The "I can't believe the looting" threads may very well be INTENTIONAL

[DancingBear]

Many are being started by people who are looking to disrupt this board.

Leave them be.

Those of us here who know what truly matters in a disaster like this will act accordingly. We can see right through you.

I have no words (at least none that will keep me as an active member of this community) for those of you who see the world in black and white.

May it never happen to you.

[Birthmark]

1. Agreed.

I will take your wise advice and not waste any more time debating this dubious topic. Thanks.

[etherealtruth]

2. Good idea ...

None of us knows how we would react in a desperate situation ... ah, we can be very arrogant from the safety of our desks ...but, we don't know ...

Nominated!

[babylonsister]

3. "May it never happen to you" - well said, DB. nt

[Lone_Star_Dem]

4. What?

You don't think they should all be shot on the spot? :sarcasm:

Yep, I've tried not to fuel those fires. I find they tend to burn themselves out quite nicely if you don't supply them with fuel.

[shanti]

9. isn't that what the chimp said?

that they should be shot? :eyes:

[Lone_Star_Dem]

13. Maybe that is where I heard that...

Actually, it was from a person who also claimed they were tearing out electrical wires and starting fires. Ummmm, they have no electricity. :P

Some people just don't come prepared to a debate, ya know?

[elehhhhna]

30. Chimp said "zero tolerance" for looters & price gougers.

[raccoon]

63. I guess he & his Big Oil friends aren't price gougers, huh.

And Cheney's friends at Halliburton.

[hlthe2b]

5. YES.. this is classical GOP tactic to try and deflect criticism...

Those of you who have been on their mailing lists know that they reward volunteers for doing so.

DON'T FEED THE BEAST. Let them drown in their OWN Guilty Juices!

[benburch]

6. There are indeed organized disruptors here.

The folks who hounded Andy Stephenson to his death have set their sites on destroying this board.

[Thtwudbeme]

11. No, Ben....they won't destroy DU

They are just weirdos with keyboards...just put them on "ignore" when you see them....AFTER alerting the mods so they can issue them their very own tombstone.

Stephanie

[M155Y_A1CH]

67. You are too kind

I don't wait until they say something covered by the DU rules. I hit on that little sleeping guy as soon as I spot 'em.

I hope the mods take a look at the ignore figures on a questionable poster when they try to decide if someone should be banned.

[Thtwudbeme]

69. I wonder if the mods can do that?

Interesting, I never thought of that before.

You should see this thread on my computer right now! It's actually a pleasant read!

Thanks for your post...I have never been called "too kind" on DU before! ;)

Stephanie

[tx_dem41]

7. What "truly matters in a disaster like this"?

And what do you mean by "act accordingly"?

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tx_dem41]

20. Excuse me....you're not king of the board....

not even close.

Your beloved looters attempted to overrun my father-in-law's neonatal nursery last night (at first I thought this was at Charity...but after talking this morning with him...it was Tulane Med Center).

Please...defend it. Be my f-ing guest.

[Thtwudbeme]

25. There is a difference between looters and armed criminals

kindly learn the difference.

[tx_dem41]

31. Kindly learn what it means to be part of a community that pulls...

together, instead of an f'ing mob.

[johnnie]

35. I posted this one before

Main Entry: 1loot
Pronunciation: 'lüt
Function: noun
Etymology: Hindi lut; akin to Sanskrit luntati he plunders
1 : goods usually of considerable value taken in war : SPOILS
2 : something held to resemble goods of value seized in war: as a : something appropriated illegally often by force or violence b : illicit gains by public officials c : MONEY
3 : the action of looting

[mondo joe]

40. Kindly define each please.

It will be easier to distinguish then.

[Thtwudbeme]

44. Gee. I am stunned to see you here

shocked, I tell ya.

[mondo joe]

Are you going to define the two or not?

Are we to read your mind?

[Thtwudbeme]

53. No, dear. Not for you

nt

[mondo joe]

59. So you ask people to keep in mind a difference you see, but you won't

say what that difference is?

Nice communications style there. Thanks.

