When the social contract is broken by the powers that be, "looting"

[ConsAreLiars]

is an effect. It is the kind of breakdown in social order that makes arguments about moral absolutes a bit of an irrelevancy. This is what happens when the misery people experience is intensified. This is what happens when a nation's government apparatus makes serving the drive for corporate profits its guiding principle.

With a government designed and intended to serve the common good, the conditions that give rise to such "lawlessness" would not exist, or at least be rare. But when when the laws and regulations and resources of the state no longer serve the people, the people will not serve or respect the established order.

Unless new forms of organization emerge that become capable of replacing the corrupt state and economic system with alternatives that serve our common self-interest, or maybe those in power decide to give back what they have stolen on behalf of the corporatist machinery, disorder and the massive crimes against all of humanity at the top will be mirrored in a smaller way at the bottom.

It's just the way things work in the here and now.

[The Traveler]

1. You are exactly right

Civilization has fallen down in these places. Abstract concepts like property rights no longer apply. That is just the way things go.

Scary, to realize how little seperates us from chaos.

[NEOBuckeye]

2. Not much at all, really. n/t

[Guaranteed]

3. You're exactly dead-on right.

But people, particularly those in a situation like this, have to re-organize- or at least act as IF they're part of organization.

They need to do what they WOULD do if there was some kind of organization that was working for their betterment. And if there isn't one, they need to create one.

We can't have people fighting each other and running rampant. Nothing is going to get solved if that happens.

[Guaranteed]

4. And rec'd. nt

[ConsAreLiars]

17. Most people do act honorably, even under duress.

But when the conditions punish the honorable and reward the selfish act, moralizing about the "shoulds" is wasted effort. We need community organizations that could step in and organize self-help efforts, even if this involved confiscating the supplies still available in stores, until the larger community is able to provide relief. When "the larger community" in the form of the national government is corrupt and indifferent to suffering, waiting patiently for real help to appear may seem a bit delusional.

[Tace]

5. It's Quite Simply A Spiritual Blight

Addressing the physical problems is like treating the symptoms of a sick patient, with no concern for the causes.

[chalky]

6. Watched a clip on CNN decrying the looting. Know what they were taking?

Diapers. Bags of potato chips. Cans of soup. Rolls of toilet paper. The most frivolous thing I saw a "looter" with was a box of Snickers.

Not an X-box or Ipod in the bunch.

Sure, there are "profiteers" in every bunch, but for the most part, people don't give a DAMN about bling right now. They just want the basics and food to survive.

[ConsAreLiars]

9. Under duress, people will grasp at anything.

It really doesn't matter if it's Tostitos or TV's. Food and such would be smarter, but when justice and a society devoted to serving the common good are absent, anything that offers a some chance for some advantage is up for grabs.

[chalky]

12. I believe, right now, if given a choice of Tostitos or a TV, these

people would choose the Tostitos. They have NOTHING. No home to go to, which means NO FRIDGE and NO PANTRY.

[dweller]

7. or in other words

Crash on the levee, mama,
Water's gonna overflow,
Swamp's gonna rise,
No boat's gonna row.
Now, you can train on down
To Williams Point,
You can bust your feet,
You can rock this joint.
But oh mama, ain't you gonna miss your best friend
now?
You're gonna have to find yourself
Another best friend, somehow.

Now, don't you try an' move me,
You're just gonna lose.
There's a crash on the levee
And, mama, you've been refused.
Well, it's sugar for sugar
And salt for salt,
If you go down in the flood,
It's gonna be your own fault.
Oh mama, ain't you gonna miss your best friend now?
You're gonna have to find yourself
Another best friend, somehow.

Well, that high tide's risin',
Mama, don't you let me down.
Pack up your suitcase,
Mama, don't you make a sound.
Now, it's king for king,
Queen for queen,
It's gonna be the meanest flood
That anybody's seen.
Oh mama, ain't you gonna miss your best friend now?
Yes, you're gonna have to find yourself
Another best friend, somehow.

