"Those fucking ships that are coming? I don't see them."--Mayor of NO.

[tjdee]

Ray Nagin said that, and you know what?

THE USNS COMFORT HAS NOT EVEN LEFT YET.

According to the Baltimore Sun, it's leaving TODAY.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/weather/hurricane/bal-comfort0831,1,7707119.story?coll=bal-local-headlines

This is unfuckingbelievable. You know how long people can live without water? 3 days. This is day four of five, depending on who you ask. People are dying.

[MADem]

1. USNS Comfort

It takes a day or two to unwrap her...she isn't "at the ready" 24/7. She has to be stocked, made ready for sea, and manned.

[tjdee]

3. Fixed that-- well gee, you know, knowing a Category 5 was coming since

Sunday....I'd say that was some time to get at the ready.

Maybe I'm just a freak.

[MADem]

6. It would have been far cheaper had the feds gotten BUSES to NO

to evacuate the people ahead of the storm. Moving that hospital ship is not an easy task, but drumming up a thousand or three buses would have been much simpler. And so many more lives would have been saved.

[blurp]

9. Maybe the feds should have just taken control of the city Saturday

It's obvious that the city didn't have much of a plan of it's own.

[Bridget Burke]

14. It's obvious the Feds don't have a plan even now.

Except for Bushie's photo op!

[blurp]

15. Good point. No one had a plan, apparently.

[MADem]

17. They planned, or hoped, that the levees would not fail

FEMA's faith-based hurricane planning!

[txindy]

39. They had plenty of school buses to use. Hundreds are now underwater.

Flatbed trucks. The NG trucks are in Iraq, unarmored and being blown up, so they couldn't help. The helicopters were sent to Iraq, too. As if that helps.

Ted Koppel had good points last night on 'Nightline' when he slammed Brown from FEMA. They knew this was coming, yet did nothing to help evacuate people other than telling them to "get out." As if that provided buses, trucks, etc. Now they've known since the weekend what a disaster this is and STILL they haven't prepared the ships to help out in the flooded areas.

Un-freakin-believable.

[blurp]

71. One kid stole a school bus! He was the only one thinking.

Ted Koppel had good points last night on 'Nightline' when he slammed Brown from FEMA. They knew this was coming, yet did nothing to help evacuate people other than telling them to "get out."

Just how much should the federal government do to help people evacuate? The poeple in the best position to know what should be done and how it should be done are the people of the city and especially the Mayor. It's his job to plan and organize such an evacuation.

As if that provided buses, trucks, etc. Now they've known since the weekend what a disaster this is and STILL they haven't prepared the ships to help out in the flooded areas.

There was one kid in New Orleans that had the exact right idea about handling the situation.

What did he do? When the order to evacuate came, he stole a school bus and started picking people up and taking them to the dome!

He had more damn brains than the Mayor or the Governor or Bush.

[mattclearing]

53. Have you seen gas prices lately?

Nothing cheap about buses at all...

[MADem]

60. Cheaper than helos, which is what they are using now n/t

[mattclearing]

62. True. n/t

[MyNameGoesHere]

5. Sorry have to call bs

on that. ALL Naval vessels are capable of steaming in less than 24 hours to escape... Hurricanes. Ironic isn't it? Maybe she would have left under manned but sometimes just the thought that something is being done makes a difference. Oh and the Navy has a little deal called UNREP. Look it up.

[MADem]

10. Sorry to have to correct YOU

Yes, you could put a captain and a couple of bosn'ns and engineering types on that ship and sortie it. But what the FUCK GOOD WOULD THAT DO?

It is a hospital ship, ya dunce. You have to fill it full of medicines and supplies, you have to round up the doctors and nurses and corpsmen and cut their orders and put them on the vessel. You sail that ship without material and hospital staff, you might as well send an oil tanker for all the good it will do.

Don't tell me my job, pal, I did that shit for thirty years.