[K-W]

61. interrogating people is a much better communications style EOM

[mondo joe]

66. Who's interrogating? A poster asked to observe a difference and I would

like to know what the difference is.

[quaoar]

47. Exactly

Many of these people are not just poor people trying to survive. Many of these people actually are thugs. People who break into a hospital should be shot on sight.

[Thtwudbeme]

8. I am slooowly picking up on that...it took me too long

but, I have noticed that a few long time DUers have made some comments that made me think, "wtf???" I don't wonder anymore...I put them on ignore...pretty obvious who they are, and what they are doing on DU.

Funny thing is, I have read people's posts on Conservative sites...several conservative sites....who bragged about their "high post count on DU." I used to think, "Jesus, do these people not have a life? Do they just hang out on the computer and use it as a substitute for human interaction?"

Now I know...they really are just plain, sad weirdos.

The irony is that if they were in the hurricane, they are probably the ones mentally unstable enough to steal a gun, and start acting like jackasses.

Stephanie

[Eloriel]

57. Just remember that some of these "longterm DUers" are

either really conservative Dems (if they're Dems at all) and therefore don't really have all that much in common with the rest of us, or have slipped thru the moderation cracks. It happens, probably way more than we realize.

[Thtwudbeme]

60. Hi Eloriel!

I agree...you should see the thread from my computer now...it is much calmer since I "cyber smudged!" ;)

Good to see you...hope you all are OK in your state with the gas stuff going on-

I wish I had a garden to play in right now-

Stephanie

[madokie]

10. I agree

[fishnfla]

14. Glad your brother doesnt have a business in Gretna

may that never happen to you

What the storm didnt take, and the damage was not severe on the westbank, the criminals will

Which DUers are you calling out dancingbear?

[Thtwudbeme]

23. He's not really calling anyone out

There have been trolls on DU for a long time, and he is just saying that they are now using the looting issue to start flamewar threads under the guise of being concerned for business owners.

Did your brother lose his business? I am so sorry to hear about the DUers here who have lost so much. There is one that hasn't posted since the night before the hurricane, and no one seems to know even who he is.

Very sad and scary

[fishnfla]

42. My brothers business may have survived the storm, but not looters

Near as I can tell from the storm discussion forums, there was a tornado nearby his store, but no flood damage. He's in Terrytown. his home is, (was?), near Slidell

The police are reporting looting of homes and businesses in the area.

There is a two sides to the human face on this isssue.

Unless you post about it on DU, then you are just a disrupter.

Fucking bullshit

[Thtwudbeme]

46. I understand your anger completely

This storm has disrupted so many lives..

I am so sorry for your family---I wish I could do anything besides post to a stranger on an internet board about how sorry I am. I know the words look awfully empty.

Stephanie

[Junkdrawer]

15. I agree...Don't feed the trolls...Let's start a "Don't blame the victims"

thread and keep it on the top.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Junkdrawer]

39. "Not your beloved thugs"...

I'm from Johnstown, PA. In 1978, after the cloud burst flood, National Guard troops were in every neighborhood within 24 hours.

Leave gun shops unguarded for days and this sort of thing surprises you?

And, I'll say, calmly, for the record, I'll defend the right of starving people to "loot" food and water until help arrives, but I never have and never will defend thugs who use force to do the things you describe.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[greatauntoftriplets]

82. "Beloved thugs"???

Jeez.

[mondo joe]

41. Do you mean like blaming the victims of the looting? As if it's THEIR

fault everyone wasn't evacuated?

[Junkdrawer]

49. Let me get your position straight...

Hundreds of thousands were not evacuated - aid is taking days to arrive, and you believe that, even if a person is hungry, starving, or in need of medical help, property rights should be enforced? :shrug:

[mondo joe]

64. Where on earth did you get THAT as my position?

If people take needed food or medicine or other essentials I don't object in the least. I never have, not once, not even close. In fact I have repeatedly said they should and I'd do the same.

Beyond that, looting is a problem that compounds the victimization of the hurricane, and the poor and working class people are the ones who bear the brunt of it. Permitting a climate of lawlessness cannot be a benefit to those survivors still in NO, and as was posted last night there are news reports of both armed gangs and armed families looking to protect themselves - a recipe for disaster.

