemical shortages. Chlorine, plastics, other industrial chemicals, all come from Toxic Alley, which is offline right now.

Think of it like this. Detroit, Pontiac and Flint, Michigan are all hit by a storm and go offline for 3 months, even though we make cars in other places, that would seriously limit the number of cars being produced, since 50% are still made there.

Frankly, the reason looting is a problem is not the cash value of anything, which, as people have pointed out is bascially nothing, but the serious breakdown in social order and chaos that erupts. It makes the jobs of the National Guard, Coast Guard (who are doing a fabulous job) and the Police even harder and more dangerous. They will be there, enforcing order, or at least peace, since even looters of plasma TV's deserve protection from violence, but everyone down there is someone not off helping a law obeying citizen get to safety. Looters, and the resulting violence that always comes from property disputes, (especially stolen property) attract more than their fair share of scarce resources in a time of need. It's not safe on the streets with water all around, (same with the people going into the beached casino boats) and if you get into danger, someone will risk their life to save you, maybe taking attention away from someone else who needs assistance.

There may be only 1,000 people engaged in looting (and yes, folks, looting, by very definition, is the taking of spoils after a war or natural disaster) and those people are taking up a disproportionate amount of law enforcement and other resources, making it harder for other people to survive. You cannot let the entire city turn into a free for all, based on the actions of a small minority, it's not how society works, although it kinda proves William Golding's point, don't it?

[SofaKingLiberal]

60. x

[cloud75]

71. Senator said "people need to use their best judgement" if they are looting

for food and water...she basically said she understands. Her name is Mary Landrieu.

[donheld]

72. It all seems pointless now

Both the looting and the whining about it. The looters will probably lose what they took. The stores couldn't sell it anymore. The police have better things to do. I say just let it go now.

[cloud75]

73. isn't that what they did when iraqis looted. n/t

[growlypants]

75. Yes, but they ALSO looted the JEWELRY stores. Last time I checked,

a diamond tennis bracelet was neither edible nor could it be used as a flotation device. Looting of food stuff is totally different from looting jewelry stores

[progmom]

78. and no one will argue with that point

:shrug:

[mondo joe]

100. Unfortunately there HAS been some arguing of that point.

It's not most of it, but it's happened.

I think there's much more common ground on the "looters" issue than it looks like based on just the flame wars.

I think MOST of us don't object to taking necesary food or medicine.

I think MOST of us do object to taking jewelry or electronics.

[MidnightWind]

79. So the part where they shot the police officer in the head?

Is that "defensible?" Is that okay?

http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_08.html#075246

Also, scroll up on this same page and read first-hand accounts of what was being looted, it's more than just food. I know these people are desperate-I totally get that. This is the worse thing I've ever seen to be real honest with you. But at some point, and I'd say that point was shooting a police officer in the head, that looting is no longer defensible no matter what it was you were looting or why you were doing it.

[underpants]

90. Mayor of NO (Nagin) comments on it here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4523299

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JimmyJazz]

96. Now there's some progressive/liberal thinking! Why didn't I think of that

:sarcasm: I think you may have gotten up on the wrong side of bed this morning.

[theboss]

95. Then why grab a plasma tv?

Which is also happening.

[underpants]

101. Who cares? Insurance ocovers all of it anyway

The store woners (whether it is mom and pop or Walmart) are covered for the loss. For the big retailers they would probably sell it off to wholesalers anyway. Those items being stolen don't acutally exist.

[theboss]

105. It's a write-off, Jerry

Do you even know what a write-off is?
No, but they do.

[underpants]

106. LOL

My wife and I were talking about this this morning, she has lots of experience in accounting and auditing for retail.

it is in fact a write off...in a way.

[mondo joe]

108. Ha! That was on just last night. n/t