My post about racism last night was wrong.

[Redstone]

I had a talk with Mrs R. about it, and she convinced me. Even though we're both only half white, I've never had a problem because of it. She did when she was young, so that gives her a better perspective than I have, and I have to agree with her.

Although we both still think that, although there may very well be an element of racism in this whole disgraceful mess, the majority of the problem is criminally negligent incompetence. Along with the fact that the people at the top of our government are such heartless monsters that they actually withheld that convoy until this morning, letting even more people die, just so bushyboy could descend from the clouds in a (very poorly) staged attempt to make himself look like The Savior Of New Orleans--which may be the single most despicable thing I've EVER seen, and I've seen some truly dreadful things.

I also posted in anger, which I should not have done. I was incensed by an earlier post that blatantly questioned the right of a woman and a small boy to be in a shelter, because they were white. I was also angry because that post seemed to indicate a racist preference on the part of the "rescuers" on the scene, which I still will never believe. If there's that element of racism, it's at the top, not among the people on the front lines.

The fact that that post was wrong doesn't make mine any less wrong, though. I'll count to ten before posting next time.

Redstone

[TerdlowSmedley]

1. You're a big man, Redstone.

[enlightenment]

2. A thoughtful re-post, Redstone.

I think we're all reaching critical mass, and it's becoming increasingly more difficult to offer thoughtful, objective commentary.
I didn't read your original post, but I am impressed with your willingness to take the high road and offer a retraction of your earlier comments.
Kudos -- and hang in there.

[Horse with no Name]

3. I'm only guessing that the pic you were pissed at was the one

I posted.
However, I was referring to all the people in the picture--not the child.
There wasn't ONE black person in the picture.
I understand that everyone needs a place to stay...my point was, that on Wednesday morning...there wasn't a black person to be seen in the shelter eating breakfast in clean, dry clothes while all those people are in the Superdome dying.
That was the ONLY point I tried to convey, and while I will apologize for maybe not making myself clear, I won't apologize for the message I wanted to convey. This is ALL about racism.
I wasn't angry that these people had food and shelter--I was angry because the other's didn't.

[Redstone]

22. That picture was a close-up; you couldn't SEE any other

people in the shelter.

And, furthermore, you can't say that you don't have a problem with a white KID being in a shelter, but that you DO have a problem with his mother being in shelter.

That's not right.

I'm not looking to get into an argument with you here, and you've apologized, but your post was just as wrong as mine was. How the HELL do you know that those people got into that shelter because they were white, or that black people were passed up so they could get in there?

As I've mentioned, my wife and I are half white. that means that neither of os like ANY kind of racism, whether it's directed against people like our darker halves, or people like our lighter halves.

It's not fair either way.

Redstone

[Horse with no Name]

29. If you had looked past the closeup

You would have seen them. There were several other white people in the background. Please understand, I don't blame this on the victims. They deserve to be there. I'm incensed that the black people basically "had to step to the back of the bus" in New Orleans.
Also, that wasn't the child's mother--it was his grandmother (not that it matters I suppose) but no, I don't have a problem at all with any of them being there. I'm glad they are safe.
I've just had a hard time this week seeing how overt the racism is and I think that the photo just brought it to the surface.
I think this week has just brought such strong feelings to the surface that anything and everything might set someone off
The way the threads are moving and with the "my posts" features being turned off--I am sorry I couldn't have seen your anger and diffused it there. Threads are just disappearing never to be seen again.
But--it is impossible for me to see the picture through your eyes and likewise impossible for you to see it through mine.
So again, I apologize. I think you misunderstood my intention.

[Redstone]

35. We all got too cranked up at one point or another. Hard not to,

when you're witnessing such monstrous indifference toward a country's citizens displayed by its supposed "leaders."

And they ARE monsters; there's no other word. I do honestly believe that they'd have been just as happy to let white, or red, or yellow people die so that they could put together that unutterably lame "coincidence" of the convoy and bushyboy's arrival.

But I will concede that there are damn good reasons why people jump on the racism angle; they've certainly proven themselves to be astonishingly unconcerned about killing Brown People in Iraq - which is something I bet you've seen me note here more than once.

