The downfall of Gay Americans will be because of Gay Americans

[Democrats unite]

I am of the firm opinion that Gay American's must show a united front
against all bigotry & must challenge it whenever confronted with it. I am sad to say I don't see this. Canada is starting to look better all the time.

[Doug Decker]

1. Can you please elaborate...

What does "downfall" mean and what do you recommend? Are you saying we should be against all bigotry? Because I would agree whole-heartedly with you on that.

[Democrats unite]

3. Yes all bigotry

Sorry, if I sound like i'm ranting, but I am. How Can a Gay person be against Gay marriage? How can a Gay person be against Gay teenagers in the Boy Scout's? How can a Gay person be against any minority group? Well there are, and it makes me sick to my stomach that they think this is ok.

If we do not speak as one voice with the current views and the rights attack against us, I shudder to think of the consequences.

[Doug Decker]

9. I'm not sure who you are taking about...

The people I know, gay and straight, are trying to combat the racism and unfairness in our society.

Could we all do more? Yes, and we can and will. But I'm not sure that you can blame those attitudes on just gays.

Although I do agree with your point, and with the words coming from Dean and Clark, we must all do everything in our power to enfranchise all people in our society.

Are you speaking to a specific event that caused you to become upset? If so, please believe me, DU is a tolerant and diverse group and has always been supportive of the struggle.

Don't give up hope. We CAN make a better future for ourselves and future generations.

Peace.

[Devlzown]

11. Are you talking about anyone in particular?

It's a little unrealistic to think that all gay people will fall in line behind a particular cause. Gay people come from all sorts of different backgrounds and most, of course, are raised by straight people. There are Log Cabin Republicans, drag queens, military officers, black lesbian truckers, etc. While I'm sure that most of the above would be against bigotry, as would society as a whole, each person probably has his/her own idea what bigotry is. Therein lies the rub.

[Dr Fate]

2. Well, we do have the most "pro-gay" group of candidates in history

And one of them may very well win!

Also- look at the popularity of gays in the media- sure some of them are sterotypes- but it's positive exposure just the same...

I'm not gay, but I detect more tolerance and even outright acceptance of gays than ever before...

[Democrats unite]

4. I am sorry this was not a rant about heterosexulas...

It is a rant about some fellow Gay people.

[Dr Fate]

6. Was my post about Heterosexuals?

Sorry- I thought this was General Discussion, and that we were discussing "gay issues" in a political context...

[Democrats unite]

7. Excuse me but there are Gay people here.

And I will post where ever I please. General discussion means general discussion.

[Dr Fate]

8. Right- I want you too...

...I edited my response because I read your post wrong- I thought you were suggesting that Hetro-DEMS were not invited to discuss this issue- I'm now sure that I read your post wrong- peace.

[Andy_Stephenson]

5. You must not live in Central Texas

Being Gay there can get you killed. Thank God I live in Seattle. Otherwise my big mouth would get me in trouble. I know...it did in the past. But I have always been out. No one could ever force me into the closet. Remember Gay Bashers...Gays bash back.

[Liberal Veteran]

10. I agree, but......

(there is always a but) :)

It really doesn't help matters much when so-called "enlightened" gays go totally non-conformist and basically look down on all tradition.

A good example of this is would be in the argument of marriage. We have certain gay people who have decided that they have a more evolved sensibility and argue that gay people shouldn't adopt traditional heterosexual institutions. I take the attitude that other than the gender of the person we are attracted to, gays and straights are pretty much exactly the same. Gay people tend to do a few more rounds of self-examination and looking at societal roles and tend to have a point of view that many people lack (even differing from most minorities because when push comes to shove, most of us have downplayed or closeted our sexual orientation for safety, comfort or convenience). In the final analysis however, there is a schism with the community between those who feel gay people should find a way to assimilate into the greater society and adopt or adapt societal traditions to our orientation and those who feel we should shake off the shackles of tradition and forge some bold new path and place for ourselves in society.

In case you haven't guessed, I subscribe to the assimilation point of view.

[Democrats unite]

13. All that assimilation & $1.50 will get you

is a cup of coffee.

[Liberal Veteran]

15. Perhaps....

On the other hand, non-assimilation and looking down our noses at our society and tradition only tends to reinforce a notion that we are totally alien to the society we were raised in and that reinforces some myths about homosexuality that will make getting the overall job of removing societal prejudice against us that much more difficult, one of those myths being that we want some form of special treatment.

All I want is equality. Not something new. If we need something new and different, those need to evolve out of amalgam that will exist AFTER we have taken the baby steps and gotten equal treatment under the law for our relationships that heterosexuals currently enjoy.

That is the point I am trying to make. Assimilation to me means being accepted as just another facet of human sexuality without having to hide or live in fear of legal discrimination and having access to the same institutions that already exist (Mainly legal recognition of relationships). Some people take assimilation as a bad word as though we should not be a part of the society (indeed, the families) from which we came.

[foreigncorrespondent]

12. DemsUNite, I agree with you.

The problem is that with in the gay community we are split into our groups of those wanting marriage rights vs those who want civil unions and not marriage. Those who want immigration rights, those who want adoption rights, those who prefer to remain in the closet, and the list could go on.

Sappho and I have talked about this very issue a lot, and the fact is, that if we would all merge into one camp and begin working together we would achieve so much more.

