Lots of SUV posts lately. Lots of discussion about the need to haul stuff

[flamin lib]

as a justification for owning one. Mostly just bashing people who might own one. I've got a degree in Automotive Technology from many years ago (was called "repair and maintenance" back then) and have kept up with the trade. I have relatives on the ground level in that business.

DUer's are missing the whole point.

Suppose you have 3 kids and a dog. Suppose you're still married like most of us blues are. That's five seats minimum, possibly one with a child seat.

Your options are a full size SUV or a mini van.

Ya' know what? The mpg difference between an anemic 2.2L mini and a full sized SUV is almost naught.

Why?

Both are classified as "light trucks". Light trucks have a different CAFE standard than "cars".

A v8 in a full sized car gets 29 hwy. In an PU truck it gets 17. Same weight vehicle, same horsepower, less performance 0-60 in the truck. Mini Van with 2.2L may get 19 mpg.

Why?

Car meets CAFE for passenger cars and has about $50 more in electronics to make the engine economical. For instance, the truck fires the injectors in banks of four. Half the fuel puddles in the intake, half arrives too late for peak firing. The car fires each cylinder independently at peak timing.

Save $50 a vehicle times 1.5 million vehicles and you're talking real money. The guy in charge of the 1997 T bird design team was fired because it came in $50 over budget. $50 on a $20,000 vehicle.

Just lighten up on people who for whatever reason drive what they drive.

Okay, ready for the first one to cast a stone . . .

[kikiek]

1. I'd be happy if people would just slow down. Drive 55.

[flamin lib]

4. Yeah, my other vehicle is a compact that gets 35 hwy.

Current combined is only 30 which would be a lot better if we didn't have to dodge the high speed freeway kamakazis.

It really isn't comfortable above 65 but we'd get rear ended at that speed. Average speed on local Interstates is 85 and most tickes are written for 95 plus.

The Lincoln Mark VIII I traded for the little car (28.8 hwy at 90 mph) was perfectly happy at those speeds, but maintenance got to be too much.

*Sigh*, sure miss the leather, computerized headlights and automated lips on the dash.

[benburch]

2. I've got no problem with it..

Though I did see one guy literally crying at the pump today filling his 19 gallon tank up at $3.23 a gallon...

(I drive a Prius)

[physioex]

3. BS I don't believe this for a second....

Car meets CAFE for passenger cars and has about $50 more in electronics to make the engine economical. For instance, the truck fires the injectors in banks of four. Half the fuel puddles in the intake, half arrives too late for peak firing. The car fires each cylinder independently at peak timing

I have taken courses in automotive electronics. Most cars are fuel injected which means the air in the intake manifold are NOT air/fuel mixture like carbuerated vechiles. Rather it is simply plain old air, and as far as I know the computer opens the injectors no differently in an SUV than an automobile. Which I think should be PRECISELY on the intake stroke when the intake valves are open and the air is rushing in. Or they would have made a course for SUV engines and one for car engines.......

Please don't side step the discussion with frivolous things like the the T-Bird.....

[flamin lib]

10. Sorry to upset you. Fact is that the injection systems on "light trucks"

and other aspects of the vehicle are different from passenger cars. Why else do "light trucks" get less economy than vehicles of similar weight and displacement?

It's true that trucks usually have a lower gear ratio and cam lift/timing aimed at torque for towing but that can't account for the large discrepancy in performance. Some difference I'll buy, but 29 vs 17 empty?

There are other things as well. Late 80's Ford PU trucks monitored engine load and changed fuel/air mixture to match immediate load. That's a good thing, it keeps the engine from destroying itself. Bad news it that the PLCC didn't re-adjust the mixture for several hundred miles. Engines ran rich, fouled plugs and generally consumed a lot of fuel until the fix was applied. My sister had one. Younger brother "fixed" it with some unauthorized replacement parts from the dealership he worked at.

The part about the T birds was just to point out the pressure on designers to control costs. Autos are a high volume commodity and price pressure is really high--witness discounts, rebates etc.

The car makers are in business to turn a profit, you can't blame them for playing by the rules.

[physioex]

16. LOL...No I am not upset...

All gasoline engines have to have 14.7:1 air/fuel ratio to run at their optimal performace. If not it runs either too rich or too lean, and the computer (modern ones) work towards that goal regardless of the type of vechicle.