Down in the Flood
Bob Dylan
http://bobdylan.com/songs/flood.html


dp

[wli]

8. Proof positive: the Republican Party is a terrorist organization. n/t

[Qibing Zero]

10. Glad I caught this post,

it's exactly what I've been trying to say! Much love.

[ConsAreLiars]

13. Thanks - sometimes folks get caught up

in the corporate media's spin cycle and end up debating "looting" as a moral issue instead of seeing what is happening to us all as the corporatists loot and plunder and drive the least secure of us into acts of desperation.

[Qibing Zero]

15. Yep yep

It's sometimes so easy to condemn the individuals 'breaking the law' and ignore the real problems behind it all.

[natrat]

33. indeed the looting discussion is for the morans

the real looting is many many many times more expansive

[sundog]

11. nice one

nominated

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

14. well said

[Desertrose]

16. Yes...exactly what I was trying to say. Great post.

"But when when the laws and regulations and resources of the state no longer serve the people, the people will not serve or respect the established order. "

[ConsAreLiars]

20. You identified the essential part of what I was trying to say.

What some now see simply as "illegal" acts are a harbinger of the kind of society those now in power are creating. People simply grabbing whatever is left unguarded is not a revolutionary act. It is simply pragmatism in a failed society. And that is what we are seeing.

[WHAT]

18. consent of the governed doesn't apply...

when you have rigged elections and corrupt government.

Still, I think there are people co-operating and co-ordinating their efforts for their mutual well being...it's the sensible thing for humans to do.

[aaronbees]

19. Thank you...

for expressing much better than I could what I've been thinking all night as the TV flung a barrage of looting imagery.

[MercutioATC]

21. At that point, it comes down to personal responsibility. Some don't have

any.

As discussed ad nauseum before, looting food and water or other basic survival supplies is understandable. Looting electronics and jewelry is not.

Some people will use any excuse to enrich themselves at the expense of others.

[shugah]

22. "the social contract is broken"

thanks for a great post! i've been searching for those exact words!

the social contract has indeed been broken.

[burythehatchet]

23. the solution is called socialism.

[SlipperySlope]

24. The "social contract" is called the constitution.

If we want a new contract, we need to amend the constitution.

[Eloriel]

30. No, this is different from the Constitution. Social Security, for example

isn't in the Constitution, but it IS party of what's referred to as "the social contract." But much of the social contract isn't even laws, isn't even written down anywhere.

[progmom]

25. Very well said. Thank you.

[lonestarnot]

26. Well whatever they took is going to be under water with them if they

don't get something in motion to evacuate NO NOW!

[centristo]

27. unless you are white

because then you are not looting, you are "finding".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4515079

[mongo]

28. Yeah, right

It's the state's fault people were looting jewelry and clothes yesterday.

Jeesh.

[TahitiNut]

31. It's called "democracy" -- they're voting (in a way)

"Law and order" cannot be maintained by force in a free society. It requires trust and a sense of vested interest. The more people who feel alienated, either econmically or politically, then the more the fabric of trust and cooperation (quid pro quo) breaks down.

The "haves and have-mores" have been on a binge of narrow-interest legislation for years and years, from carving paths through equity regulation to permit rape and pillage a la Enron to slaps on the wrist for those who steal billions while someone caught with a dime bag goes away for life. There's a limit. That limit is reached instantaneously when a disaster like Katrina doesn't see a rapid and comprehensive response.

[Qibing Zero]

32. Very nice response, agreed 100%. nt

[TahitiNut]

34. Thank you, sir. Welcome to DU.

:hi:

[ConsAreLiars]

35. Not what I said. You know better.

When an intact society faces adversity the common interest becomes paramount. When a broken society, like this one, faces adversity, it breaks completely. This is just a prelude unless we build community from the bottom.

[Qibing Zero]

29. Kicking this

Considering people are still posting about looting without realizing the real problem behind it all.