Do you support John Kerry's mandatory service proposal?

[KaraokeKarlton]

His plan would make it mandatory for highschool students to work unpaid in order to graduate. His plan would also require teenagers from 13 to 17 to spend an entire summer doing community service. His plan would somehow have senior citizens doing community service as well. His plan would also push to recruit more kids into the military. There is also some mention of a "Community Defense Service" that sounds as if it would be some kind of National Guard type thing. The ONLY thing he mentions that I agree with is allowing young people to work for two years (if they want to) in exchange for 4 years of college. I approve of that portion because it's voluntary. I have a real problem with the other things he's calling for.

Here is a link to read his proposal:

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/service.html

What do you think of this? I absolutely hate the idea other than the voluntary 2 years in exchange for 4 years of college because that part isn't forced and there is compensation for doing the work. Share your thoughts.

It's no secret that I dislike Kerry, and admittedly, this issue adds to my dislike of him. I support Dean for the nomination but also like several others that I'm not supporting this time around.

[StopTheMorans]

1. nope

don't like it unless it's voluntary.

[Brucey]

2. No.

No mandatory service unless it's social service to help the needy, and even then I don't like it.

[soleft]

3. No

[CMT]

4. elements of the plan are ok

but making it mantatory is not a good idea. You shouldn't force people to do things that they don't want to. If someone wants to do something it should be because they want to not because they are forced to.

[DrGonzoLives]

5. I like the "Service for College" as well

That is an excellent idea, and a good way for students who might not be able to afford college to get a chance to go.

Requiring community service for high school graduation, however, I will never support. Why should people be coerced into doing that for something that they are "supposed" to have (a high school diploma)? It makes no sense to me - having the service for college program would be incentive enough to get a lot of people to do it.

Why force people who simply don't care to do so? They will do a shoddy job, complain constantly...I don't see the point in forcing them to do anything. Let the people who want to volunteer do so.

[KaraokeKarlton]

131. People in nursing homes wouldn't want visits from angry kids

who are only there because they are forced. Does Kerry think kids are going to be all sweet and pleasant when they are being forced against their will to do these things? Teenagers don't work that way. When they are made to do things they don't want to, they are resentful and negative. In my opinion, this is BAD for seniors in nursing homes and could have a horrible impact on them. No one likes having someone spend time with them when the person clearly doesn't want to be doing that. Mandating that kids "volunteer" isn't "volunteering"...it's forcing kids to do something they don't want to do. It's wrong.

[JI7]

149. they don't have to go to nursing homes

and kids who are so angry to have to do these things that they would hurt others in the process most likely need professional help.

[KaraokeKarlton]

150. I didn't say they'd hurt others

I said they would have a negative attitude and wouldn't want to be there. That means they would just sit there silently or go through the motions without wanting to make conversation or be good company. It wouldn't matter what it was they were made to do, the results wouldn't be good because they wouldn't be there because they care about the cause. They would be there because they were forced. If a person is forced, it's not volunteer work or giving back to the community. It is the community taking from you against your will. That doesn't help build community, it helps build resentment. This would hurt volunteerism as a whole terribly. The kid who didn't want to eat their peas and were forced to eat them often refuse to go anywhere near peas for the rest of their lives. If this terrible mandatory service becomes a reality it will lead to less of those kids choosing to volunteer later in life. It will have the opposite effect of what Kerry thinks. It's a VERY BAD idea.

[JI7]

152. they don't have to do that then

if they don't want to do that, then they can decide on something else. and service in high school is already common in many schools. maybe you can do a study on the kids who went to these schools and whether they grew up to be resentful of volunteer work. i hated homework and research assignments and i don't resent that work now. and i was in high school in the mid to late 90's as was my brother .he doesn't hate and resent volunteer service. i don't know how old you are, but it's a common thing in many schools. to say it would lead to kids not volunteering in the future is equivalent to saying it kids not wanting to do homework and forced to in high school will lead to them not wanting their kids to do it either when the opposite is true. unless the kids need professional help they grow up to understand things in a different perspective they didn't understand back then.

[On the Road]

6. The Key Really is in the Implementation

If student and their parents complete the service and think they have done something useful and helped the community, it could be a success. It could become a popular program and encourage people to be involved and civic-minded. But it has the potential to have the oppositve effect if it is perceived as a useless mandatory requirement.

Without knowing more, I would not be optimistic.

[alfredo]

7. I think he is drawing upon ideas from more civilized societies that

have coming of age rituals. This rituals clearly mark the line between childhood and adulthood. Before you are expected to be a kid, after, you are accepted into adulthood. As an adult you are accepted into the tribe, but you are also expected to act as an adult.

His plan has merit, but will need some tweaking.

[La_Serpiente]

8. HELLO NO

Hell no....I don't want to be working for a military that could be construed to any President's will. It sounds like something that Israel would do. Israel makes their citizens work for a year in the miliary.

[sangh0]

Work for the military? Huh?

Did you read Kerry's proposal? It says nothing about wroking for the military.

[clar]

9. Yes

I support it. The proposal leaves it up to state and local communities to design programs that work for them. I have two caveats. The first is decoupling any recruitment for military service from the proposal for mandatory community service in the high school years. The second is losing the whole summer requirement.

I have to wonder what the heck you're thinking beating this dead horse. I think your reaction to Kerry's proposal is ridiculous.

[tjdee]

13. I agree with every word you said.nt

[sangh0]

23. You misunderstood two points

1) There is NO LINK between the military measures (see below) and the mandatory community service for high school students. The military component of Kerry's plan is as follows:

"In a Kerry Administration, no university that receives federal aid will be allowed to ban the ROTC from their campus, except for religious reasons. And the ROTC scholarship program will be adequately funded so that students can attend the college of their choice.

John Kerry will also make modernizing our GI benefits a top riority, because no program has been more successful increasing educational opportunities for veterans while also providing an incentive for the best and brightest to make a career out of military service."

IOW, the military component is

a) Can't ban ROTC on COLLEGE campuses, except for religious reasons
b) Adequately fund ROTC scholarship programs
c) Modernize GI benefits

NOTHING to do with high school.

2) The Summer program is NOT MANDATORY

[HFishbine]

10. No. Here's why.

With the enormous federal debt, the youngest generations are already being asked to sacrifice. With no vote or voice, they will have a massive financial responsibility thrust upon them in future years. They are already being asked to sacrifice plenty.

Bring the budget back to surplus and use it to reduce the debt, and then I think the adults will have the legetimacy to ask for public service from our young people. But it's repulsive to ask that they make a public contribution while we are charging against their futures.

[VelmaD]

11. No...and here's why

what about those kids from poor families who already have to work to help support them? When are they going to have time to do community service on top of a job and school? This is not hypothetical for me. My best friend had to do this. She worked her ass off to graduate 4th in our class while working as many hours a week as the law allowed teenagers and working unpaid in her dad's restaurant.

