Hero to receive 2 years for freeing mink

[jilln]

(forwarded message)

The legal battle is finally over. On August 29th, Peter Young signed a plea offer from the
prosecution. On Friday September 2nd, Peter will plead guilty in Federal Court to
two counts of animal enterprise terrorism charges. He is expected to receive the
maximum sentence of 2 years. With 4 months in, and 2 months good time, Peter is
expected to walk free in just over 18 months (March 2007).

The deal has been in the works behind the scenes for 2 weeks. After working out the
sticking points, an agreement was reached that both Peter and his lawyer were happy
with. The deal breaker came when the prosecution agreed to include in the agreement,
resolution of an additional out of state charge, to which Peter will plead guilty
with time to run concurrent to his federal sentence. We have avoided publicizing
this unrelated third charge until the dust settled to avoid unwanted publicity
effecting the outcome, but will make the full details available shortly.

The federal charges which Peter will be pleading: Conspiracy to release mink from 6
fur farms in South Dakota, Wisconsin, and Iowa; and the actual release of 2400 mink
from a farm in Medford, Wisconsin. Altogether, Peter's involvement led to the
release of approximately 10,000 mink who would have otherwise been brutally murdered
for their fur.

While an activist doing prison time for selfless acts is never "good news," given
the weight of Peter's initial charges which carried the maximum of 82 years, the
current climate of law enforcement over animal liberation tactics, and the number of
fur farm raids which Peter was accused, we can at least say this: it could of been
much worse.

It is worth noting that this is the same deal reached by Peter's co-defendant,
Justin Samuel, the crucial difference being Justin turned informant to the FBI,
while Peter refused cooperation at every phase and received the same sentence. The
message is clear: not only are snitches reviled by activists with true motives, even
the FBI doesn't respect them.

Peter credits the outcome to the hard work of his attorney- who is made possible by
so many generous benefactors - as well as everyone who wrote, donated money, passed
out flyers, held benefits, visited him in jail, and a wonderful support team - all
who made an otherwise difficult time - easy.

While the hearing on Friday with be rather short, people from the mid-west are
encouraged to come.

When: Friday, Sept 2nd at 11am

Where: 120 N Henry St, Madison WI (4th floor)

Please stay tuned to the website, www.SupportPeter.com, for a statement from Peter
as well as more updates!

Don't forget to write Peter!

Peter Young #223341
Dane County Jail
115 W Doty St
Madison, WI 53703

[MercutioATC]

1. I think pet stores are cruel.

Should I be allowed to "free" all of the animals with no legal repercussions?

People suffered economic harm from his actions. The whole "animal rights" thing aside, shouldn't he be held responsible in some way?

[flvegan]

4. So it's okay to cause

outlandish suffering for monetary gain, and mind you, not some monetary gain for providing food nor survival, but for vanity? Am I reading this right?

Yes, animal rights aside, I ask this question.

I'll wait here for your answer...

[MercutioATC]

6. It's no different than raising cows for beef and leather products or

chickens for their meat. It's no different than having a catfish farm.

Oh wait, there's ONE difference...

...mink are cute ...

Only vegans who use NO animal products have an ethical leg to stand on here and that still doesn't address the REAL issue:

Raising mink is legal. So is using their fur for clothing. People who raise mink have made a financial investment and "liberating" the mink causes them financial damage.

If you want to end mink farming, get it legislated. Otherwise, protest all you want but when you break the law and, in doing so, intentionally cause financial hardship to another, there are (and should be) penalties.

[flvegan]

9. It's ETHICS, not "cute" thanks.

BTW, check the screen name...

Invading Iraq is legal. Eliminating the estate tax for the wealthy is legal. Not testing for mad cow disease is legal.

Get it legislated? Are you kidding? This country re-elected shitbag junior, and you want to rely on legistlation for what is ethically right?

Driving a Hummer is legal. It still isn't right. At what point does a moral or ethical stance by the people matter over what our "administration" tells us?

Yeah, there should be penalties, I agree. So long as it's a crime, a criminal should be punished.

I'm more than thrilled that "liberating" them (as you said) caused them financial damage. Just as those "buying blue" hope to cause financial damage to rethuglican corporations. It is somewhat about intent...right?

[MercutioATC]

17. How is it more ethical to kill a cow than a mink?

It IS about "cute".

I did notice your screen name, but do you believe that all use of animals as food and clothing should stop? Do you believe that it's O.K. to break the law to try to stop it?

We live in a society. As members of that society, we agree to a certain set of rules...some we agree with, some we don't. We protest the rules we don't agree with in an effort to get them changed. When we decide to simply ignore laws we don't like, there are penalties. That's the way it works. That's the way it HAS to work.

Setting the minks free wasn't on par with boycotting WalMart. It's like sneaking into a WalMart warehouse and stealing things. If you don't like people killing mink, don't buy fur, lobby for legal changes and attempt to change public opinion.

[flvegan]

25. No, it isn't. Maybe to you it is.

The use of animals as food and clothing, when there is an alternative, while the inherent cruelty in those systems exist, is wrong and should stop, yes. You disagree?

Break the law? Depends on the situation. Oh, and before you grin and spin, you've gotten a speeding ticket, right? We've ALL broken the law at some point.