[MyNameGoesHere]

20. Sorry to have your emotions

rule your thoughts i understand your limitations. However why are you not stating the fact that several of the bases in the area have people assigned to the Comfort? And since we have been at "war" for such a long time do you really expect me to believe that it hasn't had a hightened mannning level? Please take your very unwelcome anger and place it correctly where it belongs, I am not your enemy and do not deserve your tirade.

[ScreamingMeemie]

29. Welcome to DU, LibFromWV....

I waited at least a month before I started a flamewar. :toast:

[MyNameGoesHere]

77. Flame war?

Please you are putting way too much thought into that. Differing opinions does not make a war. There is a saying i learned from my military days, "Do something, even if it's wrong" At least it could have gotten underway and gave the impression someone gives a crap.

[MADem]

34. The Comfort is not manned

They have a small skeleton crew, but that is a floating thousand bed hospital, and a couple of dozen caretakers and an OIC ain't gonna cut it. They will now run around and get everything working, stocked, stacked, cleaned and ready.

They pull the staff from Bethesda and elsewhere. The staff right now is taking care of Gulf War patients at WR and NRMC, and likely a few over at NIH too. Some are on leave--Labor Day weekend coming up. They have to pull these people off their current duties or back from vacation and cut them orders, give them time to pack, and get aboard the ship. When the ship deploys, the staff configuration depends on the type of work they will be doing--you don't bring podiatrists to handle gunshot wounds, e.g.

The crew, those who operate the vessel, are civilian USNS types.

What emotions? I just don't care for bs, is all--and you were the one who suggested that I was full of that very thing, when it is you who does not know how the game works.

We have a doctor and nurse shortage in this country--it would not make sense to have a full medical staff of a thousand bed facility enjoying the air in Baltimore Harbor, simply waiting to be deployed.

[blurp]

11. Could the ship have found a port?

There is sunken material all over. Sure, they may have been able to leave with 24 hours notice, but do they what they're going to do with the ship once they get there?

[MADem]

13. They can drop anchor offshore if they cannot get pierside

...and run utility boats back and forth (water taxis, in essence) and use the helo pad.

[Nordmadr]

22. Have to agree here. Being that I was IN the Navy. I ship can

get underway with as little as 1/4 of it's crew, and furthermore can recall liberty and get virtually all crew aboard and ready to get underway within 24 hours.

Furthermore, as LibFromWV pointed out, there is UNREP, which stands for Underway Replinishment. It can be done for fuel or other supplies. Supplies are dropped on the main deck of the ship and carried in by the crew, in a great big work line. It is done ALL the time.

Olaf

[MADem]

41. I spent thirty years in the Navy

And I think you might want to do a little research on hospital ships. They are civilian manned, they are in standby when in port, and you cannot deploy them without filling them full of meds and docs.

And WHY would you UNREP materials that are more quickly loaded from pierside? Much of that equipment is SPECIALIZED, and not part of the inventory on say, a USS SUPPLY-class ship. The stuff would have to be helo'd to the supply ship to be unrepped. Expensive, waste of time, ten steps when two will do.

Also, UNREPS do not take seconds, they are long evolutions. You have to SLOW DOWN to do them, putting the ship a half day behind schedule even if the Captain puts the hammer down. They are also fraught with tension if you encounter rough weather, and they are expensive in terms of fuel costs because you are not steaming at optimal operating capacity. You UNREP when you have no other options--a pierside load in this case is faster and way more efficient. The materials are put onboard while the crew is rounded up.

[Nordmadr]

61. Well, if you want to be agressive, how about the fact

that this ship is now 5 days behind schedule!!

Half a day slow down and underway is better than still sitting in the fucking port! As far as the expense, bill me...isn't that what my tax dollars are for!!

...and if they can't get a medical ship there quick, what is the fucking excuse for not getting a supply ship there quick, or a combat ship there quick? They could have filled my gunmount with shit and brought it.

You wanna tell me they didn't have anybody on standby? They don't have folks working that can be mustered quick? Bullshit!!

