Looks like I am going to need my flame retardant suit today.

[William769]

I cannot believe some of the excuses I am hearing for looters.

[SlipperySlope]

1. I'm with you

But we are against the crowd.

There are plenty of people here who want to say the looters are justified in whatever they take, and that this is there chance to strike back at "the man".

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

2. Good go get it and worry about saving lives instead of fucking things

[uppityperson]

5. exactly. lives are important, focus on that, triaging it is called

it is difficult and cannot be sustained for long, but save the lives you can, and worry about the stuff later. Use what resources there are to save people's lives NOW.

[ret5hd]

7. Some get off on shootin' people...

some get off on helpin' people.

Who are we to judge how each gets his jollies? :sarcasm:

(But then, there's also those that get off on cantankerous ramblings, just dropping in long enough to stir already agitated waters, all while laughing thru their teeth at the fools that pay attention to them)

[Lindacooks]

13. With hundreds, maybe thousands, dead and thousands more

in dire straits, being poisoned by the toxic flood water, looting is just at the bottom of my list of things to worry about. Things are not as important as people - and at any rate, the way things are going, those 'things' would have been rendered useless by the flood waters if they weren't stolen.

[KittyWampus]

25. it's about the abandonment of order. next step is violence. will you excus

excuse it when men start taking rage out on women?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

28. HOW ABOUT WE GET THE GODDAMN FUCKING MEN AND WOMEN

OUT OF THERE INSTEAD OF HARPING ON AERIAL PHOTOS OF LOOTERS???

[KittyWampus]

43. That's Stating The Obvious. As Is Commenting On HumanBehavior.

how we act in disasters.

some of us are guided by our higher selves.

some fo us succumb to reptilian behavior.

Think Lord of the Flies.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

57. I hope you never are forced to demonstrate how much bigger than

everyone else your spirit is

[Matariki]

30. oh yeah, they're BLACK men

so they MUST be roving "rape gangs". I can't believe what some of you people are saying here.

[KittyWampus]

36. maybe you haven't heard about guns being taken & gunfire. And I didn't

say a damn word about "black" or specifically rape.

you need to be honest about HUMAN behavior.

Go watch Lord of the Flies or, better yet, read the book.

[Matariki]

50. frankly

i think you are barely conscious of the reason you are obsessing this point of looting and "roving gangs".

[PunkPop]

52. What??

What the hell are you talking about?

Save the philosophical rambling for another day ok Plato? We've got a catastrophic natural disaster to deal with and lives to save first.

[TahitiNut]

32. Liberals focus on people; conservatives obsess about property.

Almost nothing more need be said. :evilgrin:

[AlCzervik]

3. you have a kid, kids needs water and food.

a 27 inch color tv they don't need.

[RaleighNCDUer]

Unless, having lost everything you own, you can sell the TV to

buy food and water.

The value of items lost to looters is insignificant to what has been lost to the storm. The looters are of no consequence.

Why are you obsessing about a few criminals?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. Do You Think Folks Are Making That Calculus?

I know you don't because you're too smart....

[uppityperson]

10. you are faced with saving lives or stopping looters-resources are limited

save lives. There are not enough resources right now to worry about the looters. I am not saying looting is ok, but there are lives to be saved right now and that needs to be happened first. If looters need to be ignored to save a life, so be it. If I had a choice of getting someone to safety or stopping someone with a 27 inch color tv, I'd get someone to safety.

[AlCzervik]

14. me too and if i saw someone with a kid looting a store for water and food

i'd hold their kid until they were done getting what they needed.

[uppityperson]

21. If I saw someone looting a store for a tv, I'd go help elsewhere

I'd be busy elsewhere and just ignore it. There will be time for dealing with them later. Now is not it.

[Suich]

11. Maybe a TV can be traded for food and water. eom

[Daphne08]

4. Some of these people are either very young or they are

very naive.

I'm wondering where the DU that I joined has gone!