As for your question, it is not more ethical to kill a cow than a mink. I never even remotely suggested that. Cute is in the eye of the beholder...or poster.

[MercutioATC]

39. I don't agree it should stop.

I don't have a problem with the use of animals for food and clothing (or medical procedures testing).


My point about "cute" was that it's the "cute" factor that most people respond to.

"DON'T BUY TUNA! THEY CATCH DOLPHINS IN THOSE NETS!!"

Yeah, what about the TUNA? Nobody cares, because tuna are ugly. Kill ugly tuna - fine. Kill Flipper - BAD.


And, regardless of YOUR set of ethics, mink farming is not illegal. It's not illegal because most people don't share your beliefs. What right do you (not you, specifically) have to harm another based on your individual views?

[flvegan]

48. Mink farming is not illegal, true.

However, the treatment of the animals subject to the farming is. It's glossed over because it's big business.

What right do you have to protest Wal-Mart, Halliburton or anyone else harming our people or country based on your individual views?

Look, take the personal thoughts out of this. WalMart mistreats it's workers, it's suppliers, etc. It's for profit. We all want it to end, right? Halliburton...jeez, where do we begin. They assist in killing people for profits. If I could free them, I would. That's part of why I'm here.

I haven't harmed another...I've kept harm from happening to another.

[MercutioATC]

You don't see a difference between legal protest and crime?

You ask "What right do you have to protest Wal-Mart, Halliburton or anyone else harming our people or country based on your individual views?".

I have EVERY right to PROTEST. What I don't have the right to do is break the law and cause damage to another based on my personal views when my victim is abiding by existing laws.

Nor does anybody.

[flvegan]

68. Intent, friend.

Why do you protest?

Is it 100% awareness, or are you hoping for a little damage? Be honest...

[MercutioATC]

77. Again, you really don't see the difference?

Protesting WalMart, hoping to cause economic loss by getting to share your views and not shop there is a legal form of protest.

You're saying that the intent of causing economic loss puts it on par with committing a crime?

[flvegan]

81. Intent is in the eye of the beholder, isn't it?

Outside laws, the one that causes is still the same, yes?

That makes one no better than the other, except that some book dictates as such.

[MercutioATC]

89. A question...

If I believe that abortion is nothing but the slaughter of unborn babies, regardless of the fact that "some book dictates" that it's legal, am I justified in burning down abortion clinics?

[flvegan]

97. Absolutely not.

But nobody burned down this mink farm.

Fire is unpredictable and dangerous.

However, and entertain me here, as I'm NOT comparing animals to babies. If you broke into a sweatshop labor farm, or somewhere that sold babies to labs or sold them for their skin, and stole them, and set them out (that still sounds wrong, sorry) for their own sake, I'd back you up.

That, and I don't share your belief of abortion. However, I share your belief in the sanctity of life and suffering.

Excellent question, and it was just waiting to be asked.

[MercutioATC]

106. I'm not stating these things as my beliefs, they're just examples.

I'm decidedly pro-choice.

O.k., no actual fire. Can I just vandalize the abortion clinic...really smash everything up? My point is, would I be justified in taking an abortion clinic out of commission in a way that would cause economic harm because I believed that what they were doing is unethical (even though it's legal)?

Is your hypothetical baby farm in the U.S. or someplace else? It makes a difference in how I answer.

[flvegan]

112. Fair questions

Vandalize how? Liberation is not always vandalization. So that's a loaded question. I'm not much of a smasher, no. Out of commission via destruction? Hmmm...not with you there.

I'm trying to understand your last question. Does it really matter? Seriously, I know laws differ, and I'm wondering if that's your drift...

[MercutioATC]

136. I'm saying that if it's not o.k. for anti-abortion activists to do it,

it's not o.k. for animal rights activists to do it.

Both have their beliefs and both are free to lawfully protest. Neither can impose their ethics on others in violation of the law.

Forget the vandalism. Would it be o.k. if they just stole all of the medical gear out of the clinic?



My question about the location of the "baby farm" matters in this way:

If it was in the U.S., the farm would be in violation of the law and no charges would arise from saving the babies.

If it were outside the U.S., the only legal scenario would be a sweatshop using children for their labor (I don't know of any place where it's legal to skin human babies). In that case, there would be no purpose to removing the children, as the practice is legal and would continue regardless. I might seek funds to support the families so they wouldn't send their children to factories, but kidnapping the children wouldn't solve anything.

[friesianrider]

So charge him with theft - petty crime.

:shrug:

Some things are worth fighting for, and going to jail for. It's why I understand many in the pro-life movement. I'd never kill the owner of a mink farm, but where there's injustice...

[MercutioATC]

154. The value of the mink was above the level of a petty theft.

That's the determining factor.

[friesianrider]

157. And we;re right back to profit, aren't we?

You seriously have no idea what you're talking about here.

[MercutioATC]

162. No, we're talking about why he wasn't charged with petty theft.

Petty theft has a legal definition. The minks that were stolen had a value outside of that definition.

It's a simple concept.

[friesianrider]

So they have value...it's right back to profit.

They are treated solely as items with value...like a fucking office desk.

[MercutioATC]

169. Yes, they DO have a value.

Are you saying that no animals should have an economic value attached to them?

[flvegan]

164. All about dollars, eh?

You should go visit New Orleans and tell THEM that.