And I have one other problem, which is my problem alone: If you noticed what I said about my ethnic makeup and my wife's, you might understand that I have a kind of built-in lack of understanding how anyone can be racist - toward blacks, whites, or anyone else. I'll admit to a problem with comprehension, because I just cannot "put myself in their place" and figure out how people can be that way. I just can't.

Here's a virtual handshake. Let's let you and me have misunderstood one another, discussed it, come to an understanding, no hard feelings and all that, and move on to the important stuff, like tearing strips off trolls, freepers, and other assorted Republican jerkoffs.

Deal?

Redstone

On edit: I meant to type "ethnic makeup," not "ethic makeup." I'm not sure what "ethic makeup" would be...would it make you look more honest than you really are?

[Horse with no Name]

36. Fuck the virtual handshake

:hug:
I understand what you are saying. I don't have your perspective--I'm a white middle aged woman.:shrug:

[Redstone]

40. Done and done.

You don't need to have the perspective; the fact that you have the understanding is more important, and more than enough.

Redstone

[omega minimo]

4. You're saying your post was wrong but you still think what you posted?

Would you mind clarifying? I've read this twice and I'm not sure what you are saying, aside from not posting in anger....

[Redstone]

21. I'm saying that what I posted was wrong, but that I don't think the

element of racism is as strong as some people think. I truly believe that it was only one element in the fiasco, and that the major part was sheer incompetence. And that there was, and I'll stick with this opinion, no racism at all among the front-line rescuers.

Better? If not, feel free to ask again. As long as you keep asking politely like that, I'll keep explaining until you feel I've explained it well enough.

Redstone

[mondo joe]

30. Thanks Redstone. For what it's worth you perfectly articulated my own

opinion.

[knowbody0]

5. Redstone

man oh man we all wish to not believe it to be true. we are not white and combat prejudice here by being happy. you sound like you are too. we do not dwell on it, but it is a fact of our lives. there are good people and i believe they out number the bad guys
peace and love

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

6. It is both incompetence, and racism.

[Ms. Clio]

15. Incompetence, racism, and classism --- displayed the worst of the U.S.

The absolute worst, the bottom, every nasty fiber of our history.

[AnnInLa]

7. Your thoughtful, honest repost is a breath of fresh air around here

Alot of us will be rethinking alot of things in the light of this disaster, but we probably will not be brave enough to post it as you did. Bravo to you.

[David Dunham]

9. I think it's racist; help white Repug areas first, before black Dem areas

Bush and Rove have a political strategy on how to give out aid -- white Republican areas first and foremost get aid, only later do you weakly aid Democratic areas like New Orleans, which also happen to have a lot of African-Americans in them

[AnnInLa]

11. I didn't say I didn't think it was racist...I said everyone has to make up

his/her own mind about that, and if Redstone changed his mind, that's his right. More people should do some hard thinking about alot of things now.

[David Dunham]

13. I don't think any comments here are racist; Bush/Rove are racists

[omega minimo]

16. He didn't say he changed his mind

"Although we both still think that, although there may very well be an element of racism in this whole disgraceful mess, the majority of the problem is criminally negligent incompetence."

Anyone want to tell me what they think has been "retracted" here?

:applause:

[AnnInLa]

23. whatever

[omega minimo]

27. May I quote you on that?

Thanks Redstone for.....whatEVER.

:bounce:

[Redstone]

25. See #21.

Redstone

[Don Claybrook]

8. Thanks for saying that

I think your statement says a lot about your character.

[enigami]

10. I saw your post

You were right

[Redstone]

26. Thank you, my friend. I was partially right, but mostly wrong,

and certainly didn't state my case very well. As you know, I'm prone to do that now and again.

Redstoen

[KerryOn]

12. I hold people like you in high regard...

... not many people will admit when they are wrong. (If only Bush would.)

>>"Along with the fact that the people at the top of our government are such heartless monsters that they actually withheld that convoy until this morning, letting even more people die, just so bushyboy could descend from the clouds in a (very poorly)"<

Well said. Last night I was talking with my wife and I jokingly said: "I would not put it past Bush to with hold supplies and relief, until he arrives." It's scary that I'm beginning to predict his actions. Very scary.

