Question about the school buses not used in evacuation of NOLA.

[jessicazi]

I did a quick search which yielded no reason, but I would like to know why the school buses weren't used to evacuate more people...Was this a fuck-up by Blanco and Nagin? I know hindsight is 20/20...

[Hello_Kitty]

1. Possibly there weren't any drivers available

They were probably leaving with their families prior to the storm. Also, where were the people who were too poor to leave going to go? How many shelters were set up at the time? Enough to accomodate everyone? I'm sure the many who stayed behind had to take that into consideration. It's not like they could afford hotels.

And of course, they probably didn't even think of it. Bad on them. But that still doesn't excuse people being starved, dehydrated, and forced to sit in excrement for several days after the storm. Screw the busses.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jessicazi]

4. um, do not EVER call me a drudge shill.

i don't have the time to sit and read every thread. i tried searching for a thread that had already discussed this problem.
i am posting on another website and was asked this and wanted to make sure i had enough information to provide a decent answer.

if you knew anything about me, you wouldn't have called me a drudge shill. kiss my ass.

[blonndee]

58. That's a cheap shot. Everyone does need to be informed about this,

otherwise we could end up looking like idiots when a RWer has some information we don't...or if they make something up and we can't refute it.

[longship]

3. I saw film of the buses.

They were under water. Plus, where in the hell would Nagin get people to drive those buses?

[jessicazi]

5. but before the flooding, the buses were there.

as far as not having enough drivers, that is a good point. had we known what would've happened, they probably would've scrounged up enough people to drive people outta there, but we also know the traffic leaving the area was bumper to bumper! freepers lack rational thinking.

[blondeatlast]

94. FEMA is empowered to commandeer ALL methods of transport in

a national emergency if ordered by the President--who had already declared a national emergency BEFORE landfall.

GettysbergII posted a remarkable thread on it Friday night which he sourced from Wikipedia.

The highways, the airlines, commercial buses--ALL of it.

This is squarely at the Shrubbery's feet.

I understand why you'd be upset by the above allegation, but the Drudge rumors are flying thick and fast here this morning and it's up to those who spread the rumors to lift them above rumor status, IMHO.

[Mairead]

15. Where would he have got drivers? Off the street if nowhere else

Driving a bus is no worse than driving any other truck. People do that all the time. Even I've done it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

35. So why is there a different driver's license required

for school bus drivers?

[Mairead]

57. Bureaucracy.

Requiring a special driving licence is all about reducing their liability and increasing their revenue, not about the difficulty of the job and certainly not about saving lives. Yes, it's good that people in everyday life can be sure that the person driving the city bus or school bus has gained some minimal credential -- but in a life-or-death situation, only ability matters.

[ohio_liberal]

71. As long as I didn't have to back it up

I know I could drive one safely. Not so safely if it involved, you know, things like parking it.

[Mairead]

80. That was more or less my feeling, too. :-)

I was glad that I didn't have to do much backing up or parallel-park the damned thing--just being so high off the ground was plenty scary enough for me, especially after I realised that it made my sense of speed go haywire.

[preciousdove]

6. Not feasible given the circumstances.

From a previous thread (hundreds of threads debunking this very arguement). A flawed, underfunded disaster plan was in place. The mayor and the governor followed proceedures the best that they could. On the other hand Bush, Condi and Cheney stayed on vacation and then didn't authorize any rescue for 4 days confirmed by a major paper. Anyone and everyone who has ever been in a disaster situation says it was gross callous incompetence, or criminal negligence. Time will tell.

"Gridlocked roads. Even many cars didn't make it out.
Driving the buses wasn't the issue. Getting anywhere with them certainly would've been. The police would've sent them back into the city to take shelter from the approaching Katrina just as they did with many carloads of people who had been stuck on the roads out of NO for many hours. "

[jessicazi]

7. thank you.

that is the answer i needed. fyi: a search using the terms, "school buses," or "school buses new orleans," or "school buses nola," returned me over 10 pages of threads. i searched three pages before i found nothing even remotely close to what i was looking for.

[BOHICA06]

143. The Mayor and Governor don't get a pass on this one

A flawed, underfunded disaster plan was in place. The mayor and the governor followed procedures the best that they could.

If that's their best, * and friends aren't the only once in need of replacing.

The people were failed by three levels of incompetence .... and years of thinking .."Hope is an acceptable course of action!"

[left is right]

8. As mayor, Nagin

did not have the authority to put his people on the buses and drive them to any other city or state. He couldn't take it upon himself to burden any other governing body with the expenses or the commitment of resources that would require. Had he tried that, the refugees might have been met at the border by armed state troopers.
There is one more thing to consider, youth shelters in hurricane zones in Florida are required to prove that each child has 3 days worth of clothing/food/tolitries to evacuate them to shelters in safe zone. I don't think New Orleans had that kind of resources

[Shipwack]

9. More explanation...

When the order was given to evacuate, state and local government employees are often the first to be allowed to go home early. This means the bus drivers were gone, and either took the keys with them, or they were locked up in the office and the dispatcher was gone (depending on whatever the school district policy is).

And as others have stated, they would not have had anywhere local to bring them to, and would not have been able to make much a dent in the hundreds of thousands of people stranded.

Bottom line, it might have been a flaw in the local/state planning, but no plan is perfect. The state realized early on that they were going to need additional help, asked for it from the feds -before- the storm hit, and the federal government ignored them.

To me, it is far more damning that Bush/FEMA hasn't authorized the USS Bataan to use its massive resources when it has been there since the beginning...

[jessicazi]

10. thank you. this is great and exactly what i am needing.

nt

[DoYouEverWonder]

11. Because in March 2004

the Dept of Homeland Security and FEMA told state and local leaders and the rest of us that they had a plan. It is called the National Response Plan.