[MercutioATC]

173. See Post #157.

We're talking about legal definitions.

[flvegan]

160. Well

Stealing the medical gear is still a form of vandalism. Now, before the salivating masses speak of the animals being "medical gear" and attempt to take my post and twist is like Limbaugh on a bender, I'm saying this...

Fur farms such as this are legal. Yes. However, the Animal Welfare Act states that what many of them do, this one included, does is in violation. The USDA does very little. I mean, they can't help us with mad cow, what are minks...puppy mills, etc, right?

The skinning of babies, of course, you realize was for point. Legal banter aside.

So, removing and relocating children in sweatshop conditions is meritless?

[MercutioATC]

188. Removing children isn't meritless, just pointless.

If you change their economic situation, they won't be in the sweatshops any more and you've broken no law.

If you DO remove them (in violation of law) you've accomplished nothing unless you've changed their economic situation...they'll just be put back to work someplace else.

Either way, the issue isn't the sweatshop, it's the economics that allow it to exist. If you're going to have to change that anyway, why not do it without breaking the law?

[friesianrider]

The person in question liberated the minks nt

nt

[MercutioATC]

141. No, he stole the minks from a legal business and disposed of them.

That's my point.

[friesianrider]

143. And how is that like vandalizing an abortion clinic?

You don't seem to have much of a point, in case you haven't picked up on that already.

[MercutioATC]

158. You honestly don't see the relationship?

In both cases, people are violating the law and causing economic harm to others (others who are operating within the law) based on their individual ethics.

I think it's a valid comparison.

Why do you feel it isn't?

[friesianrider]

163. Um, no, I don't.

One is liberating a victim, the other is vandalism. :shrug:

[MercutioATC]

165. I can't think of a plainer way to say it.

I guess we just disagree.

[friesianrider]

166. I can't either...not difficult to understand.

:shrug:

[jilln]

18. oh cry me a river

Get it legislated? Hello? Have you SEEN our government? Profit above all else. Who cares about their financial hardship? Are you upset about the Boston Tea Party too?

Peter Young is a hero who did a beautiful thing. Clear all the dollar signs from your eyes for a minute and maybe you'll see that.

[MercutioATC]

29. It's not about dollar signs, it's about social stability.

We can't simply break laws because we have some opinion (that the majority of society DOESN'T share). To YOU it's a "beautiful thing". To most people in this society, it's a crime.

I'm in favor of more environmentally-friendly power production. Does that make it O.K. for me to blow up power plants?

We all have the right to express our beliefs and work for change in this country. What we don't have the right to do is commit crimes in an attempt to force a minority view of ethics on the majority.

[jilln]

38. hey Mercutio

Take a look at this thread.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4539547

You can praise this LEGAL action. It took 15 years for this to come about. 15 years of hundreds or thousands of dogs being tortured and killed and sold into labs, but it was legal, so that's OK, right? However long it takes, just so long as it's not "criminal". Peter Young saved thousands of lives in one night.

By the way, animal cruelty is criminal in this country unless it's for a profit. Defend that.

[MercutioATC]

52. Hey Jill

By your own post, you've DISproven that "animal cruelty is criminal in this country unless it's for a profit".

Unless Baird did what he did for purely sadistic reasons, he did it for profit. He lost his license, paid a large fine and was put on probation.

[jilln]

60. I was talking about farming practices

[MercutioATC]

64. How are animal farming practices different from kennel practices?

They're both raising animals for profit.

I don't see your distinction.

[flvegan]

70. And there you go.

I hope you see the connection.

[MercutioATC]

80. I hope you see MY point.

[flvegan]

83. I do.

What I think (and I say that so as to not put words in your mouth, er...post) is that if you raise animals for profit, cruelty doesn't matter. It's about the profit. Am I wrong here?

[MercutioATC]

93. I don't think that statement is accurate.

My point was that Baird WAS raising animals for profit and he faced legal penalties for animal cruelty. There are limits.

I don't think "If you raise animals for profit, cruelty doesn't matter" is an accurate evaluation of the situation. If the law didn't think it mattered, Baird never would have been charged.

[flvegan]

98. 15 years.

You should research the case, really.

The USDA is a joke, proven here.

[MercutioATC]

109. Yes, I know, but Baird was STILL breaking the law.

(as proven by the outcome of the case)

Therefore, regardless of how long it took to resolve, there ARE limits. Cruelty is NOT "o.k. as long as it's for profit".

[flvegan]

116. But it WAS until someone

pushed and pushed and pushed and pushed and pushed...

A blind eye was turned, over and over...

[MercutioATC]

142. EXACTLY!

They pushed and pushed and pushed.....LEGALLY.

[flvegan]

151. And I guess

Rosa Parks should've given her seat to a white fella.

Not making a comparison between people and animals, but between intentions.

[friesianrider]

120. WTF..."Cruelty is NOT "o.k. as long as it's for profit"."

Seriously...are you kidding me?

What exactly do you call trucking an animal for hundreds of miles in severe heat or cold with no food or water, with wounds and injuries left untreated, only to have its throat slashed and tracheas ripped out? Then, if it's lucky, the animal dies quickly (within a few minutes).

This is what happens hundreds of times a day at ONE slaughterhouse. If someone did this to a dog or cat, they would be charged with cruelty. But because this cow is being slaughtered for "food" (re: profit) the law looks the other way.