But how do we go about it? Sappho and I have thought so long and hard on it, and just can't find the miracle that will do it.

Quite frankly I would love marriage rights, but I also see that it isn't going to happen for a long time, so I stick to the smaller issues at hand, and my biggest is of course immigration, so Sappho and I can finally begin our lives together, and not have to worry about the INS kicking me out of the USA again.

The thing in the gay community which pisses me off the most is those who remain in the closet. They are the ones giving all these assholes permission to treat us like shit. If everyone would just come out including the big names stars like Jodie Foster and Ben Affleck then our voices would become louder and stronger. And we would have a better account of statistics that we could use.

I mention the statistics because during Sappho's trip here to Australia we learned that 17% of Australia are gay (more if all the closeted gays would come out), if you add that to the actual numbers of people here in Australia, then that is a lot of queers, and Howard should really begin listening to our needs. The same could be done in the USA if we had better statistics.

[Democrats unite]

14. I used to subscribe to the school of thought

Take it slow, But I'm not getting any younger, Why should I not demand equal treatment like everyone else? Don't get me wrong there is a very large part of the Gay Community united in one front, but how could any Gay person not want to see the advancement of all Gay people? That is what I don't understand.

[foreigncorrespondent]

16. Again I agree with you.

We are all people. We all have feelings. We all fall in love. We all eat, sleep and shit the same way. And not one person in this world should be treated any differently than the other (except maybe for the Bushies and their cabal. ;-))

It still pains me that we are forced to settle for anything less than what we are worth (we are all worth equality under the eyes of the law and God), and my settling with immigration rights is purely selfish on my part.

After being with Sappho for three and half years now and living apart more than together, well Sappho and I can't handle any more. It is rough (I can't find the words to explain just how painful it is) every time one of us has to fly back half way across the world, because we never know when we will see each other again. At least with immigration rights we would be together in the USA, where Sappho needs to remain for now.

Immigration rights are a lot easier to get than the bigger picture, although if I could I would fight for the whole enchilada because that is something I truly want. I want for Sappho's and my marriage to be accepted by both our countries, but I know that is going to take a totally united front with in the gay community to win those rights. Until such time as the gay community is totally united, then I can't help because I need to think about immigration as my number one priority.

Sorry my response is dragged out and all over the place, but I am still having a hard time concentrating properly since I had to put Sappho on a plane again, just this past Tuesday.

[Democrats unite]

17. I wish you all the best & I hope things work out for

the two of you.

[foreigncorrespondent]

18. Thank you.

I am sorry I couldn't be of more help for you. I understand where you at, because I have been there myself.

If there was a way of uniting the gay community to achieve the ultimate, then believe me, I will be there right with you. :)

FC

[Liberal Veteran]

20. Look at it from this perspective....

The war (and it is a war) is not going be won in some single climatic battle. It will be a series of victories and losses. There will be victories on one front, while defeat on another.

Your own situation underscores why. You are VERY concerned with immigration rights. That's because it has the most immediate impact on your life. Mine is spousal rights. It has the most immediate impact on mine. We stand together, but our focus is not going to be the same.

There are far too many issues and each one is a different front in the war. They all require some amount of attention. I have no doubt we are on the path to equality, but we have to be realistic. We have to choose our battles wisely and not let ourselves get discouraged when we lose a few.

I think we all look forward to the day these battles are behind us, but I am hard pressed to think of any minority that has completely stood together focusing on a single aspect of equality at a time. One aspect always seems to be the issue of the day, but each of the fields of battle are still just as important because they are planting the seeds to tomorrows victories. Look at the struggles for women's equality in our society as an example. While some women were fighting for suffrage, others were fighting to for access to higher education and equality in the workplace.

Keep your chin up and know that your victory is coming and that you will have played a part in it when it's time has arrived.

[foreigncorrespondent]

22. LV I agree with you as well.

My chin isn't down. I am proud of the woman I am, the person I have become, and the woman I fell in love with.

Yes my main concern right now is immigration rights, while I don't have those rights, I can't stand side by side with my American brothers and sisters to fight all the other issues. Sappho can, but I can't.

Of course once Sappho and I have achieved immigration equality our sites will be focussed more on spousal rights, and the right to marriage in both our countries. But until that time, it is hard for us to remain focussed on anything.

You truly are a very wise person LV. I have a lot of respect for you. :)

[Rowdyboy]

19. Lets make a simple comparison...

Many gays appreciate the work that the activist group "ACT UP" does.

Many gays finds the actions of "ACT UP" disgusting and demeaning.
Who's wrong? How do gays think? We, just like all citizens, have different opinions. Sorry, but just because you are "of the firm opinion that Gay American's must show a united front" means nothing to me.

I want equal treatment under the law as to inheritances, medical decisions, adoption, and custody. Civil unions should be 100% legal. Sad to say, not all gays would agree with me on even these basics.

I know gay teenagers and gay men in their 80's. Thieves and teachers, whores and warehouse workers. There is no real "Gay America". We have common interests but we are just as diverse as America.

I wish we could do what you suggest but 32 years of experience tells me its not likely...

:toast: I'm just glad someone is still optimistic :toast:

[scottxyz]

21. Not much of a topic header

Could you be more specific. And how do you know that things are going to be better in Canada - just because they passed that marriage law?

But I understand you being upset if you think the US government is out of control. And there are such things as "homophobic homosexuals" - is that what you're talking about?