[Frances]

14. I am very happy that you have never personally experienced

racism.

But I was at an exercise class at a senior center in northern California today and several people were definitely taking what I consider a racist attitude. They focused on the "looting." When I said that people had to get stuff in order to survive, two or three people immediately mentioned the riots in Watts. They honestly believe that black people just like to riot.

Another person had no sympathy for anyone left in New Orleans. She just ignored my comment that 100,000 people in New Orleans had no car. She dismissed the fact that some people were in hospitals.

Several people brought up the fact that black people were shooting at the helicopters (I don't think that's true, but I hadn't researched that assertion.)

I would say that the majority of these white lower middle class and middle class white senior citizens were convinced that white people would never behave the way black people behaved in New Orleans.

It's sad but the Repubs would abandon these older folks, despite their white skins, in a minute should we have an earthquake here. I can hear it now, "Why did you choose to live in earthquake country?"

[Ms. Clio]

18. Tell those assholes the FAA says no shots were ever fired

And I swear to god I hope they go through something remotely like NOLA someday.

[Frances]

31. Thanks for the info from the FAA

I am absolutely convinced that the people in New Orleans behaved in exactly the way people of any other race or in any other nation would have behaved.

I tried my best to keep my cool and argue rationally because I think I can be more effective that way. I am new to this area and it is understandable that these people need to get to know me before they trust me. I can't afford to come off looking like a hothead.

I think that people tend to get comfortable with their prejudices and the fact that I was challenging them in what I hope is a reasonable way is a good thing in my opinion.

By the way, one woman did say that the government didn't do enough.

There may have been a couple of other people who were not Bushbots. It's interesting to me that the senior center I used to go to about an hour away has many more anti-Bush people than this center. I think the seniors at the other center were better educated and had held jobs that required more thoughtfulness than the seniors here. Ignorance and superstition and greed are Bush's best friends.

[Ms. Clio]

34. Yes, of course they behaved exactly like anyone else under the

circumstances.

It would NEVER have gotten so out of control if the proper preparations had been made, the evacuations had been made before the storm hit, and the help sent in much much much EARLIER.

I do think it's true that the less-educated a person is, the more likely they are to be a Bush-bot, although certainly not always, since I know some wealthy white rightwing academics. But on average, the better-informed a person is (no Fox News), the less likely they are to support that foul and disgusting piece of crap in our White House.

I know you can't call your new acquaintances assholes, but some of them sure sound like it. :)

There's a link somewhere in GD today to the FAA story.

[Frances]

39. I do get really angry at Bush supporters

but I think some of these people are just ignorant.

I was so upset about NO 2 days ago that I walked up to the driver of a car with a Bush sticker and engaged him in coversation. I was too upset to really do a good job of persuasion, but looking back, I find it interesting that he was more defensive than aggressive the way Repubs usually are.

I find it amazing that so many lower middle class and working class people bought into the Repub propaganda because their economic interests are being eroded terribly. I also find it interesting that academics are Bush supporters because all educated people are very, very vulnerable when fundamentalists are in charge.

[Ms. Clio]

41. Yes, they just don't know -- if they were exposed to the information

they could easily change their minds.

I know just what you mean about engaging people in conversation! I went to the grocery store yesterday and as I walked through the cool clean aisles and brought home food for myself and my pets I couldn't even imagine the desperate scramble to find the bare essentials of life in all those "looted" supermarkets and convenience stores... Produce girl said hi and I started talking to her -- forget what she said but I said, at least not as bad as in New Orleans. We chatted for a while, I talked about how awful it was, I don't think she knew how bad it was. Then we talked about gas prices and minimum wage and I told her how I remembered gas rationing when I was a little kid -- she's a nineteen-year-old looking shocked at the thought.

Saw my neighbor outside, chatted with her -- she works full-time and goes to school, so she wasn't really up on the news either. I hope she went in and at least turned on the television.

As I left the parking lot some van pulled in with a gazillion magnets and Power of Pride stickers and a handwritten "Jesus Died for You" sign. I wanted to ask who the people of NO were dying for, but he was a disabled vet with a lift on the back, and really didn't deserve to be a target. Yesterday I was too angry to even try to talk to him, though.