Are you seriously suggesting this IS NOT cruelty? Please tell me you're not.

[MercutioATC]

152. I'm telling you that it's not in violation of animal cruelty laws.

You and I might find it cruel, but it's perfectly legal. If we want to change that law, we're free to attempt that.

If we want to protest in an attempt to get the slaughterhouses to change their methods, we're free to do that.

If we want to educate people in an attempt to get them to stop buying meat, causing the "offending" industries economic incentive to change their ways, we can do that, too.


What we can't do is impose our sense of ethics on others by breaking the law.

[friesianrider]

159. Yeah, good luck with that.

I guess when we see injustice, we're just supposed to sit quietly for 3 or 4 or 5 more generations until things change?

Sometimes "radical" actions are needed to draw attention to a cause - even if that occasionally means breaking the law. I personally believe this is one of those times. How many blacks broke the law to make their point? Sometimes breaking unjust "laws" is appropriate.

[MercutioATC]

170. I don't believe it was justified in this case.

We see it differently.

[friesianrider]

182. Well I absolutely do.

I'm sorry so many here on DU are so morally bankrupt that they cannot see skinning an animal alive is WRONG - even if it is for "profit". Such a shame.

[MercutioATC]

193. Nobody said that it isn't "wrong"

I think most of us realize that our personal sense of what's wrong doesn't give us the right to break the law and harm others.

[friesianrider]

113. Wow..you have no idea what you're talking about.

You need to educate yourself about the sick shit that goes on so you can have your hamburger and chicken club sandwich. Some pretty fucked up shit happens and is TOTALLY legal because it is for profit. Your belief that "there are limits" is absurd. Farm animals don;t have the same rights as dogs and cats for this very reason.

[MercutioATC]

179. I eat meat and wear leather and I don't have a problem with that.

Neither do the vast majority of Americans. I understand that you do, and you're certainly entitled to that opinion.

However, neither is illegal. Nor is the way most business provide those products.

[flvegan]

186. Hey...psst...the majority of Americans voted for Bush.

You like that crowd enough to invoke their belief system? Whatever...

[MercutioATC]

196. hey..psst...a minority of Americans are pedophiles.

I'm no more "invoking the belief system" of Bush voters than you are of pedophiles.

[friesianrider]

190. So where do you draw the line?

At cruelty to a dog? At skinning a cat alive? Or at skinning a mink alive? Or maybe just making it suffer for a long time? How long? 3 minutes? 5? 10?

[friesianrider]

103. Jilln, you're right.

I'm sorry others are so clouded...your last line says it all.

[smbolisnch]

44. "liberating" the mink causes them financial damage

GOOD.
It is cruel and if those who feel that to torture animals for monetary gain is their right, I consider a little financial hit nothing less than karma.

[Mairead]

10. But "the whole 'animal rights' thing" MUSTN'T be put aside!

That's the whole point. We're talking about living creatures being killed to make unneeded luxury clothing for the wealthy. Can there be anything less justifiable?

[MercutioATC]

21. Boy bands.

Well, you DID ask if there was anything less justifiable...

[flvegan]

26. Okay, THAT was funny.

Good point. That and Mary-Kate and Ashley Olson specials. Agreed?

[MercutioATC]

30. Agreed.

:hi:

[Mairead]

96. *snork* good one. (nt)

[jilln]

16. This was not a pet store (though they are also cruel)

Have you campaigned to pay slave "owners" back for what they lost?

[flvegan]

2. No comment. I'll take the 5th on that one.

Learn it, live it, love it.

Oh, wait...FUCK YOU Justin.

[Botany]

3. and the minks went out and did what minks do ......

..... they killed a bunch of other animals. and i bet a whole bunch
of cute little fuzzy bunnies were killed by the minks. Or they were killed
by native mink or weasel.

http://www.inhs.uiuc.edu/dnr/fur/species/mink.html

[flvegan]

5. Sniff...sniff...is that spin I smell?

I noticed you went for the "cute little fuzzy bunnies" rather than the "verminous rats" approach. You probably sought an audience not gained via the latter. "Cute little fuzzy bunnies" sells, whereas "rats" doesn't.

[MercutioATC]

7. Interesting statement you just made...

""Cute little fuzzy bunnies" sells, whereas "rats" doesn't."


Sorta like people getting worked up about killing cuddly little mink and not chickens or cows?

When's the last time you heard of an "animal activist" liberating a herd of cows?

[flvegan]

12. I've liberated chickens.

Ask me again...

[MercutioATC]

20. Let's consolidate this. I replied in Post #17.

[flvegan]

28. Consolidate nothing. What's your point?

[MercutioATC]

33. My point is we're posting the same issues twice in the same thread.

Let's keep it to one line in the thread (I was suggesting continuing from Post#17).

[flvegan]

36. Which I answered, hence my post here.

[MercutioATC]

67. O.K., well, I'M just going to reply upstream....

If you're interested in a reply from me, that's where they'll be.

[jim3775]

31. From a farm?

I hope it was a corporate farm and not a family one. If it was the latter you probably ruined a farmers revenues for the year. I hope he had insurance.

[flvegan]

35. Nope. I'd never do that.

It was a battery egg farm. They stopped feeding them (the chickens).