The Plan ensures the seamless integration of the federal government when an incident exceeds local or state capabilities.


The plan was never implemented and Nagan and everyone else were left without the lifeline that they all thought was going to come automatically. Of course, it never came not even 5 days after the storm passed.

Nagan was on the air numerous times on Sunday. Begging and pleading for help. Then they would tell him FEMA was coming or sending something and two hours later he'd be back on crying because nothing came. They he would beg again, and the same thing happened again.

[Emit]

12. I don't know about buses

but this article sheds some light on the matter:

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWL082805catastrophe.f4dd3f.html

"This is a once in a lifetime event," the mayor said. "The city of New Orleans has never seen a hurricane of this magnitude hit it directly," the mayor said.


He told those who had to move to the Superdome to come with enough food for several days and with blankets. He said it will be a very uncomfortable place and encouraged everybody who could to get out.


Nagin said police and firefighters would spread out throughout the city sounding sirens and using bullhorns to tell residents to get out. He also said police would have the authority to comandeer any vehicle or building that could be used for evacuation or shelter.


The Superdome was already taking in people with special problems. It opened about 8 a.m. and people on walkers, some with oxygen tanks, began checking in.

It appears they did try to do what their emergency plan called for, they sought temporary shelter:

Here's an excerpted portion of the LA plan:
http://www.cityofno.com/SystemModules/PrintPage.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26

The City of New Orleans will utilize all available resources to quickly and safely evacuate threatened areas. Those evacuated will be directed to temporary sheltering and feeding facilities as needed. When specific routes of progress are required, evacuees will be directed to those routes. Special arrangements will be made to evacuate persons unable to transport themselves or who require specific life saving assistance. Additional personnel will be recruited to assist in evacuation procedures as needed.

Slow developing weather conditions (primarily hurricane) will create increased readiness culminating in an evacuation order 24 hours (12 daylight hours) prior to predicted landfall. Disabled vehicles and debris will be removed from highways so as not to impede evacuation. In local evacuations involving more than fifty (50) families (i.e. 50 single dwelling units), staging areas may be established at the closest available public area outside the threatened area. Upon arrival at the staging area, evacuees will be directed to the appropriate shelter facility. Evacuees will be encouraged to stay with friends or relatives in non-threatened areas whenever possible. Security measures will be employed to protect the evacuated area(s) in accordance with established procedures and situations.

The use of travel-trailers, campers, motorcycles, bicycles, etc., during the evacuation will be allowed so long as the situation permits it. Public information broadcasts will include any prohibitions on their use. Transportation will be provided to those persons requiring public transportation from the area. (See Special Needs Transportation, ESF-1). An orderly return to the evacuated areas will be provided after the Mayor determines the threat to be terminated. Transportation back to the evacuated area after threat termination will be provided as available.

When a Cat 5 hurricane is about to wipe through and destroy everything in its path, a bus driving people around the city, when there were already traffic jams of people evacuating--the ones who did have cars, that is--that isn't going to take anyone out of danger, unless it was to get people to the Superdome and other designated shelters.

[applegrove]

13. He said when he did that radio interview that he was offered buses

(School ones) from far away but said heck no send us traveling coaches.

That was during day 1 or 2. His thinking was obviously why put families on buses for long distance travel unless they were equipped.

[Emit]

14. Also, if you haven't read this article here, you should

posted here:
MUST READ from Hurricane Guru Jeff Masters
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x153465

blitzen (597 posts) Mon Sep-05-05 03:52 AM
Original message

So there was little effort given to formulate a plan to evacuate the 100,000 poor residents of New Orleans with no transportation of their own for a Category 4 or 5 hurricane. To do so would have cost tens of millions of dollars, money that neither the city, nor the state, nor the federal government was willing to spend. Why spend money that would be wasted on a bunch of poor people? The money was better spent on projects to please the politicians' wealthy campaign contributors. So the plan was to let them die. And they died, as we experts all knew they would. Huge numbers of them. And they keep dying, still. We don't know how many. Since the plan was to let them die, the city of New Orleans made sure they had a good supply of body bags on hand. Only 10,000 body bags, but since Katrina didn't hit New Orleans head-on, 10,000 will probably be enough.

Admittedly, it is very difficult to safely evacuate 100,000 people with a Category 4 or 5 hurricane bearing down on you. There are only a few routes out of the city, and a full 72 hours of warning are needed to get everyone out. That's asking a lot, as hurricanes are very difficult to predict that far in advance. The National Hurricane Center did pretty well, giving New Orleans a full 60 hours to evacuate. The Hurricane Center forecasted on Friday afternoon that Katrina would hit New Orleans as a major hurricane on Monday, which is what happened. New Orleans had time to implement its plan to bus the city's poor out. However, this plan had two very serious problems--it wasn't enacted in time, and it could only get out 20% of the people in a best case scenario.

The mandatory evacuation order was not given until Sunday, just 20 hours before the hurricane. I have not been able to ascertain from press accounts when the busses actually started picking up people. The mayor says 50,000 made it to the Superdome and other "shelters of last resort", leaving another 50,000 to face the flood waters in their homes. Although 80% of the city was evacuated, it is unclear whether any of the city's poor made it out by bus. And it is very fortunate that Katrina did not hit the city head-on, or else most of those in the Superdome and other "shelters of last resort" would have perished. The death toll from Katrina would have easily surpassed 50,000.