[Dr Fate]

6. Here is an AWESOME link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4508159

[AValdoux]

8. Maybe its not about justifying looting

but why isn't there a larger authority presence (National Guard) in the areas being looted? The powers that be have had to ration their forces so looting isn't their highest priority. Human nature can be ugly. I think its disgusting what's going on. I'm angrier at the lack of resources to stop it. How would we feel if civilians decided to fight back, do you want someone gunned down over a pair of nikes? In Iraq, it wasn't the looting that was the problem but the lack of control over the situation.


AValdoux

[Terran]

9. CNN reported extensively on looting this morning

and all I saw were lots of people with armloads of disposable diapers, toilet paper, and food. Oh, and one shopping cart full of cans. I saw no big screen tv's or DVD players.

I can't believe I just posted in a looting thread--I told myself I would stay out of these. But the lack of compassion is pretty hard to ignore.

[The empressof all]

12. Continuing discussion of the looting by the MSM

It serves one purpose: It demonizes and as a result de-humanizes the victims of this tragedy. The vast majority of the human tragedy enfolding in this area has nothing to do with looting, or criminal behavior on any one indivduals actions.

[seaglass]

24. I think they're covering every facet of this tragedy and how

it impacts a variety of humans.

Looting is part of it.

[etherealtruth]

15. An organic chemistry prof. changed my mind about this ...

He was a little guy from Europe... He was a child during WWII. He was a darling, dignified, law abiding old man that held himself as an example of whom a looter is. He carefully described how desperation, fear, devastation , tragedy ... and group think led very upstanding people to do things they would not normally do.

It led me to be a lot less judgmental about people who do this ...

I don't know who the looters are ... I don't even know what the heck they will be able to do with the stuff they looted ...

[pointblank]

16. I said it before and was flamed...

and I'll say it again. You cannot let looting run rampant as it leads to other more detrimental crimes...looting unchecked empowers those who may be criminally minded to try and get away with other crimes...and away it escalates. Ask any law enforcement or sociolgy expert.

I will say however, that I have no issue with people in need 'commanderring' food and water from abandoned stores...but it can't go totally unchecked or there will be anarchy, which I am starting to think some kooks here wouldn't mind seeing.



ed for spelling

[William769]

22. Thats my point

Seems like all the gun stores were looted. I'm sure people needed these for food & water.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. Xactly....

If you think someone who felt emboldened enough to steal some guns from a pawn shop isn't going to feel emboldened enough to grab a piece of ass without asking like in war zones is extremely naive....

But it won't be anybody here's mom ,wife sister, or girlfriend....

[Matariki]

45. i'm repeating myself

this is part of the unconscious american fantasy/fear. Black men not held in check will rape 'our' mothers, sisters, girlfriends. Think about what you're saying and why you really think this way. Please.

[pointblank]

53. Why the hell have you made it a black-white issue????

I have seen pics of white looters...Although they may have only 'found' the items they were carrying :o :sarcasm:


In all seriousness, this has nothing to do with race...you are making it that way. I am not.


edited to add: I can see why you may be thinking racially here, as most of the photos we are shown are blacks unfortunately...but I would say the same thing if this were happening in a predominately white area...its all the same. People are people.... (**so why should it be, that you and I should get along so awfully?**):rofl:

[Matariki]

61. i disagree

i think it has everything to do with race. i don't think people would even have brought up the word "looting" if it was a white majority taking food and water from stores. I think terms repeated here and in the media such as "roving gangs" and "rape gangs" are very telling.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

64. You Need To Check Yourself Before You Wreck Yourself

In war zones where the only law is power rapists come in all hues....

[uppityperson]

29. Triaging is hard, save who can be saved and ignore the rest for now

You need to save those who can be saved, let those die who will die anyway. Same with looters. If there were enough resources to stop them, they should be stopped. When there are enough resources to get past the immediate emergency, they need to be stopped. For now, survival is the focus and ignoring all the rest. Not oking looting, but triaging.

[Daphne08]

34. You are exactly right, but you cannot tell that to

some of these people.

In this situation in NO, there is a world of difference between taking food and water to sustain oneself and one's family AND taking loads of clothing, shoes, watches, guns, etc.

