"Dean is a phony will just say what he needs in order to get your vote"

[janekat]

http://www.pressaction.com/pablog/archives/001000.html
“……keep in mind that Dean is no progressive. He just wants your vote. And like most politicians he'll say what he needs in order to get what he wants..... Don't let him fool you into thinking he's anything more than regressive. He's simply not.”

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/08/269121.shtml
I suspect we'd rather not actually know who the real Howard Dean is. He just pulled the wool over everyone's eyes thanks to AP news and reporters who can't bother to research or question - in CA this week he said he supports the Kyoto Protocol, when in fact, he's on record as not supporting it. No one said anything about it, and now the average cheering fan thinks Dean supports Kyoto.

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/07/267969.shtml
“Dean's strategy is to pick a handful of issues - the war, gay rights, healthcare - and spout off that he's so against Bush on these issues, that Bush is so wrong, etc., but when examined in more depth, Dean shows that what he offers isn't 'progressive' by any stretch, but is actually fairly similar to what Bush offers.

[StopTheMorans]

1. is it flame-war time already?

still mad because Clark isn't a registered Dem yet? Is it time to resurrect Clark's skeletons once again? Just let me know, I'll have to go find my bookmarks:) GD'ers, get out your flamethrowers:grr:

[janekat]

21. Hey was tired of seeing all the "Clark is not a registered Dem.

"Clark is a Lobbyist" "CLark worked with Kissinger"

Thought I'd throw something else that's a little different for a change.

It's okay for you guys to post all your lame allegations form the freeper site but we can't post something about Dean. My article aren't from Counterpunch at least...

[StopTheMorans]

37. "lame allegations from the freeper site"

first off, it's not good form to call people freepers here or to incinuate that they are (your comment walks a not-so-fine line). Second, the Clark allegations are coming from the left too. Counterpunch is not a "freeper" site my friend, are you on the left, or can't you vouch for that?

[Tinoire]

45. Naw - it's not any different

It's just that, while you were sleeping ;) you missed all the Dean excitement. Dean has already been through the wringer and came out of it alive.

Your boy's gonna have to go through it like the rest of them- he is a Dem right? If his seems a little too brutal to you, just consider it part of the initiation ritual- you know, the welcome to the Democratic party initiation ;)


... All these attempts to prevent that are only making it look as if Clark supporters are either terrified something will come out or juvenile.

[JaneQPublic]

47. Hey, I'm glad janekat posted these links

I have a few Republican, Libertarian, and Independent friends who kind of like Dean but are afraid of the "Liberal" label that keeps getting pinned on him. When I show them these articles, they'll see that he isn't owned lock, stock, and barrel by the "Loopy Left Extremests."

Thanks, janekat!

[clar]

2. Go! Go! Go!

You have only a couple of more days to post revolting flamebait such as this, complete with dubious sources, in GD. I say, make the most of it!

[kentuck]

3. If the new rules were in effect, would this post be deemed "inflammatory"

Just curious. Since it is in quotation marks, it is not necessarily the thoughts of the poster...

[liberalnurse]

25. I am curious about that myself......

Will this insanity continue because they can fly under the radar?

[denverbill]

4. Jeb Bush disparaged Dean today too. Why didn't you post that?

Or did you figure that would be too obvious?

[liberalnurse]

11. Wel lets realize this.....

Clark isn't even a democrat. He's a RNC Plant! Howard Dean on the other hand is a life long democrat of honor and dignity with a proven successful track record, for the people!

Clark is a hypocrite who was encourage to cheat and decieve his way onto the Democratic Platform.....


See, it's easy to post shit......It does not feel good to have someone attack for the purpose of hurting strangers....peers who visit this site to be enlightened.

I don't like it anymore than the next devoted democrat.

Stop the flames!

[clar]

16. Your remarks

are no less inflammatory and contemptible than those of the original poster's.

[liberalnurse]

Yes, I know this......

I wanted to get the posters attention. One posts and runs without real discussion. It's like they throw stones.

[JohnKleeb]

31. I agree with you on flamebait

But Dean isnt a lifelong democrat, I will NOT hold that against him though. You see when Dean was 16 he went with his father to the 1964 Republican Convention. I can for sure forgive that, I assume that Dean and his family probably wanted Nelson Rockefeller not Barry Goldwater. I dont think youre wrong in your message that this shit is wrong as it gets but Howard Dean isnt a lifelong democrat but hey Reagan wasnt a lifetime republican and he became one of the worst ever. Just saying you nailed this.

[wildwww2]

48. It is obvious. Jeb Bu$h disparages Floridians everyday with neglect.

So you are correct it is way too obvious. Jeb`s only good for one thing and disparaging anyone that is not part of Bu$h Inc. like himself. Is that one thing.
Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President

[10digits]

5. well

dean still blows,hard.