Even if the evacuation plan had been launched 72 hours in advance, it almost certainly would have failed. A local New Orleans news station, nola.com, reported in 2002 on the evacuation plan thusly:

~snip~

So, if one does the math, 500 busses times 40 people per bus yields 20,000 people that could have been evacuated in a best-case scenario. Only 20,000 out of 100,000. That isn't a half-hearted effort, it's a one-fifth hearted, criminal effort. We're talking about the lives of 80,000 people or more sacrificed, from a disaster that was certain to happen. By not having a plan to get New Orleans' poor out, our government caused the unbelievable suffering and the needless deaths of thousands of Americans. This was not a natural disaster caused by an act of God, it was an unnatural disaster. In his excellent 2001 book, Acts of God: The Unnatural History of Natural Disaster in America, Ted Steinberg writes: "Calling such events acts of God has long been a way to evade moral responsibility for death and destruction." He shows in the book how countless politicians over the past one hundred years have done their best to evade this moral responsibility when preventable disasters struck. Our current leaders are no different.

[displacedtexan]

16. Ahem. Here's a pic of those NO school buses...

[jessicazi]

18. you do know that the freeps are using that same pic

to show how the buses weren't used and thus wasted, in their opinion? perhaps my question wasn't clear in that i was asking why the buses weren't used prior to H. Katrina making landfall. i, of course, wasn't asking to prove a point, but because i had some freeps asking me, and before answering, i wanted to make sure i could do so intelligently.

we must be armed with the points in this thread and tell people that using the buses was simply not a viable option.

[Mairead]

22. They weren't used because the people in charge didn't do their jobs

It's that simple. The mayor didn't do his job. He dithered and dilly-dallied til it was too late, and then issued an evacuation order without supporting it with cops. He's a politician, not a leader or even a manager.

No wonder the man went incandescent with fear and rage later on--he relied on feckless, incompetent people to do the job that was his to do, and people suffered and died because of it.

[chalky]

28. And again, see link.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4637651&mesg_id=4637651

Even if the evacuation plan had been launched 72 hours in advance, it almost certainly would have failed. A local New Orleans news station, nola.com, reported in 2002 on the evacuation plan thusly:

In an evacuation, buses would be dispatched along their regular routes throughout the city to pick up people and go to the Superdome, which would be used as a staging area. From there, people would be taken out of the city to shelters to the north.

Some experts familiar with the plans say they won't work.

"That's never going to happen because there's not enough buses in the city," said Charley Ireland, who retired as deputy director of the New Orleans Office of Emergency Preparedness in 2000. "Between the RTA and the school buses, you've got maybe 500 buses, and they hold maybe 40 people
each. It ain't going to happen."

The plan has other potential pitfalls.

No signs are in place to notify the public that the regular bus stops are also the stops for emergency evacuation. In Miami Beach, Fla., every other bus stop sports a huge sign identifying it as a hurricane evacuation stop.

It's also unclear whether the city's entire staff of bus drivers will remain. A union spokesman said that while drivers are aware of the plan, the union contract lacks a provision requiring them to stay.

[Mairead]

32. I think the point is that even a little is better than nothing.

Put cops in the streets with their loudspeakers going: 'Busses are coming to evacuate everyone. They will run all night. Go to the regular bus stops. Bring one suitcase. There will be special busses for people with pets. Phone [phone] if you are handicapped.'

[Spazito]

36. They did, the mayor had buses out there before the hurricane

struck, that is why so many thousands were in the Dome before. There were designated pick up places announced. I watched the local coverage via streaming and the buses were out there for people to access.

The bigger point is: why was the relief not there as promised right after the hurricane, imo.

[chalky]

37. At BEST there would have been a Sophie's Choice situation.

At worst, riots.

So, if one does the math, 500 busses times 40 people per bus yields 20,000 people that could have been evacuated in a best-case scenario. Only 20,000 out of 100,000. That isn't a half-hearted effort, it's a one-fifth hearted, criminal effort.

[Mairead]

42. That calculus presumes that each bus would make only one trip

But there's no reason to make that assumption. Run them around the clock, get people north and west of the city, come back for more. Five trips, maybe 6 and the job is done. Do the whole thing in 24 hours.

[ClassWarrior]

50. TO WHERE?

You conveniently avoid that question in every single post.

NGU.

[Mairead]

62. Any place that isn't going to have a lot of hurricane, what do you think?

There are many places that qualify. Practically everywhere, in fact. The main requirement is not 'gigantic building' it's 'no hurricane'. It's warm out. People could simply camp out for a day or two, if bad came to worse. A state or national park. A campground. A NG training camp. Dig latrines, put up tents. Fun for the kids.

[chalky]

96. 24 hours. 500 buses. 100,000 people. Do the math.

n/t

[Mairead]

100. This is politicised assessment at its "finest". They had 72 hours

from the time it was clear that Katrina was heading for LA/MS. And they had more than 36 hours after the mayor and gov declared the emergency. See the CBC timeline.

[chalky]

101. 72 hrs notice of a cat 3 or less, 24 hrs. notice of a CATEGORY 4-5.

And again---NEW ORLEANS SURVIVED THE HURRICANE. What it did NOT survive was the FAILING OF THE DAMNED FLOODWALLS.

[Mairead]

103. So what are you saying, a cat 2 isn't big enough???

[chalky]

105. Oh, good CHRIST! Evacuation was sufficient for category 3!

Hell, the CITY EVEN SURVIVED THE CATEGORY 4 THAT HIT IT!!
It was the FAILURE OF THE DAMNED FLOODWALLS!

[proud2BlibKansan]

40. And the tens of thousands of people the buses couldn't hold

would be out in the open when the hurricane hit. Still waiting at the bus stops for those buses that didn't exist to take them to the shelters that didn't exist. THAT would have been a disaster. Just think about it for a minute. I'm sure the mayor thought it all out. And he was assured by FEMA that they would be there to help. And they weren't.