You didn't mention that poor performace could also be due to the heavy weight of SUV's compared to cars. Cars have a Unibody construction with strut suspension. While SUV use the body on chasis with leaf springs.

Here is how I feel about SUVs most families don't need an SUV, mine grew up just fine without one. Sure there are cases were people do need them to tow, carry, haul, and what not. And if there is any good that comes of this gas price increases, it will start getting people to reconsider the need for one.....

Personally I don't think it is very smart to spend close $100+ to fill up a tank on a vechile, but that's just me....

[flamin lib]

20. We're on the same song sheet and in the same hymnal.

"Need" is subjective. One of my friends bought a Hummer. I took one look at it and said,"Shit, if I had that much money I'd buy a 'Vette and get all the hummers I want . . ."

Yes, modern injection systems have come a long way from the 25 year old Ford my sister owned. Still, there wasn't a fix offered because most owners used it in light duty or heavy duty most of the time.

Still, the point of the OP was that painting with a broad brush slaps a lot of faces.

Don't judge on appearance alone.

That went out with the Civil Rights Movement.

[tallahasseedem]

5. I have an SUV and just parked it....

in favor for my little 1994 sedan to save on gas. I am so glad I didnt sell it. But you are right when I have to haul my kids and Husband around the SUV just works better.

[friesianrider]

6. Thank you...I have an SUV and have gotten trashed for it before, sadly.

And MANY people (like me) do need it. I don't have kids, but we do animal rescue every weekend, plus I have several horses and need something to pull a horse trailer and hay trailer to get a few hundred bales of hay every few weeks/months. Plus, we often buy bags of shavings in bulk (you can only get 6 or so in a normal-sized car).

My SUV is a Jeep Grand Cherokee V8, so it isn't the smallest SUV but it surely isn't the biggest. I think it gets pretty good gas mileage as far as SUVs go...

Nonetheless, while I understand the frustration with the soccer Moms who drive Escalades/Expeditions/Excursions, I'd for one appreciate people understanding some of us actually do use our SUVs for things other than driving the kids back and forth to ballet and football practice.

[Carolab]

7. I grew up in a family of five WITH a dog.

We NEVER had a problem fitting everyone into my dad's various sedans.

[physioex]

9. Exactly....

We grew up on a mid-sized sedan. This is just plain silliness. When gasoline reaches $4/gal things will start to sink in a lot more. Just do the math 30gal * $4/gal is a $120. I can't justify that type of expenditure. But hey if you can afford it, so be it........

[flamin lib]

14. Good for you. Glad to hear it. Now go shop for a vehicle to fit that

same family and see what you find. My first car was a 1958 Chevy Belaire 2 door hard top with bench seats front and rear. Jeez, I could fit half my graduating high school class in that thing! Of course we didn't know $#!t about seat belts and such.

Best buy I found was a Saturn VUE at five passenger, 29/24. Need six? Back to the mini vs SUV decision.

BTW the Chev had 348 cubic inches, three carbs and got 22 combined (yeah, I monitored that stuff). Not bad considering it only had two speeds, idle and near my God to thee . . .

[Beaverhausen]

8. big familes and dogs have been around a lot longer than SUVs

90% of the SUVs I see have one person in them. The driver.

[MazeRat7]

11. Yes some people actually "use" their's....

By that I mean I _used_ to have a 1990 Toyota 4-Runner that finally died after giving me 250,000 great miles. Why ? Two Reasons.

1) I hauled about $10k worth of keyboard and other band equipment frequently and needed a dry, secure, place to keep that gear when away from home.

2) I go camping in the back woods off of forrest roads and the like one or twice/ year and needed the off-road capability and "secure, dry" storage location since I have to drive out of Texas to find any decent camping (PS.. New Mexico *grin).


When I sold the "SUV", I bought a 2003 Tundra truck and put a camper shell on it for exactly the same reason. Its still an SUV... it just looks like a truck. And you know what... I still use if for the very same things... Show me any other consumer vehicle that will fill both those roles and I will consider it. Until then.. its trucks and SUV's.

So.. usage is critical and blanket statements about SUV's, while well intentioned, are just plain ignorant.

MZr7

[Beaverhausen]

15. Your reasons are better than most people's - however

...I had a honda civic sedan (not hatchback) and was able to put

2 speakers
1 amp "head"
1 keyboard
Keyboard Stand
Mike Stand
gig bag
2 guitars
2 guitar stands &
one other person

in it.

and I read somewhere that 87% of people who have SUVs never take them "offroad."