[clar]

8. To hit alert or not to hit alert

that is the question.

[StopTheMorans]

10. already did, I'm not a fortune teller

but I see a tombstone in the future if current trends continue. or maybe that's just wishful thinking:)

[E_Zapata]

13. More of the "with us or against us" mentality?

How absolutely bushite. tsk tsk - if it is so unfounded, why do dean supporters get so in a twist.

It is true:

Dean supports current Pentagon funding

The only thing he is against re the Iraq invasion was the way we did it

Wants to send 400,000 troops in. He 'says' an international force, but he can't have an international force with his view that the US should run the show (same prob bush has). So, to get 400K troops in there, it will take american troops and we don't have them to give to Iraq (same prob as Bush).

He won't work to repeal the USPA - just tweak to help civil liberties

He wants to fund medicare by decreasing benefit payments by raising the age for eligibility (that has been his stance for years)

He seems to think the Afghanistan war is over: "I supportED it" (Is he in any way interested in the 28 classified pages of the 911 report? That might shed some light on whether anyone should have supportED the invasion of Afghanistan. And Dean won't even talk about the 911 investigations -- not until his supporters ask him to, and you guys just let him ride on that. That's downright IRRESPONSIBLE of you guys)

He is for free trade not fair trade - keep GATT and NAFTA as they are

Kyoto? I honestly don't know what Dean has/has not said about it but I know he isn't making an issue of getting in on Kyoto.

Gay rights/marriage? Nope, Dean says it is a state issue. How can a CONSTITUTIONAL civil liberties issue NOT be a federal issue? He's backsliding. And word to the Dean campers: Dean didn't lift a finger to get that gay marriage law on the book; he was forced to sign the bill. That's it. Yet, he takes all the credit and does what he can to not talk about it. Playing both sides of the fence: keep the gay vote and keep the bigots' votes.

The same way Dean gets out of gun control issues: "state's rights". Assault weapons don't have anything to do with living in rural or urban areas - the feds should ban them. Dean doesn't think so.

The list goes on and on.

[HFishbine]

29. "He won't work to repeal the USPA"

And Clark would send it out on a national bookmobile tour.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

20. You called that one (Tombstone)

Good riddance, eh?

[StopTheMorans]

39. for sure:) n/t

[youngred]

18. Are you always so eloquent?

or is it just our lucky day?

[GumboYaYa]

6. The vast majority of the instances of "phonyism"

cited in those articles relate to the media's misperception of Dean. Anyone paying attention knows Dean has always cast himself as a fiscal conservative. At one time the media attempted to paint Dean as a progressive liberal in order to marginalize his campaign. That is not Dean's fault.

Dean is not a phony as your title suggests. He is exactly who he says he is. Socailly liberal and fiscally conservative. If you don't like that don't vote for him, but you gain no respect from me by using inflammatorty language that is not supported by the links you use.

If you want to know who Dean is listen to his speeches and visit his website. He is not scared of taking a position on issues and explaining his reasoning for the position. When the facts change or he gains more knowledge, he will change positions and explain reasons for the change.

Personally, I like having a President who will listen to the facts and make a reasoned decision and not be so bogged down in ideology that he can't admit when he is wrong and change positions.

[Gringo]

7. All Pols say what they need to get your votes.

At least Dean is a democrat, and has held public office before, and NEVER gushed lovingly over the unelected chimp.

[dkf]

40. And never raised funds for Republicans.

[liberalnurse]

9. Anyone here actually read this shit post?

I didn't think so.....Ha Ha Ha....

A buddy of Rushes on hillbilly heroin?.....I see drooling, nose scratching and ass licking.....from across the board.....Oh, I can smell the aroma and it ain't daisies neither....the essense of "flamebait" for sure.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[liberalnurse]

19. Oh, make no mistake.....

I did not read this flaimbait stinch! One can smell the difference.


Oh, by the way...don't ever, ever call me a Moran again!!!!!

[liberalnurse]

30. Are you calling me a Moran?

.

[WoodrowFan]

32. why dont you both take a time out./

sheesh

[liberalnurse]

38. Good idea!

I'm going to watch the soaps.....more realistic....:)

[leetrisck]

12. All Democratic candidates are far above

anything the Repukes can throw at us -

[Jim Sagle]

14. This thread ain't nuthin' but shit.

[RichM]

36. As usual, Mr. Sagle's incisive analysis cuts to the heart of the matter.

What is the point of this thread? It's like saying, "I want to see some mud wrestling - so get in the pits and start wriggling!"

[youngred]

15. Thanks for raising the bar of discussion

gotta get this in before the new rules about actually putting thought into things and not being offensive shuts you down eh?