How anyone can blame him is beyond my comprehension. Do just a little research and you will find that the mayor and the governor did everything in their power to save these people. The federal govt (namely FEMA and Homeland Security) dropped the ball. THAT is where the blame lays, not with the mayor or the governor.

[Mairead]

44. No, they DIDN'T do 'everything in their power' because it was in their

power to use school and city busses, to commandeer commercial busses, to order up NG vehicles (which include busses), to set up a tent city on public land out of town. MANY MANY things were within their power, and they didn't do them.

[chalky]

46. Bush declared a State of Emergency on 8/27. 8/29, the floodwalls failed.

Who's court was the ball in?

[Mairead]

49. Until the work is done, it's still in the mayor's court.

If you're the mayor, you keep running things til the federales show up. And if when they do show up they're incompetent (as these clowns seem to have been), you have some cops put them under arrest and evacuate them 'to a secure location' while you go on supervising the real work.

[chalky]

53. By THAT time the flood walls had failed, the buses were underwater,

and Nagin was up shit's creek when it came to using them to evacuate people.

Nagin had gotten his city through the hurricane. It was the failure of the floodwalls that did the city in.

[Mairead]

63. When did they know NO was likely in the path? It was several days before

That's when the evac should have started, beginning with people who would have been the easiest to transport. The point being, NO isn't a place where it can all be left to the last second as it can elsewhere.

[chalky]

92. Katrina upgraded to a category 4-5? They had 24 hours. NOT several days.

And make no mistake--N.O. SURVIVED THAT HURRICANE.

The storm weakened slightly and wobbled toward the east just before reaching land, sparing New Orleans the cataclysmic devastation many had feared.
http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/news/nation/12502057.htm

What NO did NOT survive was the breach of the floodwalls.

[Mairead]

98. Unless you think a Cat 2 isn't bad enough to act on, they had 3 days

Aug. 26, 2005
Katrina weakens over land into a tropical storm, before moving out over the Gulf of Mexico. It grows to a Category 2 hurricane with 160 km/h winds, veering north and west toward Mississippi and Louisiana. 10,000 National Guard troops are dispatched across the Gulf Coast.

Aug. 27, 2005
Eleven people die in Florida. Katrina becomes a Category 3 storm, with 185 km/h winds, and a hurricane warning is issued for Louisiana's southeastern coast, including New Orleans and Lake Pontchartrain, and for the northern Gulf coast. New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin declares a state of emergency and urges residents in low-lying areas to evacuate. Mississippi Governor Haley Barbour declares a state of emergency. A mandatory evacuation is ordered for Hancock County, 65 kilometres east of New Orleans on the Mississippi Gulf Coast. Coastal Gulf residents jam freeways and gas stations as they rush to escape.

Aug. 28, 2005
Katrina grows into a Category 5 storm with 260 km/h winds, and heads for the northern Gulf coast. Mayor Nagin orders a mandatory evacuation for New Orleans, but 10 shelters are also set up, including the Superdome, for those unable to leave. Evacuation orders are posted all along the Mississippi coast. Alabama Governor Bob Riley declares a state of emergency.

Aug. 29, 2005
Katrina, now a Category 4 hurricane with 230 km/h winds, makes landfall near Buras, La., at 6:10 a.m. CT (7:10 a.m. ET). U.S. President Bush makes emergency disaster declarations for Louisiana and Mississippi, freeing up federal funds. Katrina rips two holes in the Superdome's roof, with some 10,000 people inside. At least eight Gulf Coast refineries shut down or reduce operations. Airports close in New Orleans, Baton Rouge, La., Biloxi, Miss., Mobile, Ala., and Pensacola, Fla. Hundreds of flights are canceled or diverted.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/katrina/katrina_timeline.html

[chalky]

108. Jesus H. Christ on a POGO STICK! So NOW you're saying NOTHING was done???

How the hell did that crowd end up in the SuperDome?

[Spazito]

115. Don't you see! Don't you get it? The Mayor is dirt, he left his

people to die according to those who are desperate to point the finger AWAY from bush. It doesn't matter what facts are presented, the Mayor is the spawn of evil! Did you not take your dose of Kool-Aid yet, it seems some have topped off for sure.

[proud2BlibKansan]

51. A tent city in the path of a hurricane???

There was significant damage over 100 miles inland.

And what power would the mayor of NO have to order another city or county to allow a tent city to be set up in their community? He wouldn't have this authority and you know it. That would be an order only allowed by the federal govt (FEMA).

I also wonder just how quickly the NIMBY folks would have surfaced to get that tent city out of their community. Would you want this tent city in YOUR local park?

The mayor of NO also has no control of the NG. Again, that would be a federal responsibility.

The mayor did all he could with the limited resources he had. To blame him and to blame the governor for mistakes that are clearly the fault of FEMA is only repeating a RW talking point. Why you would do that on DU is beyond my comprehension.

[Mairead]

67. "What power would the mayor of NO have"

That's more or less where the governor comes in. Not to mention good sense, empathy, and political awareness on the part of the requestees.

The governor has complete authority over state functions, just as the mayor has over city functions. That's the role for which they were elected and are being paid. The gov can order the NG into action...and if they're all away in Iraq, order the staties to do the job instead.

[Spazito]

76. Wow, how ironic, those are the EXACT points the right wing have

been spewing in their pathetic attempts to save their guy's sorry ass.

[Mairead]

82. See my thread on politicising assessments

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2060815

[Spazito]

90. I read your thread and re-checked all your responses on both

and I do not see ONE post allocating any responsibility to the Federal Government agencies, Homeland Security which has the responsibility for FEMA. Why not? Are they with out responsibility in this? I only see how your posts have gone directly to the Mayor and when a good rebuttal is provided you turn your attentions to the Governor and no higher. Again, interesting.