Want more? Google Trilby, Florida and Cypress Foods...

Thousands and thousands starved to death. Others, bulldozed into the ground, still alive. Even more, drowning in manure pits.

You want more?

[jilln]

22. wow, you haven't thought this out at all, have you?

It's quite a bit harder to let cows out and have them really get away, isn't it? Even so, the ALF has liberated cows, horses, goats, pigs, etc. and found them homes. All heroes. It has nothing to do with cute and everything to do with doing the most good possible.

[Botany]

8. no rats tend to be more urban ......

But a mink covered in blood from a CUTE FUZZY BUNNY now that is more
rural.

[flvegan]

13. And?

[Qibing Zero]

23. I giggled. nt

[Igel]

11. And then all the mink, after driving down the native mammal

population and depleting the native birds (because there would suddenly be thousands more predators high up in the food chain), would have died. Of starvation. Along with native predator species.

Or the minks might have bred, introducing a non-native species into the area.

How wonderful. Let's hear it for a stalwart defender of animals and the environment.

[flvegan]

14. hey...pssst...

you're a non-native invasive and destructive species. I'd stand up for you, too.

[Igel]

198. Yeah, but who needs more kudzu? n/t

[stevedeshazer]

15. They die

I don't condone mink farming, but releasing them into the wild ensures they will die a horrible death.

That's not heroic, it's just plain dumb.

[flvegan]

19. Because anal electrocution is much better

AND you have nothing to back that up. There is no "ensure" in your statement, especially no ensuring of a "horrible" death.

If I appear wrong to you, please do enlighten me...

Hell, maybe you think it is better. Or, maybe being skinned alive is better. Or, being stockpiled in a tiny cage to have your children done as such is better.

[stevedeshazer]

34. Starving, disease, predation and being run over sounds better.

You're right. I'm sure they'll be fine.

[flvegan]

37. Ask them.

Better yet, let me ask you:

You have a choice...I'm going to skin you alive, or set you free to make your own way. What's it going to be?

[stevedeshazer]

40. I already agreed with you.

I said you were right. Take yes for an answer.

[flvegan]

54. Hey, apologies.

Your reply sounded sarcastic. Please reread it and understand why I might have thought that.

[jilln]

24. and that's BS

[Walt Starr]

27. He deserved at least twice that

That was major theft and messed with somebody's method of making a living.

[flvegan]

32. Yeah, pardon my boo-friggity-hoo here.

It really doesn't matter how cruel one is to another IF they're making a living.

Let me ask you something...

The next reality tv show is "Skin A Dog Alive" or "Cat Dies Via Hammer"

Your input?

[Walt Starr]

42. Mink farms have been an acceptable form of agricultural endeavor

for more than a century.

Boo friggity hoo. The animals have been bred for quality of fur for generations upon generations and are incapable of surviving in the wild.

Cry me a fucking river. The only way to end mink farming is to end demand.

[jilln]

47. so if they are bred to use

we should do whatever we want to them?

[Walt Starr]

55. Yep, pretty much. Cows are bred for their muscle tissue

and skin. I ate a nice juicy medium rare steak tonight and right after, I loosened my leather belt.

[jilln]

58. Wow, you're a real man.

I am so impressed.

[Walt Starr]

61. Nope, I'm an omnivore who gets protein from animal tissue

which, my friend, is the reason the large cranium evolved in homonids.

[friesianrider]

137. Bwahahah!

Must have missed you, sir!

Love to see some documentation on that steaming pile of BS!

[flvegan]

105. Because it's cheap, easy

and people don't give a shit.

How's your closet set for sweatshop labor, buddy? Just wonderin' where you draw the line. At your leather belt, likely.

[JVS]

111. Did you use a mink napkin?

;-)

[friesianrider]

133. Wow...how impressive.

Pat yourself on the back, sir. Your wife must be so impressed by you.

[smbolisnch]

140. You are quick with those one liners, huh Walt?

:eyes:

[jilln]

41. so in your opinion the underground railroad was bad?

[Walt Starr]

43. Equating a mink with a human being

that's about the most asinine statement I;ve ever heard of.

[jilln]

45. and you made it!

The poster said it was theft and messed with someone's livelihood. So did the underground railroad.

The only reason you have a problem with equating living beings and according them all some respect is because then you'd have to stop exploiting that and heaven forbid you should be inconvenienced in any way. Much better to go on torturing and killing and looking the other way if you will sleep better at night.

[Walt Starr]

51. Minks are not human beings

no matter how much you want them to be,

They are nasty, smelly little carnivores who would tear the head off a bunny if given the opportunity.

They have nice fur, too.

I've never owned fur before, but after hearing this kind of nuttery supporting a fucked up criminal, I might have to go buy a fur jacket.

[jilln]

56. I'm surprised you don't already own one

By the way, humans can also be nasty smelly carnivores who tear heads off animals. Where will you buy your human suit?

[Walt Starr]

63. A "human suit" would be wrong.

But I loooove my leather jacket.

And I would have nothing other than a leather belt and leather shoes.

[Qibing Zero]

84. PETA was sick equating animals with jews in concentration camps, and...

..your statement is nearly as bad.

I'm all for respecting animals, including ones going to be killed, but you're taking things a few steps too far.

