Someone just told me that Bush could not have taken over

[Marr]

rescue or even evacuation efforts from state and local governments in New Orleans, and that the blame there lies with the governor and the mayor. He said that it was their fault for not evacuating the population. He also says it's their fault for not having an evacuation PLAN.

Now- I'm aware of the Lousiana governor's request for Federal assistance on Saturday, so what's the deal? Wouldn't that request have necessetated a federal effort to evacuate the population?

[annabanana]

1. that';s crap...FEMA was put under dhs and can be mobilized

nationwide only by feds..

[Marr]

12. That's what I thought. If FEMA was involved, the feds were

in charge- or at least had access. Correct?

[aquart]

2. Flatly untrue. Homeland Security has the mission. Not the locals.

[Gabi Hayes]

3. SOMEbody? how convenient

you might want to read some of the threads here before you put up such speculative fiction

[Marr]

6. Thank you for the rude suggestion.

Fuck you very much. I'm asking a question- if you don't want to help, go away. But I can do without the "you're a freeper" shit, thanks.

[w13rd0]

13. He didn't call you a freeper...

...he said that your "somebody said" has been answered time and again in threads prior, and that you could have saved yourself the flame by looking around a little.

[Marr]

15. Please- the insinuation was pretty obvious.

[Gabi Hayes]

27. please, show me one post here that buys what you're selling

if you have something of substance to offer, by all means, feel free

til then, your offerings here are the only representations I've witnessed, and they consist of one unsuppported, easily disproved allegation, and a VERY hostile response to a legitimate (while admittedly pointed questioning of the usefulness of your unsourced supposition, the kind of which is generally frowned upon for obvious reasons)

[Gabi Hayes]

16. protesting a bit harshly, are we? hows come you single me out, friend?

it would seem that I'm not alone in buying your little story

exactly WHO told you that CandB coldfart?

and why are you so rude?

you need to learn a little emily post during your brief stay

[Marr]

21. Oh- go away.

You are being an ass.

[Gabi Hayes]

32. you'd be funny if you weren't so obvious

do you see even one response here that gives any credence at all to what you said?

who's your source?

answer that and I'll be all nice and welcoming

otherwise...YOU go away

even if you're "progressive," you're not winning too many friends around here, with your very personal attacks

friend

[Marr]

42. I believe there's a rule against this- thanks.

If you want to know, I've been posting on and reading this forum for two or three years. My old name was Stirk, but a computer crash left me without a login or password. Look me up.

You know- I'd heard alot of newbies complain about the kind of shit you're doing here- but this is the first time I ever got to experience it first hand. Congratulations.

[Gabi Hayes]

51. a rule against what....calling people names.....saying things like

"F you very much?"

gee, who'd do something like that?

lighten up, Francis

start a stupid thread, expect a little grief

grow another layer of skin

now skedaddle

nuff time wasted on this silliness


time to re-primer the jeep

[Marr]

52. You know, apologizing would've shown some character.

Here's a tip though- in the future, if you're faced with the option of being a paranoid jerk or just keeping your mouth shut- try keeping your mouth shut. See how that works.

[Gabi Hayes]

55. apologize for what, exactly?

you're something else

why don't YOU apologize for starting a lame thread, then becoming increasingly, insultingly personal?

you sure sound a lot like Bill OReilly, with your shut up shut up sillines



btw

welcome to DU

now, give it a rest

[Tace]

4. Baffle Them With Bullshit

[madmax]

9. Razzle Dazzle 'em

You're post reminded me of 'Chicago'.

[Dogmudgeon]

5. That someone is a liar

FEMA is the coordinating authority for all issues of disaster response, mitigation, and relief. All evacuations and evacuee housing issues are handled by FEMA. It is a matter of public law.

--p!

[Erika]

7. Flooding by navigable waters is under federal jurisdiction

FEMA advised the state all would be fine. They lied.

[w13rd0]

8. Complete bullshit...

...the reason for the delay: Bush wanted a photo op, and wanted it to look like he arrived with the cavalry. He let people suffer and die so he could score some political points. Here's hoping it bites him in the ass, HARD...

[valerief]

10. and if Bush sent in the Nat'l Guard withouth Gov, Mayor, Alderman

approval would result in what?????

Put on your thinking cap. Homeland Security failed. Homeland Insecurity won.

[w13rd0]

53. So are you trying to tell us if a nuke hit Chicago...

...Bush would call up the Alderman for approval on a response?