[Mairead]

102. You, too, are politicising it whether you know it or not

Primary responsibility belongs with the person hired to run the city. The governor has an obligation to make the state help if the resources needed are more than the city can provide. And the nation has a similar responsibility if the state is overwhelmed.

But that doesn't shift the responsibility. The mayor can't simply throw up his hands and declare it Someone Else's Problem!

[Spazito]

107. And you know he did this exactly how? Going back to the main

issue, is it because of the buses? That, alone, allows you to state catagorically that the Mayor threw up his hands and said it was 'Someone Else's Problem'?. This whole thing was political and is political. To try and say it is not, is disingenuous to say the least.

[chalky]

112. To try to say it's not is hypocrital at best, considering the fact that

our dear opponent has YET to state FEMA's stake in this, much less Shrub's.

[Spazito]

120. Yep, I have decided to stop trying to reason with someone

who is hellbent on demonizing the Mayor contrary to all evidence provided.

[nyhuskyfan]

55. A tent city?

You want people to sit in tents as a Category 5 Hurricane comes through the area?

The mayor of New Orleans is in charge of New Orleans. If there were places to bring people with buses, it would have had to have been shelters well out of his jurisdiction -- in other states even. So the follow-through for such a plan would henceforth have to come from a larger organization, such as oh, say FEMA. You know, they supposedly planned for this very scenario.

A mayor can't control shelters, public land, etc. beyond his borders. And given that the hurricane was going to effect a minimum of three states -- and that shelters would likely be needed in Texas, Arkansas, Tennessee, etc. to handle the exodus, don't you think that the planning for such an operation needs to come from somebody other than the mayor.

The mayor set up the Superdome and other emergency shelters in his city. There was probably more he could have done and he shouldn't escape all blame, but the federal government was appallingly poor at dealing with this -- because a failed horse show guy is running FEMA, and their funding for disaster mitigation were unceremoniously chopped to bits by the Vacationator.

[ClassWarrior]

59. Don't feed the trolls. They'll just keep coming back.

NGU.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[chalky]

95. And was THAT helpful?

n/t

[Mairead]

111. I give as I get. (nt)

[Mairead]

68. The point, surely, is to set it up somewhere NOT in the area

One doesn't knowingly evacuate people to some other place that's also going to be wrecked by the hurricane! How dim would someone have to be to do a thing like that?

[nyhuskyfan]

81. Nobody knows exactly where the Hurricane is going to go...

To ensure their safety, you'd have to put a tent city in somewhere like Kansas. Hurricanes weaken as they hit land, but a Category 5 is still going to be packing a wallop all the way through Louisiana. Maybe the winds are 90-100 mph by the time it hits northern Louisiana, but that's still much more than some tents can handle.

So do you think the mayor of New Orleans has the authority to bus thousands of people into Kansas? Don't you think that Kansas would need to be in the loop? Don't you think that the Federal government should thus bear responsibility for all these arrangements?

If FEMA tried to move all these people and the mayor forgot he had some buses, there would be a point. But the mayor and a bus fleet can't do much of anything other than move people around his own city -- there wasn't anywhere safe to bring them.

[Mairead]

87. Sorry, but that sounds like Kindasleezy's exculpation about 911

"If we had known exactly what was going to happen, we would have done something." That pathetic excuse was laughed to scorn then, and it doesn't seem any more palatable in this circumstance.

The path Katrina took was plotted rather well. In fact, it made landfall a bit to the *east* of NO, so moving people to the northwest would actually have worked out better than expected, not worse.

All anyone can do is go with the odds. Doing nothing, when lives are at stake, is the poorest choice possible.

[nyhuskyfan]

89. Sorry, but...

If you think that a great idea for a Hurricane plan is to bus people 100 miles inland and put them in bleepin' tents, something is wrong with you.

A hurricane that ends up 100 miles inland is weakened, but it still is plenty strong enough to blow away tents. I went through a Hurricane growing up in New England which knocked down trees all over our yard (fortunately missing our house) -- we were probably 100-150 miles from shore.

I stand by my statement that when you are planning two days in advance to evacuate people, you do not know exactly where a Hurricane is going to go, especially when it comes to finding a safe place to put tents. If you are going to put people in tents, you would need to err WAY on the side of caution and put them in Kansas or Iowa.

[Mairead]

109. There's something wrong, alright, but it's not with me. (nt)

[nyhuskyfan]

129. Okeedokee...

Next time there's a thunderstorm with winds over 50 mph, go pitch a tent in a park and try to keep everything in tact. Good luck with that. Now try to tell people that they must evacuate from their homes to go spend time in a tent -- see how many get on the busses.

I don't want to go down the road of saying the mayor is completely without blame here, because I'm sure he isn't. I'm sure there were some people stranded in their homes in New Orleans who would have gone to the Superdome if they had help or transportation or both. Announcing the mandatory evacuation maybe should have come on Friday instead of Saturday,

But when you talk about evacuating a major US city to places all over the region (in and out of state), coordinating the logistics should be a federal task. They have far more resources, and can coordinate well beyond city limits -- including shelters, military housing, hospital ships, etc. That's why FEMA was created, and that's why they have plans for these sort of things. Sheltering people in the Superdome probably saved thousands of lives, but it was obvious that the necessary support from FEMA was not there in a timely fashion.

[Star]

61. In a hurricane??

You want to put up a tent city in a hurricane?? Where would this tent city be?