[BikeWriter]

49. Precisely, I agree. He's a freaking terrorist.

[flvegan]

57. Hey, everybody!!!! Right-wing talking points here!!!

Big f-ing surprise.

[MercutioATC]

71. Or, possibly, just "sensible talking points".

[BikeWriter]

72. So you support extortion and eco-terrorism?

[flvegan]

76. Isn't eco-terrorism a...well...

homeland security safety blanket? I mean, you know...the most "dangerous" group of terrists in the country?

You bought in. It's okay.

[BikeWriter]

82. Hey, most of the mink died slow, agonizing deaths in the wild.

I don't see how you can support that, much less unlawful acts.

[flvegan]

86. PROVE. UP. YOUR. POST.

Again, I ask...

Again, you fail to do so.

[BikeWriter]

91. I. don't. agree.

[flvegan]

99. Sorry. I missed where you backed up your statement.

Bad habit of yours, quite frankly, in these animal threads.

[BikeWriter]

104. EXCERPT FROM THE CLOSING STATEMENT OF MAGISTRATE

JUDGE STEPHEN CROCKER

Let's not forget about the suffering Mr. Samuel visited on the mink he seemed to think he was liberating. Mr. Coffey talked about this. Didn't go into much detail, but what is clear from the letters I have received and I hope it's clear to Mr. Samuel, for the most part he led those mink to deaths that were more slow, painful and traumatic than those they otherwise face. This doctrine of destroying something in order to save it lost credence during the Vietnam War. The end result of Mr. Samuel's acts of purported kindness visited death on the animals he was there to save.

http://www.furcommission.com/news/newsF01y.htm#anchor4726859

[flvegan]

Please...I beg you...please tell me you didn't quote the Fur Commission

in validating your post.

Oh, hey, Saddam flew some planes into the WTC. I heard it on freerepublic...

[BikeWriter]

114. I quoted the Judge!

[flvegan]

118. I failed to see the ENTIRE published opinion.

Just parts...posted by...oh, forget it.

You quoted the Fur Commission. Google should get a commission from some folks.

[BikeWriter]

122. Hey, you prove the Judge wrong! Can't do it, huh?

[flvegan]

132. Strawman...failure.

Am I in the courtroom? Do you have any idea what the judge said otherwise? Look, love the fur commission...I don't care. Just don't pass bs off as fact.

If you insist on that type of crap, check out freerublic.com

[BikeWriter]

138. freerublic? Never heard of them.

[flvegan]

168. Is that your best?

C'mon...

I'd suggest that was pathetic, BUT, it'd break the rules.

[Walt Starr]

65. He's a criminal who belongs in prison

and I, for one, am gglad he is behind bars.

[BikeWriter]

73. I'm right with you on that, Walt.

[smbolisnch]

108. Terrorist?? Give me a break.

:eyes:

[SofaKingLiberal]

146. Didn't you hear?

Everyone is a terrorist now. It's a new administration policy.
Pretty soon were going to have littering and J-walking terrorists.

[smbolisnch]

150. You better believe it.

This place is like a right wing talking points generator some nights. We have plenty of "regulars" for that. :eyes:

Welcome to DU SofaKingLiberal! :hi:

[SofaKingLiberal]

192. thanks

:toast:

[smbolisnch]

107. It's a BS way to make a living.

From the suffering of innocent animals? Sorry, his monetary loss will get no boo hoos from me.

[friesianrider]

125. Some people on here are so morally and ethically bankrupt

...it's really astonishing.

[BikeWriter]

46. He should serve several more years for cruelty to animals.

"In the interest of doing kind things for the animals, they actually end up doing the opposite," Johnson said. "The mink get released and they're quickly preyed upon by other animals and get run over by automobiles. So they certainly don't enjoy a kind fate once they are released into the harsh Wisconsin environment."

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/state/20050329-1641-ca-activistcaptured.html

[jilln]

53. so ramming an electric rod up their butts and frying them

from the inside out is preferable?

You have a strange idea of kindness to animals.

[BikeWriter]

66. Peter Young condemned them to slow painful deaths...

through his unlawful actions. The fur farmer's methods of killing are approved by law and quick.

[flvegan]

78. Jeez, I can't believe I'm saying this again to you...

prove. up. your. post.

Thanks.

[BikeWriter]

85. Sure, I posted a link!

"In the interest of doing kind things for the animals, they actually end up doing the opposite," Johnson said. "The mink get released and they're quickly preyed upon by other animals and get run over by automobiles. So they certainly don't enjoy a kind fate once they are released into the harsh Wisconsin environment."

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/state/20050329-1641-ca-activistcaptured.html

[flvegan]

87. When the FBI becomes your source for truth...

well...sorry.

Rumsfeld is cool, though, right?

[BikeWriter]

94. Try posting something proving the mink survived being released!

[flvegan]

100. Spin, spin, spin.

Try posting something proving they didn't.

We can do this forever.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

50. Peter Young strikes me as being a grandstanding idiot

Releasing 10,000 mink into an area that was never meant to hold 10,000 wild mink is environmentally irresponsible.

They're predators. The most aggressive ones will kill small animals and birds, compete with native predators for available food, and the rest will starve, That's a worse death than having their necks broken, which is how they killed minks on the farms near my father's hometown.