[MazeRat7]

18. Yes I only could fit one other person for both tasks as well.

However, the equipment list was significantly larger. *tee hee.

I will say that the interior space of the Subaru (sp) Outback is impressive and it has the ground clearance for off road. Don't know about the mileage however.

But brand loyalty send me back to Toyota and the Tundra is just fine for now. It actually gets better mileage than my v6 4-Runner and its a v8. FYI.. I am getting 17/20 depending on my driving habits. The 4-runner got 14 no matter what I did. (mpg when loaded)

MZr7

thats loaded with gear... not the driver. *grin.

[Beaverhausen]

21. ah...the Rick Wakeman keyboard set-up?

Toyota is making great hybrids. I got a Prius in May. It has tons of room.

[MazeRat7]

24. Yes... But I use every one of them during a show. *grin...

[Pobeka]

12. We have a 4 cyl 4runner.

It gets about 28/29 mpg with combination city/hwy driving. And we agonized a little about that, but it has plenty of power for the 4 of us and our camping gear, or for road trips. I do work at trying to get the best mpg (mostly avoiding those jack-rabbit starts).

I remember last time my uncle picked us up from the airport on a visit to my parents house his minivan was getting 23 mpg, on the highway.

I didn't feel so bad about our 4runner after that experience.

[MazeRat7]

13. The 220-R Engine I believe... pre 1990. Yes those were great. *grin

[Pobeka]

19. It still is! n/t.

[DelawareValleyDem]

17. One quick note about 'anemic' minivans

2.2 liter engines are increasingly rare. Most contemporary vans have at least a 3 liter V6. Also, many are rated for 25MPG and above highway.

spelling edit

[flamin lib]

23. Yes, things are coming around on performance. Most of it is because

people are asking why the difference in mileage vs performance.

The reason for the OP was that we shouldn't paint with a broad brush. There are reasons people buy what they buy.

I saw a brand new Lamborghini today. 0-60 in 2.5 sec. It took my breath away, I'm a gear head. It gets 8/6 mpg.

So what? It gets driven maybe ten miles a month. That's $3.50 in fuel cost and a hell of a lot less green house than the average hybrid produces on any given day.

I have a 27 year old two seat sports car (owned it for 25 years) that could be an everyday driver. Gets 20 combined. It burns less gas than any poster on this thread.

So stop with the "I hate SUVs and those who drive them" mentality. That went out when Martin Luther King Jr gave the "I had a dream" speech.

[KamaAina]

22. Redeem yourselves, SUVers! Use your tanks to haul stuff to N.O.!

Gawd knows FEMA ain't gonna do it... :grr:

[democracyindanger]

25. Hallelujah. nt

[LeftyMom]

26. The van is much safer

That said, a wagon would work for a family of five and dog too. I can fit LeftyKid (and his carseat, a Britax Husky, the largest non-special needs seat on the market, which takes up about as much space as a very large adult) and the two kids I babysit (one in a booster) in my SW1, which is very small for a wagon. I can fit a jogging stroller and costco-sized load of groceries in the back, so I think most family dogs would fit in the same space. (A Subaru Outback, Mazda 5 or Ford Taurus wagon would do the trick too, as would any smallish minivan. Any one would be safer than an SUV, except possibly the Mazda, I haven't seen the crash test ratings on that one.)

I've even fit three carseats across in my wagon, although the carseats have to be chosen carefully (paying $80 for a booster instead of $30 still beats buying a larger car and getting reamed at the gas pump.)

I know some people really do need an SUV, my best friend is one of them. Most of the people who have them don't.

[miss_kitty]

27. Well if everyone adhered to what you espouse-great

(I mean the 3 kids and a dog)
but what about the single guy down the street from me half a mile from downtown who drives the spotless new black Suburban to work every day? Or the asshat landlord for the building next door who often drives his Ford Excursion around the hood.

Both single drivers, Mr Fordasaurus has multiple vehicles.

What about the countless sooccer moms who hop into the SUV to drive themselves only to the grocery store for a few things.

I've nothing against an SUV used to capacity. but at least here in Seattle, 1-2 people as rule in SUVs is, in my opinion, not a prudent use of resourses.