Tropical storm force winds extended 250 miles from Katrina's center. That's about a 10 hour round trip in a school bus. At the end of that 10 hours, you have an exhausted driver and 40 people evacuated.

Who would put up this tent city, and where would you get the tents? Wouldn't it take some time to get the tents and find a place to put them up?

Think of all the logistics involved before you spout off about they "should have done". FEMA failed to provide the relief that they were REQUIRED to provide immediately after the hurricane.

That's the tragedy.

[Mairead]

69. No, NOT in a hurricane! Somewhere else!

There were plenty places where the hurricane wasn't going to be. Most of Louisiana, in fact.

Jeez, questions like that make me wonder.

[nyhuskyfan]

85. Say what?

On Sunday, pretty much all of Louisiana was about to be smooshed by a Category 5 hurricane -- New Orleans was dead center in its path. The storm veered a little east at the last minute, but well after any such plans could have been in place.

What do you think -- that a storm makes land in New Orleans, but Baton Rouge is getting sun and people can fly kites? The Hurricane was the size of the entire Gulf of Mexico.

Based on the way the storm looked on Sunday the 28th, ensuring safety for people in tents would have involved moving them well out of Louisiana.

[Mairead]

93. It's rather well understood that hurricanes diminish sharply on making

landfall, so there was no reason to think that much more than the coast would be in trouble. In fact, all the speculation was about how MUCH trouble the coast would be in because of the initial blast, not about how many problems there'd be far inland.

Shreveport, for example, doesn't seem to have suffered even slightly:
http://www.shreveporttimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050904/NEWS05/509030312/1064

[chalky]

97. Child, PLEASE.

I'm in Austin, 200 miles from the coast. Back in '84, a hurricane hit Corpus, bounced off the coast and LANDED ON US. We had tornados, storms...I'd have loved to see a tent hold up to that.

[Mairead]

118. Why do you suppose they count on hurricanes diminishing sharply

when they make landfall, if that's not what routinely happens?

How many times has a hurricane--not a tornado, a hurricane--crossed all the way from the Gulf to hit Austin? How many times has a hurricane got past Houston? How many times has a hurricane got as FAR as Houston. Corpus Christi and Brownsville are right on the coast, they get the full flavor. But how many times has an actual hurricane done anything but produce minor damage inland? I can recall the last one that came up the coast and socked Massachusetts. It was around 1985, iirc. I was 10 miles inland from Mass Bay, and all I got was a lot of wind and buckets of warm rain.

[chalky]

122. Sweetie, everytime a damned hurricane hits TX, everyone within 200 miles

braces for the worst. You act as if the hurricane shits all over this tiny strip of land and then fades into a gentle summer rain 20 miles inland. LIKE HELL.

[Mairead]

127. Yes, everyone gets hysterical in Mass, too--I even taped my damned

windows that first time. And felt a fool afterwards.

[nyhuskyfan]

131. Whoa...

On the one hand, you are looking at the current situation and saying that a mayor should have evacuated an entire metropolitan city and put them in tents.

On the other hand, you felt like a fool for taping your windows shut and finding out later that they weren't needed.

Seems like you go through life blinded by hindsight.

[Name removed]

140. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[chalky]

132. And I'm sure there was some clown that ended up enjoying the brunt of

the storm that said, "What, me worry? They've never headed this way before, so why should I prepare now?"

The day you can predict which way all that energy will go and what force will remain is the day I want to see your ass on the Weather Channel giving us all the 411.

[Maru Kitteh]

144. I think you should embrace that feeling more often

like now for instance, because it's happening again.

Katrina was not downgraded to even a depression (sustained 39mph winds) until it had reached 538 miles away from NOLA, so let's review your position.

You, like the freepers, believe that the mayor could have taken 500 buses and sent them 600 miles beyond his jurisdiction to tent cities he has no authority to order in the city parks of other states where even the LA governor had no authority.

Embrace the feeling!

[nyhuskyfan]

99. The storm veered a little East...

Shreveport is on the western edge of Louisiana and probably didn't get hit at all -- or very, very, very little.

If the storm veered a little West at the last minute, Shreveport might have gotten hit with a decent tropical storm, even though it was pretty far inland.

I wouldn't want to be in a tent in your run-of-the-mill thunderstorm, much less a storm packing winds of around 70-80 mph (or whatever they had "weakened" to). If there were shelters in Shreveport that could handle a lot of people, that's fine -- but it's still a very long trip. If I'm in New Orleans, and my choices are between the Superdome and a tent in Shreveport, I'll take the Superdome.

[Mr_Spock]

141. Wow, you are incredibly naive

I am in shock - you've taken over this thread and have no idea what you are talking about - shame!!

[chalky]

45. Bush declared a State of Emergency on 8/27. 8/29, the floodwalls failed.

What does it mean when the President declares a State of Emergency? Doesn't the Federal Governments role kick in at that time?

[proud2BlibKansan]

54. Thank you

FEMA failed. Miserably.

The tragic loss of life is not the mayor's fault or the governor's fault.

[crispini]

33. your link seems to indict the mayor and gov just as much

as any federal officials.

So there was little effort given to formulate a plan to evacuate the 100,000 poor residents of New Orleans with no transportation of their own for a Category 4 or 5 hurricane. To do so would have cost tens of millions of dollars, money that neither the city, nor the state, nor the federal government was willing to spend. Why spend money that would be wasted on a bunch of poor people? The money was better spent on projects to please the politicians' wealthy campaign contributors. So the plan was to let them die. And they died, as we experts all knew they would. Huge numbers of them. And they keep dying, still. We don't know how many. Since the plan was to let them die, the city of New Orleans made sure they had a good supply of body bags on hand. Only 10,000 body bags, but since Katrina didn't hit New Orleans head-on, 10,000 will probably be enough.

blame them all, that's what i say!