If people can't see the difference, then I truly feel for them. I don't know what the rationale for defending lawlessness is... and frankly, I've given up trying.

[K-W]

56. So we have a 'gateway crime' theory.

those who may be criminally minded

Criminally minded... are you serious?

Ask any law enforcement or sociolgy expert.

From the middle ages maybe.

but it can't go totally unchecked or there will be anarchy, which I am starting to think some kooks here wouldn't mind seeing.


Looting doesnt cause chaos, chaos causes looting. And the chaos is caused by flooding, not by people taking bread.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

71. My Background Is In The Social Sciences..

It has nothing to do with gateway theories and everything to do with what some folks will do in the absence of a strong sovereign....


Thomas Hobbes put this words in the seventeenth century when he said in the absence of a strong sovereign "life is nasty, brutish, and short."


There are bad people capable of the most heinous acts if they know they can get away with it...

[ret5hd]

18. How do you feel about THIS then, mr all are equal before the law Will...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4527934&mesg_id=4527934

[William769]

23. Looting is looting

Doesn't matter to me the color of the skin.

[undergroundpanther]

19. Guess you are not poor enough

To have sympathy for trapped people in a disaster who have lost everything. You do a good corporate suck up, that ol' Products over people rule..it's the 'Murican way right? God save the corporations junk from people.For the rich Ceo might suffer a loss of profit.

[William769]

27. Stupidity seems to abound here.

Small business are also being looted. :eyes:

[undergroundpanther]

38. The

Small businesses made thier money marking goods up for a profit just like big business do. Smallness does not exempt them from the profit driven motives that make big business the way it is.Small business has insurance like big business..and also Most of the businesses in general are ruined by flooding. Food is food. And in a situation like that HOARDING food from desperate people who are not sure they will HAVE a way to get food EAT in two weeks, is wrong.

[ret5hd]

40. i think you may be right...maybe there's a place more suitable for you.

just sayin'

[DancingBear]

20. CNN runs THE SAME looting clip over and over

Three black kids, then a black girl in a pink shirt.

Again. And again. And again.

Why, pretty soon, if you're not careful, you'd think that looting was a bigger problem than say, oh, an entire city on the verge of destruction?

And, you MIGHT think the whole thing could be defined in shades of black and white, good and evil.

Nah, that's not deliberate. Nope. No way.

[leftofthedial]

26. yeah. any black woman running down the street with a package of diapers

should be shot on sight. I think the bushturd should activate a few special ops units tjust to shoot the looters

[DemocratSinceBirth]

48. That's A Strawman

I'm concerned about all the missing guns....

[malta blue]

33. Flame me too but haven't we had enough of this

discussion. People are dying. People are dead. Come on, get over the looting!

[William769]

37. Did you ever stop to think that people are dying because

of looting? there been alot of looting of gun stores.

[sniffa]

47. did you ever stop to think for a moment

that if it rained donuts NO wouLd be saved.

[malta blue]

59. people are dying because they are trapped and the water

has not stopped rising (although it may be starting to). People are desperate. I can tell you this. Do you have kids? Wouldn't you do everything in your power, including "looting" to try to give them a fucking drink of water? What a steaming pile of crap!

[William769]

62. Since when did you need designer clothes

& sneakers to get a drink of water?

[malta blue]

65. if designer clothes are all that is available and my kid's clothes

are soaked in toxic goo, then sure enough, I'll take it. Enough with this judging of people. Why don't you go fucking police them if you are so concerned!

[William769]

67. Probably the same reason you don't go to give them a drink of water.

[malta blue]

68. I've done all I can, have you? I have donated money,

supplies, and if I weren't a single parent, I would already be in my car.


And if you have, then good. But I am so tired of DUer's being so judgemental.

[William769]

70. Talk about a double edge sword.

"DUer's being so judgemental".

[sniffa]

42. NO WE CAN'T!!!!

we must continue to focus on the scum who wiLLingLy stayed behind in NO so they couLd Loot tvs. no sympathy. in fact, get that donation thread down from up top - it's making DU Look bad.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Beaverhausen]

39. Here Here. Very well said

The lack of compassion among some DUers is really unbelievable.