The US federal government has failed miserably in both the long and short term. But the people of NO are the victims of looting, and they are not the responsible parties.

[Junkdrawer]

70. We agree. I was reacting to the "the victims of the looting" question...

and, since much of the talk on TV is about the "poor shop owners who are being looted", I assumed that was what you were referring to.

Since the "looting" started, I've noticed that both local and national media have been changing the focus of the story from "the suffering of those not evacuated" to "the poor victims of looting".

[mondo joe]

74. I can't measure that coverage - I do think there's SO much coverage

everything is getting a shake and sensationalism will always bow to things like the looting.

I think on DU the looting issue has gotten a lot more play because it's a divisive issue and even those who mostly agree (which I do think is most of us) tend to get polarized by the differences.

[Junkdrawer]

75. I tuned into WDSL yesterday and was treated to an hour long rant...

against looting complete with a promise of the LA Attorney General that all looters, including to those taking food and water would be prosecuted based on televised footage. To me, that seemed like "blaming the victims".

[mondo joe]

77. Of course it is.

But I think blaming the lack of evacuation for theft of other non essential things is also blaming the victims. Those people weren't responsible for the lack of evacuation.

It's just miserable all around.

[I concur]

16. I don't believe them to be intentional.

I find looting and lawlessness in a crisis deplorable. And I note that the armed gangs who looted gun stores are now firing on police and even helicopters trying to rescue trapped people. Looting (as well as price-gouging) reports really anger me because they show the absolute callousness of selfish people in the wake of a catastophy.

[ret5hd]

21. Paging Inspector Javert!!!... Paging Inspector Javert!!!..

There are reports of a certain "Jean Valjean" and associated types running loose in New Orleans and Mississippi! Please report IMMEDIATELY!!!

[I concur]

37. "Jean Valjean" was reformed...

...when he was caught stealing a set of candlesticks from a priest trying to help him. You apparently missed that point...?

[Tinoire]

62. Exploiting the poor and misusing the tax money that should help them

is excusable however right?

Gotcha.

For a disgusting example of "the absolute callousness of selfish people in the wake of a catastophy", look no further than the criminals (and their supporters) who have transferred the welfare of the poor to the corporations.

[I concur]

80. There's a trite old axiom...

...it goes: "Two wrongs don't make a right!" Corporate looters (Enron, et al) are bad but victims do have the courts and lawsuits to fall on for relief. With looters, however (and because of the poverty you describe), the only relief is a 2,400 fps projectile targeted at the skull. Sad!

[Pacifist Patriot]

86. Are those reports credible?

I saw a report last night that said it was misinformation being disseminated. "Armed gangs" wasn't remotely was it's like on the ground.

[Pacifist Patriot]

89. Okay, I just saw a report on MSNBC.com about gunshots fired

during the evacuation of the Superdome. Still looking for a link between looted gun stores, armed gangs and the shots fired though.

[ret5hd]

17. i strongly agree...and thought so from almost the first one.

however, may i still post my "PAGING INSPECTOR JAVERT...PAGING INSPECTOR JAVERT!!!..." responses to the threads? (The posters don't seem to get the reference anyway)

[DancingBear]

Hee-hee

I think so. :)

[notadmblnd]

18. I'm ignoring them.

some of them sound too much like those who must not be named.

[Lerkfish]

19. I was wondering the same thing..

I just was in a thread where I had to make the point that saving people is more important than saving stuff, and then realized, why the frick do I have to make that point?

[DistressedAmerican]

22. Absolutely, It Is A Veritable Freep-A-Palooza Around Here Right Now!

Just had a visit on my latest thread myself.

[DancingBear]

26. I missed you at Camp Casey

I hung around by your sign for a while, hoping to meet you last Saturday.

Oh well, maybe in D.C.?

[DistressedAmerican]

29. Definitely In Washington! PM Me As It Approaches!

We should definitely be putting together a pretty large crew!