(I have to add, before somebody accuses me, that my father's family did NOT raise minks, but many of their neighbors did.)

If people are going to position themselves as "animal lovers," they should learn something about the animals they supposedly "love."

[flvegan]

62. Near your father's hometown...

So you can testify that ALL minks are disposed of this way, yes? Before you answer, I know a couple videos you should check out...just to educate yourself as to reality BEFORE you answer.

I'm sad that you witnessed the deaths of every single mink on that farm. Horrible!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

75. I'm only telling you what I heard when I visited my father's

hometown in the 1960s.

I'm not up on the latest developments in mink ranching, but I'm wondering how YOU know that the conditions portrayed in the video are true of every mink ranch in the world.

I stand by my statement that it's environmentally irresponsible to introduce thousands of predators into an environment that is not prepared to handle them.

I stand by my statement that many of the "animal liberationists" give little thought to what happens to the animals they "liberate."

I'm not saying that any animal should be tortured, but there are smart tactics and dumb tactic for stopping animal abuse.

[BikeWriter]

88. Yes'm, and legal and illegal tactics. Illegal means are supported by...

some of these posts.

[Mairead]

95. Many people learn to distinguish between "legal" and "ethical"

Often when they're quite young, too.

Other people, more dull or self-satisfied, never do. To them, 'legal' and 'ethical' are the same thing, as are 'illegal' and 'unethical'.

[flvegan]

129. Hold on...didn't you post somewhere that if

someone vandalized your clothes, you'd "send them to the hospital" or something.

[BikeWriter]

144. I would protect my property, yes.

[flvegan]

171. With violence, though it was asset based?

I expect you to chime in on the looting threads, too.

[BikeWriter]

177. Damned right.

[Name removed]

189. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[flvegan]

92. Good points.

Every mink ranch? I certainly do not. This one, however, is well documented.

Irresponsible? Possibly, yes.

I disagree completely with the "little though to what happens" statement. Stand by it, but you're wrong. Until you talk to them, you can stand by an incorrect statement driven by opinion.

Agreed. Smart v. dumb.

[Mairead]

90. Or maybe only a well-intentioned but fallible human?

I don't think anyone ever has a perfect handle on anything, do they? When I look back on all the mistakes I've made in my 65 years so far, I positively writhe. And every one of them was the result of the very best intelligence and intentions I could bring to bear at the time.

[LisaL]

59. So, WTF did happen to the mink released by the "hero"?

Are they all living happily ever after?

[flvegan]

74. Who knows?

Which is sort of a sad statement to some of the posts of death and suffering on this thread...

Do you know? I mean, specifically, what became of them?

[geomon666]

69. Hero? lol, give me a break n/t

[Dave Reynolds]

79. The "hero" should have stood on his beautiful principles

and took the whole 82 years.

Sell-out.

Oh, yeah..here comes the right wing talking point: ALF is a domestic terrorist group, as pitiful as they might be.

[flvegan]

102. How is he a "sell out" again?

[friesianrider]

101. He shouldn't have served a single fucking day IMHO.

Just my opinion.

[BikeWriter]

110. Would you say that if he "released" your horse from slavery?

[smbolisnch]

115. That's totally different, and you know it.

Minks are not released because they are enlosed, they are released so some hateful idiot doesn't get an opportunity to wear them on their back.

[BikeWriter]

128. Get off that horse! You are enslaving him!

[smbolisnch]

130. Is that the best you can come up with?

:shrug:

[BikeWriter]

Hee hee hee!

[friesianrider]

149. My horses don't get ridden

Don't you have birds, oh hypocrite?

[BikeWriter]

183. Free those poor horses! See if they live as long as the minks did.

[friesianrider]

187. What an insightful response!!! Triple exclamation points!!

Maybe if I just keep saying the same thing over and over!!! You'll understand me!!! This is a great way to make my illogical assertions!! Don't yuo think!!

[flvegan]

119. As much as your songbirds, BW.

[BikeWriter]

123. Those songbirds fly free.

[friesianrider]

127. Oh, BikeWriter, not this nonsense again.

My horses live in the fucking lap of luxury and don't even get ridden anymore. I've adopted countless horses from neglect and abuse, and they live a WONDERFUL life where they have everything they could ever want and need. Good vet care, good food, brand new barn to live in...the list goes on. I love my horses and pets likemy children and would give my fucking right arm to save any one of them.

Minks are kept in disgusting conditions before being skinned alive or killed by electrocution. They are raised for the sole purpose of being killed for their fur, and are kept by people who see them as money-makers and of no value outside of that.

You're obviously not a total idiot...please stop making these absurd comparisons.

[BikeWriter]

131. ACK! Turn those horses loose so they can run free!

[friesianrider]

139. Okay, maybe I was wrong about that "idiot" stuff.

Oh well. I tried. :eyes:

[BikeWriter]

148. Hey, I was only using animal rightist's talking points!

:shrug:

[friesianrider]

153. No, you're not. You're being an insensitive jerk and you know it.

Seriously...you need to lay off. You're all over these types of threads because you apparently have some bone to pick with people who support animal rights. If you think we're all psychos why don't you just friggin' say it and stop trying to draw these absurd comparisons?

I think you're way out of line here.

[BikeWriter]

174. Let the horses run free! Free the enslaved horses of the world!

Poor Mr. Ed!