[William769]

41. Stop making excuses for criminals.

They just hinder the workers trying to help people. Thnk about that.

[undergroundpanther]

51. Greed rules some peoples hearts

That is why they WAnt to protect Business over people. To me their greedy excuses for profit are what make poverty here to stay.Un compassionate selfish"self made" business people who are scared to share. That mentality is the same mentality in BUsh,Because it's a "small business owner" does not mean it isn't there if he feels like he might have to give or lose something. All winners are alike they cannot stand losing rank and stuff even in a disaster hierarchy and their greed based perception of order the zero sum game rules them. To me profit is a PROBLEM. It isn't about human rights it's about protecting the ambitious and their"gains" over life itself.The Zero Sum game is all some people define themselves with.To upset the rules means they fear losing their place in the social hierarchy of have s and have nots. These"business people " fear poverty worse than a hurricane.

[Ratty]

44. I'm having a hard time understanding the arguments

But I decided I'd read some of the more measured responses carefully to see if I could understand where people are coming from.

There seems to be wide agreement (though not 100% unanimous) that looting for food, water, diapers, and medicine is acceptable. But it's very difficult to separate the grain from the chaff in all these threads. One poster will posit the above and add that looting flatscreen TVs and etc., is not acceptable and that the law should deal with them. The reponses are typically worthless, with most continuing to harp on the fact that survivors need food and water to live. Some very few seem to imply that this is the downtrodden's chance and RIGHT to take what they can from their oppressors--I ignore those posts, they're really so few, they're just non representational and to be expected from the wide political spectrum that is us Democrats. The only three counter-arguments with merit that I can see are:

1. Police and National Guard must ignore looting and concentrate all of their resources on rescuing survivors, distributing supplies, and giving aid to the injured. I disagree and see a role for maintaining law and order, but at least these arguments have merit and it is a viewpoint I can sympathize with.

2. This isn't even a topic we should be discussing. Given the magnitude of the catastrophe and the horrendous loss of life, even discussing things like looting is ugly, petty and callous. No judgments as to the morality of looting--it simply does not matter at this point in time.

3. The majority of the looting IS for food and supplies. The profiteer looting is quite minimal and it is of course what the media plays up. Fox News would have us believe the poor are savage animals and we play right into their hands by discussing it.

Did I leave any rational arguments out?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

58. The Sllippery Slope

Let me preface my remark by clearly stating I have no problem with folks foraging for goods in a disaster area....


That being said if someone is emboldened enough to steal guns or an ATM machine in broad daylight because the law isn't around that person is emboldened enough to grab a piece of ass without asking....

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

63. Thanks..sums it up well for me

[sniffa]

69. NSMA

make them fucking stop, pLease!! x(

[DancingBear]

46. How do feel about the store owners who are price gouging?

If THOSE stores were looted, would your feelings change?

(not an accusation here- just trying to further understand your position, and to see if it contains shades of gray)

[Lex]

49. No, we just call that "capitalism" and say "hoo-ray!"

One day the poor people may rise up and decide to take more than their "fair share."

A revolution happens when the rich fat cats and corporations own too much of the wealth.

Might be refreshing, actually.

[William769]

54. Price gouging is wrong!

& those people will be dealt with, just like they were last year in Florida.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Wrong is wrong period.

[DancingBear]

66. I agree - but those folks will NEVER be dealt with

The magnitude of the disaster is too great.

I must ask, however, if breaking into a store and stealing food, water, diapers, etc. in a dire emergency is still a moral absolute "no" in your book.

Granted, the ability to discern one from the other in times like this is almost impossible, but I must argue here than some percentage of the forks engaging in said behavior are doing so for exactly these reasons.

How can that be TOTALLY wrong?

[Lerkfish]

55. I have sympathy for taking food and water...

in that situation.

[WilliamPitt]

60. If you're pissed

consider this as a consolation: everything they stole is now pretty much under water.

[Moderator]

72. Locking....

This is flamebait.