Olaf

[MADem]

64. How can they deploy without an order from the federal government?

What is so hard to understand about that? I know damn well those medical personnel will JUMP when called, and I know the support staff on COMFORT or MERCY, for that matter, would leap through their own assholes to get all of the materials they need loaded ASAP.

But without orders, you cannot do shit. SECDEF should have issued the orders while the wind was still blowing, not days after the city flooded.

WE are talking about a medical staff EXCEEDING ONE THOUSAND...not just a few "folks" to be "mustered quick." It is a huge vessel, you can land a damn chinook on it. It is a thousand bed HOSPITAL, the size of a tanker.

I give up....some people just will not get it. You want to blame someone, blame Chimp, FEMA, and SECDEF, in that order--not the people who are unwrapping Comfort and trying to get her where she needs to be.

[Nordmadr]

72. I want to clarify, I am NOT blaming the people actually

getting these ships ready to get underway. I am simply stating that it could be done quicker, as you pointed out, with the proper leadership. I DO get it. If they don't get there orders, they can't do anything.

Olaf

[sniffa]

43. hi Lib - weLcome to DU

:hi:

[Lerkfish]

19. mmmmmkay...so wouldn't it be all the MORE important to start BEFORE

NOW???!!!!


:mad:

[MADem]

52. The Navy cannot do a thing until the Chimp via SECDEF tells them to move

So that's on the chimp. I've no doubt someone in Defense was talking to the Flag at Bethesda and the General at WRAMC, but at that point, all they could do was start making lists, doing an inventory, cutting requisitions to be submitted once they got the word, and warning people not to go on leave over Labor Day--the standard "stand by to stand by" evolution.

[DemBones DemBones]

2. The USS Comfort is supposed to be there on Sept. 8.

September 8, to help people who've been homeless and mostly without food or water since August 29.

There are no words. . .

[tjdee]

4. Who are they coming to help, because some of them will already be dead.

If they're not, they're throughout Texas. :grr:

[HereSince1628]

8. Well, these people don't believe in biological reality.

Be patient. Sit comfortably, don't eat, and drink polluted water until help arrives.

[libhill]

70. Exactly

I just wonder if we would be witnessing the same atrocity, if these people were white, wealthy, Republicans? I bet not -

[blurp]

7. The mayor should have had food and water in the shelters/dome by saturday

Tell me why a state of emergency gets declared Saturday and the Mayor does nothing to begin supplying shelters.

Hell, he was still debating whether or not to evacuate Sunday morning!

[CottonBear]

18. The Mayor & Gov have done everything in their power-the FEDS are to blame

There were 100,000 households in NO w/ out cars.

You have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.

* cut 40-75% of fema and Corps of Eng funds since 2001 and allowed the developers to destroy the wetlands below NO

[blurp]

21. Everything in their power, my ass!

I followed that storm for at least a week. The National Hurricane center had it threatening NO Friday morning and had NO set by Friday night to make a direct hit. All the computer models by 7pm Friday showed NO to take the full force of the storm.

And what did those two idiots do? Nothing. They were still debating a manditory evacuation Sunday morning.

[Poor Richard Lex]

25. not sure which storm you were watching

the mandatory evacuation started Friday. Thursday they were telling people to leave the city.

[chopper]

45. no

nagin ordered the mandatory evac on sunday.

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWL082705nagin.b7724856.html

[CottonBear]

33. * sent 50% of Natl Guard to Iraq, cut FEMA & defunded levee projects

BUSH has blood on his hands.

The feds should hav mobilized a MASSIVE Natl Guard force on Friday and sent them to NO. THAT'S WHY WE HAVE THE FEDS.

BTW, we have family down there in St. Tammnay parish right now who can only communicate by ham radio or by driving to Baton Rouge to a goddamn payphone. We are worried sick.

[etherealtruth]

24. The Mayor did what he could with the resources he had ...

I am sure he could have done better ... as most things can be done better in retrospect ... but, HE still didn't have the $$$ to do it.