[JimmyJazz]

79. All they can do is come here and disrupt because they know they don't

have a leg to stand on when it comes to defending Bush and his horrid behavior during this tragedy.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[K-W]

38. I think the poster did say what he/she meant.

You are asking for a response to straw men you erected.

[DancingBear]

48. Thanks

Sometimes it's just not worth the effort - ya know?

[K-W]

50. 'welcome, and yes I do. EOM

[DistressedAmerican]

52. You Sure Do Hang On...

Your posts are getting mighty ripe though!

[ladjf]

28. The looting issue is trivial compared to what the citizens

of the area are experiencing and will experience. That soggy, useless merchandise if of no significant consequence. Yes, there may be some cases of persons being robbed. But still, in the overall scheme of things is not the big issue. Robberies were happening before the storm and are happening in cities all over the country.

[theHandpuppet]

32. Agreed!

I've tried to point this out for some time now but folks just keep posting more threads about furking looting. LET'S GET OUR PRIORITIES STRAIGHT, PEOPLE!

[earthside]

33. What Looting is Really About

First, the interest in the looting part of this crisis is not going to go away just because you ignore it. It is a compelling and graphic part of this story.

I also believe that the radical Republicans, for some perverted reason, think that somehow the looting 'delegitimizes' this catastrophy. Why? Who knows ... I know they are upset that this is going to detract from the 9/11 celebrations that were anxiously awaiting.

But we need to talk about this looting.

First, it underscore the absence of the National Guard and military away in Iraq. The looting never should have gotten started and never would have gotten out of hand if the Guard had been home where it belongs. The looting is another indictment of Bush's reckless use of the National Guard.

Second, the looting is also a sign of desparation on the part of some who are participating. When you subconciously believe that you have nothing to lose, that the end is near, that no one is going to help you ... the normal restraints of civil behavior fall away. If the federal emergency response had been timely and deliberate, the looting would have been minimized.

Finally, I think this has something to do with the moral tone that has taken over in the halls of power in this nation over the past five years. The ethics of the Bush regime have been 'get your own', 'take what you want', if you have the power-go get rich. The Halliburton war profiteering, the tax cuts for the super rich, the obscene salary and bonuses for CEOs have had their impact.

Bush and the radical Republicans have been looting the federal treasury for five years now and getting away with it ... that is the moral and ethical message from out so-called leaders that is giving some bad folks in New Orleans a false sense of permission to do a little of their own looting.

[quaoar]

58. And maybe some of it is just plain thuggery

You don't have to search for a sociological reason why some people would try to storm a hospital or a nursing home.

Frankly, I don't care of those people are desperate or worried the world is coming to an end. If someone gets shot trying to steal a generator from a nursing home, I won't shed a single tear.

[Eloriel]

68. Excellent post -- and here's another

that I thought excellent:

When the social contract is broken by the powers that be, "looting"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=nominate&forum=104&thread=4520980

[Pacifist Patriot]

90. Excellent analysis.

I agree. While the conditions and actions are deplorable they are most definitely understandable.

[KittyWampus]

34. the first looter thread of the morning was started by sniffa....

the imbalance on DU is endemic.

[DancingBear]

36. What part of "many" escapes you?

Hint: It does not mean all.

Geez.

[earth mom]

45. Thanks for saying this.

I agree wholeheartedly. I don't think there are many if any REAL DEMS who would give a damn about people taking food or even t.v.s. All that stuff will be written off no doubt anyway.

Dems care about PEOPLE. That's the bottom line.

Screw the disrupters-it is OBVIOUS who you are. :puke:

[johnnie]

51. I only posted one

It was a thread asking where the stories were coming from. Since then I have seen a lot more.

I don't think that thinking is black and white. I have a friend who lives in the French Quarters. I was there once and it was a pretty cool house. The ceilings are like 15 feet high, there was a garden and it was a typical house you would expect to find in that section of town. I knew him through another friend whom I went to visit while he lived there a few years ago. In fact the house was so cool that Playboy did a photo shoot in his house a few months after I was there.