[chalky]

39. When it comes to money spent, plenty of blame to go around. Timeline on

action, though is another thing. At least the article had factual data and cogent arguments.

On 8/27, shrub declared a state of emergency. The floodwalls failed late on 8/29. Who was in charge, then?

[True_Blue]

83. 250 school buses loaded with evacuees would not even put a dent

in the number of people left behind in New Orleans. They might get 5 schools worth of kids to school and back, but would not be sufficient to evacuate a city the size of New Orleans. I'm sure the mayor thought those remaining would be able to hold up in the Superdome until help arrived, and that plan would have worked had it not taken almost a week for the Federal government to send any help.

[Onlooker]

17. Where were they supposed to bus the people to?

I'm sure the legal and logistical issues at moving thousands of people with nowhere to go were more than the state could handle. The governor executed a state of emergency a couple days before the storm, so FEMA should have been advising them on how to conduct such a move. But, lastly, let's remember that Louisiana is basically a reactionary southern state, so the idea of helping the poor and black probably wasn't intuitive.

[Fatima]

31. They are moving them now, aren't they?

And they are using school buses- from other places- to do it!

[Spazito]

43. Yes, now that shelters have been set up via FEMA and the FEDERAL

Government. They were not there BEFORE the hurricane struck, why not? Why, after promising they were ready, prepared had FEMA and the Federal Government not set up those shelter before the storm hit?

Where were the people on the buses to go, assuming the buses had been used? There were not enough shelters set up for those who had already evacuated.

[proud2BlibKansan]

56. Sure they are moving them now

after the horrendous images that have been on our TV screens for the past week.

After we have seen dead bodies in the street in NO.

After we watched babies dying in front of the convention center.

After FEMA has been shamed into doing its job - the job it should have done last weekend, before the storm hit.

If it wasn't for our media who was there in NO (unlike FEMA) and saw what was happening and told the world about it, there would most likely still be people dying in front of us on the streets of NO.

[nyhuskyfan]

91. Yes, FEMA is at last...

The mayor and his fleet of school bus drivers aren't.

[Spazito]

104. That's because it is FEMA's responsibility, had the responsibility

ever since Louisiana was declared a disaster area, that was on the 28th of August. FEMA didn't show up, it is as simple as that.

[SillyGoose]

19. They did the only thing they could by getting people into the SD & other

shelters throughout the City. The delay in getting the critical supplies in to those shelters after the storm is the question we need to be asking. The issue of the school buses wouldn't be on the table if the people in the Superdome and other shelters had adequate food, water and medical attention.

[Mairead]

20. I'm really sickened by all the exclupation here.

These were people's LIVES at risk, their ONE-AND-ONLY lives. The idea that people in authority could do nothing but wring their hands because they had to follow rules designed by other people for other situations --that's just crazy.

Had the mayor had his act together, he'd have had the NO cops with lights and sirens escorting the convoys of escaping vehicles and preventing anyone but shuttles from entering the city. That would have taken care of the jammed roads. Vehicles broken down? Winch them off to the side of the road and put the occupants in other cars. People behaving badly? Put the fear of retribution into them. Head'm up, move'm out. Get them the hell out of town!

The idea that in a life-or-death situation anyone's hands are tied by laws or regulations is little-kid thinking. Honestly, it is. It's unworthy of people claiming to be adults.

[Star]

64. The mayor did what needed to be done

He evacuated people to a safe place to ride out the storm.

After that, it was FEMA's job to provide food, water, medicines, and other supplies to those centers, via the red cross and others.

FEMA didn't do it. Nagin had neither the money, supplies, personnel, or ability to provide those things. It takes an organization that's NATIONAL in scope to get those things done.

Why aren't you looking at this part? Why do you only concentrate on what the mayor did, without realizing that those people survived the hurricane. It was the incompetence of FEMA that led to the rest of this tragedy.

[Mairead]

72. The mayor was hired by the people of New Orleans to run the city

It is his responsibility to deal with everything that affects the city, including hurricanes and falls of jambalaya. He can request help, but it's still and forever HIS responsibility, not someone else's. It's what he's being paid for.

[Star]

106. What city do you live in?

How about going to your city manager and asking about their emergency preparedness plans. Look to see if your tax dollars are being spent on acquiring and storing all of the resources necessary to evacuate all of the residents of your city in case of the worst-case scenario that could happen to your city, and all of the resources necessary to provide emergency supplies to those residents who can't or won't be evacuated.

Go ahead, ask them.

[chalky]

116. And ask them if it can be done in 48 hours, much less 24.

n/t

[sandnsea]

78. Nowhere for 30,000 evacuees to go

I don't think it has anything to do with anything except that. Now FEMA has to do something for these people. Before there was an actual disaster, they didn't. Hurricanes are still hurricanes inland, 200 buses riding out hurricane weather anywhere isn't exactly brilliant planning either.

[Cooley Hurd]

21. Unless the buses had wings...

...they would've been stuck in the gridlocked highways like many other vehicles.:(

[Mairead]

23. That's what cops are for. They get to use all kinds of flashy lights

loud noises, and ignore traffic laws in order to make things work. Had the mayor had cops on the road to make sure people were orderly, there wouldn't have been a gridlock.

We see it all the time in Mass. People commute into Boston every morning by the tens of thousands, and there are cops all over the place to make sure it's all orderly and that anyone who tries to 'beat the traffic' gets taken off the road instead. Since getting into town is a big bottleneck, progress slows to a crawl near town--but it's orderly and doesn't gridlock. If a vehicle breaks down, within a few seconds here comes one of the staties whoop whoop with his winch and off the road it goes, to be picked up later.