I'm not against public service for teens. I think it should be encouraged. But making it mandatory for everyone is just going to put one more burden on the kids who have hte hardest time graduating already.

[sangh0]

24. Now THAT is a good reason!

There should be a hardship exemption

[KaraokeKarlton]

94. Exactly, and my family is one of those that would suffer

and THAT is why this proposal makes me so angry! I have 3 kids who would be immediately affected by this. It would also require me to ask my boss for even more felxibility and time off from my schedule to provide transportation. We are in a VERY rural area and it would be a horrible burden to our family. My kids and I all already volunteer when we can, and I don't think the government has any business interfering in this way. Volunteer work is VOLUNTARY. Making it mandatory changes it from being "volunteer work" to forced labor, regardless of how "menial" the labor may be. Most of his proposal is WRONG.

[curse10]

96. I can't believe you are still pushing this "forced labor" crap

We don't live in a third world country.

Are your kids so helpless that when they are teenagers they can't cope without having mom drive them around? And if you are in a rural area and if everyone is as poor as you are making yourself out to be then there are obviously ample opportunities for community service.

[JohnKleeb]

99. This doesnt sound like forced labor to me

I dont agree with it being forced maybe I have to look at it, but one can say Kerry has good intentions I think on this, hes trying to instill values in kids like helping people out. Kerry isnt suggesting that these kids will be builting our houses etc for no cost and are being required too. This is standard community service it seems to me, forced labor would be like :shrug: I dont know working in coal mine or steel mill.

[KaraokeKarlton]

109. I didn't say everyone here is poor

I'm a single parent trying to provide for 4 children by myself. Our family has a very set schedule and way of doing things so that we keep a roof over our heads and food in our stomachs. For my 3 kids to do this it would cost us money and most likely that money would come out of our grocery bill because it can't come from anywhere else. Pardon me if I have a problem with Kerry forcing my kids to work and causing it to take meals off their table. I'm just so evil for taking issue with that, aren't I?

[sangh0]

111. Why can't they tutor other children?

Are you so poor and busy that your kid can't tutor another child? It doesn't cost a penny!!

I'm just so evil for taking issue with that, aren't I?

No, not evil. But it wasn't very honest of you to call "community service" "work" and it wasn't honest of you to imply that anything besides the HS requirement was mandatory.

[KaraokeKarlton]

118. I can't afford to drive them around any more than I already do.

Where I live, I'd have to drive them about a half hour to a place for them to do this "community service". And no, they don't have any extra time unless I don't make them do their homework or study or make them give up something they are already doing. I don't work "normal" hours, either. It would be impossible for our family to put in even one more activity/responsibility than we already have. Why should any of us have to give something important to us up just because John Kerry wants to force minors to do community service? On top of all my other complaints, Kerry doing this will make kids feel like they are being punished. Community service is the main thing juveniles get for a sentence when they break the law. Kerry's plan is punitive in nature and for nothing other than simply wanting the high school education American children are entitled to by law. This is a BAD idea.

[onehandle]

12. Heads are going to explode around here...

When some folks' "most hated candidate" becomes the nominee.

If some DUers don't want Kerry, Gephardt, or Lieberman, you wouldn't have wanted Gore either.

I'd prepare for an outlook adjustment if you truly want to get rid of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Rove.

[DrGonzoLives]

15. ?

He brought up a legitimate concern about a candidate's proposal. Exactly what is wrong with that?

You must be a Kerry supporter. Can't handle a little legitimate criticism of your boy, can you?

[StopTheMorans]

17. exactly

it was a legitimate concern with a policy many here obviously view as flawed, and not a reflection on the candidate. What's your problem?

[onehandle]

19. I support ten candidates...

I've contributed to five of them to raise their voices.

And my observation had nothing to do with the subject. True.

I just want people to be prepared.

[curse10]

79. My thought exactly

people seem to forget that the candidate they were all supporting three years ago has many of the same attributes and plans of the three you mentioned.

[Yupster]

14. Nope

I've spoken out against this locally already a couple of year ago.

I also don't believe in the term "paid volunteers."

[Kamika]

16. I think its great

Alot of young ppl are too lazy, they dont know what it means to really work.

[StopTheMorans]

20. completely disagree

it would take a whole summer's income away from someone like me, who worked summers in my youth to save money for college. Not a good idea at all, and it penalizes the lower classes unfairly IMHO (although I do like the fact that it treats all kids the same, i.e. wealthy youth have to do the same amt. of work as poorer kids).

on edit: added words to make sense:)

[sangh0]

26. You're wrong

The summer of service part of the plan is NOT MANDATORY!! The ONLY part that is mandatory is some form of community service for high schoolers, and how that part of the program is implemented is left up to the individual states, as any mandatory part of an education should be. The summer program is completely voluntary

[StopTheMorans]

33. well, I may be wrong on that point

but I'm not wrong overall. I still worked during the school year (construction) and had little time between sports, work, and school. In no way, shape, or form should this be mandatory, and "leaving it up to the states" doesnt change the fact that it would unnecessarily harm people with lesser free time, and those who need their little free time to generate income. It's not a very progressive proposal IMHO.

[sangh0]

36. The only valid criticism

you point to is the lack of a hardship exemption from the mandatory service. If that's it's only problem, I dont see how the program could be considered "non-progressive", unless "progressive" is defined as "perfect"

Since you only voice one complaint, would you find this proposal acceptable if it had a hardship exemption for the high-school requirement?

[StopTheMorans]

37. nope, mandatory service is still not a very

"democratic" principle in my book. Should people be forced to vote to help the democracy? Should people be forced to serve in the army to help our democracy? What are your thoughts on this? The fact that some exemptions may be given will be taken advantage of mostly by middle-upper class kids who can have their parents pull strings, but that's beside the point.

[sangh0]

40. How is it different than mandatory education?

Our society places all sorts of mandates on people. Your criticism is based on the fallacious notion that mandates are unjustified, a notion that has been rejected by an overwhelming majority of Americans of all political persuasions.

Should people be forced to serve in the army to help our democracy? What are your thoughts on this?

My thought is why are you bringing up this straw man? No one is talking about a draft in this thread, and no one is proposing one here.

And exemptions can have a income limit to prevent abuse

[StopTheMorans]

45. straw man?

my thought is that, in this instance, you are forcing people to spend "their time" helping a democracy. Military service and voter participation are both instructive examples, I did not claim that they were exact examples. They are both forcing individuals in a society to do things that should be left to free will. Education should not be, and I don't think that anyone would argue this, as it is important to give every individual a shot at the benefits that our particular form of democracy offers. However, I don't think that anyone should be "forced" to serve their community and give up their time for something if they don't want to, this really isn't a good policy decision, and I think that Kerry should renounce it.

[sangh0]

51. Yes, a straw man

Comparing "forcing an adult to do something" with "forcing an adult to do something" is an extremely inappropriate analogy because our society, our culture, and our laws have always recognizes that their is a difference between children and adults - Children need to have some decisions made for them because they are not capable of giving and refusing consent.

Why is it OK to force kids to get an education but not OK to force kids to do community service? You give two incomplete reasons for this:

1) "I don't think that anyone would argue this"

This is an appeal to popularity, and it's a fallacious argument. Majorities don't determine right from wrong.

2) "it is important to give every individual a shot at the benefits that our particular form of democracy offers"

This is true, but you don't contrast this with community service. I would argue that it's just as important that children get an shot at the benefits of performing community service. You act as though there couldnt possibly be any benefits to the child for performing community service.

[StopTheMorans]

53. I don't act as if there would be any benefits

I just think the problems inherent in this proposal vastly outweigh the benefits of forcing children to spend their free time on it.

[sangh0]

57. But the only problem you mention

is the mandatory for hs'ers portion, so how does that "vastly outweigh" the benefits.

And why do you repeat the false claim that the community service will be done during the students "free time"?

[StopTheMorans]

61. I don't care if it is done during school

then it is taking away from the students education, which is just as bad as stealing their free time IMHO. Unless you can prove to me that it is essential to the health of our country and our democracy for children to be forced to provide community service, then this argument could be used to support forcing children to do a variety of other things for us, whether during school hours or not, and that is why this proposal is a bad idea from its very core.

[sangh0]

66. What? An about-face?

Your complaint was originally that the mandatory component would interfere with a poor students ability to work in order to contribute the family's finances. Now that I've shown you that that is NOT a problem, you change your arguement?

Unless you can prove to me that it is essential to the health of our country and our democracy for children to be forced to provide community service, then this argument could be used to support forcing children to do a variety of other things for us, whether during school hours or not

Then prove to me why it is "essential to the health of our country and our democracy for children to be forced " to attend arts class, because that is exactly what we do every day in thousands of schools.

I don't have to submit to YOUR arbitrary standards which have NEVER been applied to any other part of the curriculum. PROVE TO ME that madatory education is "essential to the health of our country and our democracy"

[DrGonzoLives]

25. Excuse me?????

To hell with you. I worked constantly throughout high school, was involved heavily with band and other activities - but, oh no, I was lazy because I didn't do community service.

Tell me, what have you fucking baby boomers done in your lives that is so much better?

[charlie]

31. She's not a boomer

Just clueless.

[Kamika]

64. *cry*

Can you elaborate

[Kamika]

62. huh? im no baby boomer

Im 21 years old, i work constantly and i have alot of friends doing nothing complaining how they cant find work or something when they just sit at home all day.

[KaraokeKarlton]

98. My youngest teenager doesn't have any time either

He plays sports all year. Everyday he either has a practice or a game. He also plays two instruments, has music lessons, is in the band, is in the highest level advanced placement classes in his school and he's already having a tough time of it all. The kid is so tired he sometimes falls asleep right after practice and sleeps until morning. His schedule is already packed full and as soon as he's legally able, he wants to get a part time job as well. John Kerry has NO RIGHT to tell my child what he does with his free time. And Kerry has NO RIGHT to tell me that my children can't get the public education that is their RIGHT as an American citizen if they don't do community service.

[rocktivity]

29. Really working means really getting paid, and in dollars in cents

Not "community pride" and "building character." You want these kids to learn about work? Pay them.

On Edit: You want kids to learn about community service? Let them do it because they WANT to--and on their own time.


rocknation

[sangh0]

41. It's not work, it's "community service"

Don't you realize the difference between "work" and "community service"?

(Hint: no one "profits" from community service)

[Yupster]

56. I'd leave that up to the parents to decide

A stint at Burger King taught me plenty about work (for $ 2.15 an hour) when I was 15.

[Jacobin]

18. Lemme guess. Since he supported America having its very own

West Bank in the form of IraqNam, he now wants to further emulate Israel by having mandatory government service.

Fuck him.

[rocktivity]

21. No. Forcing people to work for no pay is called slavery

And forcing them to work for no pay simply because they're young adults is called discimination. If the goal is to "build character," that's all the more reason why such programs should be voluntary, extracurricular and paid.


rocknation

[in_cog_ni_to]

22. No

I do not support it. I would support a voluntary program...not a mandatory one. I am a parent of a 10 year old boy and he will turn 13 when and if Kerry is in office. Community service is one thing. Mandatory work for no pay is another....what would happen if a 13 year old was to be injured while working for free? Is he/she or the employer paying for any benefits for unemployment compensation? hospitilization? Providing insurance? It sounds like a bad idea to me. JMCPO

[sangh0]

30. There is no mandatory work requirement in the plaln

It is mandatory community service, which you say you support.

what would happen if a 13 year old was to be injured while working for free? Is he/she or the employer paying for any benefits for unemployment compensation? hospitilization? Providing insurance?

There is no work, so there is no employer. The child would be covered by the same policies that cover them if they should be hurt while in school.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

27. The high school part would be unenforceable

without a Constitutional ammendment, because high school graduation requirements have always been set by states.

I like the idea of mandatory service after high school graduation, though. The one good thing about the military draft was that it got young men out of their narrow little worlds and put them together with other races, classes, and religions to share a common experience.

If high school grads could be given a choice between military or community social service, or public works construction or environmental restoration, I'd be all for it. (I wouldn't send the average 18-year-old into the Peace Corps or any other long-term overseas work assignment, although a few might be ready.) Like the military, these jobs would provide for a stipend as well as room and board, and people completing the program without earning the civilian equivalent of a "dishonorable discharge" would be eligible for the G.I. Bill.

For one thing, I think that college professors would appreciate getting entering freshman classes full of students who had some real world experience outside their own families and communities.

And would I have gone into compulsory service as an 18-year-old? Oh, yes. I had a mother who didn't want me to leave home. I would have jumped at the chance.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

28. No

Only a wealthy aristocrat like Kerry would think that regular people need to take a summer off to do "good deeds" in "national service".

Hello, Kerry, normal high school kids have to WORK FOR A LIVING and GET JOBS.

[sangh0]

32. Nothing in Kerry's plan prevents kids from working

during the summer. The summer program is voluntary. You're confusing the voluntary summer program with the mandatory community service for high schoolers.

[StopTheMorans]

34. well, none of it should be mandatory

again, it unnecessarily penalizes those with little free time who need that time to generate income for whatever reason, which is why I feel that it is not a very progressive policy at all.

[sangh0]

38. How does it do that?

it unnecessarily penalizes those with little free time who need that time to generate income for whatever reason

The plan says nothing about when the hs requirement must be fulfilled. It does not require that the service be performed after school hours, when it might conflict with a hs students employment. The community service can be performed during school hours.

[StopTheMorans]

39. check my post above about forcing individuals

to participate in a democracy. Should we force people to vote to ensure a good election? Should we force them to join the military in peacetimes for the good of the democracy? This does not further the greater good of democracy in the US IMHO.

[sangh0]

44. We aren't talking about adults

Why do you insist on using such deceptive and misleading points? Voting and joining the army in peacetime are done by ADULTS who are considered, by law, to be capable of making their own decisions.

In this instance, we are talking about children, and this nation has ALWAYS considered them subject to mandates, like getting an education, curfews, chores, etc. Your argument is based on the idea that it's wrong to force CHILDREN (which is why your references to adults are so misleading) to do certain things for their own good. I'd like to see someone raise their children in a manner consistent with idea.

[StopTheMorans]

49. as i listed above

education is mandatory b/c an educated public is absolutely essential to the overall health of our country and our democracy (i.e. it is essential to have a literate public for many reasons). Public service should be an individual decision, child or otherwise. It is not essential to our democracy to have kids performing community service, it is a completely arbitrary decision. Hell, why don't we just have them work at retail stores a few hours a week too so we can drive down the cost of goods by providing cheap labor, which would then benefit all of Americans? (if you hadn't noticed, that was sarcasm).

[sangh0]

54. as I stated above

You just assume that the performance of community service is not "essential to the overall health of our country and our democracy". I disagree.

Public service should be an individual decision, child or otherwise. It is not essential to our democracy to have kids performing community service, it is a completely arbitrary decision

You are "begging the question" Instead of providing justifications for your position (ie "Public service should be an individual decision" and "It is not essential") you merely repeat them.

Hell, why don't we just have them work at retail stores a few hours a week too so we can drive down the cost of goods by providing cheap labor, which would then benefit all of Americans? (if you hadn't noticed, that was sarcasm).

There is a difference between work and community service. They have different goals in mind. Work is for money and profit; Community service is to benefit the society at large.

[StopTheMorans]

60. again, you're ignoring some of my more important

arguments. The "having kids work retail" argument was meant to illustrate that it is not right to have children do something arbitrary simply to benefit the greater good of the society when others should be doing these thigns (i.e. kids would gain great social skills from working in stores, they would get to feel the "comraderie" of working on a team, and they would drive down the price of goods, thereby benefiting all of society). I feel that having kids perform community service definitely offers a few benefits, but that these benefits are not essential to the health and well-being of our democracy, as education most certainly is.

and lastly, your statement
You are "begging the question" Instead of providing justifications for your position" in response to my statement "Public service should be an individual decision, child or otherwise. It is not essential to our democracy to have kids performing community service, it is a completely arbitrary decision" makes no sense. Noone I know of has ever argued that without mandatory community service, our democracy would fail. you cannot make the same argument with education. You're asking me to prove something that is ridiculous, you are the only person here who makes the assumption that community service is essential to the health of a democracy, so I would ask you to prove why this is so.

[sangh0]

68. And again, you "beg the question"

You just repeat the claim that a community service mandate is "arbitrary" and of no benefit to the student. You do the same thing when you say that a requiring kids to get an education is essential to the health and well-being of our democracy. It isn't

For two hundred years there was NO such requirement, and our democracy held up just fine. Today, education is a requirement, and our democracy, such as it is, is in danger.


Noone I know of has ever argued that without mandatory community service, our democracy would fail. you cannot make the same argument with education.

I just did.

Furthermore, the idea that something must be "essential" before we can force children to do it is just your opinion, and has nothing to do with how we have justified forcing children to do things in the past.


you are the only person here who makes the assumption that community service is essential to the health of a democracy

I did not make such an assumption. I rejected your idea that something must be "essential" in order to force children to do it.

[JI7]

55. the service is part of the education

just like physical education, taking art classes, and other things one may feel they don't need for their future. this service is mostly things as simple as maybe helping out another student their school work. or spending time at retirement homes. etc. it's like field trips, and science projects . things that may extend out of the classroom, but are all part of the education provided.

[sangh0]

58. Why should we force students to go to gym?

Why should we force them to help their fellow students?

Why should we force students to do a science project?

Because, it's part of their education!

[StopTheMorans]

63. but, if you look around

we determine the curriculum by what society deems important and acceptable, and I doubt you could come anywhere close to gaining a small percentage of people who would be in favor of "adding this to the curriculum", it simply is not as important as many of the other elements of education (many of which deemed non-essential such as the arts and music are already in danger).

[sangh0]

69. No we don't

we determine the curriculum by what society deems important and acceptable

NO we don't. Is art class important? Why? Is art clas mor eimportant than community service? Why? Gym class? Why?

[in_cog_ni_to]

65. I'm just curious

are you a parent?

[sangh0]

74. I'm curious too

Are you employed in the community service industry?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

50. mandatory community service = no time for a job

and most kids NEED the job. If the kids are going to do this during class, what are they going to miss?

[sangh0]

59. That's a lie

The mandatory community service can be completed during school hours. Tutoring other students in the school is one way to fulfill the requirement without taking away from any of the student's work time.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

84. goody, skip class for "community service"

This is Kerry's worst idea yet.

[sangh0]

85. Another lie

There's nothing in there about skipping classes.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

86. you just said community service will be done during the school day!

wtf? Which is it? Is Kerry going to demand kids do work on their own time, or is it during school time? You tell me.

Either way, it's a stupid idea and Kerry is stupid for proposing it.

[sangh0]

88. Not skipping classes.

No one ever skipped a class to perform community service. And no one ever will.

[StopTheMorans]

87. you keep playing semantics

which is why people stop arguing with you after awhile. You take a few points out of a post, or a statement that was vaguely off-kilter (by "skipping classes", the poster obviously meant "will need to take school time to do community service" yet you attacked a phrase that you (I am assuming) obviously understood), and make that the focus of your rebuttal, instead of the real meat behind the statement. That's why I will not argue with you on this thread any more, you post things like "another lie" and you continue to use such inflammatory and condescending rhetoric, while refusing to address any criticisms with substance.

[sangh0]

89. Do you even know what the word semantics mean?

And "skipping classes" has a completely different meaning than "will need to take school time to do community service"

No one has EVER "skipped class" to perform community service. If the poster meant "will need to take school time to do community service" then the poster should have said so. Using "skipping classes" as if it "obviously" means "will need to take school time to do community service" is a perfect example of "inflammatory and condescending rhetoric"

Calling something what it is is the way to address criticisms with substance. Calling school-time community service "skipping classes" is nothing more than an intentional lie.

And if your argument is that requiring community service will require a class to be cut, then that is what you should say. There is no excuse for phrasing it as a lie about "cutting classes".

[StopTheMorans]

91. yeah I was an english minor in college thanks

and again, you're doing the same thing. You could obviously infer what the poster was getting at from your discussion with WCTV in the previous few posts. Yet you chose not to, and instead addressed a petty concern dealing with semantics instead of substance (if you tell me that you couldn't see what the poster was getting at, then we really have nothing more to discuss, it was an obvious inference). Yes, maybe the poster could have put it a bit more clearly, but you understood the point, and you could have called the poster on using inflammatory rhetoric while still addressing substance. The proposal is rotten, we've discussed the ways ad nauseum in this thread, no matter how you look at it, a huge majority here feel it's a bad idea, and you can try and play cutesy and dissect semantic concerns contained within small pieces of posters' discussion of it all you want, it's still crap in the eyes of most here, and arguing over whether "skipping classes" is or is not an acceptable substitute for "will need to take school time to complete community service" isn't going to change the fact that it is a poor policy idea that Kerry should drop IMHO.

[sangh0]

92. So you don't know what "Semantics" mean!!! LOL!

Yet you chose not to, and instead addressed a petty concern dealing with semantics instead of substance

Breaking new english minor:

"Semantics" IS about substance. You should have said "rhetoric instead of substance"

And no, what the poster meant was not obvious. What the poster SAID was stupid. The only thing obvious about it was the dishonest attempt to associate Kerry's plan with something undesireable, like "cutting classes". It's just like how Bush* calls AA plans "quotas", but I guess you have no problem with *that* lie because you're only interested in substance, right?

And it's OK when Bush* changes his assertions about Saddam from "he had WMD's" to "he had WMD programs", because you don't care about "semantics", right?

a huge majority here feel it's a bad idea

A sign of how ridiculous your argument is is your need to claim that the majority is on your side, as if the majority is always right.

SO far, the only argument you've been able to make is that we shouldn't force kids to do anything unless it's "essential to democracy", which is a ridiculous argument which ignores the fact that for almost 200 years we had no universal public ed system, and democracy help up just fine.

[StopTheMorans]

95. what I meant by the majority comment

was not the majority of americans; rather, a majority of progressive americans (represented here) feel that this is bad policy. It is, and I still disagree with you playing word games (I'll lay off the semantics here since you insist) instead of dealing with the fact that this policy (I'm sick of playing here) is just plain crap:) How's that? You like the policy, I don't, I don't agree with any premise of it, you aren't willing to change, neither am I, so we'll have to agree to respectfully disagree, as our dialogue is taking us nowhere.

[sangh0]

101. And again, the majority of ANY group isn't always right

Arguments based on the popularity of an idea are well known to be fallacious.

You like the policy, I don't, I don't agree with any premise of it, you aren't willing to change, neither am I, so we'll have to agree to respectfully disagree, as our dialogue is taking us nowhere

What dialogue? You just keep repeating that there is only one reason to force kids to do something (that it's essential to democracy) but you have refused to defend it or justify it. I've pointed out that a u niversal public ed system is NOT essential to democracy, and supported my argument by pointing out that for most of it's history, the US has no universal public ed system and democracy didn't crumbl.

You, on the other hand, have demonstrated a complete unwillingness (or inability) to defend your arguments with facts and logic. All you have done is to repeat your opinion that we can't force kids to do non-essential tasks.

So, if this is going nowhere, it's your fault. If you want this to go somewhere, then explain how you justify your argument when we already force kids to do many non-essential things, like attend gym and art class. You can say that gym and art class are good things, but "essential"???? I think not.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

90. "community service can be completed during school hours." = skipping class

what crap! Kerry will never get my vote

[sangh0]

93. Nope

but if you keep repeating, I'm sure some idiot will agree with you.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

100. Which class will be replaced by "service" under Kerry's plan?

If the "community service" will happen during the school day, which class will be canceled to allow them to do the community service?

Talk about lies, your spin is idiotic, and gives me yet another reason not to vote for that washed-up, Skull & Bones, way unelectable Kerry.

[curse10]

102. Yeah! Skulls and Bones! Skulls and Bones!!!

:eyes:

[sangh0]

103. Whichever class the people of a state decide

like gym, art class, civics, hygiene or some other less than essential class.

Talk about lies, your spin is idiotic, and gives me yet another reason not to vote for that washed-up, Skull & Bones, way unelectable Kerry

Gee, you mean there was a chance you were going to vote for Kerry?

Yeah, right!

[curse10]

76. Not true

In highschool I worked 30 hours a week, did extracurricular activities, and did community service, as was required for me to graduate. It's not like he's asking them to cut off an arm here, people.

[in_cog_ni_to]

35. I should add

I worked my way through high school...FOR PAY. It's a matter of getting paid for the work you do. My parents couldn't afford to buy me the things I wanted so I worked so I could get them. This program reminds me of the Repuke "no overtime pay" policy. It smells. Plus, there's a lot more kids, like me, who HAVE to work FOR PAY, because their parents can't afford things. If you work. You get paid. Very simple concept.

[in_cog_ni_to]

42. No, I support a voluntary

program...NOT a mandatory program. I don't think making this a REQUIREMENT in order to graduate is a good thing. Good grades accomplish that already. I can only hope he's not elected. If my son chooses to VOLUNTEER his time in a community service, that is entirely different than being forced to do it in order to graduate.

oops! This is response to SanghO's post #30.

[sangh0]

46. I oppose the "Good Grades" mandate. It should be voluntary

We shouldn't force students to do anything in order to get their HS diploma. All they should have to do is show up. Even Woody Allen knows that 90% of success if just showing up.

Heck, we shouldn't even require that! It's an infringement of a student's right to require them to do anything they don't want to do.

[in_cog_ni_to]

52. Wrong

"I" require my son to bring home GOOD grades and to do his very best in everything he does. His school also requires it or he loses tokens from a program they have. If he doesn't have the required tokens at the end of a semester, he doesn't get to participate in field trips and such. Our school has requirements and I, as a parent have requirements. I don't know about others.

[Eloriel]

43. Repugnant and wrong, IMO. n/t

[JI7]

47. my brother's school had this

and i had to do some for one class i took in high school to pass the class. my brother's school had it required to graduate. it wasn't really anything much. i think some people do not understand the proposal. they think it requires kids to work as adults do for no pay. that's not true, it's just doing things like helping in a homeless shelter, or spend time with people in those retired homes, type things. and they tell you how much times you need to do before you start high school, and you can complete it anytime you want. sangho mentioned it can be done during school, and this is true. you can help out in the library or help younger kids with school work. my brother waited until second semester of high school and completed it by just working about a day a week for less than half the semester. the rest of the stuff he mentions is mandatory.

[not systems]

48. It is not good.

I worked for pay in high school. Kerry was taking
sailboat rides with JFK at the same age I was washing
dishes 30 hours a week.

I oppose all mandatory service.

Picure the people who would run these programs it
would end up like a boot camp ran by failed football
coaches. Like a manditory extra gym class. Most
community service would be picking up garbage on
the road side without the orange jumpsuit.

[Lady President]

67. Yes!

I think this is a wonderful idea and the people who don't like it are just those who hate Kerry in general. Hate him for his Iraq vote, but take the time to read about this program before bashing it.

1. The summer service program is VOLUNTARY. I can't begin to say how disgusting it is to compare a voluntary program with financial compensation to slavery as many on this thread have done.

2. The number of hours of service is not listed in the proposal, so to say that students couldn't participate in other activities and this program is silly. I went to a high school where community service was required. How much? 80 hrs. total for four years and it could be done in the summer too. Most of these plans in effect around the country require 50-100 during high school. I refuse to believe that high school kids don't have an average of a half-hour a week to spare to help others.

3. Most decent colleges want to see community service anyways, so there wouldn't be an added burden on many students.

4. I think it would be enlightening for rich suburban students to see a slightly more complete picture of the world.

5. There are many other requirement for schools that are mandatory. We require gym because it is supposed to start a lifetime of physical fitness, and this could start many people on the road to a lifetime of volunteerism.

Bottom line, I've come to terms with people hating Kerry, but this is a program that should be read carefully by everyone before dismissing it.

[JI7]

70. VERY good points

you laid it out well. people are attacking it by making false claims about it. by claiming the summer program is mandatory when it is not. and by assuming the high school service means working in jobs regularly do for pay, when in reality it's things like helping another student with school work or spending time with people at a retired home type "work".

[in_cog_ni_to]

72. I don't hate Kerry

I like him. However, I do not like that program. Why would you assume that just because someone doesn't agree with the program, they hate Kerry? That is a big leap you made there.

[fujiyama]

71. Interesting proposal...

but I don't think it makes sense for the federal government to mandate this. I think it would be good if most high schoolers did some sort of community service, but I remember how much I bitched and moaned about it when I was taking a course that did require it.

Kerry obviously has the right idea in that he thinks building more of a sense of community would be a good thing. I agree, but American society is not structured that way. It's more disconnected and individualistic. The fact is that many high schoolers have to raise money for college since it is so expensive in this country.

I think a better idea would be to offer incentives for people that do some community service -- volunteering at homeless shelters and soup kitchens, tutoring kids in poor areas, etc. I'm sure there would be more people that would do these things if there was some incentive -- the best thing would probably be some kind of college grant/scholarship sort of thing. I do believe that these experiences would be more useful than flipping burgers, or bagging groceries, or some other mindless task. That way, the money would be used to further those persons' education, while at the same time having other benefits for society.

Mandating would be unweildy and impractical though. Many high schools already have some sort of community service requirement. Such requirements would best be made at the local level.

[JVS]

73. No, I don't support this.

I also wonder how many of the people who do support this would support it if it were a proposal by Bush.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

117. Well.... Bush didn't but he should have

and he should have done it on Sep. 12, 2001, because that was the day when everyone in America was looking for something, ANYTHING to do to help their fellow Americans. Instead, Bush just told everyone to "hug each other" and that all they need do is get back into their SUV's and pretend America was just swell and that we could all go merrily back to our somnambulent ways.

The fact John Kerry has proposed such a plan and that it is remotely unlike anything anyone else has shows that he has the vision and courage to be the leader this country so desparately needs at this juncture in our history.

[curse10]

75. You've completely spinned the story to what you want it to be

Your out-right hatred of Kerry is really showing and by twisting this around and not actually seeing it for what it is you are contributing to the massive flame-wars in GD.

[sangh0]

80. Which explains

why the thread starter hasn't posted ONE RESPONSE in his/her own thread.

Shameless

[KaraokeKarlton]

104. Oh gosh, sorry I had to fucking work

n/t

[sangh0]

106. Oh gosh! You still don't have time to post?

You've made several mistatements which have been pointed out in this thread, and the only point you can respond to is about your not posting?

You only posted to say you don't have time to post?

[curse10]

108. Ya know, with all the carting the kids around

Uphill, both ways. It's very demanding.

[KaraokeKarlton]

122. Do you work hard

at being hateful to people, or does it just come naturally? It's pretty disgusting to make light of the hard work of raising children. You obviously aren't a parent, which is probably a good thing.

[curse10]

132. It's pretty easy, when the other person is filled with hate as well

you obviously hate Kerry.

And yeah, I'm not a parent. Thank god- because, you know, I might actually teach my children that sometimes it's more important to care about other people than to care about myself. :eyes:

[KaraokeKarlton]

135. I don't hate Kerry...I hate his politics. There's a difference.

I hate this proposal for a number of reasons.

Do you always stereoytpe and hold bias against kids? This is typical of people who support programs such as the one we are discussing. It's really easy to sit back and imply that kids are selfish, lazy and self-indulgent when you aren't a parent. While you're talking about the importance of caring about others, perhaps you ought to consider heeding your own advice and care about America's youth, their feelings, their rights and stop holding bias against them. Kids today have more responsibilities than they did when I was a kid. Even very young children have had most of their recesses taken away and they work harder than ever. My kids often come home with at least 2 hours worth of homework and studying every night. So, they get up, go to school, work all day in school, take part in whatever activities they might have, come home to a couple of hours worth of homework, whatever chores they might have at home and some kids have to work part time if they want spending money or to save for their own car or their future. Their classes often hand out long term projects and assignments that require work on the weekends as well. Kids don't have a lot of free time for fun as it is. Now you want to add even more burdens on them? Those in favor of this ridiculous idea of forced "volunteerism" are talking about how kids need to have "responsibilities" as American citizens. Well, kids don't have the rights of American citizens. They can't vote. They are basically stuck having to abide by whatever adults decide they should have to abide by. There is more potential for abuse against the human rights of children in this country than perhaps any other group. The elderly and disabled face this as well, but at least they have full rights as American citizens and in most cases have the right to self determination. It is careless to just slap things like this onto America's youth. It's wrong, immoral and abuse of authority, plain and simple.

[curse10]

139. I don't have a bias against kids

just your kids. Two hours of homework? The way you are talking about them it makes like they don't even have time to eat. We all know that's crap.

I wasn't in highschool that long ago. I worked 30 hours a week. I was in band and orchestra. I took four ap classes on top of that. I volunteered for my various community service projects. Served on the board of principal's advisory committee. I did my chores, and WHAT? I had spare fucking time. (Oh, and I practiced my viola for three-four hours a day, I had to get a scholarship to college because my family was dirt fucking poor). Was it tough? Yep. Did I complain? No. And, shit, I'm in lawschool and I don't have two hours of homework a night. If your kids have two hours of homework something is either a, wrong with the school or b, wrong with your kids. Deal with it and stop complaining about it on the board.

[KaraokeKarlton]

141. Do you always make attacks on the children of those you disagree with?

This is disgusting behavior. You should be ashamed of yourself. You also prove the point I was eluding to in the post you responded to.

[Skinner]

143. Both of you -- cut it out.

Thank you.

Skinner
DU Admin

[KaraokeKarlton]

145. With all due respect, Skinner...

My children are not members of this site and do not post here. They are also minors. I don't feel it's appropriate for anyone to criticize any member's children. As a parent it is my responsibility to stand up for my children. Not only is that what I am doing by opposing the proposal in the first place, but it is also what I am doing in this post. I will do my best not to cross the line on this thread. I also must ask that you take a minute to think about whether or not rude comments about a member's children should be allowed to stand.

Thank you.

[curse10]

146. Cool dude

I'm just gonna have to start putting Dean supporters on ignore before I get tombstoned.

[KaraokeKarlton]

110. Can I have some cheese and crackers with that whine?

Oh, I have to take my son to a game in a couple of minutes, so I'll be gone again for at least a couple of hours. I'll be sure to let you know when I'm going to log off from now on since you're so concerned about my posting habits... :eyes:

[sangh0]

112. That's not neesary

Just let me know when you plan to post so I know when to debunk your fallacious arguments.

[KaraokeKarlton]

120. spell much?

n/t

[oldcoot]

77. No, I do not support this plan

I have concerns about the implementation of this plan. I am concerned about the fact that Kerry would allow the states to determine what is or is not appropriate community service. The problem is that many families more around. It would be tragic if a student was not allowed to graduate because the community service he or she performed in Rhode Island does not count as community service in Idaho.

Another problem is that rural areas do not have as many opportunities for community service as urban areas. I use to work in a small Wyoming town that was literally in the middle of nowhere. There were no retirement homes, daycare centers, museums, soup kitchens, etc. The nearest town that would have any opportunities for community service is approximately 40 miles away.

We should not forget the issue of supervision. While a seventeen-year old probably will not need much supervision, you need to watch thirteen, fourteen, and fifteen-year olds closely. People who are not trained educators do not necessarily understand how much supervision teenagers require. Therefore it is necessary to determine who will be responsible for supervising the child while the child does his/her community service. Will a teacher be watching the student or will it be the responsibility of the manager for the charity or participating program?

Finally, I wonder if forcing students to perform community service is really the best way to build character. Will they see it as a valuable experience or just simply another hurdle that they have to jump?

[ButterflyBlood]

78. none of it sounds forced except the graduation requirement

which I don't agree but since I've already graduated I really don't care. And high school kids can't vote (except seniors who won't be affected by it anyway), although this could turn them off to the Democratic party once they can.

[Deja Q]

81. Yes

What else can be done, as a starters, to reinvigorate the concept of "community"?

Heck, I wish I could get 4 years of college that easily... But if that becomes simple to get, doesn't its relevence get depleted as well?

[sangh0]

82. Where is KaraokeKarlton?

I would have thought KK would be interested in discussing this instead of flaming and running

[KaraokeKarlton]

105. I was at work

not that it's any of your damn business.

[molly]

113. Don't get snippy when someone asks this question - after all

you started it. I think John Kerry has a lot of "points" concerning how to get this country back on track. Please try to be logical -

[KaraokeKarlton]

121. "snippy"?

You're a real piece of work, molly...really, you are. :eyes:

[ProfessorGAC]

83. I Agree With Your Proposal

No, i do not like mandatory service. It's no different than the military draft, and i certainly oppose that.
The Professor

[Selwynn]

97. No.

I don't support the mandatory requirements given here, and I think its the wrong way to go about strenghting community. I think there should be voluntary programs, aimed and campaigns to increase awareness and to provide incentives.

I think it should not be "do this or will do something negative to you" but rather "do this and will do something positive for you." So I guess my talking counter-point would be "incentives not punishments"

[incapsulated]

107. Yes

I do.

:thumbsup:

[blkgrl]

114. would rich kids and private school students be exempt?

Even if they aren't, Kerry needs to keep in mind that not all families can afford to spend valuable time doing community service and what not.

[sangh0]

115. Good point

IMO, there ought to be a hardship exemption in there for those people who have a real problem fulfilling this requirement. However, I would like to point out that community service can be fulfilled during school time by tutoring other students, or some other activity on school grounds during school hours.

[Garage Queen]

116. Mandatory? and for High School? No.

Many high school students DO volunteer already to have an extra "bullet point" on their college application. And some kids (poorer students especially) HAVE to work all the hours they can in order to help support themselves/their families.

But, as others have mentioned, the two years of volunteering in exchange for 4 years of college is a GREAT idea! We would have to provide the students/volunteers with room and board, naturally, but what a great way to help poor kids get a higher education. How about spending time in Appalacia or the rural South or an Indian Reservation teaching students (and adults) to read? or helping with "public projects"?

I would also support med students Voluntarily working in impoverished neighborhoods/areas of the country for a set amount of time (2 years? 4?) in order to have their medical school bills forgiven. Going to be a Plastic Surgeon and don't need your debt taken care of? No problem. Don't volunteer.

But...the basic problem here is: if it's MANDATORY, then (by definition) it can't be VOLUNTARY..

[Kitsune]

119. Hooray for mandatory voluntary service.

In other words, HELL F*CKING NO.

[KaraokeKarlton]

123. kick

for the night-time crowd.

[David Zephyr]

124. I Think Kerry's Proposal Has Merit.

I'm not sure about mandatory, though.

[aquart]

125. I have been in favor of a universal national service for 35 years.

But then, I also want a national system of aqueducts regulating water from parts of the nation that have too much to parts in drought.

[KaraokeKarlton]

126. How about the mandatory part?

It's dangerous for the government to start trying to mandate what people do during their free time. What if the government decides teen pregnancies need to be dealt with and order mandatory birth control for all teenagers? Or mandatory sterilization for the poor? Or mandatory military service? Or mandatory drug testing in the workplace and schools?

Sorry...but placing mandates on anyone's personal time is WRONG.

[HPLeft]

127. I'll have to think about this

This is the first I've seen of this. It is certainly provocative.

I tend to be a communitarian, so I do think that the idea of giving back to the community in exchange for certain kinds of aid might be a reasonable proposition. But I'm not sure that I'd make it mandatory, and would rather have the program be optional.

We Americans are pretty darn selfish, and I'm not clear how this kind of proposal would sell in a general election.

For those individuals who claim that Kerry isn't taking risks, I humbly submit that this proposal put that charge completely to rest. This is very risky, and I'm sure that it reflects his deep feeling for community service, and his authentic love of country. This clearly isn't a political gambit for Kerry. I'm just not sure that most Americans share his feeling or his idealism.

[KaraokeKarlton]

128. I sure don't share his feelings on this

I'm royally pissed off about it.

[KaraokeKarlton]

129. The government forcing kids to work against their will is exploitation

We have child labor laws for a reason. I also take serious issue with Kerry wanting to aggressively pursue the recruitment of my children into the military. Teenagers are impressionable and many are easily influenced by pushy recruiters. There is NO WAY I want my kids being harassed by military recruiters.

[curse10]

154. They are already harassed by military recruiters

Once you have a kid who is a senior in highschool you'll be getting the phone calls three times a week.

As much as you'd like to pin that on Kerry, you just can't.

And, for the umpteenth time, Kerry is NOT supporting child labour. Jeesh. :eyes:

[KaraokeKarlton]

130. kick

for the night owls.

[texas is the reason]

133. enter....Kerry Youth!!! seig heil ! suprised * didn't come up with this.

[revcarol]

134. Absolutely not.

Mandatory national service would be OK for older people, BUT there would have to be numerous options to serve besides the military...and these would have to have the same pay and benefits as the military, including college $$.

Only about 10% of high school kids are mature enough to do this.This from a woman who taught high school for 13 years.

Unions ought to be informed that he supports "cheap labor." Especially SEIU, which is trying to organize low-paid service workers.

[KaraokeKarlton]

136. I read a report about illegal child labor in this country

And Kerry's wife's company was found to be buying items to use in their products from places that use illegal child labor. Last I knew Heinz was "investigating" these practices. I could probably find a link about the report. I'm not claiming he knew this was happening, but it's pretty common knowledge that migrant farm workers often include illegal child labor. Since Heinz uses an awful lot of tomatoes in their products they should know there is a risk of this and they should regularly visit the places their tomatoes come from to make sure they aren't buying from places that use illegal child labor. Some of the kids in the report were as young as 4 years old. I don't think John Kerry is in any position to dictate any mandatory work for children. As a parent, I am offended by his proposal.

[ButterflyBlood]

138. I don't think the military or any form of draft is mentioned in this

however, I still don't support the graduation aspect of his plan.

[KaraokeKarlton]

137. Another kick

To inform parents and voters about this horrible idea Kerry has to infringe upon the rights of our children.

[Name removed]

140. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KaraokeKarlton]

142. Apparently attacking my children isn't enough for you

So you have to call me a liar now too? That's against the rules, in case you don't realize it. Also, it's simply not true. I haven't lied. I stated what Kerry's web page says, provided the link to his page, stated that I don't like him, who I support and shared my view of this proposal he has made. Many view the proposal in the same way that I do. You're just angry because I shared this information with other voters and a lot of people don't like what Kerry wants to do. You know, you might not like that I started this thread, but at least I am criticizing Kerry on valid points instead of the many imagined and trumped up points I see Dean criticized on by some Kerry supporters. Oh, and I didn't copy and paste Kerry's proposal and add my own words to it in order to convince people that the word "mandatory" doesn't really "mean" "mandatory".

Touche'...

[dkf]

144. Everyone who agrees with this proposal

should immediately volunteer for community service themselves.

It's so easy to feel altruistic by making others do good deeds for free.

Frankly, most people in our nation are steeped in the same apathy so I don't see why we target kids.

[curse10]

155. Some of us already do

And, yeah, let's continue to build a nation filled with apathy. :eyes:


Sometimes to create change you have to target the young.

[Name removed]

147. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KaraokeKarlton]

148. I posted what was on his web page

IF the proposal on the summer part of his plan isn't mandatory he ought to say so on his webpage instead of expecting people to download files to find out. My problem with the proposal is the mandatory service portion of it. I see no problem with anything being voluntary. I DO take issue with him wanting to push for getting more kids to enlist in the military, Recruiters would be doing this and they are constantly pressuring kids to join up.

If anything I wrote is at all off the mark you should complain to Kerry because what I wrote is exactly what I read from the link that I provided in my first post.

[George_Bonanza]

151. My message deleted?

What did I say that merited a delete? I spent a lot of time writing that. It had many valid points in it too. Sheesh. I hope you got to read it before it got deleted. If you got offended, then I'm sorry.

The PDF link is right there. Only an idiot would miss it. And it's not some 60 page thesis on national service, it's a big-fonted 6 page leaflet that can be perused in 2 minutes. Basically, you're adding your hate of a candidate based on his web design which you felt was insufficient. That's not a good reason. If you were an impartial voter looking for a candidate and their platforms, and you were alarmed by his national service policy, then you would've clicked on that easy-to-find link to probe further to gain a full conclusion. Instead, it seems that you were just content to seek any kind of potential dirt on Kerry and because there were no custom-made flashing neon signs saying, "Not Mandatory!!!" it's somehow Kerry's fault, when you could've easily clicked on that link to read over 6 pages of size 20+ font that further elaborated on that issue.

Nowhere on his plan does he say he especially wants kids to enlist in the military, it merely says he wants more Americans in the army. Him being an army guy, and with our men stretched out in Iraq as it is, that position is understandable. He's simply expressing a desire to keep the American military as manned and fit as possible. Howard Dean also shares this view. It says that he will disallow banning the ROTC (Army Reserve Officer Training Corps) on campus grounds, but the ROTC isn't necessarily pure military recruitment. It is a officer/leadership course in college that has multiple applications, whether in business, volunteerism, etc.

[KaraokeKarlton]

153. It's against the rules to call someone a liar

His issue page implies that most of what he proposes is mandatory other than the 2 years of service in exchange for 4 years of college. That is the only thing that clearly states is not mandatory. The diploma requirement states it's mandatory and the other things he lists implies it would be a requirement and doesn't tell readers otherwise. I don't often download files because I don't like spyware and such. The page also clearly states that he wants to work hard to recruit more young people into the military. I can remember the recruiters who came to my school. I certainly don't want anyone encouraged to pressure my kids. Teenagers have enough of that already.

[George_Bonanza]

157. Where does it say that he specifically wants KIDS to enlist?

It simply says he wants more Americans to strengthen our military, which is a position that Dean also shares. Obviously, strengthening our military means getting the best and brightest into it so we don't have to use reserves. If you're so appalled at this, then you should equally be hesitant about Dean. I read in one of his speeches where he said he wants America's military to be the best equipped and the best trained in the world. I'm presuming he knows that a strong miltary is also manned properly, aka full of bright new recruits.

I doubt John Kerry would add spyware to his own website. And even if there was, your paranoia of spyware prevents you from making sure you're not exaggerating fears, at the risk of sounding wrong?

[gully]

156. Service for college yes, the rest NO!

[mndemocrat_29]

158. I think this is a terrible idea

n/t