In disasters of this magnitude our localities do NOT have the financial resources ... we must count on the state and FEDERAL governments ... lesson to be learned: If you can't do it yourself and must count on the FED's you can kiss your keester good-bye.

Our federal government appears to be incapable of any task

[MsTryska]

58. Ummm......weren't large parts of NO

under water, without electricity, communications etc, etc?



Did the mayor have soem magical access to dry supplies for people, and ways to get there?

or were those flooded out too.


Don't blame the guy that's int he middle of the disaster trying to make things right, with what few resources he has.



Look at the rest of us, sitting here with all the resources in the world, and no one organized enough to rally a large-scale effort.


Right now we on the outside have more info about what's going on in NO than anyone in NO does.

[blurp]

69. They weren't underwater Friday night

under water, without electricity, communications etc, etc?

Did the mayor have soem magical access to dry supplies for people, and ways to get there?

He had access certainly by Saturday. That dome should have been filling up with water and food Saturday in preperation.

That should have been the plan for years and years.

[CottonBear]

12. He said GET EVERY GREYHOUND IN THE NATION & GET THEIR ASSES HERE.

He is desperate. He said * gets credit only for one thing: he sent a "John Wayne dude-Gen. Honore- who got here and stated cussing and is getting things done."
Kartrina....editor of The Nation is next guest.

I CANNOT FUCKING BELIEVE THAT * SENT FUND TO DEFEND HIS SORRY ASS ON CSAPN TODAY.

[davepc]

28. Maybe if the Mayor had a little John Wayne in him he wouldn't need

the president to send a John Wayne dude to kick some things into action.

I know the mayor has very little to work with, and isn't getting any help, but it seems to me the man is WAY over his head, and woefully unprepared for what happened.

You need help, we all get that, but you gotta fight too. Mayor sounds like he's out of fight. And in a big crisis you cant have a leader who runs out of steam, no matter what the conditions, no matter what the resources.

Leaders LEAD.

[ElectroPrincess]

38. He is leading ... you forget he doesn't have ARMED police at his

disposal. Wow, Rudy G. wouldn't last 5 seconds in New Orleans.

He is a leader dammit! The government has abandoned the people of inner city New Orleans to FIRST die of dehydration. Why else would there NOT be *any* water dropped into that area?

These people need to be held accountable. NO DRINKING WATER is unforgivable and will kill off HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE TODAY ALONE!

[davepc]

44. The man sounded relieved that somebody actually started to give ORDERS

Sorry, that doesn't scream "leadership" to me.


Sorry, but I can't imagine FDR or JFK being happy that somebody else showed up and started telling people what to do.

[txindy]

48. They were presidents, not mayors

And nobody took away their resources or manpower.

[davepc]

56. It's not the position, its the spirit. The mayors spirit is broken.

When you have Leaders who have broken spirits then you have people who are ineffective at doing their job of leading. When things are at their bleakest, leaders are at their strongest. People who impact the world, be it Cindy Sheehan, Malcolm X, or Bill Clinton don't get discouraged, they don't give up, they don't lash out in frustration like that. They hunker down and FIGHT.

The Mayor is not strong right now. He's depressed, and angry, and frustrated, and broken. The crisis broke him. He knows it. Thats why he was relived when the General showed up and took the burden off his shoulders somewhat.

I don't fault the man, but I'm not going to hold him up as somebody as I want in charge when things go wrong.

[txindy]

63. Great. You do that.

Hold him up as a man stripped of power and resources and then call him a failure for having nobody to lead and nothing to call on to aid his people. You go right ahead. :eyes: That'll accomplish a whole lot.

Try pointing out the complete failure of the federal government to use the manpower and resources they stripped from the states to actually aid those states when needed. Try pointing out that greed took precedence over planning and that centralized control DOES NOT WORK. Try that.

[txindy]

46. Leaders lead when they have people to lead

Who exactly is the mayor supposed to kick into action? Normally he'd have the NG to direct, but that was taken out of his hands. Other resources are now under the Dept. of Homeland 'Security'. Makes it hard to lead when you've been isolated and stripped of connections and resources.