Sorry to babble on.

I should quickly add that I only know a small handful of Bushbot academics, and I really wonder what they are thinking right about now--they are very bright people and surely must be seeing some of the light.

You make such an interesting point about fundamentalists--I think they don't see it that way, I guess. I'm not sure what they think in depth because I don't see them very often.

[Frances]

42. I like your ramblings

If you remember gas rationing, then you remember FDR and how the Repubs were against social security, minimum wage laws, etc. Now the Repubs are trying to destroy social security through "reform."

Bush and his group want the U.S. to be like it was before FDR with a small super rich group and a large labor force with no rights so they can be easily exploited. Too many people today don't realize what is happening to our labor force.

I do know quite a few fundamentalists. Many turned to religion because they were not making it in society. They needed structure in their lives and they needed to feel that they had some status.

In spite of Jesus' teachings, these Christians need someone to look down on, and for many, their status comes at the expense of a group they perceive to be lower than themselves. I think that most fundy groups have chosen gays to be the ones to be looked down on.

The fundy churches are filled with people who don't understand science and are happy to accept what their preachers tell them "on faith." They say that "Bush is a man of faith," and that excuses his ignorance and his incompetence because the fundies are not judging Bush based on facts and reason but on his profession of faith.

Of course, those of us who like to use our brains are at a disadvantage. The only way to challenge these people is to say that Bush does not follow Jesus' teachings and I don't think many of us are comfortable in attacking religious beliefs because we have been taught to separate church and state and to respect religious differences.

[Ms. Clio]

47. I was thinking of the 70s -- remember odd/even gas days?

Mabye not quite rationing but the 19 yo. was clearly stunned by even that much. :D

I think you are dead on about why people need that type of religious/ideological belief, and its consequences. Before the election I saw a lady driving this beat-up-piece of crap car with one of those stupid male sign-female sign = marriage bumper stickers (I'm not describing it properly, but perhaps you know what I mean -- clearly anti-gay). And you want to ask, just what did a gay person ever do to you personally, for crying out loud?

They've had a lot of faith in him, exactly. I know someone who even says that, mostly just to annoy me: "I believe in my country and I believe in my President."

Maybe, just maybe the tide will be turning now. I read the most fascinating piece at Arts and Letter Daily about three years ago--a psychologist discussing how people react once they find out they've been monstrously lied to and swindled. They don't forgive and they don't forget.

Yeah, I'm not even going there when it comes to religion.

I really enjoy your thoughts on this stuff, too :)

[Frances]

52. You are young!

I do remember odd and even days and waiting in long lines in Rockville MD to get gas. Those lines hurt Carter a lot. I hope the high gas prices hurt Ehrlich (governor of Maryland) as well as Bush.

I don't remember gas rationing in World War II but my husband does. People expected to make sacrifices during that war. I think they trusted FDR's leadership. I wish the ghosts of FDR, Lincoln, and Washington would throw Bush out of the White House.

With that thought, I'll sign off for tonight.

[Ms. Clio]

53. That would be a mighty trio! Looks like we have to do it instead

Good night.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

19. Didn't they see the white elderly waiting in wheelchairs at the

convention center? :eyes:

[Ms. Clio]

20. The ones being cared for and supported by all those "looters?"

[JanMichael]

38. Good example of White people rioting is Moscow after WWI.

It was a lawless city consumed by chaos, rape, robberies and murder.

All White folks doing it too. All White folks killing smashing and destroying the place.

[Roy]

43. Actually, your repub friends are probably right...

when they say they are convinced that white people would never behave the way black people behaved in New Orleans.

Mainly because white will never be left in a situation similar to the black people in New Orleans.

I will also venture to say, no matter what their economic status.

I believe that if those folks were 67% white or whatever the ratio, the response would have still been starkly different.