Anyway... The guy who lived there split to Alabama before the hurricane. We were all hoping he was doing fine and we got word from him yesterday. It seems that he talked to his neighbor who told him his house made it through, but "the looters are taking everything". Those aren't my words.

I'm sure that the guy and his wife are happy that they and their children are still alive, but he is really hit hard that he will be going back to a house that will have nothing left. My friend suggested our band do a benefit to raise some cash, get some cloths and toys for the kids and whatever else we can do.

This is the only person from the gulf that I personally know, but I'm sure it isn't the only person that is facing the same situation. These are the people I have been talking about. I don't think that makes me a freeper.

[K-W]

54. If you arent thinking black and white

or posting to disrupt, then this thread probably isnt about you.

The problem is that some people most certainly are and this is creating an entirely artificial dispute that is boiling over in this forum.

I dont think that honest DU'rs actually disagree much about this issue. This whole thing is just a bunch of people trying to spin opinions into something that sounds like a defense of violence or for-profit theft so that DU'rs will turn on each other.

[DancingBear]

78. Well said

What we are discussing here is the straw man argument presented as gospel.

There is of course no denying the fact that selfishness, thuggery, violence, etc. will exponentially increase when the protections put in place to prevent it break down. The same folks who are roaming the streets with guns and attacking rescue personnel would do so EVEN IF THE HURRICANE HADN'T HAPPENED - had they the means to do so without repercussion. Welcome to human nature -sad as it is at times.

What is happening now is akin to (in a bizarre sort of way) to parents leaving the candy jar open when they go out for the evening.

To think that this would not happen is folly.

To focus on it as being of primary concern is sad.

To make is black vs. white is disgusting.

[johnnie]

81. "To make is black vs. white is disgusting."

I agree 100%. I tried to say that the other day, but had little luck with the people I was talking at. I was accused of not having compassion because I wasn't sticking up for the looters. I never said that finding essentials is wrong, I was saying that taking people's personal property such as jewelry and dvd players was not very cool.

It seemed like the ones who were "attacking" me was only seeing it as "the people are all hungry and starving and need food and water".
Oh well, I think this is my last word on this subject.

[DancingBear]

84. I didn't see your post

but I can certainly agree with your first paragraph.

Keep posting if you have things to say - it's how we ALL learn.

[K-W]

85. And that is what happens when you have disrupters.

All the people who are simply trying to defend legitimate neccessity looting, all the people who are commenting on the media's sensationalizing looting, and all the people trying to give reasoned analysis of crime get thrown on the defensive by disruptors and lead into arguments by disrupters.

Then when a perfectly honest DU'r reads their defensive posts and asks why they seem to be so adement about defending looters and brings up the destructive or violent looters, they get confronted with all the attitude and defensiveness that was originally inspired by the disrupter who was not arguing honestly.

In the end it serves to create a conflict between two people who probably agree.

[Bridget Burke]

65. Some here will probably accuse your friend of being too prosperous.

Not all looting is being done for necessities. Especially looting of homes & shops that do NOT sell food & water. Of course, many victims of the looting are fairly poor, too. They only had a small TV! Well founded fear of looting is one of the reasons people don't evacuate before a storm.

Is looting a form of Performance Art, depicting the angst produced by urban anomie?

Many burglers have socioeconomic problems, as well. Is that an excuse?

[K-W]

72. And if they dont someone will just invent a straw man.

Some here will probably accuse your friend of being too prosperous.

Except that nobody has. I am not saying there arent or havent been people on this forum who would say something like that, but the only people on this thread who have brought up such sentiments are those who are using it as a straw man.

By and large most people are not making extreme comments like that just as by and large most people are not purposefully disrupting the forum with this argument.

But perhaps we could have a more civil forum if we both ignored the destinct minority of people who make stupid extreme comments and the destinct minority of people who are trying to feul infighting and focus on having constructive discussions.

