NYC= Victims. NOLA=Refugees ?

[On Par]

Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I really can't understand why people, especially those in the MSM, calling those devastated by Katrina "refugees."

Look at the #1 definition of each word.

victim: One who is harmed or killed by another

refugee: One who flees in search of refuge, as in times of war, political oppression, or religious persecution.

Which is more true? Add to that the fact these people are not from a 3rd world country where we are used to seeing these occurrences. They are United States Citizens. They have jobs. They pay taxes. Poor? To be certain, many are. But does that mean they are less of a citizen than you or me? Those in Bush World believe that. For everyone else, they are fellow citizens of this great melting pot who were victimized by a hurricane just as those in NYC were victimized by terrorist actions.

We need to say what happened. Not negatively label those who survived.

[HEyHEY]

1. Did one million people leave NYC for shelter and safety for months?

[On Par]

9. Are You Saying "No One Was Displaced" in NYC?

That no one lost everything. That no one lost their homes, their jobs, or their way of life?

Are you really saying that?

[HEyHEY]

12. No I'm saying millions of people didn't flee the city for the astro dome

Are you saying Americans are too good to be called refugees? Are you saying you're not like those lowly skiiny people on TV? Are you really saying that?

[On Par]

23. Trying To Change The Circumstances Reduces Your Argument.

I said what I said, and I stand by it. And I will add they are victims. They are Americans on their home soil. They are not refugees. They are like me, and maybe you, although you want to label them with negativity.

[HEyHEY]

34. NO...you're were trying to change the circumstance of miine

ALl I said was a shitlaod of people didn't flee New York.. I never said any of the other shit you accused me of saying.. nice try on the change up buddy

[On Par]

40. They May Not Have Left NY, Because They Didn't Live There...

...only worked there. A different dynamic than NOLA to be sure, but the same cirumstances within a smaller magnitude. Do your best to grasp the concept.

[Eric J in MN]

16. Most people stayed in the city after 9/11/2001.

There weren't thousands moved to a stadium in another state.

I don't object to people who are forced to go to Texas being called refugees.

[prodigal_green]

22. I'm a New Yorker

relatively few people lost their homes. We never lost our infrastructure. We walked home over bridges that were intact and on dry streets. Two buildings were destroyed. Yes, it was tragic and it was preventable, but no, it did not wipe out the homes of over a half-million people. Babies, the elderly and the sick were not starving in the street. Hospitals had more than enough supplies. In fact, I was turned away by four hospitals when I went to donate blood because they could not take any more donation. Those of us who wanted to help were able to access the site as necessary. For most of us, it was a massive inconvenience. I don't say that to downplay the psychological impact of the event, but I know that I was able to go home and call and email friends and family to let them know I was safe within 12 hours of the event.

I lost my job as a result of the economic downturn which was due to government mismanagement of the aftermath, not because the street where I worked was washed away.

[On Par]

30. Again, You're Talking Magnitude of The Event....

...and the people who died or were mamed-- their lives, and their families lives changed forever more.

Both occurances have one thing in common. Both were victimized by their government.

[prodigal_green]

38. well if it is magnitude we're talking about...

we should be talking every day about people who die from lack of health care, or because of environmental damage that leads to an astonishing rise in asthma and autism rates, or because of workplace deaths or poor oversight of drug manufacturers or whose families are changed forever because of "reformed" bankruptcy bills and lowered educational standards for their children or mandatory sentancing laws, etc., etc.

These events happen on a daily basis, one family at a time.

The shocking difference between New York and the Gulf Coast is that rich and poor were affected by the WTC attack. The fact that the wealthy were at least able to get out with their health and families intact means that there WAS a way to survive, it was just not accessible to the poor.

[Lydia Guerra]

35. The Heros Rushed into Danger to Help NYC

FEMA has been doing everything in its power to keep those same heros away from NOLA.

[carpetbagger]

25. Well, I didn't see New Yorkers fleeing to Philadelphia.

Those that did probably returned by the end of the week.

If you have another name you'd like everyone to call this group of people, one that describes what they have to go through, let us know.

[On Par]

36. How Do You Know They Didn't Live In Philadelphia?

Just because they died in NYC, doesn't mean they lived there! They lived in New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Washington DC, to name a few. And all of those places, and those families suffered.

Those on the Gulf Coast are victims of a hurricane, not refugees.

[Birthmark]

2. Hmmm....

NYC Victims = mostly white
NO Refugees = mostly African American

But of course race has nothing to do with it.

[prodigal_green]

33. actually

the victims spanned the spectrum of race and class. You only heard about the white folks because they were the ones who had the high-profile jobs at financial institutions. Support staff and building management personnel were, like in any urban office tower, non-white.

Trust me, I was there.

But I agree with your main point--this is a week of shame for this country. This is an economic and environmental lynching of the population of the Gulf Coast. The KKK couldn't have planned it better.

[Zynx]

3. Would you prefer "internally displaced persons?"

Under any definition of the term, the US now has a very large, internal refugee crisis with over a million forcibly displaced men, women and children.

Most people in 9/11 were just killed, not displaced.

[Eric J in MN]

31. "Evacuee" was suggested in another thread (nt)

nt

[givemebackmycountry]

4. THANK YOU

THESE PEOPLE ARE U.S. CITIZENS!
Living on their own soil in the nation of their birth.

THEY ARE NOT FUCKING REFUGEES!!!


GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Maple]

5. Here's the problem

"these people are not from a 3rd world country... where we are used to seeing these occurrences... They are United States Citizens."

[marbuc]

6. They are called refugees

because they were displaced from their homes (and seeking refuge). This is the difference between them and the 9/11 victims. The latter were killed.

[On Par]

13. Let Me Repeat Myself....

Are you saying no one was displaced in NYC? Are you saying that no one lost everything in NYC? That no one lost their homes, their jobs, or their way of life?

Are you really saying that?

The only thing we are talking about is "magnitude" of the devastation.

[marbuc]

29. I'm saying that 9/11 was completely different

The damage was limited to the WTC and maybe immediate surroundings. New Orleans was destroyed. All of its citizens are looking for REFUGE, hence, the label. 9/11 and Katrina are not the same, so this comparison doesn't work.

[bribri16]

32. Let's cut the crap. We all know the mental picture conjured up by

the term "refugee." It's dictionary and technical meaning may be one thing, but we all know what we think about when we use the term "refugee." It usually means someone who doesn't belong in this country, someone not born here but here escaping rotten conditions in their native land. I think I would personally rather be known as an evacuee than a refugee. Perception is reality.

[Carolab]

14. FYI--People were displaced by OTHER hurricanes such as IVAN

and they were NOT called "refugees", but "victims"...

LOOK IT UP!!!

[henslee]

7. I do not think there is a negative connotation of "refugee". If anything

it adds urgency to their condition. Sure they are survivors... but that is obvious.

[SmokingJacket]

8. "Victim" is confusing because it conflates the people killed with the

people who survived, but are homeless and otherwise suffering.

Maybe just plain old "survivors"? And "victims" for the dead...

[Garbo 2004]

10. They are refugees from Bush's America. n/t

[gemlake]

11. Refugee sounds like they're not Americans

Helps to distance "them" from "us." I think it's an important point. I wonder which news agency made the decision to go with "refugee" first?

[HEyHEY]

15. Look out...they're watching you right now.....

[Eric J in MN]

19. Only because we're used to hearing about refugee crises in

other countries, but now it's happened here.

[DoYouEverWonder]

20. Refugees implies that they have no home to return to

that is because Bush and his buddy are getting for this biggest land grab in history. It's part of the psy-ops that they want us to see the victims as refugees.

[Imagevision]

17. Look up refugee in websters - it doesn't define New Orleans people

Their Americans dammit!!! not freegin refugee's

[On Par]

18. Th e Only Difference Between NYC and NOLA is Magnitude

...of the consequences. Just as NYC had greater magnitude than Oklahoma City. But rest assured, they all encountered the same circumstances. Only the magnitude of grief was different.

[bettyellen]

37. as a New Yorker- I don't see it. The area where people were forced to

leave their homes after 9/11 was miniscule in comparison as well as affluent. by the following monday, the majority of the city was back to work.
it was horrendous, yes, but very different in many ways. from the first monent, many many people worked the recue mission- civilians next to construction, fire and law enforcement people from all over the country were allowed to enter NYC and go to work- FEMA didn't stop them. there were thousands of residents assisting in every way they could from the moment it happened. and they could, because they weren't in danger or drowning or starving.
the saddest difference is that we had thousands of people sifting through rubble with very little result. in new orleans there were thousands that could have been rescued, but attempts to do so were stymied by FEMA.

[Lydia Guerra]

21. Were Florida Hurricane Victims called Refugees?

Were the Texas Hurricane Victims called Refugees?

Were the people of Iowa and Illinois displaced by Mississippi floodwaters called Refugees?

Of course we are not talking about economics and of course were are not talking about race.

[Lydia Guerra]

27. I'm even sensitive to verbage referring to the "Gulf Coast"

And I had the same reaction as I do to fingernails on a chalkboard when I heard reference to "looters" as insurgents - in NOLA!!

[bribri16]

24. I just didn't want to go there. But hell...you did. n/t

[Eric J in MN]

26. "Evacuee" is being suggested in another thread,

since "refugee" usually means someone who went to another country.

So "evacuee" might be better.

[CelticWinter]

28. Maybe a little of both

First off I didnt know refugees were from 3rd world countries, which by the way we are well on our way to being one if this administration has its way. But if you look at the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary you will see what it states for refugees and victims-----maybe these people are a little of both.

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

Main Entry: ref·u·gee
Pronunciation: "re-fyu-'jE, 're-fyu-"
Function: noun
Etymology: French réfugié, past participle of (se) réfugier to take refuge, from Latin refugium
: one that flees; especially : a person who flees to a foreign country or power to escape danger or persecution
- ref·u·gee·ism /-"i-z&m/ noun FPRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT="

Main Entry: vic·tim
Pronunciation: 'vik-t&m
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English vyctym, from Latin victima; perhaps akin to Old High German wIh holy
1 : a living being sacrificed to a deity or in the performance of a religious rite
2 : one that is acted on and usually adversely affected by a force or agent <the schools are victims of the social system>: as a (1) : one that is injured, destroyed, or sacrificed under any of various conditions <a victim of cancer> <a victim of the auto crash> <a murder victim> (2) : one that is subjected to oppression, hardship, or mistreatment <a frequent victim of political attacks> b : one that is tricked or duped <a con man's victim>

[BrightKnight]

39. displaced or evacuated citizens sounds much better

Also, I am not willing to deny that they have a home in New Orleans.

Why not give the people jobs rebuilding the city. Subsidize the wages of displaced NOLA residents involved in rebuilding the city. It is better than paying other states to accommodate them.