[friesianrider]

185. Wow...how incredibly mature.

:eyes:

[flvegan]

191. It's all he has. It's all he has.

[jmowreader]

117. I take it starvation and predation are better than the alternative

On the great scale of heartlessness, the fur industry ranks above even Dick Cheney.

Releasing all the minks at a farm is not a solution; take animals which don't know how to live outside a cage and suddenly dump them on the ground, and one of two things will happen: they'll starve to death, or they'll be eaten.

I consider Peter no hero as he simply exchanged one form of cruelty for another. The only way to eliminate the cruelty of the fur trade is to eliminate the fur market. And running around telling people what NOT to wear won't do it; you need to come up with an alternative that people will like.

DU has some textile people; can a thick fabric be made with gold fiber in it? Rich women would like coats with real gold in them.

[geomon666]

134. Not that easy

Fur is a status symbol for the wealthy elite. Making a synthetic will just make the genuine all the more desired as the price goes up.

You have to make it illegal and that's just not going to happen.

[mopinko]

121. death is a part of life. get over it.

i have as much right to kill to eat as any other animal. i try to support farmers who treat their animals well, and their land well. these grandstanding stunts are ridiculous. he's not a hero, he's an immature idiot.

[smbolisnch]

124. No you don't.

But you keep telling yourself that to justify the cruelty that you are supporting.

He's as much a hero to some of us as Bush's beef industry buddies are to you, apparently.

[friesianrider]

156. Oh boy...another real manly man here.

:eyes:

Yeah, treating a living thing like shit then skinning it alive is just like a person dying from old age. Seriously...I get it. :sarcasm:

[flvegan]

175. You kill to eat all your meals? Or does someone else do it for you?

[Qibing Zero]

126. Looks like someone missed the 'Bullshit' on animal rights groups!

I'm talking Penn and Teller, of course.

[smbolisnch]

135. Ha! What a surprise you get your talking points form that RW idiot.

:eyes:

[Qibing Zero]

147. I used tons of talking points in my short response there.

In no way do I subscribe to all of their personal political beliefs (I'm no libertarian, but last I checked even they were against bush and the war), but that doesn't mean they can't put a decent show together. Please feel free to refute any of the things presented either on the show in question though. Really.

[smbolisnch]

155. Sure thing. What do you have?

What wonderful ahem...'facts' did you learn from Penn and Teller? I'd be happy to discuss them with you.

[Qibing Zero]

167. Perhaps you should watch the show in question before insulting them?

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html

[smbolisnch]

176. So then you aren't interested in deabating this?

What a surprise. :eyes:

[Qibing Zero]

194. What, do you think I have a copy of the show on hand?

It'd do you some good to watch it. Off the top of my head:

-Advocating and participating in terrorism in the name of putting animals on a human level
-Killing the majority of the animals they take in themselves, while bashing animal shelters for having to kill much fewer
-Arson: burning animal research labs down to the ground
-Wanting to outlaw animal research when the vice president must use medicine that only came about through animal testing in order to live
-The comparisons on PETA's website of animals to jews in concentration camps


Of course, you've already shown that arguing with you is going to lead toward a whole slew of fallacies, soooo... -.-

[flvegan]

145. And looks like someone missed the "Bullshit" on (there's a list)

College
Endangered species
The Bible
Alternative medicine

Yes, keep that argument alive. It serves you well.

I'm done with this one.

[Qibing Zero]

161. Nope, I've seen them.

And boy, they couldn't possibly ever be right if they've presented questionable topics before.

Strange you picked those shows though.


Do you think we should legislate against 'offending' someone with words?

Have you even read the old testament?

Did you really think those alternative medicine 'doctors' were in it for the good of the people?

[flvegan]

178. My point lies in the idiocy of the hosts (Penn and Teller)

Nothing more.

[Qibing Zero]

197. Then you have no point at all. nt

[Silverhair]

172. Hero?? Not even.

And since PETA, in the popular mind, is associated with the left (Note that in this same thread anti-PETA statements were called RW talking points. Further, I doubt you will find any PETA posts on FR.)then antics like that, and much of the general silliness of PETA, helps drive middle of the road voters to vote Republican.

I wonder how many Republican votes he created by his act?

[smbolisnch]

180. Oh give me a break!!!!!!!!!!

You are honestly implying that people will vote as republicans over this? I bet.

[flvegan]

181. Finally!!!!! Thank Pat Robertson that someone finally invoked

PETA 4 times in a post where PETA wasn't involved.

Go study how many thug votes he created. Let us know the results.

[smbolisnch]

184. *snort*

:rofl:

[BikeWriter]

195. PeTa doesn't support ALF?

Before it established a press office in the U.S., ALF activities were frequently publicized by People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA), a Norfolk, Virginia-based animal rights organization whose controversial advertisement campaigns have generated substantial publicity since the group's founding in 1980. PETA has openly supported ALF: in 1995, the organization gave $45,200 to the legal defense of Rod Coronado, while co-founder Ingrid Newkirk applauds ALF's efforts in two of her books.

http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/Ecoterrorism.asp?LEARN_Cat=Extremism&LEARN_SubCat=Extremism_in_America&xpicked=4&item=eco

[Technowitch]

199. Locking

This has become a flamefest.

-Technowitch
DU Moderator