[Cato1]

16. Even though I would...

...like to pin the impending doom of New Orleans on Bush, I can't help being disgusted when looking at the total incompetence of Louisiana and New Orleans officials. Blanco especially is totally out her league. If one thing is for sure, LA won't have Democratic governor next time around. New Orleans might not even get another mayor.

[CottonBear]

23. You must not be a Democrat - Blanco & Nagin are heroic. * is to blame

The Gov, Mayor, Senators and Reps have been BGEGGING * not to further cut and to refund the Corps of Eng and FEMA and to stop destroying wetlands.

[davepc]

31. Exasperation is not heroism.

[CottonBear]

37. Mayor Nagin is at the convention center helping people? Where are you?

We have family down there out of contact w/ the world, no electricity or phone or any other utilities - St. Tammnay Parish is devastated. Some of their homes are gone and lives have been ruined.

We have the Nat'l Guard for a reason and * has cut Army Corps of Engineers funding, FEMA funding and allowed wetlands destruction.

Bush has blood on his hands.

[davepc]

50. All the reason NO needs a fighter, not a man crying out in frustration

I'm not inspired by the man who was happy when Bush's "John Wayne" General showed up and actually started to get things done.

If the General had all this magic authority to create action, why didn't the mayor posses that in the days leading up to, and the moments right after the storm?

Incompetence in planning and execution may start with Bush, but it sure doesn't end with him either.

[Lerkfish]

55. neither is criminal dereliction of duty

sorry, not gonna play "lets let Bush and FEMA and Homeland Security off the hook so we can blame others" game.

go play in someone else's sandbox.


your psyops are not welcome here.

[davepc]

59. Please highlight where I said Bush and FEMA are "off the hook".

And if you feel my posts are in violation of DU rules, feel free to use the "Alert" button.

[Lerkfish]

66. sorry, misdirected post.

was aiming at another posetr who was, just your wording set off my next thought.
apologis.

[Don Claybrook]

32. Listen carefully, Cato

I'll join right in with you blasting the democratic governor of Louisiana for being next to useless. I don't agree with you about the mayor, but that doesn't matter, here's what does...

Don't even think about coming on this board and defending George W Bush. You apparently have no real understanding that people here and in the rest of the country are ready to rip some heads off over this one. Normally, right wing interlopers are kind of fun to toy with before they're dispatched. Not now. Not this time. Go ahead and defend this piece of garbage and miserable excuse for a human being. Go ahead and use right wing talking points while people die in agony right this minute, while people watch their babies die. I will personally come at you like a motherfucking freight train. Anyone who would try to score political points off the death caused by this president.......nevermind about that.

You don't seem to understand the level of anger. You don't want to find out the hard way. Take very good care with what you say here.

[chopper]

40. uh

he's not defending bush.

truth is, NO's mayor took his sweet time in ordering an evac. the city shoulda been evacuated saturday.

sunday rolls around, and they order the evacuation and split. no infrastructure to help the poor and vehicle-less get out, nuthin.

"get outta the city. see you later!"
"but how, i got no car!"
"you got legs, doncha?"

this has been an utter c0ck-up on all levels of government, from local to federal.

i mean, why the hell wasn't the evacuation ordered in time? why the hell wasn't the NG at the ready on sunday? DHS looks at a cat 5 aiming right at NO and says "don't worry, they won't need our help for at least a few days"?? how hard is it to preemptively load up some choppers or a c130 with some MREs and water for any refugees?? why the hell are people still without food and water 4 days after the levees broke and flooded the city? why the hell do i even have to ask these kinds of questions?

this is america for christ's sake.

my god, i'm so livid right now.

[ElectroPrincess]

47. It wouldn't NOT have mattered ...

Bullshit! Stop blaming the NO's mayor. He's one of the few leaders of integrity right now.

Two of my immediate family have their houses underwater right now. *I KNOW* that the people left there now, would have had to have a massive humanitarian effort to evacuate them, i.e., they're the poor, elderly and, in general, disenfranchised people. No wonder FEMA didn't know about them,i.e., they are the powerless underclasses.

Don't blame the Mayor for his people being poor and within the inner city. That is the Bush Administrations job, i.e., to blame everyone EXCEPT themselves.

Yeah, those damn poor people couldn't hire a limo or bus to take them out? Absurd! :puke:

[chopper]

51. sorry

but i don't make exceptions for screw ups because you're a dem. yeah, nagin's pissed right now and he's got a good reason, but he ordered the evacuation way too late.

i don't blame him for his population being poor and in the city (where the hell did you get that, anyway?).

i blame him for taking his sweet time in getting an evacuation ordered.

and i blame FEMA and the feds for being totally clueless and sitting on their hands for days. christ, the head of FEMA was on TV being interviewed and he didn't even know about the situation at the convention center. WTF? this guy is running the evacuation???

Yeah, those damn poor people couldn't hire a limo or bus to take them out? Absurd!

WTF? i think maybe you should re-read my post.

[CottonBear]

73. You're time here at DU may be short so listen up:

FEMA and the Homeland Security Dept. and the Nat'l Guard are responsible for not evacuating the populace of the city and the surrounding areas and the Feds are to blame for doing nothing for days and allowing people to die waiting for help.

Did I mention that Bush cut the FEMA and Army Corps of Engineers by over 50% over the last 5 years. Did I mention he repealed laws that protected the wetlands south of NOLA.

Fuck Bush.

[chopper]

76. why?

"You're time here at DU may be short so listen up:"

i've been here for years. i would hope that i'm not banned from this site for criticizing a democrat for screwing something up.

as i said before, i blame the administration and FEMA for sitting on their hands. i blame a lot of people for this major screw-up. i just happen to throw some of that blame at a dem.

sorry. i guess i should leave, then.

[BeachBuckeye]

67. And the horse you rode in on!!!!

What should Blanco and the Mayor have done differently? They did not have the resources available for this kind of disaster. This is a Federal problem.

[xultar]

26. I heard that it was leaving on Tueaday. IT HASN'T LEFT YET!!!!!

[Misunderestimator]

27. No other conclusion to draw now... they want them to die.

[ScreamingMeemie]

30. Sadly....so sadly...true.

:cry: I cannot believe that this is modern day America MisU.

[Misunderestimator]

42. And the asshole in chief is lying about it all right this minute...

pretending that everything is improving and that they have control of the situation. :wtf:

And now he says "The results are not acceptable." Huh? Results of your leadership and policies?

:grr:

[ScreamingMeemie]

49. " I am not a Crook!! I'm a Murderer!"

:cry: I am all the more ready for Sept 24.

[chopper]

35. 3 days

under good conditions. these people have been sitting on their roofs in 90+ degree weather for 4 days now. i'm surprised any of them are still alive.

[ElectroPrincess]

36. WHY can't they at least make numerous WATER drops!?!

These people are *very close* to dehydration. That will kill you a lot quicker than starvation.

Where's the FRESH DRINKING WATER for the people of New Orleans!!!

[markus]

54. Link or city please!

I want this up on wetbankguide.blogspot.com right away, but I need a citation. If it's a broadcast, some corrobaration would help immensely. Thanks. Post here or [e-mail]

Thanx.

[Karmadillo]

57. And we're sending millions of tons of ships! Soon!

Kind of.

[MADem]

65. Well, FEMA ordered Bataan away from NOLA

They were there right off the coast flying helos off the flight deck doing rescue and food and water drops to the dome, and running LCACs and LCUs into the city right after the wind stopped.

But FEMA, yesterday, sent them to Mississippi...

[matt819]

68. How long did it take ships to get to the tsunami area? (nt)

[Imagevision]

74. need to recommend this up!!

[Imagevision]

75. Where are these ships coming from? - Iraq??

http://downingstreetmemo.com/

[Moderator]

78. locking

flamewar