[WoodrowFan]

22. FLAMEBAIT

Aren't a lot of the anti-Clark threads started with material from this same source?? So, what's up with Indymedia?? They just don't like Democrats?

[WoodrowFan]

23. sorry, dbl post

hit enter too many times...

[pdx_prog]

24. I support Edwards but,

Isn't Dean much better than Bush? The majority will decide, and our candidate will be the one that the people want. We will stand behind the last man standing.

[JNelson6563]

26. Brilliant strategy!!

I just love to see the RNC operatives show their hand like this. At least we know what will be thrown at us in the General. Thanks for the heads up! :hi:

Julie--who likes to warm her hands over the flames of posts like this

[Capn Sunshine]

33. Ahhhh.. that feels nice

Toasty, isn't it?

If any of the shit flingers would READ Gov. Dean's positions it would be really apparent that thisis another bogus charge.

One of the first things he says is "You may not agree with every position I take." This is the exact opposite of saying anything to get a vote. The exact opposite. Gov. Dean continues :

"This isn't about me--

IT'S ABOUT YOU. YOU HAVE THE POWER TO TAKE THE COUNTRY BACK!"

So take notice litter box inhabitants.
There must be a better way to make a living, huh? Isn't Wal Mart coming to your town?

[Speed8098]

27. This thread looks like it should be on the freeper board

:wtf: is going on. Since when did we start talking to each other this way? You all need to sit back and chill out.

Take a break, have a smoke if you're a smoker, but cut this shit out.

We are all Democrats, and the agenda is to get this criminal administration out of the White House, and it won't happen if this infighting keeps up

So please, be civil to each other, don't give the re:puke:'s any ammunition.

[in_cog_ni_to]

28. OK, something is seriously wrong

with me! I am a Dean supprter AND I like General Clark...a lot! I may even vote for him. Why can't we just support all of our wonderful Democratic candidates?

[WoodrowFan]

35. Alas, because

some of us are apparently so full of anger and hate that we go after even fellow Democrats with lies and rw rumors..."moran! Lier! Shit! RNC plant!" etc, etc.

And I'm a Clark supporter who likes Dean BTW.

[Hoppin_Mad]

34. Rush Pillboy, take some more goofballs and chill out

You're quacking like a duck again ;-)

[ima_sinnic]

41. yawn, another bitter supporter of some other candidate

who IS your candidate, by the way?
can't find anything positive to say about him or her?
does this mean you're going to vote for BushCo if Dean gets the nomination?

[dofus]

42. "Dean is a phony will just say what he needs in order to get your vote"

You say it like it's a bad thing.

[jobycom]

43. One reason Dean, Gore, etc sound like Bush

Is that Bush goes out of his way to try to sound moderate. So do our candidates. Thus, they collide in the middle. At this point, I don't think anyone can argue that Bush is not a far right-winger, and that even a true moderate would be far to the left of him.

I'm not supporting or opposing Dean here, just mentioning that Bush uses this tactic a lot. Remember the Gore debates, and all the times Gore said "I agree?" If you look at where he said it, you'll see that both candidates were trying to appeal to the middle, not expressing their actual views. They were trying to show that where their views seemed extreme, you could actually state them in a way that seemed moderate. It's called spin.

So if Bush said "I'm for the right of every responsible citizen to own a gun," for instance, Gore knows he is trying to say that Gore isn't. So to counter, Gore says "I agree, every RESPONSIBLE citizen should have that right." They don't agree. Each candidate rephrases his belief in a way that seems most appealing to the largest number of people.

The real problem, as always, is Bush, not Dean. He's not my top choice, but he's an angel compared to Bush. Then again, I find myself longing for the sophistication and eloquence of Dan Qauyle, these days.

[Jackhammer Jesus]

44. Putting the shoe on the other foot.

Deanies who blow off this post should take it into consideration if they feel the need to make an equally inflammatory "Clark is incompetent," "Clark is a Republican/Independent," "Clark is a disruptor" posts.

If you disregard this as flamebait, you should realize anti-Clark threads are no better and no more productive.

And, once again, the holier-than-thou "You're stupid for liking Clark because ___" posts don't make Dean look any more appealing. Especially when his picture is next to the post.

Same goes for threads like this. I don't care HOW many stories you link, when you post a negative opinion as fact it just doesn't reflect well on you - Deanie, Clarkie, Liebermanie, whoever.

[sandnsea]

46. Rule #3, this isn't a conservative source

It's just quotes and links with no opinion and no apparent purpose.

[jonoboy]

49. say what you want

but look at the alternative..can the USA or indeed the world afford 4 more years of Bush. Dean it has to be.

[fabius]

50. Must be working because he's got my vote!!!! n/t

[Must_B_Free]

51. Isn't that what politics is?

?