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Man, the DESPERATION to cover this buffoons ass is positively ASTONISHING. What does covering for Bush actually gain you people? Oh yeah, a "tax cut" and the promise of a theocracy even the Taliban would envy. What-the-fuck-ever...

[tom_paine]

11. Yes, that is the Bushevik Pravda for the day.

Expect to hear it repeated over and over and over and over and over and over.

[BigBearJohn]

14. And now we know what the REPIGS are going to hit us with.

[SammyWinstonJack]

44. They've already started with that sorry ass excuse.

I am not surprised by it. Deflect the blame, it's their MO. IF these despicable MONSTERS get away with what they have done, I will lose it! WE KNOW WHAT THEY DID AND DID NOT DO! bush likes to remind us CONSTANTLY of Sept. 11th AS IF WE COULD OR WOULD EVER FORGET! Well I got news for you bush, you Murderer! WE WILL NEVER FORGET HOW YOU ALLOWED OUR FELLOW AMERICANS TO LANGUISH WHILE YOU PLAYED AT BEING (p)Resident. OH NO! WE WILL NEVER FORGET! :grr:

[StClone]

17. Yeah and he can invade Iraq but not aid NO

Feed the seeds of doubt and the sin of spin to hide Chimp's latest colossal failure.

[killbotfactory]

18. Why does he get any credit for 9/11?

For not losing his mud when he visted the rubble?

[mzmolly]

19. Somebody? Was his name Rush Limbaugh?

:eyes:

[Marr]

23. No. Another forum.

I've been having an argument with several people on another forum, and I've noticed these points being brought up by all of them today.

[magellan]

20. Yes -- Read this! FEMA's Emergency Response - Aug 27, 2005

Once a state of emergency had been declared, it was FEMA's responsibility to assist in the evacuations. See Emergency Aid Authorized For Hurricane Katrina - Emergency Response In Louisiana, Aug 27, 2005, in particular:

FEMA will mobilize equipment and resources necessary to protect public health and safety by assisting law enforcement with evacuations, establishing shelters, supporting emergency medical needs, meeting immediate lifesaving and life-sustaining human needs and protecting property, in addition to other emergency protective measures.

[despairing optimist]

22. When a governor formally requests federal assistance, that's it

The person who told you that may be misinformed, confused, or unduly apologetic for Bush. Governors don't like to ask for federal intervention because they lose control over the general rescue/recovery process, but Governor Blanco knew how bad things could get before Katrina even hit. She did the right thing; it's not her fault that Bush is president and didn't follow through properly.

[Marr]

25. That's what I thought. Thank you very much.

[Lochloosa]

39. Nerves are a little frayed here right now...

everything we have be YELLING at people for the last five years has come blatantly clear. Bush is incompetent and evil...sorry.

[demo dutch]

41. MARR - Read this article which explains some of the problems

no to mention that FEMA and the Govt knew the situation in advance
cancelled funding for evacuation plans
see below....

Quote
The Bush-run federal government is far from blameless. The Federal Emergency Management Agency, or FEMA, which has botched the Katrina operation from Day One, was also well aware of the problems of evacuating the poor. Their response:

Last year, FEMA spent $250,000 to conduct an eight-day hurricane drill for a mock killer storm hitting New Orleans. Some 250 emergency officials attended. Many scenarios now playing out, including a helicopter evacuation of the Superdome, were discussed in that drill for a fictional storm named Pam.

This year, the group was to design a plan to fix such unresolved problems as evacuating sick and injured people from the Superdome and housing tens of thousands of stranded citizens. But funding for that planning was cut, said Tolbert, who also was disaster chief for North Carolina.

link
http://www.pnionline.com/dnblog/attytood/archives/002339.html

[tjdee]

24. Homeland Security accepts responsibility for large disasters. Period.

The link from Homeland Security's own site is floating around.

So that's bullshit.

He's purported to be the "PRESIDENT" of the United States. He can do whatever he damn well pleases in that regard.

[tuvor]

26. They don't let this fact get in the way of an opinion, I guess:

From the official DHS website

Preparing America

In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility on March 1st for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort. The new Department will also prioritize the important issue of citizen preparedness. Educating America's families on how best to prepare their homes for a disaster and tips for citizens on how to respond in a crisis will be given special attention at DHS.

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/theme_home2.jsp

[Marr]

28. Thanks- that quote, along with the governor's letter requesting

federal aid, should be enough to end that argument.

[tuvor]

35. Spread the word. And...

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[Marr]

40. Thank you very much. :D

I'm actually returning with a new name, since I lost my old one reformatting this machine. :/

But no one really "knew" me here anyway, so... new name.

[charmsicle]

29. This is the new line, guys

It was the corruption of the city and state governement that prevented help from getting to LA.

How does that work, exactly? Both the mayor and Gov, knowing they had limited resources are were going to ask for help, asked for just that on THURSDAY. And asked for it again and again (we all saw it on the TV, folks) until yesterday. How did local and state corruption stop help from getting to them.

And how does that excuse the help that didn't get to Alabama?

But they've got their line now.

[Old and In the Way]

56. It's pretty stupid, isn't it?

New Orleans gets hit with a Cat.4 Hurricane....loses all communication, all vital services are down, the city then floods....and yet they expect a mayor to deal with the problem immediately and without the resources of the federal government at his disposal.

It's really too bad that the entire Free Republic/Bush Cult worshipers weren't holding a porta-pottie convention in New Orleans last weekend. They could have been in awe of their Maximum Leader's stellar performance while they were sat patiently for 3 days without food and water in 100 degree heat and 95% relative humidity. I'm sure they'd be model Americans with perfect virtues.

[Cleita]

30. Well, he's already had his dose of Koolaid for today.

Tell him that BFEE have to have scapegoats to deflect the blame from them, but that the buck doesn't stop at the governor's office but the White House. That's how it works.

[cry baby]

31. uh huh........right......

* called these areas disaster areas before the hurricane hit. Doesn't that in itself put FEMA in charge?

Also, the Corp of Engineers (fed) built the levees to sustain a level 3 hurricane to save money, so the feds knew this disaster was coming, and they still had no plan.

* actually said on TV that they had no idea that the levees would fail. BULLSH*T

[Greylyn58]

Clinton made FEMA a cabinet position

He and director Witt made it a well respected agency, which it wasn't before him.

Then when Bubbleboy took over he down sized it and put it under his new Homeland Security Dept. Tearing apart everything that had been built up.

:grr:

[DoYouEverWonder]

33. Bush declared a State of Emergency before the storm hit

At that point he became responsible for everything.

[demo dutch]

34. no to mention that FEMA and the Govt knew the situation in advance and

cancelled funding see below....
Quote
The Bush-run federal government is far from blameless. The Federal Emergency Management Agency, or FEMA, which has botched the Katrina operation from Day One, was also well aware of the problems of evacuating the poor. Their response:

Last year, FEMA spent $250,000 to conduct an eight-day hurricane drill for a mock killer storm hitting New Orleans. Some 250 emergency officials attended. Many scenarios now playing out, including a helicopter evacuation of the Superdome, were discussed in that drill for a fictional storm named Pam.

This year, the group was to design a plan to fix such unresolved problems as evacuating sick and injured people from the Superdome and housing tens of thousands of stranded citizens. But funding for that planning was cut, said Tolbert, who also was disaster chief for North Carolina.

link
http://www.pnionline.com/dnblog/attytood/archives/002339.html

[Greylyn58]

36. Dupe

[MojoXN]

37. Your someone is...

A Bushite. He or she says and believes, "ALL HAIL BUSH!!"

Nothing that you say or do is going to change their mind.

Nothing... Move on to someone else. Help them to realize the truth. Recognize the lost causes, the ones who are too far gone, and move on to someone that can benefit from knowledge. The first rule of triage: Try to heal, if it's obvious that it's impossible, move on. Attend to the worst first, and if they can't be saved, go to the next.

MojoXN

[laureloak]

38. Bullshit. THE BUCK STOPS WITH BUSH!!!!

Draw them a picture. Tell them to watch INDEPENDENCE DAY and observe how the President is suppose to act during a major disaster.

[jaxx]

43. The governor of Lousiana requested help on Aug. 28th

http://gov.louisiana.gov/Disaster%20Relief%20Request.pdf to FEMA and the pResident.

They have no excuse other than apathy.

[pinto]

45. Interesting comments on the "chain of command" and responsibility, here:

poster transcribed this, there may be more current transcripts from the BBC...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4605183

On BBC: Northern Command was in position, waiting for Presidential orders.

<snip>

Announcer: The relief operation is the largest ever conducted in America. It's being coordinated by the US Northern Command in Colorado. Leftenant Commander Sean Kelly explains how the relief effort is being organized.

Kelly: US Northern Command is the command that coordinates the military support for our federal and state agencies. They call up and request a capability and we try and provide that capability, whether it's medical resources, search and rescue helicopters, food, water, transportation, communications; that's what we provide.

A: So it sounds like you're providing a bit of everything. I mean, do you know how much you're actually providing?

K: Right now we've got 4,000 soldiers, sailors, airmen and marine and coast guardsmen supporting this. They've delivered more than 9 million meals, I can't remember how many millions of liters of water.

A: 9 million meals? Do you actually have 9 million meals?

K: It's those "meals ready to eat". The packaged meals that the Army takes out with them out in the field. We have 9 million of 'em ready. I know at least 100,000 went to the Superdome the other night to help the people out there in New Orleans. So they're staged at various places throughout Mississippi, Alabama, and Louisiana.

A: Now I'm sure you're aware of the criticism that the authorities have been slow to respond to this. When did you get the order to start relief work?

K: NorthCom started planning before the storm even hit. We were ready for the storm when it hit Florida because, as you remember, it crossed the bottom part of Florida, and then we were plaining, you know, once it was pointed towards the Gulf Coast. So what we did was we activated what we call defense coordinating officers to work with the state to say okay, what do you think you'll need, and we set up staging bases that could be started. We had the USS Baton sailing almost behind the hurricane so that after the hurricane made landfall it's search and rescue helicopters would be available almost immediately. So we had things ready. The only caveat is, we have to wait until the President authorizes us to do so. The laws of the United States say that the military can't just act in this fashion, we have to wait for the President to give us permission.

A: Now I gather that your engineers are also involved in pumping some of that flood water out of the areas.

K: Yes, our military personnel are helping to reconstruct the levees which frees up the engineers to start pumping out the waters so that hopefully New Orleans can be high and dry soon enough.

<snip>

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4605183

[SoKalKyle]

46. cnn has the video with Bush & FEMA

Conferencing on the fact that this one was going to be more massive than Andrew and result in exactly what happened, that the government was ready...

http://www.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?url=/video/us/2005/08/28/nurenberg.fema.katrina.affl&wm=10

or check out

http://search.cnn.com/pages/search.jsp?query=FEMA

and look for the video on "FEMA prepares" from 8/28/05

[LSK]

47. 100% WRONG

The Governor of Louisiana did request help on August 28 (http://gov.louisiana.gov/Disaster%20Relief%20Request.pd... ) in accordance with the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act (http://www.fema.gov/library/stafact.shtm ). This act gives the President authority to act to save lives:

"§ 5192. Federal emergency assistance {Sec. 502}

1. Specified

In any emergency, the President may--

1. direct any Federal agency, with or without reimbursement, to utilize its authorities and the resources granted to it under Federal law (including personnel, equipment, supplies, facilities, and managerial, technical and advisory services) in support of State and local emergency assistance efforts to save lives, protect property and public health and safety, and lessen or avert the threat of a catastrophe;

2. coordinate all disaster relief assistance (including voluntary assistance) provided by Federal agencies, private organizations, and State and local governments;

3. provide technical and advisory assistance to affected State and local governments for--

1. the performance of essential community services;
2. issuance of warnings of risks or hazards;
3. public health and safety information, including dissemination of such information;
4. provision of health and safety measures; and
5. management, control, and reduction of immediate threats to public health and safety;

4. provide emergency assistance through Federal agencies;

5. remove debris in accordance with the terms and conditions of section 407 <42 U.S.C. § 5173>;

6. provide assistance in accordance with section 408

7. assist State and local governments in the distribution of medicine, food, and other consumable supplies, and emergency assistance.

[Marr]

48. Thanks for the responses, everyone.

Lots of useful information here- I appreciate it.

[MadeinOhio]

49. Partly true...according to the GOPs laws local governments must take care

Of all their situations themselves, that is according to the new laws passed after FEMA legislation. But that didn't matter at all because the state was NOT equipped to handle this!!!!! And they begged for FEDERAL AID and help and did not get it, for literal days and were ignored!

[BootinUp]

50. FEMA was tasked in '97 with developing an evac plan for NO

The program was never completed. Shutdown by the Bush admin due to lack of funds.

http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_09.html#076546

[Wizard777]

54. I see, said the blind man to the deaf mute. The Anti Nagin arises!

Bush had everything NOLA needed and more outside. Bush was beating on NOLA's front Door screaming, People are dying, damn it, let us in! The every evil Senator Landreaux, Governor Blanco and Mayor Nagin bared the door on Bush. They yelled back, Go away! We're out to get you! We haven't finished our conspiracy plans against you yet! That piece of your brother Niels hair just got here. We doing Voodoo! Come back later when we can make you look bad!

O' yeah UH HUH.....

[applegrove]

57. BULLSHIT!