[necso]

55. Looting (because of a catastrophe) is a divisive subject,

as are most topics that deal with the conflicts between necessity (or practicality) and "principle". Many people cling to black and white distinctions -- an always-right or always-wrong point of view -- or so they would have you think. But these same people often treat other matters of "principle" as being situational (not to mention how "situationally" they may treat matters more personal to them -- particularly those related to material success, self-gratification, etc). For example, many believe that killing other human beings is permitted in certain circumstances, but not in others. (And if you use "murder" in the place of killing" (to make it an "absolute" "thou shall not"), you're just using different words to describe the exact same ethical distinction -- and dilemma -- that sometimes you can kill, sometimes you can't.)

"Looting", "looters" and "soft on looters" are clearly emerging as neocon counterattacks to (try to) cover up their incompetence. (At the very least they could have evacuated the city after the event. I mean, geeze, it takes boats and buses.) And, after all, they have to defend the honor of that great god, private property -- even if it's under water that was let spill into New Orleans -- and even if it's being "looted" by people that should have been evacuated.

It's a good line, and it's been working here... And I suspect that it will get wider traction. -- The neocons are pretty good at preying on simpletons.

[Chico Man]

56. Quick question..

Is the looting beginning to hamper rescue efforts by diverting rescue personnel?

I can condone looting for food, water, etc. But I've heard stories of armed gangs and complete lawlessness.

Sure, there was probably no way to avoid the escalation given the circumstances. This is something that would have happened, regardless.

It is probably human nature's survival instinct kicking in.. however awful it may look to outsiders.. myself included.

[NNN0LHI]

71. Noticed it a couple of days ago. It was pretty obvious

Anyone who has not lived through something like this and then sit back in judgment of these people can go fuck themselves.

Don

[demgrrrll]

91. I agree. And what is this I am reading about the dimwit refusing foreign

aid from Canada, I read they are standing by ready to go and that the Canadian forces have not heard from the U S ? I am almost blind with rage. The only reason they are focusing on looting is to keep people from thinking about Bush's giant screw up.

[oasis]

73. They are beginning to see the error of their ways. Their brazen manner

has subsided.

[RevCheesehead]

76. I automatically hide those things.

That and the vanity gasoline price posts.

**I DON'T GIVE A DAMN HOW MUCH GAS COSTS IN YOUR AREA - PEOPLE ARE DYING!!**

[tsuki]

83. Amen.

[adubadee]

87. walk a mile

I've read most of this thread but might have missed a few posts. Sorry if I am repeating something.

Put yourself at ground zero with children and without even a roof over your head.
There has been ZERO sign of any kind of assistance for days, and your kids are turning unnatural colors due to dehydration, lack of needed medicine, etc.
Your surroundings are teaming with snakes, rats, and other disease riddled vermin that keep your kids as well as yourself in a state of being scared shitless.
You start to have intense headaches(dehydration), and your insides are doing things they have not done in the past 30 some odd years of being alive.
All the while your children are crying at the top of their lungs due to the fact that they probably feel worse than you.
People are dying around you due to the same symptoms you have been feeling, and as every minute passes the hope of seeing any kind of help is diminishing.
Bands of people who were in even more desperate circumstances than yourself are converging to help themselves as well as each other through this hell on earth scenario. They may have taken a tv early on due to complete ignorance, but have long since dumped it. Oh. and they have guns.
You must take things into your own hands. You need clean water and food to survive which at this point barely exists. What do you do? Pray?
I would imagine every poor soul down there has put at least a full 24 hours of prayer in already.(even the witchdoctors!)
Wait it out?
As was mentioned earlier family, friends, enemies, and strangers are dying around you.
Do you just die a martyr happily knowing that you didn't brake any of "god's" commandments, but in turn ending your family's life and hope as well.

I myself would first, loot until there was not a crust of bread to be had. I cannot say for sure what would happen after that.
I do know we the human race have an inherent will to survive.
How far this will to live goes in my opinion depends on the persons sub conscience.
The poorer people of New Orleans who just so happen to be the ones suffering the most at this point in time have had (in some instances I would imagine) daily brushes with this will to survive.

Up ahead is a hospital where people are as close to death as yourself.
What do you do.

[sniffa]

88. weLcome to DU

and thank you for a rationaL, post. it's needed. :D :hi: