My niece - your input in the situation?

[The Straight Story]

(please read history & story of this as well)

My niece this weekend asked me to borrow 550 for an abortion, she is 4 months pregnant. Initiallt my wife and I said yes, but after some thought we changed our minds.

History:
Me: I live next door to dad (and mom until she passed on 12/31/04). My niece has lived with them since she was 12, she is 26 now and still lives there.

Niece: 26, liberal, agnostic/new ager. Her BF of several years plays a lot of video games and works part times at a toy store, she is not working now. She spent a lot of time yelling at my mom (and now regrets that) over things from how can goods were stored in the cupboard to other minor things.

Mom and dad have given a home these many years no matter what.

Dad is RW christian, but liberal on other things.

Story:

After she asked me I decided, after much thought, to call dad. My fear was she would get the money from him and not tell him what it was for - and with his cancer and mom dying that would pain him to no end.

Dad had a talk with her. Said he would not give her the money either. But he would move out of his bedroom, clean up the family room, and sleep on a bed in small bedroom and pay her medical bills if she would keep it. My sister and I both agreed to adopt the baby. None of us would front the money for the abortion though (she is my brother's daughter and he won't pay for it either).

Over the 14 years she has lived there mom and dad have done everything they could to help her, including letting her BF live there as needed. Dad knows she has her own faith, but he does not judge her on that - she is family and he loves her as such. Even if she has the abortion he says she is welcome there, that is her choice. He just won't pay for it - neither will I.

She now says we are forcing to have a 'parasite' she does not want. She has hardly work since she was 18, dad has gotten her a car which she said she would paid for and has not.

Despite these things I mention above she is generally a nice and honest person, she just lives in a dream world where she thinks she should be given land and wants to be a photographer but makes no effort to learn about it.

I feel bad (well, not too much) that I told dad, and that I told her I would lend her the money and then changed my mind. My wife and I desperately want another child and would glady take it in, as would my sister.

Now they are mad at us all and she left with her BF today to spend some time at a friend's house.

I hope she comes too and cuts us all some slack. We all love her. Dad is going in for cancer treatment soon (he should be ok) and her dilemma is weighing heavy on his mind. He will watch the baby, retire so he can help out, and do all he can to help - and now she is mad we won't give the money (nor will he) and hold us responsible if she has to have it (and she told dad if she has the baby she will take it and leave).

I am just pissed right now and hurting for her, so many want to help her and she is mad at the people who are reaching out. Even if she has the abortion, that is her decision, and we will love her. We just won't pay for it.

Sorry for the rant, just needed to get some thoughts out.

[GeorgeBushytail]

1. All I can do is wish you well

[Extend a Hand]

2. I think you

should loan her the money. BTW, in some places planned parenthood might have $$ available to loan to cover part of the cost.

She certainly doesn't sound ready to raise a child. And if you want to know how giving up a baby effects birth-mothers...go read the stories on any adoption board.

--adoptee.

[The Straight Story]

3. My wife was adopted

And has had an abortion (when she was 19 I think she said).

We agreed to raise her baby and let her have it back when she was ready, we have a daughter of our own as well.

My view has come to settle on - if she wants the abortion her BF can sell his video games and art supplies to pay for it.

[Extend a Hand]

8. I hope it works out well for all involved

it's a difficult time I'm sure.

[Matariki]

107. hmmm, maybe that or child support payments from him?

[oldcoot]

133. Oh, boy!

It is your money and you can do what you want with it. You are under no obligation to loan your niece money. However, I am afraid that you might be in for a lot of pain and misery.

You say that you are willing to raise the kid and then return the kid to your niece anytime that she wants. The problem with this idea is that it is much easier to give up an abstract child than it is a real child. Once you start to raise this child, you will probably become very attached to the child and the child to you. After a period of one or more years, will you truly be able to give that child up? What if your niece decides to move to a different part of the country and take her child with her?

[Dorian Gray]

281. Just my opinion...

I don't think you should pay for the abortion if you feel uncomfortable with the process. Having been adopted myself, I've thought about what I would have done had I gotten pregnant in H.S. I didn't have sex until I was older, which was my decision based upon my beliefs. When a girlfriend of mine became pregnant and asked me for help, I was there for her emotionally, but I did not aid her financially. It's just something that I didn't feel comfortable with.

PP also will aid her in the termination. And her friend can sell his game, as you said. This is their responsibility. If you felt comfortable helping them, then it's your decision. But, you don't for your own reasons, and there is no need to feel that you are a terrible relative for those reasons.

[hiley]

4. All I can do wish your family well

and hope everything will work out soon.
I can not give you advice except to say do what is in your heart.
Good thoughts go to you and your niece.
Edit to say Please send love to your father too.

[shireen]

5. for what it's worth ...

I think you all did the right thing. She needs to be an adult and take responsibility for her own life.

If she decides to have the baby, I hope, by then, she will be mature and sensible enough to realize that you and your wife will give that dear innocent little child a wonderful home.

Your dad sounds like a really good man. Frankly, I'm more concerned about him than your niece. With his cancer treatments and worrying about your niece, he seems to be the one who needs the most support.

Take care, and don't kick yourself -- you've done your best.

[The Magistrate]

6. Very Bad Family Response, Sir

If the money was available, it should have been provided. The decision is her's, and no one else's. The family has the right not to support the decision, of course, but having a right, and it being the right thing to do, are very different concepts. In my view, family members are to support one another unconditionally, in crisis particularly, and in that regard, this is a very poor performance. The results of this will not be good....

[The Straight Story]

9. Had she been younger, perhaps

But she has many years to make a life and have money of her, she has chosen to sponge off mom and dad and do nothing, and save nothing. No bills, she spends her money on sushi and pot.

I have more then enough money to help out right now, but she has chosen not to use birth control and not to have a penny to her name. She has quit more jobs then I will ever have because she wanted to hang out with friends and work got in the way.

For anything else, dad or I would help out without a doubt. And even now we will help out will all expenses, houses, food, etc to get her on her feet and make sure neither she or the baby would have any wants.

She dreams of things, but will not work to get them - then gets angry when she does not have them.

I do feel bad for her. She is mad at me, but I welcome her back with open arms and will forget the past and just be there for her.

SHE has limited her choices, not I.

[Lars39]

12. But you want to compound her lack of choices.

[The Magistrate]

23. You, Sir, Are Making This Choice

She may have placed herself in a position where she cannot fend for herself in this particular matter, but in this particular matter you are choosing yourself to act in a particular way, and for reasons of your own. You cannot evade your own responsibility for your own choice anything like as easily as that. You are determining what the next decades of her life will be, and ensuring that they will unfold in a pattern you think will suit you, and that she has made clear will not suit her. If you are doing this out of a moral belief that is to me the merest phantasmic abstraction, you can hardly expect me to endorse the act: upholding the purity of one's own moral life is never an excuse or justification for physically constraining or harming another person. The choice you have made, Sir, mark my words, does and will do both. If she ever forgives you, she is a far better person than me: someone who treated me as you are treating her, particularly a family member, would have made a life-long enemy.

[deadparrot]

26. Yet the OP stated that the niece has had ample opportunity

to get and keep a job, earn some money for herself, yet she's quit her work and chosen to party, etc.

$550 is a good chunk of change, but it's not insurmountable. She's also 26 years old and unemployed by choice, apparently.

[The Magistrate]

29. Immaterial, Ma'am, to Me

A present situation must be dealt with as it is at present: that it might have developed differently of things had gone differently in the past makes no difference at all.

[deadparrot]

42. Then I suppose we (respectfully) disagree.

This young woman is unemployed by choice. She's apparently refusing to pursue any other avenues of finding the money. She's being willfully lazy and immature. There's no reason why her family should have to shell out unlimited dollars just to please her.

I can certainly understand your position in believing that the OP should lend her the money; pregnancy isn't an issue to be trifled with IMO. But to act like the young woman has every right to not forgive her family seems a bit harsh on the OP.

I don't know her at all, but *it sounds like* she needs to at least make a concerted effort to come up with the money some other way, to prove that she is serious about approaching the situation in an adult manner. If she does do that, then maybe the OP and family should rethink, or offer the money as a loan. At some point, though, she has to help herself.

[The Magistrate]

45. Indeed, Ma'am

She does not seem to be behaving like a responsible adult: we are certainly in agreement there as well. But the issue, as framed by Mr. Shooter, is his own action, and that is all that concerns me here.

[deadparrot]

49. I agree that promising the money, then pulling it back again

probably wasn't the best way to go about it.

It's hard without knowing the players in this situation as well as the OP does. We're only getting a few sentences about each person. It's certainly understandable, but it doesn't really make for good analysis.

[The Magistrate]

56. That Is True, Ma'am

We have only one side of the story, and where the outcome is what this one is described as, you may take it from someone with grown children if his own that there is good deal lying behind the current situation. But ithas seemed best to refrain from speculation along those lines....

[The Straight Story]

61. It's Mr. Story :) (not Shooter)

I understand and respect your view. *I* was wrong to offer and then change my mind about the money. No issue there. I failed in that.

But would you loan a niece money to help out the * campaign if she needed it? Where would you draw the line?

I don't like abortion, but I sure as hell want it legal, safe, and available for those that want it. But to ask others to fund it because you don't want to seems a bit over the top to me.

From knowing her I think she really wants the baby, but her BF does not and she wants to please him. Her decision seems more based on what he wants than what she wants.

Of course I may be 100% wrong. But then he has said he does not think things with them will last forever - and now she is faced with having his child/their child and it may well be that to appease him she is going to destroy the one thing she has always wanted.

Who am I helping here? Her or him? This is one of the things which made me question things. She is pregnant, not sure of herself, scared of change, and so she wants things to stay the same. If I help her am I really helping her???

Too much for me really at times to consider, so I backed off.

I will give you my guess:

She wants to keep it. Fears losing him. Fears change. And needs time to sort it out instead of a quick fix from her uncle.

[Matariki]

65. Mr. Story

I respect your thoughtfulness and obvious caring. Not to mention the grace with which you handle harsh criticism to an obviously difficult and personal decision.

Bright blessings on you and your family.

[The Straight Story]

73. I was married to satan's daughter

for 10 years, nothing anyone says here bothers me now :)

I have been wrong before, and I was wrong to offer to help then change my mind. I am ok with that. I made a snap decision, then thought about it, then realized I was wrong.

Being wrong is one thing, not fixing things when you think you were wrong is another.

[The Magistrate]

82. My Apologies, Sir, For Futzing Your Name

If it is my worst error today, it will be an occassion for rejoicing.

Lines are always difficult to draw, and always drawn arbitrarily, but the things you have contrasted are pretty clearly seoperated by a wide gulf, and we are both old enough to forgoe the demonstration of that.

Having had several sharp lessons concerning the quality of my abilities to read other peoples' minds, it has long been my habit to take what people say concerning their desires and feelings at face value, and not consider my view of what they might "really want" instead of much worth. Your niece, as you tell us, has asked you for a particular help, and it is my view you would do best to give it, in the circumstances as you have outlined them. We have, it seems to me, somewhat diferent views on things, and so it is no surprise we would not choose the same course in this, and probably in many other situations.

You and your niece certainly have my best wishes for a favorable outcome, whatever course you choose. It is certainly not an easy situation, for any of you.

[The Straight Story]

92. I have always enjoyed your postings here (ever been pregnant??)

and hold no grudge on this.

Help given is not always best described as that which the recipient wants.

Ever been pregnant?? I have not myself (being a male). My wife, and my previous wife, were both pregnant at some time in our relationship. Hormones change. Feelings changes. Ideas and thoughts changes.

My niece loves kids. Always wanted her own. Never thought she could have one. Now she is pregnant. Her BF is scared shitless, and wants her to dump it and move on. She had doubts, but she also wants to please him.

She is scared, confused, and as someone who has known her, her whole life, uncertain.

Giving her an easy out alleviates the need for her to think this through for herself. Handing her the cash does, to me, one thing - takes away her ability to reason. She is acting on impulse.

Sure, I may be way wrong on this (but I doubt that). But offering her an easy out seems more wrong than right.

She is confused, scared, and by her own actions alone. The people most willing to help her she is alienating herself from. For what? A BF who prefers video games to working to make a better life for them both.

I want what is best for her - not a quick fix at some clinic. And if she chooses that route, I will still be here to support her and a shoulder to cry on. As will my wife, dad, sister, et al.

[Avalon Sparks]

96. Abortion is NOT an easy out...

There are consequences of having an abortion too.

At this point you cannot protect your neice from any of the three choices there are when it comes to a pregnancy.

There are consequences no matter which alternative one chooses. Abortion is not an easy out. It's often an extremely difficult choice that comes after much consideration of the pros and cons of having the baby.

[Matariki]

103. have you considered offering to pay for some (non-religious) counseling

for her to work these things out on her own?

[The Magistrate]

111. Wife Has Been, Sir

Best to stay out of the way then, has been my experience.

It seems to me that you are entering this with the conviction that what she says she wants is not what is best for her, and the dichotomy you posit between "a quick fix at some clinic" and "what is best for her" strikes me as a false one. Nor does it strike me as a safe to believe that she is acting on impulse without reasoning: a man can get things thrown at him for that. That she is scared and confused is doubtless true, and when people are scared and confused, they want above all else not to be. From what you have described, it would be easy to conclude that she is not well suited to raising a child, and especially not to doing so on her own. But to pursue that would get us off the only point can really be discussed here, which is the choice you are making about what you yourself will do in this situation. No one who ever said they knew better than me what was best for me ever struck me as right, and my suspicion is that that is a pretty universal feeling, and so it seems to me that if you act on such a conviction, you will be laying in a store of grief, and not just for yourself, down the road.

[kitkat65]

265. Having a child should be a gift NOT A PUNISHMENT!

Yeah, your niece's life is a mess and she's been fucking up quite a bit of it. But, do you really expect her to make the best decisions for the child if she can't make them for herself? And those decisions would include whether or not to adopt to strangers, or to you, or to keep and try to raise it with her loser boyfriend.

You say you support whatever choice she makes, but where's the choice without the means? If she is to have an abortion within the first trimester time is running out and she may not be able to get that money in time by herself.

I don't mean to sound judgemental - just an opinion.

Good luck.

[tblue37]

288. They aren't limiting her choices at all.

She can have the abortion. They just don't plan to pay for it. Are you limiting her choices by not loaning her the money? No? Well, neither am I. The fact that they are family doesn't mean they owe her abortion money any more than we do. She limited her own choices by refusing to use birth control. Now her family is offering to be there for her and the baby if she chooses to have it, and for her and the boyfriend if they have the abortion. The only thing the family isn't doing is agreeing to pay for the abortion.

The idea that you always give family members anything they demand, unconditionally, no questions asked, is precisely what creates such spoiled, immature people with such an outrageous sense of entitlement. Perhaps if her family's love and support had had a few more questions and conditions attached in the past she would not be such a layabout now.

Notice too her attempt at emotional blackmail: If you don't give the the money for the abortion, I will have the baby and then take it away from here so you will have to worry about me and the baby all the time--and I don't give a damn if it stresses Grandpa out while he tries to deal with his cancer.

The family has made many mistakes with this young woman. She was simply not raised to be a responsible adult. Obviously they loved her a lot but didn't realize that teaching a child self-discipline is part of love. There seems to be some real codependency going on here. But they absolutely do not owe her money for an abortion.

[alphafemale]

290. Agree. She can pawn the title of the car they GAVE her.

If she wants an abortion so bad.

There's no reason a 26 yr old with no other finacial obligations or having to worry about feeding themselves couldn't sell or pawn something and come up with $550.

[The Straight Story]

28. Why I disagree

My Mom just died, dad is sick with cancer, and they have worked like hell to support her. No bills, No rent, dad gives her money for gas and food.

She has chosen not to do anything - her BF could sell his X box and other game consoles to pay for this, they just want someone to hand them the money (again).

She has not used birth control in 2 years. She said she always wanted kids but did not think she could ever have them. Her BF sure does not want them (but I suspect she does deep down). Now he is leaving her holding the bag, and she has done nothing to alleviate the situation - and has done nothing in years to shore up her life.

I am not responsible for her decisions. I could help her out of this with cash, but she has made no effort to help herself. I am willing to help in any way possible with the child - including paying for her expenses, getting her mental help, helping on dr bills, and so on.

She wants what she wants - why is that my responsibility?

[The Magistrate]

35. That Does Not Address My Point, Sir

You are making a choice. You have your reasons for it, doubtless. But it strikes me as the wrong choice, and one that, if you hew to it, will have consequences you will regret.

[BlackVelvet04]

301. And that was their choice.....

her irresponsibility could have been addressed years ago. Obviously it wasn't, so why use her pregnancy as the tool?

[BeTheChange]

41. Im sorry.. but, are you crazy?

That is just insane. It is not anyone else's responsibility to pay for an abortion for a 26 year old fully functioning woman and her lazy ass boyfriend.

The guilt trip you are laying on this man is beyond the pale.

I suggest you have him PM you the girl's address so that you may send her a check. From other posts you have made, Im sure you are not without means.

I just cannot even comprehend what you just said. It's just so out in the stratosphere I feel like my head is going to explode.

If you would become the life long enemy of someone who made their own choice not to pay for your mistakes and they are family, who exactly are you preaching about family to?

The OP is not in the wrong here.

[IdaBriggs]

127. In further reading, you broke her confidence re: a private matter.

Abortion aside, you have behaved inappropriately. She has a right to be mad at you for this reason.

Let me be clear: you had a right to say NO about loaning money for a purpose you did not agree with, but you have made HER personal business "family business."

It was a very DYSFUNCTIONAL decision on your part. I am not sure your crime is forgivable, especially since you seem unable to understand how many inappropriate boundaries you have crossed.

[The Straight Story]

341. A little aside to that

When she talked to dad she said 'I knew someone would tell you, I am glad they did' - she wanted him to know, but could not tell him herself.

My dad never knew my wife had had an abortion when she was younger, but my niece made sure she told him when the discussion came up (something my wife confided in her and myself only). No need for dad to know that. But I am not upset over the fact (and dad was not either).

Dad is closer to her than anyone else, and she needed help. I did not rush off and call him. I debated doing so for some time. When I first called him I did not tell him, made up some other excuse as to why I called.

But I knew he could help her out more than anyone else could. They would talk. And have been. She needed that, and maybe it will help her decide. From what dad told me today he is worried her BF is pressuring her even more to do this, and maybe threatining her in more ways then one.

She loves kids, always hoped to have them. Now she is confused and scared. Had I given her the money it would be done by now - and now she is not 100% sure it is what she wants.

[sbj405]

184. I'm not sure what lesson not giving the money teaches her

Frankly, I think a lot of things need to change whether or not she has the baby or not. And I say that being only 29 myself, she needs to grow up. Dad needs to start charging rent, sell the car, whatever. She lives in a dream world, but the family seems to be enabling the situation. Despite her age, she doesn't seem mature enough to make this decision. For example, why did she wait 4 months to ask for help?

Sorry, I know that's not much advice. This is a very tough situation for all parties involved. :hug:

[BlackVelvet04]

300. But....

"But she has many years to make a life and have money of her, she has chosen to sponge off mom and dad and do nothing, and save nothing. No bills, she spends her money on sushi and pot."

And the family has had many years to address her lack of responsibility.
Why use her pregnancy and force the issue NOW?

[fudge stripe cookays]

312. So now....

she's an expectant mother spending money on sushi and pot.

Have you considered the health consequences to the child? Speaking for myself, I went though this and chose the abortion. It matured my ass up right quick, knowing what a close call I'd had.

Like the saying says, "If you can't trust her with a choice, how can you trust her with a child?"

If she's that immature, that kid is going to be screwed from Day One. But neither you nor her father will be able to utter word one about it, since you enabled it.

Reneging when you told her you would help really sucks, IMO.

FSC

[shireen]

11. whoa ... wait a minute ...

She and her BF are responsible for this pregnancy. If they want to terminate it, they should come up with the cash. If she were a teenager, family financial support would be important. But she and her BF are adults, and they need to start acting like adults!

The family has done nothing wrong!!!

[StellaBlue]

20. I disagree

She is 26. So am I. 26 = adult. Why is the family (who is seems to me she is parasitic on) financially responsible for her?

If she wants an abortion, she can go get a bank loan and get a JOB to pay it back. Or she could go work for like TWO WEEKS and earn that much money.

I know several people who sound very similar, and it is very upsetting to watch the effect they have on the people who love them and try to help them.

But too much help creates permanent children, unable to function independently as adults. Who often have entitlement complexes.

Not that I can talk. I am unemployed and staying with relatives at the moment! But not by choice! And actively seeking work!

Anyway, best wishes to all involved. This is a very, very difficult situation.

[Scout]

188. without a job, no bank will loan her the money

and if she's as bad as they say, any job she can get will not pay her $550 in "like two weeks."

[BeTheChange]

33. Why dont you send it to her? nt

[Benbow]

175. And the next time she wants (another) abortion?

I'm with the people who suggest that the father should fork out.

But I'd rather the child was born and raised by people who will love him or her. Abortion is murder, tell her.

[timtom]

295. I disagree.

This is a very difficult choice for all involved. However, to provide the money is to totally abnegate the validity of the family's values. That is to say, the pregnant lass's seeming irresponsibility trump's the other members' profound beliefs.

Moreover, in providing the money, the family then takes on the role of enablers of a dysfunctional life style.

The father of the child has all the opportunity in the world to step up to the plate and...well...sell his video games, for openers.

[Arugula Latte]

7. I think it is terrible that other people can make this choice

for her by withholding money. I really think if she wants an abortion, she should be able to get one. This is one expense I wouldn't withhold money on.

[The Straight Story]

13. She has made this choice herself over the years

She does not have money because she will not hold onto it or a job. Since she was 18 she has worked on and off, quitting work to have fun and party - from pot to other drugs, to playing games to whatever.

We all have helped her out. Now we draw the line at one thing and it is terrible?

She had the power to change her life and have the money, and did not use it.

[Arugula Latte]

19. I know what you're saying. But this isn't like buying a car or something.

A very reluctant mother of a "parasite"? Not good.

[BlackVelvet04]

303. And the family

made a choice to support her in her irresponsibility. NOW they want to demand she be responsible, NOW when she is pregnant and scared they are going to teach her responsibility?

[RiDuvessa]

54. No one is making the choice for her

This woman could go to MCDONALDS, work for a month, and have enough money to pay for the abortion. Particularly if her father is supporting her in every other way.

Also, there are other options. A loan from the bank, a credit card, I think Planned Parenthood will also help her with money.

This person is a 26-YEAR-OLD woman! She should be able to find her own funding.

[tjdee]

165. Then she and HER BOYFRIEND can find the money herself.

She and her boyfriend are making the choice by waiting four months and not getting the money.

Instead of playing video games all day long, this guy had four months to take on some extra hours/get a job. Doesn't HE have a family/friends to ask for money?

[Lars39]

10. Here's my thought: sounds like coercement.

She doesn't want to have a child. Why should she have to give birth to make everyone else happy?

[The Straight Story]

18. She does not have to - we will be happy and love her either way

but we will not hand her the money for something we don't agree with.

I don't want to see her sad - we have offered alternatives, but she feels we owe it to her or we are 'forcing her'.

She has forced herself to this position by not keeping any job or saving any money. I even offered her BF a job making 4 times what he makes now, but he did not want it as it was too many hours (full time) and would cut into his game time. I have tried to get her work making a lot more then she was making before she quit - but she did not want an office job.

How much more can we do for her???

[CityDem]

53. Stand by your principles

If you are opposed to her having an abortion on moral grounds, stand by your principles. She is 26 years old and sounds like she has skated for years. If she wants to terminate the pregnancy, she should team up with her boyfriend and come up with the cash. It sounds as though your family has done everything possible to help this wayward relative.

[mtnester]

182. Good for standing by your principles, however, you offered the money

to her then broke her confidence by going to her father. During a serious time of stress for her.

Withholding it from her now, based on the multiple reasons you have mentioned, sounds like punishment to me for her "slacker" attitude. It truly does. I have read all the posts carefully by you, and they are critical of her attitude. Every time.

So, when you say how much more can we do for her? Talk with her, tell her you do not approve of what she is doing, but your original offer stands. Write down some terms of repayment for your loan (it should not be a gift) and let her move on.

Sometimes lessons learned are on both sides. You reneged on a promise that she asked for during a time of stress and anxiety for her. If you did not want to do it, you should have said no at the beginning. And you should have left her father OUT of the situation. First thing you did was run to him, even though you professed concern for his health situation at home.

Believe me, it was hard enough for her to come asking for this. No matter how she talks about her condition, it is not an easy thing. She will be scared, no matter her "tough talk."

AND before I get jumped here, yes, I have had an abortion. So I can speak to the stress of the situation. The fact that she is 26 and facing this problem and not 15 says she was at least practicing birth control, and sounds like something went wrong. It could have been a birth control method failure, antibiotic conflict, or some other situation. Did you know most pharmacists STILL do not warn women about the conflicts between antibiotics and their birth control pills? It is, IMO, a subtle way to harm women for using birth control by some (not all) pharmacists. Good ones remind you.

I am not asking you to reconsider, I am asking you to re-evaluate how you handled the situation. If this young woman finds the means on her own, she will NEVER come to you for anything again, since you broke a commitment and her confidence.

We don't get to choose the family we get, all we can do is love, support and counsel them along the way. You should have said no right away if the abortion issue bothered you, rather than get her hopes up in resolving a stressful situation for her.

My thoughts and prayers for a healing resolution to your family's crisis, all of them, are being sent your way. :)


Edits were for serious typos only.

[MissB]

325. Excellent advice.

[Scout]

189. The family is what made her a 26 year old child

ever heard of enabling? To allow her to continually abuse your good nature's, and sponge off the family for 8 years, and allow her to live in your homes and do drugs, and not work. What the hell did you expect she would do? Suddenly mature, totally change her way of thinking and grow up? Get real.

Loan her the money for the abortion, and tell her this is it--we'll help you get the abortion, but then you are responsible for yourself. Get a job and move, or just move, but after the abortion and at X date, you are moving out of the house and on your own.

Or at least charge her rent, and if she doesn't use it to get and keep a job, then the car is gone.

The family has taught her to remain a child at 26 by your actions for the past 8 years.

[StellaBlue]

238. I agree

I know someone who is in a VERY similar situation - only no drugs and no pregnancy. But totally incapacitated by her parents. No job, no hope, bad attitude, pays no rent, but manages to go shopping every weekend. ?!

NOT DOING HER ANY FAVORS.

What will happen when the family is all dead and she is really on her own?

[BlackVelvet04]

304. EXACTLY!!!!!!!! n/t

[UofIDem]

185. No one is making her do anything...

No one is forbidding her from having an abortion, or tying her to a chair to keep her from the clinic. She has every right to have an abortion (for at least 2 more weeks), but she certainly does not have the right to do it on someone else's dime.

People often confuse the right to choose to abort with a right to get it done with no strings attached. Unfortunately this is not a federally funded procedure and she needs to ante up. I'm 25 and have worked 2, sometimes 3 jobs at a time to get through school and have money for things that I like to do. Is it fun getting up some mornings at 4 a.m. to work in a warehouse? No. But sometimes that's what you need to do to get things you want. It sounds like it is high time for this girl to learn that lesson. She's got some time. You can come up with $550 working 4 or 5 nights at a decent chain restaurant, or she can spend time working to find a charitable program that provides money for this sort of thing and submitting an application. I looked for five minutes and already came up with a couple of possibile sources. Tell her she should try google.

But back to my original point, she is not being cooerced. In fact, it seems exactly the opposite. She is being told do whatever she wants, and that afterward, she will have the love and support of a caring family, which is better than you get in a lot of places.

[tblue37]

291. She doesn't have to have the child.

She can have an abortion. But she doesn't have the right to demand that other people in her family pay for it.

[preciousdove]

14. I think you did the right thing...

She was not wrong to ask. You are not wrong to say no based on your beliefs. If this is done with love on both sides it will work out.

[deadparrot]

15. That's one helluva situation.

Sorry I can't give you a straight answer.

In most situations, I'd say she's an adult, and if she needs $550, she's in a perfectly good position to earn the money herself. In any case, her actions do demonstrate a lack of maturity. Has she made a concerted effort to get and hold a job?

Then again, if she *doesn't* get the money, the birth of a baby has serious repercussions for her and the whole family.

Maybe consider the money a loan, and stick to it?

:shrug:

[SeattleGirl]

16. Hey Straight Story

I really appreciate the situation you are in, but you are not wrong in holding to your decision; neither is your wife or dad. I want to share a story with you, something I went through with my daughter. It may not help, but I'll share it anyway.

When my daughter was 18 or 19, she was still living with me and her stepdad. One night she was out with her boyfriend, and called to say she would not be coming home that night. I said, oh yes you will. She again said no. I admit I lost it and started yelling at her. She said, "I'll call you tomorrow when you have calmed down." (She's lucky she did not say that to my face as I was so angry she probably would have had a palm print on her cheek, and I am not a child beater!).

Anyway, I woke my husband and we talked about it. He suggested she pay 1/3 of all the household expenses. Since she wanted the rights of an adult, she could also take on the responsibilities. Well, he went back to bed, and I stayed up literally all night, trying to convince myself that it was okay, and she could do what she wanted, as she was out of high school.

But you know what? I couldn't do it. I just couldn't. I had come to a line in the sand and I just was not able to cross it. When she showed up the next day, I told her that I had decided (and had my husband's backing) to give her a choice: she could stay with us and abide by our wishes that she not stay out all night with her boyfriend, or she could move out. I said I was not throwing her out, but as she felt she could made adult decisions, I was giving her a decision to make. We talked for quite awhile, and I explained why I came to the decision I had. She decided to move out that day.

It was one of the most agonizing things I've gone through with her, but I felt I was right in what I decided. I had not given her the choice in anger or anything and I told her I loved her, and if for some reason she needed to come back here, she was always welcome.

Several weeks later, I was driving her somewhere and we were talking. She said she understood why I had decided what I did, and we have had a fine relationship. In fact, I think that was the start of her really growing into adulthood.

So Gman, stick to what you feel is right, keep letting her know you love her, and I'll send you good thoughts that all will work out for everyone.

:hug:

[Matariki]

58. i don't have children, so i don't think i can understand your reaction

why was it so important to you that she not spend the night with her boyfriend? so much so, that you wouldn't let her live with you anymore?

observing people i know with children, that sort of reaction always looks (to me) like a fear of mortality. i imagine one's children coming of age (and having sex) must always come as a shock to parents.

<edited for bad grammar>

[SeattleGirl]

63. You're right

I was up front with her and said that while I understood that she wanted to sleep with her boyfriend, I just could not be a front row cheerleader for it. Call me weird, but as I said, I wrestled with this all night, and I just could not be okay with it. And she did understand, and we are fine with each other. In fact, she's one of the coolest people I know!

[Matariki]

68. i'm a seattle girl too

just thought i'd wave.

my sister is struggling with these issues too, my nephew just turned 19 and my niece is a *very* mature 15 year old. they all get along amazingly well but she struggles with feeling old (on account of their age) and letting go of some control. i imagine it must be difficult.

[SeattleGirl]

71. Hey, back at ya!!

:hi:

[LeftyMom]

17. I don't think you have the right to deny her health care

Surely you can choose not to pay for her abortion, but the responsible thing would be to put her in touch with help on that front.

If you want another child get busy with the mrs, hire a surrogate or make arangements to adopt from somebody who has chosen to go that route. Don't exploit a young woman for your own needs. What the hell is this, The Handmaid's Tale? :grr:

[The Straight Story]

24. Not exploting

Offering choices to her.

She is free to do as she wishes, and we will love her either way. But why should I pay for something she could pay for if she would keep a job?

She has had plenty of jobs an oppurtunities, and turned them down or quit because she wants to do other things. Now she is in a bind and we have offered to help in many ways but one - and we have (as has dad) offered to cover all her medical expenses, housing, et al.

I am not denying her - it appears to me she has denied herself.

[LeftyMom]

39. How can she get a job 5 mos pregnant?

How long would it take to save up the $550 and would she still be able to get an abortion in that time? It gets less safe (and more expensive, possibly requiring out-of-state travel) the longer it's delayed.

You've decided that she's too irresponsible, so you reneged on your offer to loan her the money, and now you want somebody who is to unable to keep a job or scrape together $550 for a medical procedure to have a baby. Either you really haven't thought this through or you're exploiting her.

Doesn't strike me as especially progressive. :shrug:

[tjdee]

166. Well, why did they wait five months?

Her boyfriend isn't five months pregnant. What the hell is he doing?

[shireen]

27. no exploitation

read his message carefully again. He and his wife want another baby and will gladly adopt the kid IF the niece carries it to term. His refusal to pay for the abortion has nothing to do with coercing her into having the baby!

This is about a 26 year old woman and her boyfriend taking responsiblity of their lives! She is lucky to have a family who will support her emotionally, whatever decision she chooses to make. Beyond that, they do not owe her anything else.

[Lars39]

34. And she doesn't owe them a child either.

[StellaBlue]

150. They didn't impregnate her, either.

And, since she's an adult, it's her responsibility, ultimately. Unfortunately.

[LeftyMom]

52. I disagree

Deniying her medical care and free choice (nobody should have to bear an unwanted child because they lack funds!) is coercing her to have the baby. What else is she going to do, work a corner? She's pregnant and has a spotty job history, nobody's going to hire her.

They're not "support(ing) her emotionally, whatever decision she chooses to make" because she's already made a decision and they're throwing up road blocks.

I can't believe I'm having to explain this on DU. Being pro-choice means women can make choices we don't agree with. They don't have to justify themselves or live perfect lives to have the right to abortion, or to bear children, or to have sex or obtain contraception. Every woman is entitled to health care and no woman should have to bear a child she does not want.

Offering to adopt the child when one is also advocating against the abortion she has already chosen is a conflict of interest. If the original poster wants to be above the fray, then they'll have to take themselves out of the potential adoptive family pool and get thier second child another way.

BTW: Is that Shireen as in Shireen Baratheon?

[RiDuvessa]

183. If her father is supporting her in every way.

Then any minimum wage job could get her $550 in a few weeks. I have seen people further along then four months working.

There are also other ways for her to get the money: A bank loan, credit card, selling something of hers.

Planned Parenthood can also help you work out financing.

A women can make a choice to have an abortion. That doesn't mean that an uncle or father should have to pay for the abortion of a 26-year-old women.

I don't understand how you think the uncle refusing to pay for an abortion is denying free choice. People need to take responsibility for themselves once in a while.

[LisaL]

269. Exactly. Working in McDonalds she could have made 50 $ a day.

Which means in a couple weeks she could have made the money she needed for an abortion. Of course now it's getting too late, but it's her own darn fault for being so freaking stupid.

[VelmaD]

272. Wrong...

minimum wage is just over $5 an hour and there's no way in hell Mickey D's is gonna let her work overtime and have to pay time and a half. (I used to work fast food many moons ago and they kicked my ass out of the store before I even got close to full-time hours).

[LisaL]

283. My relative had worked at McDonalds and I don't think

it's unrealistic for her to make 500$ in a couple of weeks, considering she has no other expenses.

[NaturalHigh]

287. This young lady is not being denied medical care...

or free choice. The OP is simply declining to pay for it, as is his right. Whether he is for or against abortion, how is he obligated to pay for her procedure? It's time for this woman to grow up a little bit and take some responsibility for her own life and choices.

[U4ikLefty]

322. No, he offered financial help & then pulled it away.

and then betrayed her confidence...get your facts straight

[Matariki]

31. wow, that's kind of harsh

obviously her family cares about her a great deal. but she's an adult and they shouldn't have to pay for her abortion. she sounds a bit spoiled actually. it's possible they've been doing her a disservice by helping her overmuch. don't you think there's a point in a normal adult's life where they should stop expecting financial support from their parents?

[LeftyMom]

59. They're willing to pay for her baby

Either a woman has the right to choose or she does not. The psoter offered to pay, then backed out. If she's too immature to get a job, she's definitely too immature to have a child.

As we don't have national health care in this country (why I don't know, but that's another post) and she can't rely on govt funding the responsible thing to do would be to either lend her the cash or put her in touch with some agency that can. "Nevermind, I don't want to pay for your abortion, why don't you just give me the kid" is pure exploitation and I can't believe that sort of behavior is being defended on DU.

:banghead:

[Matariki]

78. what if he hadn't first offered?

how would that be any different to you?

[LeftyMom]

81. She's a relative with no resources

failing to offer what she needed or denying her from the get-go would be a lousy thing to do, but not half so bad as offering and then withdrawing the offer.

[Castilleja]

331. You zeroed in on the part of OP's post that bugged me

After reading some of the responses, I thought it was just me... Everything up until the part where OP and wife would like to have another child, and this one would be conveniently available, was understandable. The neice would become a surrogate mother against her will. You don't have to pay for an abortion, but don't include yourself in the adoption of the child. Not right, sorry.

[The Straight Story]

333. We offered her an option

We can still have kids ourselves if we choose. I would prefer to do just that actually. Our thought was that since we live next door she could be part of it, and eventually take the child back into a loving home.

[LisaL]

209. Deny her health care? Is the poster responsible for the health

care of this adult woman? Exploit a young woman? Sounds like this woman has been exploiting everyone else all her adult life. WTF doesn't she work, at 26 years of age?
WTF doesn't her boyfriend gives her the money? It's his kid, after all, and he doesn't want him.

[BlackVelvet04]

306. And obviously the family has ALLOWED

her to be dependant. This irresponsibility didn't happen overnight and it didn't happen in a vacuum.

[wellstone_democrat]

21. I'm absolutely pro choice but you aren't required to supply

money for her abortion. I think that you offered what you could. You didn't turn her out, you didn't beat her up, you simply refused to pay for her abortion and as a family you offered a solution. If it isn't one she wants, then she needs to find an alternative.

The idea that refusing to pay for the procedure and then offering to assist in a way that you are comfortable with is all any of us can ask of others. If it is such an urgent situation, then perhaps she can get her friends and bf to find the money. Frankly, at the bottom of it, she's 26, its not your problem or her father's, its hers.

[Benbow]

178. Actions have consequences - at 26 she should know that, she should OWN the

responsibility.

[Solly Mack]

22. Was your desperate desire for another child a motivating factor

for going back on your word?

Did you consider, even once - no matter how fleeting - that she might allow you to adopt the child if she couldn't get the money for an abortion?

Your desire for another child should NOT - not even fleetingly- play into this. It's not your desperate desires that matter in this.

If, in any way, shape or form, you and your wife considered that by denying her the funds you promised, or by telling her father of her decision, you thought it would gain you a child you so desperately desired, then you're wrong.

Her actions aside, your motives matter. You offered her the money and then changed your mind - was it because you thought if she couldn't get the money she would then allow you to adopt? Did you go back on your word to better the chances she would have to carry to term, which would then better your chances for getting a child you so desperately desire?

If you stood to gain by breaking your word, then you need to examine your motives.

Since you were willing to give the money to begin with, you obviously have no objections to abortion. So your motive for going back on your word has to be some other reason.

[The Straight Story]

40. Hell No

3 nights ago my wife and I were discussing adoption. My company helps pay for such a thing. We offered it to her as a choice. We still might be able to have another child ourselves, so it is not a concern to us.

We wanted to give her options. My wife had an abortion once and it still haunts her to this day. They talked about this at length (my wife and niece).

I have no objection to her having an abortion, that is her choice - not mine. But I choose not to pay for someone else's abortion (in this case, hers). My dad feels the same way. He is a RW fundie for the most part but welcomes her back totally no matter what she does, he just does not want to pay for something he does not agree with. She could have the abortion tomorrow and he would not say a word to her about it and would take care of her.

She has made choices - and so far they have been very poor (for her). Now she has another choice to make but she wants others to cough up the cash for it.

If she wants it, fine. I have tried hard over the years for her. When she was sad and wanted a new life - I paid to drive her to california from Ohio and tried to help her make a new life. To no avail.

Now she is in a relationship. He is pressuring her to abort, she seems a tad unsure at times and seems to be making a choice that would please him. He has not coughed up a penny for it. Spent all his money on video games.

I would adopt it for her, take care of the child for her, and let her have it back if and when she was ready.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

46. I'm not buying it. You're using your resources to manipulate her

and doing it under the pretense that the boyfriend is doing it.

While it is true you owe her nothing and don't have to fund her abortion...this all seems to be from a paternal controlling space.

I feel sorry for your neice.

What's her address? I'll take up a collection for her and wish her well in her own choices without regard for everyone else's secondary gain.

[Solly Mack]

47. You get that address and I'll donate gladly

[Solly Mack]

55. then you picked the wrong time to make a point

Your niece may well be as irresponsible as you decribe her, but now is not the time to drive that point home. Give her the money you promised - go with her to have the abortion.

Refusing to make a car payment is a way to teach responsibility - telling her she must find her own place to live and setting a timeline you stick to is as well.... but denying her a medical service is not.

[Scout]

191. exactly.

they've been enabling her childish attitude and life style for 8 years, now that she's really "in trouble" the family is telling OK time to grow up right now!

The family, dad especially, made this bed and now they don't want to let the niece sleep in it any more.

[LeftyMom]

67. You're really not thinking this through

You can't just raise the child as a parent and then give it to her when she's ready for it. This isn't a family heirloom you can hold onto until she's mature enogh to care for it. If she has the baby either she's going to parent this kid or somebody else is, but bouncing the kid from home to home is just asking for attatchment issues (which adopted kids are prone to in the best of circumstances.)

[LisaL]

280. I agree. I doubt the OP would be able to give the child back

when and if the mother smartens up.

[progressivebydesign]

216. You'd really let her have it back?

I know you mean well, but it's not a puppy. The baby would bond with you and your wife, and you would bond with the baby. How cruel to think that you'd raise it and give it back when the neice suddenly feels maternal. I'd support the idea of adopting from her (even tho I think it would be heartache all around), outright, rather than a give-back policy. Talk to a lawyer. That's my best advice.

[Vektor]

25. She and the BF do not sound mature enough to handle parenting.

She does have a right to choose not to carry the child. This is a tough situation because if the had the money, she'd choose to abort. She is kind of being "forced" to have the baby because no one will assist.

Considering that pregnancy is a profound medical trauma to the body, (which is often outweighed by the joy of parenting for a woman who WANTS a baby) forcing her to undergo that when she DOESN'T want it, is pretty horrible. There are several risks associated with pregnancy and childbirth, it's a serious MEDICAL CONDITION.

Keeping that in mind, if I had the money, I'd fund an abortion if someone I knew and cared about needed one.

It's your choice, but if she doesn't want that baby, the child's life may end up a mess, and the Mom may do horrible things out of desperation to her body while pregnant, like use drugs or alcohol.

I shudder to imagine anyone who is not 100% enthusiastic about it carrying a baby.

[StellaBlue]

30. Again, I disagree

I am pro-choice and pro-life.

I think abortion should be legal, but I would not be able to have one. I felt differently when I was younger. I am now 26 and know I could emotionally and financially handle a baby, if I had to.

However, we must face reality. We cannot change things just because they are not how we think they 'should' be sometimes. Sex leads to pregnancy. If she didn't want to get pregnant, she should have either used contraceptives with a high success rate (e.g. the Pill) or, even better, not had sex. **This responsibility, IMHO, extends equally to the father.**

I also think that, since I have never faced an unwanted pregnancy (but did have a scare when much too young, and even skipped 2 periods because my overbearing father scared me so much when he found out I had had sex ONCE - and WITH protection), I cannot judge. I fully think that she has the right to decide whether to abort or not. I do not want to impose my conscience on another person.

It seems to me that some of the previous posters are, basically, putting the responsibility for her predicament on YOU. When you are already doing far more than is required by familiar or human duty and are willing to help and support her.

However, 26 is very well into adulthood. There are consequences to actions for adult (* excepted).

As an uncle, it sounds to me that you are doing the right thing. Contrary to what people on this thread are saying, you are not FORCING her into anything, nor are you limiting her choices. She can get a job, get a loan (or her BF could!!!!), or go to a number of organizations such as PP. She cannot coerce you into acting against your conscience either.

These things are more complicated than many 'abortion-is-always-wrong' and 'all-unwanted-babies-are-parasites' sides of the debate seem to comprehend.

[Vektor]

156. You can disagree, that's fine.

Yes she should have used birth control, but this is not a perfect world and shit happens. Quite often. "Shoulda, coulda, woulda" is not relevant to the reality that she is pregnant NOW and doesn't want the baby.

And I do agree that she needs to find someone else to pay for the procedure, because clearly the family is unwilling, but IMHO, that's the same as refusing to help someone with any other sort of medical treatment they might need.

I'd help her get the abortion. You have the right to feel differently.

[deadparrot]

37. But no one's forcing her to do anything.

The family has said repeatedly that they'll love her and support her in whatever she choses, they just aren't going to pay for it.

She's 26 years old. She's an adult. IMO, she should try other avenues to get the $550. I'm 18, and I've been working regularly for neighbors and family friends since I was 12, and at a formal establishment since I was 15.

But you're right. I don't want people going through pregnancy/childbirth/parenting/adoption unless it's by their own choice. Who knows what they'll do to themselves and/or their child otherwise?

[Vektor]

160. Trying other avenues is a good idea.

I put "forcing" in quotes, meaning that it could be loosely translated. Likely the lack of funds is making her feel forced, and the family's unwillingness to pay for her abortion contributes to that. But without the money, she might reach a point where she feels her only option might be to harm herself trying to spontaneously abort. I have seen this more than once with women who didn't want the baby, and had no money to get a safe, legal abortion.

That scares me.

[Samurai_Writer]

190. You're wrong...

The family said they would 'love and support her' in whatever she chooses, but they aren't going to pay for the ABORTION. They WILL pay to help raise the child, and even adopt the child, which is a MAJOR conflict of interest, and very, very coercive, IMO.

Also, he says she is 5 months pregnant? She can't get an abortion over 20 weeks at most clinics, and it would be a LOT more than $550. She only has til 24 weeks legally, and every week she waits, it is riskier to her . I had to have an abortion at 20 weeks because the fetus died in utero -- it is NOT like a first trimester abortion, which is relatively quick, easy and painless -- it is a two-day, high-risk procedure.

I'm also a birthmother who was 'coerced' by my family to give up my child for adoption (who I wanted to raise). This entire situation makes me livid, as I see MANY of the same things going on (only in reverse).

I don't care if she's 14, 26, or 42. If she's pregnant, doesn't want to be, and doesn't want to be a parent, they have no right to force her to bear a child (and if she can't get the money, they ARE forcing her), and then coerce her into giving it to them to raise.

This guy should go read my birthmother story, and the others listed on my site.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2991/marybb.html

[deadparrot]

278. If she's 4-5 months pregnant,

she was probably aware of the pregnancy for a good amount of time before now. But that's neither here nor there, though I do understand that the longer you wait, the harder it is. Time is a factor, which is important to consider.

Even if she doesn't have a job, BF does. Apparently, BF is the one who wants her to abort (according to this side of the story). He should be pitching it at least part, if not all, of the money. They're an adult couple, dysfunctional as the relationship may be.

I would say, if the OP decides to give her the money, consider the money a loan (and make sure she pays it back).

The family has, to a degree, enabled her behavior by giving her whatever she wants. That's a big reason, I think, why she's in this situation. And pulling the money back was wrong. Also, the OP should probably stop offering to raise the child if she does have it, because it does seem like he's pushing her to make a certain decision, be that the case or not. I think there's failure on the part of both parties.

But to deny the immaturity of this girl, or to make her a martyr, is silly, IMHO. She has to take *some* responsibility for herself and her behavior.

If this girl gets the money from her family, they need to make sure she gets a job (and/or higher education, if she wants it), pays it back, and starts learning some basic responsibility. It's the only way to stop a situation like this from happening again.

[welshTerrier2]

32. simplifying the factors ...

there were many things included in your post that i think should ultimately have little or no relevance in arriving at your decision ...

first, if you personally don't believe in abortions, i see no basis for anyone saying you should have to fund one ... it's unfortunate that you "flip-flopped" but in the end, you have to act based on your beliefs ...

all of the stuff about your niece's irresponsibility, your dad's medical problems, the brother, the BF and the rest of it should not really be a component of the funding decision ... i would consider it very inappropriate to refuse to fund an abortion to "teach someone a lesson" for not working or having their own funds ... i understand you're not saying that ...

having said all of this, it is truly tragic for money to be an obstacle to "free choice" on issues like this ... should a young woman be relegated to being a "birthing slave" merely because she is poor and unable to afford a safe abortion? are those so moral in their opposition to abortion prepared to impose this obligation only on the poor?

it is a very great injustice to deny anyone seeking medical treatment the ability to obtain that treatment for any reason ...

in the end, if i were in your situation, the choice of funding would be very difficult ... there really are two issues here, not one ... the first is what you have used to make your decision not to give her the money ... you believe abortion is wrong ...

but the second is human freedom and the injustices that capitalism imposes ... even if your niece is lazy and refuses to earn her own way, i see issues like this as fundamental human liberties ... money or no money, laziness or not, no one should be denied the medical care they seek ... i trust that if your niece needed a medical procedure you approved of, you would help her even though she is lazy and has no income ... so i dismiss her laziness and her poverty as deciding factors ... in an ideal world, all medical procedures, abortion included, would be charged (or free) based on an ability to pay ...

i think you have every right to make the decision you made ... i don't think, however, that it's all that realistic to expect your niece to be tolerant of your decision ... she should respect that you have a "right to choose" as much as she does ... however, i can't imagine the horror of being trapped in an unwanted pregnancy by poverty and having those i depended on the most reject my pleas for help ... it's tragic that this could cause a rift in the family when she probably needs your support the most ...

i wish i had wiser answers ... the best outcome would be a situation where each of you could be true to your deepest feelings ... given the rules of our capitalistic system where the poor, regardless of why they're poor, cannot obtain the health care they seek, i'm afraid the "best outcome" is not a very good outcome ...

[The Straight Story]

48. You are right (and I felt she was pressured)

I was wrong to flip-flop, and I know that. I had just came into some cash and when she asked me for some money was glad to help out. But then, after a sleepless night and talking to the wife more, we felt it a poor decision to make.

So I called dad and asked his advice. He is 70, been around awhile and is a rock to this family. He has taken care of her well through the years.

I felt too she was pressured from her BF - she seemed to waiver a bit but she wants to keep him happy. She loves kids and always wanted them, but did not think she could ever have them (medical reasons beyond my computer geek comprhension).

I DON'T want her saddled with a child she does not want. At the same time I don't see why it should be up to me to deliver her from that. I did the best I could and offered her what I was able. If she felt it was a mistake she could then have the child she always seemed to want to have, if she didn't - she did not have to raise one and could resume the lifestyle she had.

[welshTerrier2]

77. just to clarify ... or perhaps confuse the issue even further ...

i don't think "you were wrong to flip-flop" ... i think it was unfortunate that you did but you have a right to "tune in to your own beliefs" ... if that means a painful change in your position, so be it ...

and just to clarify, i am very strongly pro-choice and wouldn't hesitate for a second to give her the money GIVEN MY VIEWS ...

if we were to extend your personal decision to the national scale, do you believe the government should provide free abortions to those who can't afford them? i do ... should money or lack of it be the determinant on such important issues? i say no ...

if a majority believed abortion is wrong, should they be able to impose their will on a woman who did not agree? i say no ...

the point is, even recognizing your right to honor your own system of values, the logical extension to the broader society yields some pretty unappealing policy ... i suppose in some sense there's a difference between the individual decision you face and a societal decision ... i'm not all that clear i can articulate the differences though ... and i'm not all too comfortable with that ...

the point is, if we take your action and make it the nation's policy, then we will not provide abortions to those who can't afford them ... then we, as a nation, would essentially force a woman of little or no means to carry her unwanted pregnancy to term ... and that policy seems unconscionable to me ...

perhaps someone can explain the difference between a personal decision like this and extending the values on which that decision is based to the national scale ... because looking at it through that lens, i'm not very comfortable with the outcome ...

[StellaBlue]

85. AGAIN, I disagree

I don't agree with the way every single cent of my taxes is spent.

In matters of life and death (such as war in Iraq and FEMA incompetence), I feel I must stand up and shout and act. I do not, unlike many, regard abortion as murder, per se. I think that is an issue for individual consiences, and I have no right to impose my conscience on another when it is not a CLEAR-CUT case of life and death.

This is how I can support free abortions for all AND be privately pro-life. For MYSELF only. I might, depending on the circumstances, pay for someone else to have an abortion. For me, this wouldn't be one of those circumstances.

[welshTerrier2]

88. i'm confused ...

i'm not sure what you're disagreeing with ... i didn't sense you had a problem with my believing in a pro-choice position ...

i didn't say that the BP'er should have ignored his conscience and given the money ...

what i did say in my last post was that those unable to pay for abortions, or any other medical procedure, should only be charged what they are able to pay ...

were you objecting to the use of federal funds being used to pay for abortions for the poor?

i'm confused with your disagreement ...

[StellaBlue]

91. This

"if we were to extend your personal decision to the national scale, do you believe the government should provide free abortions to those who can't afford them? i do ... should money or lack of it be the determinant on such important issues? i say no ...

"if a majority believed abortion is wrong, should they be able to impose their will on a woman who did not agree? i say no ..."

He can make this personal decision and still not oppose nationalized healthcare that includes free abortions. That was my point.

[welshTerrier2]

106. ah, that's clearer ...

and i didn't necessarily conclude otherwise ... i do think the values involved get pretty fuzzy pretty quickly though ...

should we not expect the values we hold as individuals to "scale" to the national and international arena? if something is "not right" for someone on the individual level, why does it "become right" as a societal choice?

[StellaBlue]

123. chaos

How could we scale our individual values up - that would be chaotic?

We can have a huge range of options from the top, on a societal level, and then individuals can follow their own consciences within their own lives.

Just because it's not right for Straight Story, doesn't mean it's not right for his niece.

But that's HER choice and HER responsibility, and there can't be any force in either direction. And thus, the impasse. But if we did have a larger range of societal options, e.g. free nationalized healthcare including abortions, then she could make that choice without involving the conscience of another individual.

This is such a thorny issue, though.

I just wish for the best for Straight Story AND his whole family.

I can also see it from his niece's POV because of the attitudes of my own father re: control, approval, limiting choices, etc.

Tricky, tricky.

[petronius]

36. You are not obligated to give/lend the money

But I wonder why you changed your mind. If it was for your own benefit (as another poster suggested) then I would reconsider. Also, if you've just reached the end of the rope, and are wanting niece to learn a lesson about solving her own problems, then I would suggest that this maybe isn't the right issue on which to take a stand. However, if you have religious/spiritual objections to funding an abortion, you need to make that clear to niece.

On the other hand, if you have previously told her that you're finished solving her problems - if you've already drawn a line - then stick to it. She is definitely capable of taking care of herself, and with no rent or other costs she should b able to earn the money.

Regardless, I disagree with some other posters - you are not denying her her right to choose or making a decision for her, you are only stepping aside and letting her deal with her own life...

[The Straight Story]

50. She is clear on the reasons

I just don't feel it is right - but I do feel it is her choice to make and will love her no matter which she makes. I just don't feel right paying for something that I disagree with.

[alcuno]

210. I wouldn't pay for it. No way, no how.

If you consider abortion to be wrong, then you can't help pay for it. Continue to offer help and support. I hope it works out well.

[Dan]

38. Family experience...

Can't and wouldn't offer advice...but

within my family, relatives took over the first three children that a female relative had. Once she had the first child - and someone took responsibility for raising the child, it seemed as if having additional children became easier. Sort of throw-aways - because there was the feelings that another relative would take the baby off her hand.

And, she was right.

The issue is personal responsibility, abortion, raising the child - there are no good answers, when children have children (and I am not referring to age).

Whatever you choose to do, I wish you luck. But in the back of your mind, ask this question...what will you do, if a year from now, there is another pregnancy and the same issues confront you.... I wish you/family luck.

[burrowowl]

43. 4 months is pretty late

to have an abortion, entirely different procedure than for the first 12 weeks and more expensive.
Hopefully, she will see some light and let you all adopt it. You will also have to get the BF's consnet as well.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

44. So she's irrresponsible. Are you going to make her more responsible

by forcing her to have an abortion later? Or by having a child and giving it up?

That's insane. If anyone in my family did not wish to give birth and came to me early in their term and asked for assistance financially or spiritually, I would do it.

Your tough love in this instance seems coldhearted and self serving.

[ismnotwasm]

51. Hard choice

One of my daughters had an abortion at 18. She and her boyfriend at the time split expenses. This girl had always been very careful about birth control, and was very clear with her decision (to this day she refers to it as "my procedure") I would have paid for it if necessary. At 26? I just don't know. On the other hand I have a friend who is raising 2 grandchildren, there is a third grandchild that other grandparents are raising, and this women (25) is pregnant again. She obviously is a very troubled person (long story) with a history of substance abuse. My friend is through enabling this daughter in any way, and has permanent custody of the first two children, but I believe in THIS case she would pay for an abortion, but her daughter has no intentions of getting one. I don't believe you are responsible in any way to pay for this, and this woman is using emotional manipulation to get her way. Ask her to contact plan parenthood and see what options are available.

[StellaBlue]

57. 'Choice'

Choice also means choosing to have sex when you are not emotionally or financially prepared for the possible consequences; choosing to willfully avoid contraception (which Straight Story says she is not on); choosing to wait 4 months into the pregnancy, when, in fact she could've gotten a job earlier and already had an abortion by now; choosing to have sex with someone who seems totally immature and selfish, as well, more concerned with video games than reality (how OLD is this person?!?!).

I, too, think that we should have nationalized healthcare with free abortions (perhaps with some restrictions, such as none at 8/9 months, incentives away from multiple ones, etc.). But, to me at least, that's not the same as DIRECTLY condoning it by paying for it yourself. Straight Story should not be bullied into funding something against his own conscience.

SHE'S already made the 'choices', IMHO. And she still has options.

My mom and I have been talking about these types of issues lately (she's mid50s, I'm 26, as I said above). We are both startled by the open promiscuousness of many people we know. And by the casualness with which people have children. And by how many people, even into their late 20s, are not immediately 'woken up' by a pregnancy/child and pushed into adulthood. We have come to the conclusion that if a CHILD doesn't wake you up, make you accountable, bring you into the 'real world', then nothing will.

Sounds to me like this woman may NEED this wake-up call. Not that that alone is a reason to withhold the money. It's not about punishment; I just can't believe that people are acting like the whole situation is Straight Story's fault!!!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

62. It's not his fault, but he is manipulating her

He's already said money is not an issue.

He already told her yes so he can't have that big of a moral issue with it or he would have never considered "yes." It would NEVER have been an option in the first place.

This is just some "well intended" tough love with the extra added benefit that he and his wife can use his niece as their personal incubator.

[StellaBlue]

69. "he and his wife can use his niece as their personal incubator"

This is irrelevant and insulting.

Why is it that all pro-life people (including this obviously compassionate, progressive poster) are so often portrayed as Monty-Python-style retro-Catholic fecundity-obsessed extremists?

I am NOT getting that vibe from Straight Story AT ALL.

It certainly doesn't sound to me like he needs anymore dependents at this time, anyway.

[progressivebydesign]

217. Read his post. He IS looking to adopt a baby right now. n/t

[StellaBlue]

236. Apologies

You're right. This was clarified to me further down the thread.

[The Straight Story]

334. Don't need an incubator thank you

Was offering her more choices.

While I don't have as big a moral issue with it as it may seem, I do know that I feel it is not right - and funding something I feel is wrong is not something I want to do. She hit me up while I was in the middle of something and I wanted to help her out. I then lost a lot of sleep over it, as did my wife (who has had an abortion many years ago) and felt I made the wrong choice.

I admitted my bad choice and changed it before it occured.

I feel too she is being terribly pressured. I talked to my dad today who spoke with her at length via phone on the issue. He is worried she is being pressured, if not threatened, by her BF to get an abortion.

While I may have changed my mind, she appears to have as well from recent talks. She always wanted a child. But her BF is giving her hell and telling her he will leave her and never talk to her again - and she does not want that.

I am not sure of all the answers, but I know her and I can tell she was in pain on it all and being pressured on all sides. She needs time, and hopefully time away from all sides to think it through for herself.

We will love her either way, but I have known her her whole life and I can tell she is being hammered by her BF to do what he wants and not what she really wants.

He wants to play video games and go to parapsychology school, but in the 2+ years I have known him this is the first job he has had and has leeched off her. She cooks for him, drives him to work, and has paid for his games and smokes (and drugs) when she was working.

her life is a mess - running off for a quick solution for something she will probably regret for rest of her life is not the answer.

[The Straight Story]

70. Pretty well sums it up for me

She made choices, now she wants others to make choices to help her out of her situation.

As noted she is loved no matter what, even though she is mad at me - I understand she is in a tough way.

She has made many choices, which led her to now. I am not sure why I should be the one to help her with her issues now.

I am not her BF, I did not get her to this stage, I did not put her into a situation where she did not have the resources she needed. She did those things.

I offered her the best I could. She plays with my daughter every day, loves kids, and always wanted her own. Now she can have one - but is scared of change and her BF seems (imho) to be pushing her.

I offered her what I could.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

75. No. YOu said yeas and then reneged when you saw some opportunity

for second gain and control. I feel very sorry for your niece.

Give her the CHOICE via the funds to have an abortion and the ROOM to not have to if that is what she wishes.

You don't understand just how tough that way is. She is far enough along in her pregnancy that time is of the essence.

Too bad she has to rely on you at this point.

As I said...get a fund set up. I will raise the money for her.

This is her choice and it's unfortunate you would rather not support her just because you see in it a silver lining in keeping the child.

I would never withdraw my support of a family member or serve them up ultimatums and platitudes about responsibility at such an urgent time.

[Avalon Sparks]

102. This is why...

"I am not sure why I should be the one to help her with her issues now."

Because families HELP each other. Unfortunately for her and you, it sounds like you're her last hope of getting the money.

And being pregnant is more than 'just an issue'....

[Liberty Belle]

60. A woman who calls a child a "parasite" won't make a good mother,

probably. I'd worry she could neglect or abuse the child if she's too emotionally immature to handle the demands of parenthood. Have you discussed adoption? That may be the best choice in these sad circumstances.

On the other hand, if she's a heavy drug user, her baby could have severe problems, so perhaps the abortion should be considered for that reason. Has anyone gotten a doctor's opinion? Delaying much longer as some have suggested, while she gets a job and saves to pay for an abortion herself, would push this into a late-term abortion, the worst of all options.

[burrowowl]

135. You have some

VERY VALID POINTS!

[Grey]

64. I'm with you on this..........

You did just the right thing. Any person at 26 years of age should be responsible for their own actions. While I am 'pro-choice' It's to late for that and the next option is 'what's best for the baby?'. I wish you well.

[Avalon Sparks]

66. You asked for an opinion so here it is...

To me it sounds like you're trying to teach her a lesson or even punish her for her past life choices by with holding financial help that you say you are clearly able to give.

If she is already four months pregnant and wants an abortion time is of the essence in getting the procedure. Going for loans or working for two weeks to get money to pay for it doesn't seem very feasible to me. Depending on her work and credit history, a loan (from a bank or something) may not even be a possible alternative. Finding a job at this point, even if she gets one tomorrow, could put getting the $550 dollars out of reach for 3 more weeks, before she even get's paid. She would also have to get a job for 40 hours a week that paid at least $8.60 an hour in order to take home $550 after two weeks. A paycheck could be delayed until the third week after she starts work. That would put her at almost 5 months pregnant and the cost of abortion would probably be at least $700 at that point.

She says she wants an abortion. To me it sounds like aside from robbing a bank or something, you are her only hope of getting the money to pay for it. You and your Dad have enabled her up until this point in her life to expect that you will provide the things she needs. Now doesn't seem like the best time to 'cut her off the family payroll'...

In in ideal world a pregnant girl would have every choice available to decide what to do about a baby. In this society an abortion is becoming a more costly and geographically (depending on where you live) difficult alternative. I would never withhold helping to make that alternative possible and I would gladly open my wallet if this were my niece.

I have three nephews that I love so much, I would take a bullet for them. If any of them ever came to me in any kind of trouble, I would move hell and high water to give them whatever they needed. It wouldn't matter to me what choices they made to get into a situation that they needed help.

Additionally you say she smokes pot - well that's not a good thing to do during pregnancy. If she is forced to have this baby because she can't get the money for an abortion - she will probably continue to engage in risky behavior that could be harmful to the baby, and that's not a good thing for anyone.

Added on edit:

I think you should without a doubt give her the money as a loan, and make her sign some papers that she will pay it back. Take the tough love line after the abortion is over. If you do at like this at least you can look at it like she IS the one paying for the abortion not you.

[The Straight Story]

83. Punish her?

If I wanted to do that I would remind her of the hell she put my mom through over the years, which she feels bad for now that mom has died.

Water under the bridge really - I remember it yes, but we all make mistakes and I don't want her feeling bad over it, solves nothing. She feels bad about it already, and I could make it worse - but there is no reason to. So I don't feel the need now to punish her, as it were.

'Forced' to have this baby as you mention seems a tad extreme. She has never been forced to do anything, and I am not forcing her to do so now - I am just choosing not to be her vehicle for an out.

Why should I be forced to give her money for something I don't want to be a party of? She has had ample oppurtunity to make the life she has always wanted, but she has chosen not to do so.

I do not want to see her suffer - and I think aborting this baby to continue her lifestyle will make her suffer.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

87. Well ya picked a damn good time to dig your heals in

I think her having no options will cause her to suffer even worse. Gee, maybe she'll develop gestational diabetes and really learn a thing or two

Again. Your saying yes in the first place indicates this is not so much a moral issue but an opportunity to use what you have that she wants as a means of dominating her.

Sorry, my friend. I'd never do that to a family member. That's creepy.

[redacted]

117. NSMA: But . . .

Mrs. R here.

You reaction was my first reaction, but then . . .

she's 26 YO and 4 months pregnant -- she's known for 12 weeks she's been pregnant. She could have had a less invasive procedure done ages ago for not much money, may be free.

What's up there? Does she want to keep the child and is getting the procedure done under pressure?

They live in Columbus -- there are plenty of resources for her there. She prob doesn't even need the money if she made some phone calls -- so why did she go to her uncle with the truth? Why not lie to her dad (uncle thought that was her next move.)

This is a girl crying out for help, but what kind of help?

I don't know what's right or wrong -- but I do know I would try to find out what is really going on.

[Avalon Sparks]

93. Forced? Yes

She will be forced to have the baby if she can't get the money, right?

There are only 3 choices for a pregnant woman:

Keep the baby
Give the baby up
Abort the baby

A pregnant woman without money has only two choices:

Keep the baby
Give the baby up

Your niece says she wants an abortion. She's had 4 months to think about it. You're making assumptions that could be wrong about her 'doing it for her boyfriend', her possibly having regrets later... ect. I guess your analysis of her reasons or feelings are based on erring on the side of caution perhaps. Maybe she will regret it, maybe she won't... there are abortion message boards that seem to suggest women handle it differently. Your wife regreted it - your niece may not. Your still basing your decision on your assumptions about the motivations behind your neice wanting an abortion and how she may feel afterwards. I don't understand why you don't give her the money and let her make her own decision and deal with the consequences of her decision herself.

She's a broke 26 year old women who's family is only leaving her with two of three viable choices. You aren't some guy off the street, you're in a position to give her all three choices and you won't. I'm sorry, I completely disagree with your reasons for withholding even a loan to her.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

97. Thankyou. THis post succinctly sums it up for me

I will go sleep in peace now.

[Lars39]

98. Here's some insight

Fom post #92:
"Giving her an easy out alleviates the need for her to think this through for herself. Handing her the cash does, to me, one thing - takes away her ability to reason. She is acting on impulse."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm beginning to doubt the whole situation exists.

[Avalon Sparks]

112. Abortion is not an easy out...

Where is this mind set that abortion is an easy out coming from?

Speaking from experience it is not an easy out. It's not an easy choice for women. From the second the stick says pregnant there's not even a minute that goes by that you don't think about it - and the three options if you aren't planning for a child in the first place. Analyzing over and over which one is best for you. When you do finally make a decision it's not one that is chosen lightly or easily... it's the decision for you that seems the best choice of the three, because believe me with an unwanted pregnancy, none of the choices seem good.

But in my experience (and for what it's worth I am adopted) it was the best choice for me. Regrets? Sure, but at the time this was the best choice for me and I don't regret the decision I made, it's more of "I wonder what would of happened if I didn't do it" kind of thing. But it's just that - wondering - almost like wondering what would have happened if I moved to Colorado instead of Dallas after I graduated college kind of thing. I'm lucky that my Republican, Catholic, Conservative parents were there for this 25 year old, broke, irresponsible girl at the time. I had no other way to get the money either, and my boyfriend at the time dumped me. He came back later, after the abortion, but I told him to take a hike.

And also for what it's worth, the abortion was a wake up call for me to end all wake up calls. My family and I became so much closer afterwards, and because they helped me out so much when I really needed it, I straightened up my act.

Abortion isn't an easy way out, but sometimes it is the best way out. I have first hand experience and have seen with some of my friends (almost all my friends have had abortions themselves) it can definitely serve as a wake up call for past behavior.

[Lars39]

114. It's a RW talking point.

[StellaBlue]

130. Good for you

Re: re-dumping the BF.

I do wonder, though... I am only 26 and I don't know that any of my friends have had an abortion. We are all blabber mouths, so I think we would know! I do have one acquaintance through my ex that has had two, and a cousin who is now in her 40s who has had one (and also has serious reproductive issues, so that may be part of the reason, dunno)but they are the only women I know who I 'know' to have had an abortion.

Maybe I am just totally sheltered and prudish or something (I don't think so), but what is going on? I don't mean this about Avalon Sparks personally, but in general. Has EVERYONE had an abortion except me??? Is it just that routine and normal? Not casual; Avalon Sparks has just described very well the realities of unwanted pregnancy and the difficuly decisions of immature young women, but...

I can't help but wonder, seeing all these "Sex and the City" episodes, hearing tales like on this thread, hearing the things my mother hears about clients at the family law practice where she works, if everyone is really promiscuous except me!

And I am only 26 and, obviously (see my other posts) a very liberal person!

Only two of my friends have even had one night stands (we were talking about this a few weeks ago!)!

[Avalon Sparks]

131. This was back in the late 80's...

I'd say that by the time I was 25, at least half of the friends I knew or acquaintances had an abortion. None of them were married - most were ones I knew in college. I was surprised that I didn't know about some until I was in the situation I was in. I don't think it's talked about a lot. It's the only time I've talked about it on the board.

It's never anyone's proudest moment kind of thing....

My group of friends were usually the wilder, enjoying the party life people though - not very straight. It was slightly similar to Sex and the City in college the way my girlfriends were... not so much like it in our 30's though...

Although, I myself only had a one night stand once. He showed up at my door 3 months later and we dated for 3 years - go figure.

Only thing I can say in my defense regarding the unplanned pregnancy is that I couldn't take the pill. (made me extremely sick) I did enjoy having sex though (still do by the way) and I did use condoms faithfully. I got pregnant when the condom broke....

[StellaBlue]

136. This is all very interesting to me as a feminist

This whole aspect of the sexual revolution.

I think a lot about whether women behaving sexually as men has made us more equal or more happy. I think, largely, it doesn't work for us emotionally. Obviously for some women it may, and I think they should go for it, but I think we possibly jumped in too quickly to embrace certain aspects of sexual liberation that are not, ultimately in our best interests as women.

It's fascinating, though.

[Avalon Sparks]

145. Is it a sexual revolution - or deciding to marry later???

Actually I didn't sleep around much in college. In fact I didn't have sex my freshman or sophmore year because I didn't meet anyone that I wanted to have it with. I tended to have long term boyfriends that I enjoyed having a sexual relationship with until I got married at 35.

People are marrying later in life these days and in fact I think that people are also maturing later. (Gen X) It seems that unwanted pregnancies usually happen to people that aren't married and one of the biggest reasons (I think) women choose not to carry to term is due to lack of financial stability and not having a committed partner to go through it with.

I guess the sexual revolution though has enabled people to marry later in life though, so you're probably right about it not being in the best interest of women. I think women entering the work force also has a lot to do with it.

[StellaBlue]

152. Agree, agree, agree

[Vektor]

172. You might not have meant it this way...

but one needn't be promiscuous to have had an abortion. All it takes is one man, one time.

And, no, you aren't the only person who has never had an abortion. I haven't either. About half of my friends have.

[StellaBlue]

173. No, I didn't mean it that way

But it seems to be that these two trends most definitely parallel.

The chances of, say, 20 friends ALL having had abortions when they only had sex ONCE is highly unlikely, that's what I was thinking. I wouldn't be shocked if some of my friends had had one; but we talk about these kind of things, we are very close as well as very verbal, and I think it would've come up.

I just don't know that this culture is doing any long-term favors for women, that's all. Seems to me that cheapening sex, making it so casual, just makes women all the more expendable to men, whereas the vast majority of women, from my observation/conversations/experience, would prefer at least serial monogamy if not long-term monogamous relationships like marriage. I think we try to treat sex like men do, now that we technically CAN, but, for most of us, it just doesn't work. It's more than sex for us. And, for most of them, it isn't.

For me personally, bringing a life into the world would be the most transcendent thing I ever do; it's not something to be taken lightly. I realized when I was 17 and thought I was pregnant that I didn't want to be faced with that decision. I didn't want to have an abortion. And I didn't want to bring a child into the world through those circumstances. Casually. So I am on the Pill; I don't have sex with people I barely know (and by that I mean MONTHS not two dates); and I also make it clear that pregnancy, even though highly unlikely, is an eventuality which I am prepared to deal with, and I do not intend to have an abortion.

My 2 cents.

EDITED FOR SPELLING - my GOD it's late

[Vektor]

180. Ok - clear now.

I see what you're saying. That makes sense, and yes it is late - I'm pretty much in zombie mode at this point, too. :-)

[LisaL]

282. I worked with a girl that had been constantly pregnant and

having abortions. She was only 20, and I think she had five or six abortions by that time. Some people use abortion as birth control.

[JVS]

316. But being given $550 is an easy out

[The Straight Story]

337. Which situation?

The one I described??

It is real enough and continuing to develop.

Example: She left for a few days to be with friends. Called dad today and talked with him a long time, promised to come over today and talk with him more as she is confused and feeling a mess.

She never showed up or called back. Hopefully she will tomorrow.

[tjdee]

174. No, *she* left *herself* with two of three choices.

Obviously the OP's money will allow her (and possibly this unwanted kid) to dodge a bullet.

But it is hardly his *fault* that she only has two choices. She is almost thirty for pete's sake!

[Tomee450]

229. I think you did the right thing.

You are not obligated to pay for a twenty-six year old adult's abortion. What if she gets pregnant again and decides to abort. I know it was a painful decision to make, but the right one. I can't believe that people believe that you are doing wrong by not giving your money to an adult.

[VelmaD]

231. No, we think he did wrong...

by saying "yes", then changing his mind and claiming to be completely anti-abortion. Which is obviously false or he never would have said "yes" in the first place.

We think he did wrong when he went and blabbed about her situation to other family members without her consent.

[Tomee450]

268. So he changed his mind and told

other family members. Still does not change the fact that the niece and her boyfriend are responsible for that pregnancy, not the original poster. What if he had no money, what would she do then? He does not owe his niece one thing. If he has helped her in the past, she should be grateful for that. She has choices. She could get a job, the boyfriend could also. She could also sell her car, television set or other items to get the money. No twenty-six year old has the right to expect people to continue bailing her out. All she is going to do is continue with her irresponsible behavior. Once she knows uncle will pay for an abortion, what incentive is it for her to use birth control. She and the boyfriend are just plain irresponsible and the family has done the right thing. If this was a teenager I might think differently, but a twenty-six year old woman,.....please.

[VelmaD]

270. Nice to know...

that confidentiality means so very little to you. Let's just focus on everything wrong with his niece's behavior and let the OP off the look for acting like an ass. What. Ever. :eyes:

[VelmaD]

233. Ok, you are obviously out of your mind...

you think aborting the baby will make her suffer but her having to carry and raise a child she doesn't want WON'T?!?!?

Get a grip. Stop making this about you adn what you want.

[SuffragetteSal]

72. i probably would have given her the money

or researched where she could find funds to help her with her decision. If she truly does not want to have a baby, as a woman she has that right...rather or not she has the money to pay for it. At 26 I am sure she can make her mind up or figure out where to go for help if the family doesn't want to be a part of the decision.

good luck to you all...

[John Q. Citizen]

74. Because there is only what is in your narritive to go on, it is

difficult at best to offer advice.

Let me ask you this; Are you personally morally opposed to abortian? I guess maybe not, because you agreed to at first and if it were a non-negotiable moral issue you would have said no, right off the bat.

If she had asked for the money for an operation to save her arm, say, would you have given it to her? Or would you have told her that she's an adult and if she wants to save her arm she should get a job and pay for it herself?

From what you write it sounds like you all, (Dad included)like her to be dependent on you. Which she obviously is. Dad says he will retire and watch the baby. How is that teaching her responsibility for her own life? It is only fostering her lack of responsibilty.

I say, give her the money, with the understanding that after a reasonable amount of recuperation time say 3 or 4 weeks, she has to get a job and contribute a determined monthly amount of money to her living situation at your Dad's house, or she can move out and do whatever she wants.

I get the feeling that your desire to have a baby is playing a big part in your decision, as well as your Dad's moral opposition to abortion. Those are not good reasons to attempt to get her to have a baby.

Anyway, good luck and I hope things work out for all of you.

[StellaBlue]

76. Hypothetical to all posters:

If everything about this situation as described here was exactly the same, except the niece had a puppy that she had grown tired of and wanted to put to sleep, what would you think Straight Story should o then?

Pay for it? Offer to raise it himself? Something else?

Think about that. A puppy.

[Matariki]

79. huh?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

80. Is the puppy inside her body?

You do realize if the neice had a live birth and wanted 10 bucks for a pillowwith which to suffocate it, I would recommend against the loan? No?

He and his wife's issue is not with abortion. His wife had one. She GOT to make her choice. They initially said "YES." If their morals were so anti-abortion, YES would have never crossed their minds.

[StellaBlue]

89. It was only hypothetical

I was trying to wrap my own mind around it with the puppy thing.

It seems that we do not fully understand the gravity of the situation or the bad, bad place the niece is in, regardless of her choice. She is a 26-year-old child, totally unable to live in reality, and probably has some serious inner demons and entitlement-related rage issues as a result.

If she decides to have an abortion, I think Straight Story should definitely stop enabling and make her pay her way or throw her out. Not as punishment, but because that's her only chance. If she has an abortion, she will have a second chance. To avoid being a grown baby herself. It sounds like Straight Story now realizes she should've been made to be independent before this situation developed.

I just don't get the vitriolic response to Straight Story. He's not saying she CAN'T or even she SHOULDN'T have an abortion - just that he doesn't want to pay for it. Why is it his responsibility? Why has almost no one mentioned the FATHER? This is far more his responsibility that the uncle's, for godsakes.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

95. Up to this point, his family played a role in her dependent bahavior

Then the moment she is MOST vulnerable he cuts her off?

Sorry. That is just plain sadistic given the brevity of the situation.

Make her pay back, kick her out or whatever AFTER she has made her decision.

That father is an irresponsible piece of crap based on SS's post. That's why this young woman went to her family and sought their support and instead got their CONDITIONAL support.

[LeftyMom]

86. This isn't the same at all

This isn't some gurgling, puking live baby she's grown tired of, it's a pregnancy she never wanted. Your analogy makes no sense.

[StellaBlue]

94. "some gurgling, puking live baby "

What is WITH the anti-baby rhetoric?!

And from a LeftyMom!

[LeftyMom]

100. I was trying to think of noices babies make

Maybe other people's kids make cute noises, mine had colic. Gurgling and puking was cute noises, compared to the banshee shrieking.

I love kids and I'd be thrilled to have more, but those first six months are pure hell. (Well, the first week wan't too bad, he just nursed and slept. Then the hell kicked in.)

[StellaBlue]

104. haha

Despite what my posts look like on this topic, I am not enamored with babies, never have to urge to pick them up, cuddle them, talk silly to them, etc. I generally view them as puking and gurgling machines... thinking about it... haha

I prefer puppies. Seriously.

[U4ikLefty]

108. Oops, your colors are showing!!!

If you can't tell the difference between a fetus & a BORN puppy, then you need to watch more Sesame Street.

[Misunderestimator]

230. "Anti-baby rhetoric"

OMG! :rofl:

Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha

:rofl: :spray: :rofl:

[StellaBlue]

99. and

While I can totally comprehend having an unexpected pregnancy, this seems like a blatant case of selfishness and irresponsibility.

Unlike responsible people using reliable, regular protection, she has chosen to put herself in the position where the chances were

she'd get pregnant

she'd be unemployed

she'd get no support from the father

So I don't feel very sorry for her, I'm sorry.

Having said that, I still maintain that she has every right to have an abortion, it might very well be the right thing for her to do, but Straight Story is not responsible for her if she is a 26-year-old woman. He is not compelled to do ANYTHING against his own conscience, and neither is she.

And thus we are at an impasse.

[LeftyMom]

109. Here's where I'm coming from

My own mother sounds a bit like his neice. If anything, she was in a somewhat better situation as her first pregnancy (with me) was wanted, she was married, had a job. However like the poster's neice, she was (and is, 25 years later) a very immature woman. Having been raised by a mother like that (at the times she was in-state and involved, anyhow, she left when I was small) I think he's doing his potential great-neice/nephew a disservice. This woman should not be a mother and she knows that.

I'm not asking you to feel sorry for her, although she sounds rather child-like and I admit I do feel bad for her. I just think it's in her best interest (and the potential child's) that she be allowed to terminate her pregnancy. The Straight Story made a commitment and should honor it or disentangle himself from the situation entirely.

[StellaBlue]

115. I hate to sound like a fundie

(I AM NOT), but - do you wish you had been aborted?

This is getting into very tricky water.

I don't think the fact that she may be an imperfect mother is, in itself, grounds for advocating abortion. Who has a perfect mother? I can't think of any.

And, I reiterate, I support full nationalized healthcare including free abortions for all.

It just seems to me that a lot of talk about this issue is more about political point-scoring and proving who's the staunchest pro-choicer or pro-lifer and not about the actual nuances of these situations.

And, Straight Story's question was whether he did the right thing. I say, if he's done some soul searching and deep thought about it, and followed his conscience, then, yes, he's done the right thing.

I am not saying I would do the same thing. From what I have read, I probably would, but then I might not. I haven't spent the requisite amount of time soul searching, anyway. I've only been hearing about this for the past hour, not the past 4 months.

[LeftyMom]

129. If I had been, I would never know :shrug:

As I said, circumstances were somewhat different in that I was a wanted child of a planned conception so there was never a question about abortion (of course, my mother had no idea what having a child entailed :eyes: if she had, I think she'd have run screaming to the clinic) and more importantly I had one non-fuck up parent to fall back on. Thank the FSM for my father, he's not the best with kids but he did right by us.

That said, I fully support a woman's right to choose. My mother is equally pro-choice and if she'd decided not to carry a pregnancy to term I'd be perfectly willing to support her without judgment.

[WildClarySage]

239. Yes, she made her choices and she should be severely and

possibly life-threateningly punished for them. Stupid bitch gets what's coming to her for being irresponsible and careless. And a real, living breathing human baby is just the punishment she deserves.

Is that what you mean?

[StellaBlue]

247. No.

AGAIN, she has every right to have an abortion if that's what she chooses is best for her.

But you can't ignore the fact that consequences follow actions (or inactions), and in this case, it is not her uncle's fault that she is pregnant. He didn't impregnante her, and he has every right to follow his own conscience, just as she does.

[Solly Mack]

90. roflmao

yeah, that's really an apt analogy :sarcasm:

lololololololol

Mary, mother of my cousin Sally, but what the hell does a puppy have to do with anything?

Yes, people on DU really care about animals...but if your point is to attempt to mischaracterize us as people who care more about animals than people, then you're wrong in every way imaginable.

A puppy is not a fetus - unless said puppy is still in the womb of the dog.

A fetus is not a person.

But most importantly - a woman is not a Goddamn dog.

Hey Sue Crisco! We got warped thinking people wanting to make women second-class citizens to a fetus and now it's - but think of the puppies! Gee, we're puppy killers now too.

Abortion - Think about the Puppies!

ROFLMAO

[StellaBlue]

110. Oh, puh-leeze

Attack, attack, attack!

We're on the same team here... or so I was led to believe.

That doesn't mean we have to be monolithic.

The puppy was just what popped into my head, it's not about animals v. fetuses. It just seems to me like people can quite easily brush aside a fetus as if it is nothing at all. I don't think a fetus = a person, either, but my point is, a fetus might possibly be as important as a puppy.

That's why I now feel that I couldn't have an abortion, as scary as an unwanted pregnancy would be (and since I am female I have some comprehension of what this would feel like!). My conscience (maybe not yours, and that's find, like I said, I don't think fetus = person) would prevent me from terminating my own pregnancy. Now that I am an adult and emotionally and financially able to handle a baby.

But it seems like we are maybe treating this niece like she's a CHILD. She's not. She acts like one, sure, but she's not.

The reason the puppy thing popped into my head was because it seems like she is being a selfish, self-entitled parasite herself. She doesn't seem to comprehend at all that this fetus is anything more than an unwanted diversion. When a woman really feels that she cannot handle an unwanted baby, she shouldn't be forced to have it. I agree. We all agree, I think. But my point is, I guess, Straight Story is not forcing her. The circumstances she has put herself in may be, but that's not his responsibility. And I do not believe that she cannot get an abortion if she wants one. Does she have no friends? Is there a UU church anywhere near there? A phone book with a 'pregnancy help' section - something?

In this situation, I might give her the money. But I don't think Straight Story should act against his conscience.

[Solly Mack]

119. a fetus is nothing compared to a woman

The puppy analogy was stupid. If my saying so bothers you, I don't care. I didn't attack you, I laughed at your message.

I don't give a good god damn if you would have an abortion or not - it's none of my business what you do with your body.

The only people treating the neice as a child are those who take the paternalistic attitude that she needs to learn a lesson about unwanted pregnancy.

[StellaBlue]

138. and to this

I never said I wouldn't give her the money.

My MAIN point, my ORIGINAL point, was that Straight Story is right in following his own conscience. Just as his niece ought to.

[U4ikLefty]

121. Don't make weak analogies & then yell "attack" when called on it

YOU ALONE made the analogy and then you get all huffy when called out about it.

And your opinion of the pregnant woman as a "selfish, self-entitled parasite" whom "doesn't seem to comprehend at all that this fetus is anything more than an unwanted diversion", tells more about your predisposition about this predicament than any analogy you could come up with.

[Solly Mack]

122. Bingo!

And your opinion of the pregnant woman as a "selfish, self-entitled parasite" whom "doesn't seem to comprehend at all that this fetus is anything more than an unwanted diversion", tells more about your predisposition about this predicament than any analogy you could come up with.

[StellaBlue]

154. I am a feminist, but also have the ability to reason.

Just because she's a young, unmarried, unemployed woman with an unwanted pregnancy doesn't make her a martyr.

She sounds like a selfish parasite. Her being pregnant doesn't change that.

[StellaBlue]

148. 'Puppy killers'?

See, that was just inflammatory. You knew that was not my intent.

I was just thinking, that that quasi-analogy was a challenge to myself as someone who supports free abortion and nationalized healthcare. It hadn't ever occured to me until I thought about this irresponsible woman. But I would have been scandalized if Straight Story had said his 26-year-old-niece wanted to put her puppy to sleep because she was tired of it. Yet I wasn't scandalized at all that she wanted to abort a fetus because she is so mentally immature.

Also, for the record, I think that irresponsibility in itself is no reason to think she shouldn't get an abortion if that's what she wants. But this is a case of BLATANT disregard for herself, her own best interests, and her family. No contraceptives?! What was this person THINKING?!

And, again, I reiterate: she should get the abortion if that's what is best for HER. It's up to her conscience.

[Solly Mack]

153. No matter how many times you repeat and defend your analogy, it will still

be stupid.

[StellaBlue]

155. And no matter how many times you post in reply

You will still be acting in a rude, inflammatory manner.

Why is it ridiculable (okay, at 3:17am I think I can get away with totally making up new words a la Jesse Jackson, bless him!) that I think a fetus is possibly equal to a puppy?

Can you answer my central question?

I did not ever say a fetus was equal to or more than a woman. And I've done a lot of thinking about the nature of fetuses, being a woman. And a woman who once thought she was two months INTO an unwanted pregnancy.

[Solly Mack]

158. Am I supposed to be impressed that you're a woman?

I only ask because you keep bringing it up like it changes anything about the stupid analogy.

Your "central question", as you are now calling call that very stupid analogy you made, was answered


a woman is not a god damn dog

the situation isn't the same and never will be

[StellaBlue]

162. YES

It's. Not. The. Same.

But we would all be horrified if she wanted to kill a puppy.

JUST SOMETHING I WAS THINKING ABOUT.

I could understand the flames if I had said that she had no right to an abortion or that she should be punished. I didn't say either. I said she should be able to do whatever she wants but that it's not her uncle's responsibility.

The only reason I mentioned being a woman is because I have been in a position that I thought I was pregnant and, thus, I do have some inkling of what she is thinking. I am not totally unsympathetic to her. However, despite the fact that she is in a VERY unenviable situation, the fact remains that she is an adult.

If I was a 14-year-old boy, for instance, I would have no idea what that situation would be like. Since I have never actually had to call and make an appointment for an abortion, nor have I had to carry an unwanted baby to term, I also do not have the degree of empathy that someone in that position would be able to have with her.

[Solly Mack]

167. I'd be horrified if she wanted to kill a new BORN baby...but it's a fetus

as a baby can be equated with a puppy more accurately than a puppy can be equated with a fetus. If I even wanted to take that line of reasoning...and I don't. It's just not applicable to the nieces situation.

If she was neglecting a new BORN baby and wanted to put the new BORN baby to sleep, I'd be beyond horrified....but I'm not getting my thong in a wad over a fetus. And I'm certainly not going to compare a puppy to a fetus and think that a viable (teehee) argument.

[StellaBlue]

171. Well...

I agree.



I just wonder where we draw the line.

It would be MUCH easier, psychologically, to have an abortion at 2 weeks than at 4 MONTHS. But is it okay at 8 months? 9? Dunno myself... just dunno...

Again, not too sound to freepered-out, but a newborn baby isn't very far removed from one that was just in the womb. This is especially complicated in my mind now that we can keep preemies alive so much earlier than previously thought possible. But a newborn (or in this case, a 26-year-old), is not self-sufficient. It's parasitic like a fetus. Where is the line?

This is not intended to be rhetoric; this is seriously something that needs to be thought about and meditated upon, IMHO.

[U4ikLefty]

324. The line is BIRTH...simple. Before that the fetus is inside the mother.

[Misunderestimator]

232. But admit it...

it did make you :rofl: didn't it? :rofl:

[Solly Mack]

279. I honestly laughed out loud at it

[Lone_Star_Dem]

116. Tell me you didn't just equate raising a child to raising a puppy?

I guess then it's alright if she leaves it outside with a bowl of water and kibble when she goes to work, too?

[U4ikLefty]

125. LOL...good boy, here's a Snausage...who's a good boy!!!

great stuff!!!

[StellaBlue]

144. and, no

I was comparing killing a fetus to killing a puppy.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

161. See my post 151

I said I hope you didn't take offense to the kibble joke (It appears I was too late).

Here's a puppy fetus pic as a peace offering. :hi:



You can't tell but its a border collie.

This is intended to be funny, not insulting. I hope it comes across as such. :)

[sandnsea]

126. Her dog needs an abortion

Because it's very very small and is carrying too many puppies. It's in the best interest of the dog. Should somebody help her to pay for it, even though she ought to be responsible for her dog herself?

[StellaBlue]

132. NOT LISTENING

Any hint of someone not being in the I-can-prove-I'm-a-stauncher-pro-choicer-than-you camp, and all you get is ridicule.

Mental shut down. Ridicule time.

It wasn't a straight-up analogy.

I'm not 'showing my colors'. What the bloody hell is that supposed to mean?

I just have a sneaking suspicion that, if this was about a puppy rather than a fetus, the reaction would've been one of horror.

Which, to me, says a lot about US ALL.

[Solly Mack]

137. HA! So even though you denied the analogy being about "animals v. fetuses"

You're now claiming it is just that!

I just have a sneaking suspicion that, if this was about a puppy rather than a fetus, the reaction would've been one of horror.

edit to add your comment in post 110

The puppy was just what popped into my head, it's not about animals v. fetuses.

[StellaBlue]

139. that wasn't my point

I was responding to you alluding to this being some kind of weird, twisted, come-around-from-behind animal rights issue.

[StellaBlue]

140. ...

Puppy < Fetus < Woman

There, we're all happy now.

[Solly Mack]

141. Yes it was - that's why you made the analogy to start with

then back-pedaled on the analogy, only to later admit that was your intentions to begin with


I didn't make the "twisted" analogy. YOU DID. That was YOU and ONLY you. YOU compared a fetus to a puppy. Let's not get confused on who said what, ok?

[StellaBlue]

146. Oh, give it up.

I thought you didn't care about my opinions.

I'm sorry if I think the decision to have an abortion is as important as the decision to kill a puppy. That's just INSANE, isn't it?

:eyes:

[Solly Mack]

149. LOL

I said I didn't give a damn if you had an abortion - I didn't say shit about your opinions (though I did mock your analogy)...but go ahead and ah...what word would be keeping in the rules since I can't use that three letter word....let's see...ah, yes, since you decide to "make up from whole cloth" what I actually said.


ROFLMAO

[Lone_Star_Dem]

151. I really don't think you're right on that

People do love cute animals, few love 'em more than me.

But I fully understand what an unwanted pregnancy is like, they're not the same.

I've watched while several of my daughters school mates have children they don't want and don't really like out of guilt.

I babysat this summer for one girl and she cried and told me she wished she would have had a miscarriage. She actually hit her stomach trying to lose the baby because her parents were against abortion. How messed up is that?

No hard feelings on the kibble joke I hope, it was just begging to be said. :hi:

[StellaBlue]

157. I understand that

I did that when I was 17 and was convinced by my domineering dad that I was pregnant (even though I knew that was almost statistically impossible for a variety of reaons that are too embarrassing/funny to go into here).

And I think a teenager and a 26-year-old are totally different. That was part of my point, too. She is an ADULT. She should be able to handle this. It's NOT a puppy she got at Christmas and got tired of.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

169. This is one of those situations where we really don't know

the other side of the story.

We don't know her and if she's able to take care of it herself. We don't know the daddy nor how he feels here. We only have one persecutive and it's going to be slanted. For all we know she's an emotionally dependant and can't take care of anything herself. Or, she could just be the irresponsible loser he makes her out to be.

I did tell him he made his choice and has to deal with her being angry.

[sandnsea]

234. NO, You're NOT listening

A LIVE animal is not a fetus. Just like a LIVE baby is not a fetus. Of course people would be upset about LIVE animals being killed. I suspect YOU wouldn't give two thoughts about animal fetuses being aborted though, to protect the health of a dog. I know few people who would think twice about an abortion to protect a dog. That, to me, says a lot about US ALL. Pregnant dogs get more consideration than pregnant women.

[StellaBlue]

254. Now you've introduced another facet

It doesn't sound to me like this is a health-of-the-mother situation. Immaturity-of-the-mother, and thus, perhaps, mental-stability-of-the-mother, could be argued, though, yes.

The sad thing is we are all here debating the various finer points of this, and yet we have an actual family in a tragic situation, all around.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

289. A better analogy: If the niece had laid an egg

and she chose not to be a mother, she could abandon it, and the egg would most likely be consumed by a predator.

[StellaBlue]

309. True

But do you mean like a chicken's egg or a human's egg? Because a chicken's egg would already be fertilized, and so you could also compare it to a baby (an actually born baby). Both are still parasites, in terms of these analogies. If it's a human egg, it's not an embryo or fetus, just an unfertilized egg. Like you shed every month.

So if she laid a human egg, she's either just having her period (no analogy to a baby), or she's dropped an embryo.

:crazy:

[JVS]

302. LOL

[Cats Against Frist]

330. Stella, I get your analogy

Though most of the posters responding are acting like goonie-eyed freepers -- black and white thinkers of the WORST kind -- in responding to your post, you certainly have a point.

Just as I tell wingnuts that saying life begins at "the moment of conception," is an arbitrary assignment -- so too, are the pronouncements that "a fetus is not a human," and whatever arbitrary constructs that the people who are clearly showing a bias toward abortion, on this board -- no matter what the circumstances -- assign to humans and fetuses and dogs. Your comparison is APT, in that little area that we like to call "critical thinking." It may not be an exact analogy, but, philosophically, it's worth taking into consideration. It has bearing on human emotion, the way we view ourselves and other species, and you're goddamn right you can say that "a fetus is not a human," but whatever the abortion brigade wants to say -- people can arbitrarily assign qualities of humanity to that fetus.

There wasn't one day that my son was swimming in my belly, that I though, "gee, how fucking interesting, I have a fetus inside of me." He was my baby, and I loved him -- and I don't care if he had six cells and a piece of slime for an eyeball, or if he's just shot the fucking president, wearing a T-shirt that says "I'VE COME OUT THE VAGINAL CANAL, AND THEREFORE, I AM ALIVE," on national television, he's my son.

I am pro-choice, but good god, I'm not pro-willing-to-proclaim-absolutes-about-fetuses-and-humans. That's just stupid. Your comparison is apt. It's about to whom and what we assign "life," and why. It is not black and white, and no one, from the wildest God-knows-you-in-the-womb fundie nutbag, to the cold, grey pronouncement of "a fetus is not a human," has the authority to say what's right for everybody else.

You know what, I'm actually the person on the other side of the coin, and I don't much like animals, to tell you the truth, and if I caught a woman on the way to an abortion clinic, and she said, "Hey, I'll have this baby if you shoot FiFi with a nailgun, right between the eyes," I'd probably kill the dog. Not because I'm not pro-choice, or because I'm a fundie, or I want to see R v. W repealed, or any other nonsense. It's simply that I assign more value to humans than animals. And so does anyone else who eats meat. And nobody better give me any shit about "but a dog is domesticated," either, because that's another load of arbitrary arbitrary-ness.

The usual suspects are here, trying to proclaim that a "fetus is not a human," like the Spaghetti Monster, himself, bathed them in his holy boiling water and told them all the truths about life.

You have a point. And the people who won't consider it, are showing you the same cognitive dissonance that the dumbest sidewalk fundie wears on his or her sleeve.

[titoresque]

84. im with you

dont give her the money. She's a grown woman she needs to start acting like it! I am pro-choice......but I feel strongly that you don't just go get an abortion because it's going to be inconvenient....because you won't be able to be the baby anymore.....thats a disgusting reason to abort!
Unfortunately by not giving her the money she may have an unwanted child, however it is not your responsibility to take care of this situation! There are MANY people who never grow up because family members are always there to enable this sort of behavior......which will likey happen if you give her the money. I say TOUGH LOVE...stick to your guns on this! Save your money.

Just my 2 cents
Peace.

[earth mom]

101. This is a tough situation all around but...

while you are not wrong for not wanting her to have the abortion or wrong for not wanting to finance it, you are wrong for wanting her to have the baby so you can have another child. What you want is irrelevant and should not be part of the equation and probably should not have been mentioned in the first place.

Ultimately, it's her life, her personal choice and her responsibility.

Good luck to you all.

[StellaBlue]

142. ?!

"you are wrong for wanting her to have the baby so you can have another child"

When did he say this exactly? I am confused by this harping on about his secret desperate desire for a baby...

[StellaBlue]

143. deleted duplicate

[oldcoot]

147. In the original post

In the original post, the OP stated "My wife and I desperately want another child and would gladly take it in, as would my sister."

[StellaBlue]

159. Okay, apologies

I totally missed that!

[redacted]

105. Your profile says you live in Columbus. I don't know Columbus THAT well.

But I suspect that if your neice was motivated -- she could find a way to get the procedure done. Columbus has a large infrastructure set up for all the young women at the university, no doubt.

She has been pregnant for 4 months -- she has probably known for 3 months, if she hasn't -- she has more psychological issues here than a lack of responsibility. If she had had the procedure done promptly, it would have cost much less. Is this a cry for help, is she being pressured?

If she had been raped -- I'd say she was a victim and you should help her. If she had come to you when she was 6 weeks pregnant I'd say -- give her a chance, give a job around your house to raise the money , or pay you back. But she got here by her choice, and for whatever reason for 3 months whether through ambivialence or mental illness she has not been dealing with her reality.

However, she can also still get out of this mess of she acts quickly. Can you find out what is really going on with her (you may not because this has been somewhat bungled) and find out what kind of help she really wants. (see my message to NSMA above)

Inhindsight-- you might have waited to tell her father. I worry about the stress knowing this will have on him.

Good luck and give us an update. Family situations are tough.

[The Straight Story]

332. A few things

One, it is her grandfather (my dad).

Two, She has suspected she was pregnant for some time but just confirmed it.

Three, it appears her BF is pressuring her immensely. She is afraid to lose him and he will leave if she has it - and from what I know of her and talks we have had recently I don't think she truly wants to have an abortion - but she is faced with a big life change plus losing her BF.

Will post an update when I get one, thanks for the civil input!

[U4ikLefty]

113. Are you supplying her with resources to Planned Parenthood

and other pro-choice organizations in your area??? Or are you just hoping that she will just submit to your family's wishes over her rights as a woman???

[tjdee]

170. She's almost 30! She can supply her own self with resources to PP!

I don't think the OP, or anyone in the OP's family is trying to force her to have the baby.

They're just saying they won't pay for it. It is up to HER and her POS boyfriend to get the money.

[Benbow]

179. She could have had protected sex - why doesn't she take responsibility?

[Scout]

192. she is taking responsibility

she is trying to terminate a pregnancy she doesn't want to carry to term.

Duh.

[LisaL]

200. She can't afford terminating the pregnancy.

She just wants someone else to bail her out, just as before.

[Tomee450]

235. Right

but she should not expect someone else to pay for her abortion. If she wants it that bad, she should demand that her boyfriend get a job or sell his electronics. I find some of these posts incredible. Since when should family members be responsible for the irresponsible behavior of other members. This woman has choices but she refuses to act. Some women work almost to the end of their pregnancy. I have a family member just like this woman. Finally, everyone got tired of her and refuses to give her a dime. She has been angry at the family for years but no one cares because we know we did our best for her.

[LisaL]

207. This woman is 26 year old.

For crying out loud, she is all grown up, and still expects others to do everything for her. It's ridiculous.

[IdaBriggs]

118. Her choice to abort or not -- she can find other solutions if needed

for sources for the money.

HOWEVER, it is NOT in the best interests of the child for any member of your family to "adopt" it UNLESS you have made up your mind NOT to have anything to do with her (your niece) EVER AGAIN.

This situation is simply too volatile and confusing. I'm sorry you and your wife desperately want a child (my husband and I are in the same boat), but unless there is a clear level of emotional maturity where your niece is going to NOT be the "mommy" FOR THE REST OF THE CHILD'S LIFE, you and yours are NOT the best home.

Picture "family Christmas" three years from now: beautiful two year old, your niece, and the misery of the family dynamics that come from "you stole my baby because of my economic destitution which is better now!" (shudder)

Grandpa's efforts are kind, but not long term living solutions, either.

If she can't handle the emotional repercussions of adoption, doesn't want to be a mommy with the daddy, and isn't prepared for single motherhood, then abortion is a legitimate alternative. Your unwillingness to pay for it is also understandable, but does make you a target for being "unsupportive" -- you are being judgmental, and you are being unsupportive, so its a fair call on her part. It doesn't make you wrong, since you have a right to decide what you want to do with your money, and she is ultimately responsible for her own life choices, but she really had no business involving you in this drama.

If you were the one who blew the whistle on her private business with the rest of the family, however, you really overstepped appropriate boundaries, and you owe her a huge apology. If she asked to borrow money from you in confidence, and now everyone knows about what she's dealing with, you were not only unsupportive, but manipulative and untrustworthy. (I hope I read your post wrong, and that isn't what you were saying.) This type of "dysfunctional boundary crossing" would definitely be one more strike against an "in family" adoption situation.

Good luck to her.

[LisaL]

206. Or two years from now, she sees a young child and starts

screaming that she was forced to have an abortion when she really wanted the baby. At four months, it's basically getting too late for her to have an abortion anyway. WTF was she thinking during this time?

[demobabe]

120. I would have done the same thing - without a second thought

She's 26. Unemployed. No birth control for 2 years. Her boyfriend didn't use birth control either.

Now four months pregnant, she wants to abort? Bad judgment and irresponsibility doesn't begin to describe this person (and her boyfriend).

Nobody is denying her any choice: you're more than gracious in offering to adopt her child.

Maybe her boyfriend can abort his x-box so he can afford the abortion? You mean to tell me neither of these people own a car that they could sell if the abortion was that important to them?

Fishing these people out of this situation is only going to promote fishing them out of more bad situations (and possibly more abortions). They need to be responsible for their situation.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

124. Are you wanting to know if you should give her the money?

Or if she should be angry with you?

If she can't pay for a $550 abortion do you honestly think she's in a position to be raising a child? Not even going into the fact that you say she's immature and irresponsible. Being responsible for the forming of another persons life is the ultimate responsibility. Then there's the fact that parenting is a minimum of 18 years in-house-hands-on-every-day-of-your-life job.

Do you think she'll put the child up for adoption? If so do you think she'd give it to you? Statistically speaking most unwanted pregnancies that go to term are kept buy the mother. Some are raised well, many are not.

Then there's the father to consider, he's a part of the child's life, too. If he pays his child support he will then be allowed to see the child and help form the person they will grow up to be. I don't know the guy so I don't know if that's a positive or negative.

I assume she's considered all of these issues and that's how she come to her decision.

Should you pay for her right to choose? No, that's not your responsibility if you don't want to you shouldn't have to. However, you told her you would and then you told her you wouldn't. Then you told her only other source for the money what she would do with it knowing it would keep her from getting it.

You made your choice and now have to deal with the repercussions.

You will probably end up with a very angry niece who resents you.

Hopefully, you won't end up with a mistreated great-niece or nephew to add to that list.

Just so you know, it's a very horrible thing to be raised by a mother who never wanted you and resents you. I wouldn't wish that off on any child.

[ima_sinnic]

128. I find your response judgmental, punitive, and self-serving

She said she wanted an abortion and she has proven herself too immature and irresponsible to have a baby. That really should be all you need to know. You should be helping her get that abortion without so much running around yapping about it and bringing in everybody else for their opinion.

I find your attitude of "if she had the abortion we would all still love her anyway--but we won't pay for it" shameful. You are using an unwanted pregnancy as a tool with which to manipulate her. It sounds like you want her to have the baby as a punishment for her own poor decisions. You also violated a confidence by going to your father with her personal business. He did not "need to know."

[Benbow]

177. We are talking about an adult here - she should shift for herself n/t

[Tomee450]

244. What are you talking about?

This is an adult who has made a bad decision. She is not even the original poster's child and he has helped her in the past. She acts irresponsibly, neither she nor the boyfriend uses birth control, then ask the family to help her get an abortion. He did the right thing, imo. What if she get pregnant again. She has not shown that she is mature. If she asks for money for another abortion, should it be given to her? This is not even a teenager but a 26 year old adult who by now should be showing some signs of maturity. If she lacks the maturity to raise a child, whose fault is that?

[VelmaD]

245. So...reneging on his offer to pay for it was...

the right thing to do? Violating her confidence by telling other family members without her consent...was the right thing to do?

[LisaL]

248. No, but I understand how it might have happened.

Sometimes in wanting to help a relative, one might decide to do what he doesn't really want to do. After having some time to think about it, that person might realize they can not do it in good conscious.

[VelmaD]

251. That still does not excuse...

breaking her confidence. What excuse are you gonna come up with to absolve him of that?

[LisaL]

253. The poster was concerned for his elderly and sick father,

knowing the father would be crashed if he gave her the money, then found out what it was for.

[VelmaD]

258. Bullshit

So telling his sick elderly father his niece was pregnant and wanted to abort was somehow GOOD for his health?

And I don't care what excuse he (or you) comes up with...violating her trust was WRONG. Period.

[StellaBlue]

259. Ultimately

Her fault.

It's very freeing when you wake up and realize that you can only answer for, and depend on, yourself. And that, regardless of past mistakes, only YOU can change your own life. And then sto pmaking excuses.

I hope she realizes this before it's too late, but I doubt that's going to happen. At 26. It's already too late for the baby, one way or the other.

[girl gone mad]

134. For what it's worth, if you make it this far in the thread..

I would not give her the money.

26 is pretty old to still be mooching off of the family. What if she gets to be older and regrets not having children? From what you describe, I think she could end up blaming you.

I had my baby when I was young, much younger than her. If I made a decision to have an abortion, the responsibility to pay for it would be mine and my partner's. The whole family has an obligation to help raise a child, on the other hand.

[tjdee]

163. Why did she wait until four months? And HER BOYFRIEND? Aww, hell naw.

I'm the pro-choiciest person on the block, but if *she* wants an abortion, she and HER BOYFRIEND find the money.

When I was pregnant and considered abortion for a hot second, not once did I go gee, let me go ask my pro-life mom for the money. That is the height of irresponsibility, and almost funny in its brazenness and ridiculousness. And if I *did* ask, I'd be prepared to be refused and wouldn't pitch a fit over it.

Maybe in four months, her good for nothing boyfriend should have gotten another job for the money. This is FOUR MONTHS into the process. What have they been doing for four months??

Bottom line--you shouldn't have to get the money. She is 26, not 15.
She can find out from Planned Parenthood if they have resources, and/or she can find an adoption agency. Or, her BOYFRIEND can get off his ass and ask HIS family and friends for money.

[StellaBlue]

164. PEOPLE!

Let's remember what we all agree on here:

1) Straight Story is in an unfortunate situation and has all our support and best wishes;

2) Straight Story's niece is in a far more unfortunate situation and deserves to have the opportunity to exercize her right to choice;

3) A fetus does not equal a puppy. Unless it is a border collie fetus.

4) George W. Bush can kiss my ass. IMPEACH!

:grouphug:

[tjdee]

168. LOL--she deserves the opportunity to exercise her choice, but she's

not doing ANYTHING.

(the LOL was for Bush.)

She and her boyfriend have done, basically, nothing for four months. They have had four months to come up with the money (WTF with this boyfriend, doesn't he have a family to beg for money), to contact Planned Parenthood, to seek out adoption agencies, etc.

She is almost 30. This is not some unfortunate teenage couple.

I feel strongly that a kid coming into this situation is obviously at a disadvantage, but I don't think the OP is at fault in any way.

[Benbow]

176. Sorry - people are not dogs - a human fetus has the potential to change

the world for good or ill. Unless he/she is murdered.

Edited for clarity.

[VelmaD]

196. You are incorrecton #1

He does not have my support. What he did in breaking his niece's confidence and telling other family members was reprehensible and if I was his niece I'd personally never speak to him again. I think the fact that he broke her confidence says everything you need to know about how he really views this situation.

Oh, and if he was really so damn anti-abortion...he never would have agreed to pay for it in the first place. It's about control and it's ugly.

[Maine-ah]

181. at four months pregnant she is possibly too far along to have

an abortion.

I was 22 when I had an abortion, and 12 weeks was the "cut off". I was living with my BF, who is now my husband. We had jobs, and an apartment, trying to be responsible. No health insurance. Most likely would have had help from family, but I was just begining to be responsible for myself, let alone a child.

Now, ten years later, I'm ready for kids. In some respects, I feel bad about having an abortion, but for the most part, I very glad about my decision.

The only "bad" thing I can see in your whole situation, is that if she doesn't get the money, she might possibly do bodily harm to herself if she truely does not want this child.

But, I also say kudos to you and her father for offering to help with medical bills and other financial aspects of raising a child.

Good luck, and I hope your niece makes the best choice for her, NOT for anyone else.

[bleedingheart]

194. depends upon the state, 20 weeks is the limit in some

the fetal alpha protein test done to detect Downs Syndrome is done at 17 weeks and the woman has only a short window of time to decide to abort after finding out the results here in PA.

[WildClarySage]

255. You are not correct on this- the AFP test is not done to detect

downs syndrome, it is done to screen for the potential for chromosomal abnormalities. It's performed between 16 and 18 weeks, takes a week to get a result (1 in 69 odds for Trisomy 18, was what my AFP test returned two weeks ago) but an amniocentisis is needed for a diagnosis of any chromosomal abnormalities suspected, a procedure that takes 10-14 days for results. At 20 weeks, a level II ultrasound is usually performed to look for developmental defects, and abortion is often suggested when they are found. Parents are encouraged to take the time they need to make an appropriate decision for their families, and abortions for abnormalities (chromasomal or developmental) are often done as late as 24-28 weeks.

[BooScout]

186. Sorry but you are wrong....

You and your family sound like you have been enabling her for years.

You broke a confidence to her and a promise and from what it sounds like, you did it for your own selfish agenda. Do you really want her to look at her child years down the road and remember how she felt about it when it was still in her womb? Whether you adopt it or not, the entire situation you have helped create (yes you helped get your family to this point) is nothing but a nightmare scenario.

[alphafemale]

187. She has some nerve to call anything a parasite.

She's never going to take responsibility for anything if people keep "rescuing" her from her own bad choices.

If you really love her.

Let her fall on her ass.

Maybe she'll learn to walk on her own two feet rather than be carried through life.

[Liz_Estrada]

197. an important point I think has been missed

Straight Story has said several times that his neice loves kids and has always wanted one, but she is being pressured by the BF to have an abortion. I think the man's opinion shouldn't be the controlling factor in the decision to continue OR terminate a pregnancy. She shouldn't make this--or any--decision solely to please or keep a man if it's one that will haunt her later. I think her uncle SS is trying to help her see that her responsibility is to make a decision that she can live with, for reasons that she can live with, for the rest of her life. Changing his mind about the free money forces her to think how much she wants an abortion and why. When I was a teen, I had a friend who absolutely adored babies and children, and was pressured by parents to have an abortion at 15. She was still grieving ten years later, though the relationship with the guy was long over.

I also speak from my own experience: I had an abortion at 21, made the decision by myself and paid for it by myself. Thirty years later, I'm still thankful I made that decision because my reasons were my own. No man's opinion was involved--or needed--or an influence--either for or against.

I don't put my 2 cents in very often, but am always here--and I am just replying to --what was then!-- the immediately previous post for simplicity's sake.

[alphafemale]

205. An abortion at 4 mos. isn't something that should be done on a whim

And she should ABSOLUTELY pay for it herself.

Even nearly jobless and leaching off relatives, a 26 yr old surely has accumulated enough stuff they could sell or pawn off to raise $550. If that's her choice, she pays for it. Period.

No way I'd directly pay for a 4 mo. abortion because someone changed their mind or was being pressured by a loser boyfriend.

No way in hell. I'm as pro-choice as they come. I'd just choose not to have a part in it.

[LisaL]

214. Exactly. She got a car, given to her by her relatives again, but still.

She could sell it and get the money. It's a grown woman, she has a boyfriend. Sounds like he is the one wanting an abortion, well, if you want something, you got to pay for it.
I pity the poor child though, and imagine that if she actually has the child, her poor relatives will have to take care of her and that child since they seem to incapable to say NO to her.

[oldcoot]

198. They are still rescuing her

Even though the OP has decided not to pay for the abortion, the OP and his family are not allowing this woman to "fall on her ass." The OP and his family have already offered her a lot of assistance to encourage her to give birth.

Unfortunately, this decision may backfire on the OP and his family. Once the child is born, the OP and his family might have an increasingly difficult time saying "no" to her out of fear that the child will suffer or that she will take the child away from them. For example, if she asks for money for diapers, who is going to tell her "no?"

[alphafemale]

203. It will never be easy to say "No" or "Enough." "We're done"

If they don't do it now it will only be harder later.

Yeah. She'll use the baby to continue her dependance and have them pitying her, but they need to but an end to this nonsense.

[Northwind]

193. Utter Bullshit

You can coat yourself in homilies about personal responsibility and how she lives in a dream world. You can pretend you are a good person because you are offering to adopt the baby. You can make excuses for yourself and the rest of your family until the world edns, but the bottom line is this:

You are exactly the same as the politicans who try to take away women's rights, and exactly the same as the freeper assholes parading around in fron of clinics with giant photos of dead babies. You are trying to control her, and you have no right to do it.

[LisaL]

199. Excuse me. Yet, it's her right to have an abortion.

Just as it is the poster's right not to pay for it.
If you are so freaking sorry for this woman, maybe you should donate her abortion money?
:eyes:

[StellaBlue]

264. I think that's an unfair attack

She DOES have the right to an abortion.

And HE has the right NOT to pay for it.

Sounds like the niece is the one who's been controlling the family, to me.

And, as much as I disagree with creepy freepers parading around in front of clinics... as long as they are not violent or threatening (which they often ARE), then they have a RIGHT to free speech, too.

And, of course, if we take away their right to free speech... then... da da da DUM - they can take away ours, too. And that sucks for everyone.

NOTE: I have counter-protested antiabortion freepers.

[bleedingheart]

195. You may be creating an even bigger nightmare for that child

if she ends up having it.

Imagine this.

She doesn't give you that child but she depends upon you and your family for support.

When she feels like it she plays mom. When she doesn't you or someone else does..

and all the while that child gets tossed from home to home just like my cousin and when the kid ends up royally screwed up...you will end up judging the child and the mother... and then where will you be?

I have all too often seen these types of situations and when all the parties involved get tired of partially raising someone else's kid...they walk away ....

[salin]

201. I have worked with many kids in situations that you described

who are so used to the adults abandoning them - that over time, when shuffled to the next home - and not believing that this home will last - their behavior grows more defiant and unpleasant to create a self-fulfilling prophecy until the new home passes on them (ala not really my problem - I was just trying to help - but I don't need this headache for someone who isn't my kid...) - and the cycle often continues into adulthood - when a second cycle often emerges - in the form of young parenthood ... and that parent not having witnessed anything about parenting (given the cycle described above) treats parenthood in the way they experienced childhood. Tragic.

[randr]

202. Give her the money

She would make a terrible mother.

[LisaL]

204. This is a grown woman with a grown boyfriend.

She expects everyone to bail her out, apparently, except making any effort to find a job and get the money on her own.

[salin]

208. of course time is of the essence

by the time she finds a job, and works the weeks before getting paid... time ticks on ...

Surely there are other alternatives - instead of "bailout" or "preventing her from caving to the bfs pressure"?

Loan plan - tied to job search and job acquisition? This would give a little time (but not a huge delay) for sorting out what she wants vs which pressure she is giving into - and give her the responsibility (financial) for either choice (that is, she now has a job and more resources if she keeps the child and/or has the job to pay off the loan if she doesn't keep the child.)

Surely there is more than a binary situation (give money or don't give money) and thus there are, or should be, multiple responses. In any case - the time element has to be considered.

[Scout]

211. why shouldn't she expect them to bail her out?

they've been doing it for her all her life.

They let her live there even though she doesn't pay rent. They gave her a car and let her keep it even when she didn't pay them back as promised, etc.

They are the perfect enablers, they have taught her that no matter how much she doesn't try to grow up and be an adult, that they will bail her out. So now she does EXACTLY what they have taught her to do all her life, and they don't want to help her this time because it's an abortion.

I don't blame her one bit for doing exactly what she's learned and gotten rewarded for doing all her life.

[LisaL]

212. Sad but true.

But perhaps they finally figured out that enough is enough.
If this woman really wants an abortion, perhaps she should sell that car and get the money this way. Sounds like having this abortion is another plan she devised to abuse her relatives. Knowing they are against abortion, she demands the money from them even though she is four months pregnant already.

[StellaBlue]

266. I do

Ultimately, as a grown woman, she is responsible for herself. The family can't live her life for her.

What's going to happen when the family is dead and she is all alone and 40something????

[progressivebydesign]

213. You can't force someone to have a baby. of course..

If she's serious about an abortion, then she should have been looking into other sources of funding for it. Any clinic can advise her on that route. She needs to work that out for herself, because you are not obligated in the least to pay for it. Sounds like she needs a dose of responsibility (She's 26???). She's not acting like it.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but just because you'd like a baby to adopt doesn't mean you should cajole your niece to have one and give it to you. If her temperament is as you describe, would you really want to raise that child with her constant interference? I know it's painful for you, since you'd like a baby, but I can foresee all types of troubles adopting from your niece. When her life calms down, or she's in another relationship, suddenly she'll want the child and where will that leave you.

I wish you well in this. Don't lend her the money if you are opposed to this, and that is your perfect right, I don't think anyone here would disagree with that. But don't withold the money simply because you want the baby for yourselves. That would be a bad motivation.

[in_cog_ni_to]

215. OK. Here's my opinion and you aren't gonna like it.

IMCPO, you aren't paying for the abortion because you and your wife want the baby. You admitted that. You initially agreed to pay for it, so you must have the money to do so? Then, you decide you want the baby and tell her you won't pay for it? That is not right. SHE doesn't want to give birth, doesn't want to be a mother....THAT is what's important here. You are blackmailing her, in a sense for selfish reasons. Send her to Planned Parenthood. They will help her if you can't find it in your heart to do so.

[LisaL]

218. Send her to planned parenthood? For crying out loud, this

woman isn't retarded, why couldn't she go to planned parenthood on her own at freaking 26 years old?

[Princess Turandot]

329. She's obviously spoken to some health clinic about an abortion if she

was asking for a specific $$ amount.

They have no obligation to her financially. None. They are her uncle and aunt. Not her parents. Not her boyfriend.

The OP's view is that he believes abortion should be legal for those who want it, but he personally believes it is morally wrong. Trying to force him to pay for her abortion against his conscience is blackmail as well.

[The Straight Story]

338. I don't need her to have another child for me

Can do that all by ourselves thank you. I was offering her another option.

I have 5 kids in my life, all my own. I have tried hard over the years to be there for her - from paying for a cross country trip (which she and I took to help her get her life straight) to giving her odd jobs to help her get money when she needed it, to just tossing her money to help out.

[Rabrrrrrr]

219. She's obviously an immature spoiled wanker,

someone you all should have kicked in the head 10 years ago but instead have decided to coddle and spoil and turn into a selfish, self-centered pig with no concern for other people.

And she obviously needs to learn a very serious lesson about life, a lesson which you all need to teach her.

However, this is not the time for you all to finally grow a spine, and this is not the lesson that she needs.

Pay for the abortion - it's not worth the risk to her, to the child, and to your family's sanity. She will NOT be able to let go of the baby, even if she lets you adopt it. Her inability to control herself will change dreadfully the dynamics of your family.

Let her have the abortion, pay for it -- actually, make the boyfriend pay for it. It's his problem, really.

Then kick her out of the house (after she's a month or two to heal) and tell her to get a job, get a life, and start paying her own way. She's never gonna survive unless you cut loose the bonds of dependancy; and it's safest to cut them while you are all still alive, so she has some people to help teach her while she flails around in the real world for a year or two.

[Rabrrrrrr]

220. AND WHERE'S THE DAMN BOYFRIEND IN ALL THIS?

Why aren't you guys including him in the discussion? If he works at a fucking toy store, he must have some money.

He's responsible for this mess, too.

[Misunderestimator]

221. Seriously... I would like to send her money... She has my utmost

sympathy for being related to such control freaks.

[LisaL]

224. Then do it. What's stopping you?

[Misunderestimator]

226. Well, I don't have a name and address for one...

That's rather obvious no? What's with the attitude?

[LisaL]

243. You could likely find it out from the original poster.

Considering you want to cough up 500$, I can give you mine.
LOL.

[dsc]

222. I haven't read the whole thread

and am by no means surprised that you are getting grief. It is amazing the total hypocracy of some pro choicers. We repeatedly hear that these are women who should be making their own choices and not treated like children, but then a case like this comes along and we should treat her like a child. This 26 year old needs to stop being enabled. Let her boyfriend get a job and pay for this if they really want it.

[LisaL]

223. Exactly. Pro-choice is her choice, but it doesn't mean

somebody is obliged to give her the money when she finally (after four months) decided to do it. I am sure she had other means to get the money, sounds like she has a car, and a freaking boyfriend. Why doesn't he fork up the money, he is the one that will end up paying child support if she has the baby?

[StellaBlue]

276. BINGO

[VelmaD]

228. Maybe you should bother to read it then...

before you have an opinion. I cannot fathom how anyone can be defending the OP in this situation. He initially said "yes" to paying for her abortion (thereby negating any claim he ever had to being anti-abortion on principal) and then not only did he renege..he went and blabbed about his niece's situation to other family members without her consent.

[dsc]

285. It isn't about abortion

it is about this young lady growing up. He admitted he shouldn't have said yes in the first place. But more than one poster said "you are limiting her choices by refusing to pay for an abortion" in pretty much those words. That is ludricrous. She is an adult as is the boyfriend. Just how long is that family supposed to support them?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

240. He said yes and then he said no when he figured without means

to have an abortion, he could use her as his personal incubator.

He is not anti-abortion. If he were, YES would NOT have been an option. His own WIFE had an abortion.

This isn't about pro-life and pro-choice. It is about money which he already says is not an issue for him and the fact that he and his wife want a baby.

What better way to get one than to make sure his niece has no choice in a couple more weeks but to have the baby.

How long do you think it will take him to secure a job and get $550?

[ScreamingMeemie]

242. Thank you teena. You said it better than I could have.

My Aunt proposed this with my daughter...after she was born and they found out she was a girl (they have 3 boys). It's personally motivated and quite sick.

[LisaL]

246. In all fairness, sounds like the wife regretted having an abortion.

Furthermore, you can be against abortion and be married to someone who had an abortion.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

249. So what? They said yes, then reneged. Then violated her confidence

and SHE IS THE ONE WITHOUT ETHICS?

That's seriously fucked up. No wonder this poor girl doesn't want to add more of this to the gene pool.

[LisaL]

252. Poor girl? Soon she will be called old girl.

At 26 years old, this woman better start having some responsibility for herself. That said, she is better off not having any children, considering her irresponsible behavior to this day.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

256. Then we're in agreement. Read the rest of his post. They

are complicit in her dependency then decide to play hardball with her right at her most vulnerable moment. I know dysfunctional when I see it.

Co-dependency is ABOUT CONTROL. This thread is a verite performance piece in the fine art of co-dependency.

[LisaL]

260. Oh please.

Nobody wants people like this to stay dependent until they are 60. It's just that poor parents can not let their kid to starve to death.

[StellaBlue]

311. It doesn't sound like

she is mentally or physically disabled. She won't starve.

Most adults who are not incapacitated are responsible for feeding themselves.

:crazy:

[U4ikLefty]

323. Like the people in NOLA.???

After all most of them were too poor to afford their "choice" to leave. Guess it "their fault" too, right???

[dsc]

284. He admitted he never should have said yes to her in the first place

and I agree that was in error as well. But this thread is repleate with the idea that regardless of what he said before he should pay for this abortion. Either the young woman involved in this is an adult or she isn't. If she is, then she needs to get a job and pay for her medical care just like all the rest of us have to do.

I recently made the decision to withdrawl funds from my previous employer's retirment system to pay of debts. Some of those debts were medical ones. That is what adults do.

I honestly don't care what the money is for in this instance, this young lady needs to grow up as does her boyfriend, and neither one of them will do so if people like the OP continue to infantalize them by paying their bills. Both of these people have assets which could be sold to pay for the abortion (she has a car and he has video games). Presumedly planned parenthood would help them out with a loan if it came to that.

I don't take the OP's motive to be desire to raise the baby. To the extent it is, his motives are impure, but his action is still correct.

On edit, this is little to no different from telling an addict that you are going to stop enabling them.

[The Straight Story]

339. Totally wrong - I have 5 kids already of my own

A. I don't need an incubator as you put it. Have 5 kids already and can have more.

B. I am not anti-abortion, I just don't find it the right choice for me and am not willing to pay for it.

C. I offered her initially because I wanted to help, then I lost a lot of sleep over it. I found I could not do it. Already know I was wrong to offer then withdraw, I can live with that.

D. She is going on pressure (and I know her better then anyone here on this board). As I thought more about what she initially said to me I could tell part of her, a good part, really is not sure of what she wants - but her BF is real sure. He does not want the responsibility. He will leave her if she has the baby. He wants to play video games and work part time, and he cannot do that if he has a kid. She wants to do similar things as well, but she has always wanted a baby and never thought she could have one. Well she was wrong - and if I tossed her the money she would rush to please him.

If they both want it bad enough they will work to find a way. So far they have not even tried.

[Tomee450]

257. I couldn't agree with you more.

I wonder if the OP is sorry he asked for opinions. I cannot believe the attacks, the mean spiritedness.

[enki23]

225. she's twenty-freaking-six

what the hell were you thinking?

[MojoXN]

227. In my opinion...

Your sis isn't responsible enough to take care of a child. That is the ultimate responsibility. If she chooses to have the baby, she should seriously consider putting it up for adoption. I don't want to sound too harsh, but raising a child takes a lifelong committment that your sister seems unwilling or unable to make.

MojoXN

[ScreamingMeemie]

237. In my opinion, it would be horrid for you to take the child in. Somebody

proposed this to me in my family when my daughter was born. I could not have handled it...I say support her emotionally, at least, if not financially.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

241. You break your word with her, you violate her confidence and demonize her

Real sweet

[Mairead]

250. What's your goal? Do you care whether she ever takes responsibility?

It seems to me that no matter which way you cut it, the better choice would be to fund the abortion.

If she's ever going to be responsible, having a child would be a problem that could easily prevent her succeeding, and the kid would grow up within fairly impoverished circumstances unless she has the untapped ability to earn a lot of money.

If she's not ever going to be a responsible adult, then the child would be hugely burdened by such a mother (and the alternatives are not all that good --what happens when the kid finds out that hir mum didn't care enough to keep hir?)

[shockra]

296. Yes.

Not to mention that the BF's fallback plan would probably be a coat hanger.

[Mairead]

315. Good point. I'm sure you're right...though probably hers, not the BF's

since he doesn't seem to be in the picture at all.

[FlaGranny]

261. You can do nothing but follow your own conscience. n/t

[VelmaD]

263. His conscience has nothing to do with it...

he proved that when he initially agreed to pay for the abortion. If he was really so anti-abortion on principal he never would have said yes in the first place.

[Dastard Stepchild]

262. You're never obligated to give anyone money...

So if someone asks, you can feel ok with your decision to say no. But, I think it was perhaps unfair to call father. Being a 26 year old adult, she came to you in confidence to discuss this, and sharing the conversation with father...well, as you mention above, you feel bad about this, so I'm guessing you feel that could have been handled differently.

She's in a tough spot. If she does not want the child, she should be encouraged to find an agency that will work on a sliding-scale fee, or one that takes payment plans. If you are in or near a bigger city, she may be able to find this. She'll have to understand that she will not get the money from family just because she wants it.

I can sympathize with all of you that you would like to keep the child, but in the end, she does make the final decision. Emotions seem to be running high right now. My best to your family...

[Onlooker]

267. You should have lent her the money

At some point, a person has a right to mess up their lives. I could see telling her to move or get a job, or not lending her money for clothes, but for an abortion? That's a pretty heavy mental trauma for someone like her to deal with, and you said she is basically a nice honest person.

At the same time, it would be awfully generous and kind of her if she were to have the baby, so you could adopt it. But, it's her life.

[1932]

271. Like N.O., people with money have options. People without, don't.

[cyn2]

273. I think you did well...

You stopped the "secret" part of the triangle, and you've offered to care for the child.

I think she should be able to get an abortion if she wants it, but not at the expense of other family members.

Send her to planned parenthood for advice.

[VelmaD]

274. Excuse me but...

what the hell are you talking about the "secret part of the triangle"?

275. liberals

It seems by some the words you use to describe her, smokes pot, eats sushi, liberal, new ager that you are equating these things with her being stupid and irresponsible. Being liberal means being open to ideas, not irresponsible. This girl sounds like an immature person without ability to think about taking care of herself, let alone another person. Liberals and conservatives can be responsible or irresponsible. There should be more discernment between liberal ideas and irresponsible ideas, you are really blurring the two, which is something a lot of small-minded conservatives do also.

I wanted to add, that this girl was irresponsible for getting pregnant in the first place, and though it may be callus of her to have gotten pregnant without wanting to, it is her decision to get the abortion. She will also be causing herself pain with the abortion, but that again is her decision and her life.

[LisaL]

277. Eating sushi hardly a sign of being a liberal or a conservative.

Just thought to point that out.

[bloom]

313. That's a good point...

I have a relative who had 3 kids while unmarried - all with the same irresponsible man who is now in jail.

She is a "conservative". And the more conservative she has become - the more irresponsible she has become. She used to have some sense that she should keep a good job. Now she justs "forces" her parents to subsidize her irresponsibility and does not care what sort of strain this puts on them.

She wants to live the fantasy mother in the suburbs life and have a job that does not begin to pay the bills. She is 38.

[NaturalHigh]

286. You are not obligated to pay for her abortion.

Whatever you think of abortion, you are not obligated to pay the procedure. At 26, she's old enough to find her own resources, and that includes housing, food, and transportation. Maybe her boyfriend could cut out a few hours of video gaming per week and find a full-time job.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

292. Her boyfriend has a part time job...

He could do yard work/gutter cleaning for people and come up with $500 in a pretty short period of time.

She should tell him to get off his duff.

[REP]

293. Her Crisis is Not Your Opportunity

I've seen your hollow claims that you didn't pull a mindfuck on her (agreeing to lend her the money, then reneging) in the hopes of obtaining another child, but we all know adoptions take a long, long time and fertility treatments aren't cheap. You saw someone in desperation, and decided to take advantage of it.

There are words for people like that, but I cannot use them here.

For shame. Have you no decency?

[LisaL]

305. And her crisis is not his responsibility either.

We are talking about a grown woman smooching off her family, and still expecting money from them. If it was my relative, I wouldn't give her a dime.

[REP]

335. "Smooching"?

She's not kissing them off, but she should - they have behaved shamefully, hoping to use her as a vending machine for their desires. They want a baby; she has an unwanted pregnancy, they offer to lend her the money an abortion then withdraw the offer, making it harder for her to terminate, and they keep telling her they'll take her baby. Her "family" has no shame and no decency. None at all.

The decent and honorable thing would have been to say, "We will not lend you the money." Instead, they chose to play games with her. Disgraceful. Nasty.

[Guaranteed]

294. If you're withholding the money in order to try to manipulate

her decision, I don't think it's right to do that.

You should look closely at your motives. If you can afford it, and you understand how important it is to your niece to have this procedure done- and you were planning on giving her the money to begin with- it seems like you rescinded the offer in an effort to force her to have the kid.

[DemBones DemBones]

297. Don't give her the money, don't adopt the child, and

for God's sake, don't let your father try to help her raise the child.

She's 26 years old, doesn't work, and she and her boyfriend, who also doesn't work, have irresponsibly created a child that they (or perhaps just he) don't want. So their answer is to kill the child, with you paying for the procedure. Lovely!

THEY need to pay for the abortion, if she has one. Alternatively, THEY need to grow up and get jobs so they can raise their child. Or they could give the child up, but they should still grow up, get jobs, and quit sponging off the older generation.

I suspect that her two years of not using birth control, and the fact that she's waited this long in her pregnancy without arranging for an abortion, coupled with her liking children and always wanting to have them, means that she DOES want this child and she's just scared and/or doesn't want to displease the boyfriend.

By not enabling her to have an abortion with no effort on her part or his, you force her to come to terms with what she really wants and figure out how to get it.

Good luck to you all.

[JVS]

298. "She now says we are forcing to have a 'parasite' she does not want."

Maybe she should reflect on how it feels to have a 26 year old and occasionally her boyfriend living in your house, not working much if at all, and then to top it off asking for $550 for something that the person who houses her considers to be wrong.

[BlackVelvet04]

299. Just my opinion,

but I don't think this is the time to dig in your heels to teach her responsibility....nor her boyfriend. Her dependence on the family has been allowed to go on for a good while and this situation is immediate. Nobody should be forced to have a child they don't want to have. Her lack of responsibility can be addressed after this situation is rectified.

What is the true motivation here? If it's to teach her responsibility then do it later, don't use her pregnancy as that teaching tool.

[The Straight Story]

340. Thanks - and not trying to use it as a tool actually

For many years mom, who died 12/31, pampered her and put up with her.

She would yell at mom if she bought the wrong type of rice at the grocery store and mom would go out and get the right one.

Dad still puts up with her (though she has changed and regrets how she treated mom) but dad, and I, both have out limits. Abortion is one of them.

I initially was willing to help her out. But it was hitting the mind. ONE of the reasons I called my dad was to get some advice, I was feeling that offering the money was wrong. He told me that it was not his decision, it was mine. No matter what he respected me. I talked to the wife and we decided we could just not do it and feel right about it.

It does put her into a situation to learn a lesson, but that is not the reason we chose not to help - it is a side effect of it. She may well find the money and go ahead with her plans (though I don't think that is what she wants, see my other posts on that). We will still love her the same, not our decision to make.

[msrbly]

307. I believe you did the exact right thing

If someone cannot afford an abortion because of choices they have made and a lifestyle they choose, no one, not their parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles or friends should obligated to loan or give them the money for an abortion (or for any other expense for that matter). She sounds capable of understanding that she made the choices in her life to get her to where she is now. Having the baby is not a punishment it is merely a consequence of her choices (I'm not judging whether the choices were good or bad they are just her choices). $550 is not a great sum of money, although I'm pretty sure she's eliminated the conventional methods for earning or borrowing the money at this point.

Sounds like she has loving and supportive people in her life. I hope that one day she will grow wise enough to see that.

[HEyHEY]

308. It's tricky I know... but what if she tries some cut rate back door

Abortion now?

[patrice]

310. Four Months pregnant = NO abortion. Have the baby and give it to

good parents. The rest of it is up to her "Go and sin no more"> But I, personally, don't think some people even have biological "rights" to their offspring, IMO. I've heard the "Hand-maid's Tale" and all, but it doesn't change my mind.

Families need to be put on the spot about some family members and act accordingly. Enabling behavior must be identified and evaluated. None of that can happen in Secret. You did the right thing by talking to Dad.

I'm in kind of a bad mood right now, so I think your sister should sign over ALL contact and any-and-all interaction with the child. I believe the adoptive parents should tell their child at the appropriate time, but the "mother" needs to go ammend her own life, without inflicting that on some poor innocent kid.

[Samurai_Writer]

314. My god, have I landed in freeperville?!?

Do you REALIZE what you've just said? Hey, why don't we just lock up ALL the irresponsible, SINGLE, pregnant women, FORCE them to give birth, and then give their babies to MARRIED COUPLES who are oh-so-more-deserving to be parents? Oh, and terminate the natural mother's rights, and tell her to 'go on with her life' as if nothing happened.

Oh wait. We already did that. It's called CLOSED ADOPTION and MATERNITY HOMES. And it hasn't worked out too well for the adoptees OR the birth parents. But gee, those DESERVING, MARRIED couples get their cute, white, healthy newborn baby! Only have to pay $20,000 to $100,000 for it! What a deal! Capitalism at its finest! Not to mention, we get to make the mother feel guilty and ashamed for the rest of her life! Yay!

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2991/marybb.html

[Kerrytravelers]

317. Silly me. I though liberals were pro-choice.

[Nay]

318. This is a heck of a thread. I have some experience in this, in that

I also have an older (22) totally irresponsible niece who willfully got pregnant by a now-disappeared "boyfriend" and now sponges off her mother (a nutcase all by herself) and my brother-in-law, a clueless but nice guy who is funding BOTH his ex-wife's no-work lifestyle AND his daughter's bar/drinking lifestyle while also picking up most of the tab for his grandson, the poor little kid who has ended up being born in hell.

Very close to your situation, no? My BIL begged his daughter to have an abortion, because he knew that 1) the poor child wouldn't have a chance with his daughter and ex, 2) the child would be used as a tool to pry more money from him and other relatives, and 3) he knew he would certainly fall in love with his grandchild (he has) and be unable to let him suffer no matter how he was manipulated and abused by his daughter.

The child was born and all my BIL feared has come to pass. If you don't pay for your niece's abortion, all that will come to pass for you, too. Remember that. I guarantee it.

Some minor points:
1. no, you are not obligated to pay for her abortion, even if you tentatively said you would at first.

2. No, you shouldn't have broken the promise not to tell, but this is a minor point, IMHO, and is not what should be dwelled upon in giving you advice.

3. You should not have ever mentioned that you would possibly be interested in adopting the child -- this is not a child you want to adopt, believe me. Mom will spend her life abusing you, filing lawsuits to get it back, wreaking havoc in your lives over the child, etc. If you foolishly allow her to take the child whenever she wants it, you will damage the child emotionally and, whenever she gets tired of taking care of her playtoy, you will find it on your doorstep, unloved and unwanted, with emotional problems you are now morally obligated to take care of.

4. You said she wishes she "would cut you all some slack." WTF? You all have required nothing of her all these years, why should she start behaving rationally and maturely now? Do you see the trap you have all set for yourselves? She has you literally wishing she would be nicer to you, when SHE is using you all up and throwing you away. Wake up.


Now, for some other points. I agree with the posters who say that now is not the time to teach her responsibility -- that time lies in the past 10 years when she should have been cut loose, or in the future, after this one crisis is averted. Take her to the clinic yourself immediately, get her abortion scheduled, pay for it. Do not give her the money and expect her to take herself down there -- she will spend the money on pot and "forget" to go, or she will be "too late" in getting down there for the abortion. Pretend to yourself she is 15 yrs old. Note that I still believe wholeheartedly you are not obligated to do any of this. You are doing this, essentially, in the interest of the poor unwanted child and in the interest of the rest of the family as a whole. Go now. I personally don't give a rat's ass whether you think she wants a kid or not -- believe me, she ain't ready, and neither is the extended family. When this is over, you should all go to counseling to find out why you continue to tolerate such a parasite.

As soon as the abortion has been performed and she is back on her feet, her parents must give her two months to get her own place, her own job, her own life. Do NOT allow her to stay in the parents' home and pay rent. She will never pay. She has to pay a real landlord, who doesn't give a shit whether she felt like working that month or not and wants his money anyway or she's out. She should be told that she is welcome to visit, she should be encouraged to come to Sunday dinner when invited, etc., but she is no longer to ask any of you for money, cars, etc. under any circumstances except dire emergencies not of her own making (if her house had been blown down in Katrina, for example). I don't know if it is a possibility to convince her parents to do this, though.

There is a possibility that she may grow up when thrown out of the house. She is indeed a lazy, spoiled, selfish brat, and her BF is a total hoser. You should tell her this, too. Stop worrying about whether she will be mad at you, fer Christ's sake. I hope she gets madder than hell and storms out of everyone's life -- that is her only chance of maturing enough to appreciate what had been handed to her her whole life. Try to shame her into action. Think on this: SHE should be worrying about and supporting her father as he goes through cancer treatment -- he shouldn't have to be worrying over HER because she is an immature little fuckwit. If you do really love her, the best thing you can do is to teach her that there is no free lunch, and she is expected to support herself. It's what all the rest of us do. Since she is 26, which is VERY OLD for this sort of behavior, you have the odds against you already. Most kids, by age 18 or 19, can't wait to get out on their own, because they are maturing in a normal manner. Your niece isn't. That is a major personality defect, in my eyes, and you shouldn't pretend to yourself it isn't. You should discuss it with her frankly, as one adult to another. If she blows up and gets angry, it will confirm her brattiness.

Be prepared for all sorts of histrionics, midnight telephone calls, etc. And if she gets pregnant again, well, she's on her own, and so is the poor baby. You can really only do this once.

[cynatnite]

319. Well, four months sounds like it's too late

It also sounds like both her and the boyfriend need to learn some responsibility. They should have come up with the money for the abortion, IMO.

It also sounds like everyone there is going above and beyond. This parasite as she calls it will go to a good home to people that want a child.

She's 26 years old and should be a mature adult by now as should the boyfriend.

My gut says, when she has it, it'll go to a good home, then neice and boyfriend need to go make their own way in the world without financial help from family.

They are adults and should be told they need to get out, get jobs, and earn a living like the rest of us.

Whether she gets an abortion, not get one, whoever pays for it or not pays for it...it doesn't matter. Neice and boyfriend need to grow up and be adult.

[youthere]

320. I think it's interesting that a 26 year old woman..

wants an abortion SO BAD that she solicits one family member for the fund- but never calls any agencies or checks out any other resources on her own. A little odd don't you think?

[DemBones DemBones]

328. Like she's going through the motions of

"trying to get an abortion" to please her BF.

But she doesn't really want an abortion or she could find out how to get one on her own.

[NNN0LHI]

321. Have you suggested adoption? I think that is an option worth exploring n/t

[U4ikLefty]

326. So when she leaves the baby on the doorstep of the Fire Dept

what will you do then? I sincerely hope se gets the abortion & then has nothing to do with this toxic family. I have the feeling that THEY are the reason she is so "messed up" at 26 years old.

[DemBones DemBones]

327. Another point that I believe only one poster has raised:

If you pay for this abortion, expect to have to pay for another one, perhaps two or three more.

If you adopt her child or your dad lets her and the baby mooch off him, expect there will be a second, maybe a third, even fourth child to be adopted or raised by dad.

[Name removed]

336. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

342. Locking

All things must come to an end.