I may be wrong, but it will have to be shown to me in real time.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

17. I think it was racism and prejudice against the Have Nots...

I think, if the Convention People were white and well-off there is no way in hell they would have been left there, some to die. It sickens me

[Bluerthanblue]

24. you are a man who

I admire Redstone.- and i can understand your perspective. I myself am a low income mother, sickeningly white(scots-irish) with one son who is as pale as me, and a younger son who is a beautiful rich chesnut brown. I've watched the predjuce, i've lived the predjuce- my heart has been broken to see people i believed were ...'good'... reveal an awful side of themselves that ... ended any relationship i might have cared about.

As for posting in anger- we all do that- and your point about the white woman is a valid one- as is the horrible sorrow that i've seen on the faces of black rescue workers who just can't face the pain. I agree with you, that the VAST majority of helpers saw only sisters and brothers little ones and grammies and poppa's that needed help. But the
truth that being black, and especially a young black male in america is a mountain that no one should have to climb just to stand on equal ground with a similar 'white' male- I've seen it with my sons-

and i HATE it. and i salute the rapper who spoke the truth tonite, even when no one wanted to hear it- he's 100% right on.

i wish you peace and comfort- i watched the fundraiser with my 11yr old son sitting on my lap (he's growin up so fast) and sobbed into the crook of his beautiful neck, as listened to Aaron Neville sing Amazing Grace... and i haven't stoped crying YET.

The people hurting in the gulf are my family, they are us- and being so far away, so limited in means, the pittiance we've been able to give, and the things we are going to sell to turn into money is not enough.... not nearly enough.

blu

[ultraist]

28. It's very much about racism

But the truth that being black, and especially a young black male in america is a mountain that no one should have to climb just to stand on equal ground with a similar 'white' male- I've seen it with my sons-

:hug:

I have seen it with my son too and it's heartbreaking. As Jesse Jackson said, "we have a very high tolerance of pain for Blacks." Our threshold for tolerating cruelty toward Blacks is WAY TOO HIGH in our society.

If those folks in NOLA had been white, things would have been very different, before and after the hurricane.

[Bluerthanblue]

33. and when we call it out- we have a chance of

changing it-
Denial is the enemy- in so many ways of so many ills.- We need to face the truth, no matter how uncomfortable, difficult, and wounding as it is- pain is a 'friend'- because it shows us places that need ATTENTION.- It must change- for the sake of everyone-

And you are right on. but my god, i hope with everything in me this backfires in all the racist, elitist selfish faces that allowed this.

Peace to you Ultraist-
Blu :-)

(My son and i thought the little fella with the sponge-bob square pants should be the next president, i laughed through my tears watching him- and how elequently and beautifully he spoke his truth for all the world to hear- did you see him??? my son said, "i want to get Bub's dumptruck fill it up with jugs of water, food, and clothes and keep driving back and forth- " his heart is so big- and i love that. (we're several thousand miles away, and the truck is over 20yrs old) but we will be continuing to help- that much we promised each other.

[ultraist]

45. Beautifully said! n/t

Thank you.

[ismnotwasm]

32. I spoke with a black friend

And he says if you are poor, black or uneducated you are fucked if you are from around down there. So if you are all three, you are triple fucked. We are now seeing pictures and hearing stories of folks helping folks, regardless of color, which we knew was going on all along. But our government is an institutionalized racist body. Individuals may not be. But racism is inherent in our very infrastructure. Very difficult to spot sometimes. Very hard to acknowledge in ourselves, no matter what our background. And we all need to work together to recognize it, challenge it, and eliminate it. We have an opportunity right here and right now. It's part of the meaning of my user name. it's racISM not racWASM. Peace to all

[Redstone]

37. Thank you, I had wondered about your screen name. However,

although your friend is absolutely correct, you don't necessarily have to have all three of those qualities to be "fucked if you are from down around there."

You can be just as equally fucked if you're poor, white, and uneducated, if you happen to be from "down around" say, the coal country in Kentucky or West Virginia. Or, for that matter, Newfoundland.

Poverty and lack of education are equal-opportunity meat-grinders of lives, after all.

And your statement about "racism being inherent in our very infrastructure" is something that I absolutely, positively agree with. It's there, all right.

Redstone

[ultraist]

44. Hmmm...

"equally fucked if you're poor, white, and uneducated" Therein lies a statement that denies racism exists.

Did you really mean to say that? Consider what a wealthy, educated Black person endures compared to a wealthy, educated white person. Do you think they are on equal ground in our society? Do you think that being wealthy and educated insulates Blacks from discrimination?

I would strongly recommend reading some of Dr. Cornell West's work.

Peace.

[Redstone]

56. No denial on my part.

Do you know the racial makeup of my family?

If you paid attention to that, you'd understand why I'm kind of evenhanded in this.

Redstone

[markus]

46. Redstone: Please read this

St. Bernard Abandoned To It's Fate
http://wetbankguide.blogspot.com/2005/09/st-bernard-parish-abandoned-to-its.html

More here at http://wetbankguide.blogspot.com

[ultraist]

48. 67% of NOLA is Black.

FACT: The large majority of those left behind in NOLA are Black.

FACT: 24% of Blacks are in poverty while only 8% of whites are in poverty, nationwide. Why?

Does racism exist in our society? If so, how could it magically disappear for the last five days?

Was it merely a coincidence that nearly 90% of those who were left to die are Black?

[markus]

49. I spent the first 30 years of my life in NOLA

and only left because of the oil price crash.

I don't need a lecture on the facts.

Did you actually read my blog post, or the very last post on my blog?

I didn't think so.

Thanks for sharing.

[ultraist]

54. Honestly, no, I didn't read it in it's entirety.

Because I got the feeling from the jump, that it was an exception to the rule argument.

The fact that some whites were left behind, doesn't excuse away the fact that nearly all of those left behind to die, are Black.

[bullwinkle428]

50. The racism associated with this event extends well beyond

New Orleans - please read this story about Bond, MS:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.the.forgotten.ap/index.html

[Catherine Vincent]

51. Alright! Your wife convinced you that you were wrong.

That's what I'm talking about! :-)

[Just Me]

55. Well, the oppression captures minorities but it is economic,...

,...and captures all of us. I am ashamed at the inequality being revealed to the whole world,...but, I have known of that discrepancy for quite some time,...having been subjected to it, myself.

[Sugarbleus]

57. Well done Redstone...our friend..

I didn't see your post but I get the gist. I too think that at the top of the problem is SHEER INCOMPETENCE. Under that rung is CLASSISM (there were poor and/or disabled elderly white people among the victims in NOLA--tourists were stranded too), then some racism get's mixed in for the final blow.

I am not of African decent. I was married to and spent a decade living among Black Americans (who happened to be from that area of the south no less!). I cannot say I know anything about being black but I do have a new understanding of the heritage and struggles AND their point of view about White Amercia today.

I am MUCH more....ACUTELY aware of the subtlties of racism. It can be an almost overlooked--passive/aggressive insidiousness. Most unfortunate is how we human beings STILL ASSUME things about those who are different from us.

Whatever we want to say about the disaster in NOLA (and MS) one thing is for sure; it has been a HUMANITARIAN CRISIS OF EPIC PROPORTIONS and it is a SHAME AND A SCANDAL for this country!

I'm ASHAMED and I'm OUTRAGED TO THIS DAY. Heads should ROLL (starting with Bush)!!

~~Peace~~

[BronxBoy]

58. I appreciate that

I really went off on you the other night in a manner which I generally don't do. It was just that as I was reading your post, I was watching these heart renching pictures of suffering Black folks. Then the camera showed a couple of kid who looked chillingy like my grandaughter and I just lost it.

I still have some disagreements with you regarding this. Bushco is definetely a racist operation. I think most of the first responders are just trying to do their jobs. Although the fact that they tolerated a bunch of rich doctors being put on busses ahead of people who were living in some of the most deplorable conditions imaginable makes me give pause to that.

Anyway, I too will count to 10 next time.

[G_j]

59. thanks for that, I think it is an important discussion, so

I'm not sorry your thread was a catalyst.
I think it is extremely valuable that this tragedy has people discussing race and poverty. IMO, it's about time.

peace

[Lost4words]

60. I have done the same thing including the mia culpa.

people of true character find no discrase in admitting an error.

you already would make a better leader of our country than the little sissy crap-ass *.