[Cooley Hurd]

24. I've seen emergency vehicles stuck in traffic...

They may have lights, but they don't have wings, either.

[Mairead]

27. Sure, it can happen---in an environment without cops.

The whole point of having cops is to prevent that situation from even building up.

[Mr_Spock]

77. You act like NO had infinite cops whose only job was directing traffic

As you can see with the aftermath, a major urban area has other problems besides traffic - even during an evacuation. Or did you not hear about the many of people who didn't want to leave - elderly, criminals, indigent, drug addicts, crippled - you are so oversimplifying this argument and you are losing me here - some of your points are well taken, but you've gone completely off the deep end!!

[Mr_Spock]

74. There aren't cops all over the place on Boston highways!!

Just sayin - been commuting into Boston for years and years - where are they hiding all these cops? Also, it can take an hour to get a broken down car off the road on a Boston highway - traffic backs up for miles and miles frequently. It takes time to get a cop on the scene and then get a wrecker to the scene through the now massive traffic jam.

You are WAY oversimplifying this issue to VEHEMENTLY make your argument against the mayor of NO - and you are ignoring other questions - what exactly is your motivation here?

Being unreasonable on either side to make a point is not good - you are being unreasonable simply to make your point. I don't like it.

[Mairead]

125. The brief period during which I commuted into town every morning

the road (93) seemed to be thick with staties, and I certainly saw disabled cars being shoved into the breakdown lane very quickly. This was in the early '90s, for about 6 months (I then got a job where I went across to North Andover, instead. Much better.) Do you come down 2 or 3 or something? I hardly ever saw cops on 3, even before they tore it up.

[Mr_Spock]

139. Actually I commute on 93 & 128 - almost NEVER see a cop

They just get in the way. Sometimes they park at exits to slow traffic and if there is an accident they show up pretty quickly (within 1/2 hour), but it could easily take 1 1/2 - 2 hours to clear an accident or move a broken down car. Been commuting for 20 years on 93 too...

[chalky]

25. Here you go. From the mouth (or keyboard) of a hurricane expert.

In an evacuation, buses would be dispatched along their regular routes throughout the city to pick up people and go to the Superdome, which would be used as a staging area. From there, people would be taken out of the city to shelters to the north.

Some experts familiar with the plans say they won't work.

"That's never going to happen because there's not enough buses in the city," said Charley Ireland, who retired as deputy director of the New Orleans Office of Emergency Preparedness in 2000. "Between the RTA and the school buses, you've got maybe 500 buses, and they hold maybe 40 people
each. It ain't going to happen."

The plan has other potential pitfalls.

No signs are in place to notify the public that the regular bus stops are also the stops for emergency evacuation. In Miami Beach, Fla., every other bus stop sports a huge sign identifying it as a hurricane evacuation stop.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4637651&mesg_id=4637651

Plenty more at that post. Link to the original article is included in that post.

Now please, FOR GOD'S SAKE, will you go off an share this with your cronies? We're all sick and tired of seeing posts on this stupid topic.

[lynne]

26. Thankfully, a few determined individuals -

- took it upon themselves to take a bus and get themselves and others out of NO. Quite a few lives were saved by people with no bus driving training and no place to go except the hell out of New Orleans. Great story of survival -

More at link: http://www.local6.com/news/4929516/detail.html

Storm Victims Steal School Buses To Flee New Orleans

POSTED: 12:13 pm EDT September 2, 2005
UPDATED: 12:52 pm EDT September 2, 2005

Several school buses were stolen from Orleans Parish, loaded with storm victims and driven out of New Orleans toward Houston in desperate acts to leave the ravaged city, according to reports.

Three school buses were stopped Thursday night in Port Allen, La., just west of Baton Rouge after they were stolen, according to WBRZ-TV in Baton Rouge. The evacuees were placed on other buses and transferred to shelters in Texas.

An 18-year-old also decided to take matters into his own hands and stole an abandoned city school bus and drove storm victims to Texas, according to a CNN report.

The teen driver, Jabbar Gibson, 18, said he had never driven a bus before but wanted to save people.

"If it wasn't for him, we'd still be in New Orleans on the Gulf," bus passenger Randy Nathan said. "He got the bus for us."

<see link for rest of story>

[Mairead]

29. Exactly!! In a life-or-death situation, the only rule is 'make it happen'

[Zodiak]

88. he was arrested for stealing the bus

I saw it on another thread, a report from Houston channel five.

Apparently, poor people stealing a bus to save 100 others is an "extreme case of looting", as the news channel put it.

[dogday]

30. I would think not enough manpower to get the people

to the buses and drive them. Needed all city and rescue people to be in NO for after the storm. Now if we had the NG who should of been there to help drive and get these people out of their homes it would of been different.

[Mairead]

34. As Lynne points out in her post, driving a bus does not require an

engineering degree. They're trucks. Anyone can drive them. Even I've driven a bus-sized truck (scary, but I did it). City busses, school busses, commandeered commercial busses, ambulances for the seriously handicapped, all shuttling out and back over and over again.

[dogday]

41. Yes but going house to house to get those

people to come out and to get the people down to the spot where the buses are running, etc takes personnel. How many buses would it take to shuttle 100,000 people?

edited to change number typo

[Mairead]

47. How many busses?

If the estimate of 500 busses x 40 people is correct (I think it's too low because it doesn't factor in commercial or NG busses), then it would take 10 trips, call it 12. Ninety minutes northwest of town, come back for more. Forty-eight hours, all done.

That's presuming the number is 200K -- I thought it was 100K.

[dogday]

60. You make it sound so simple

to evacuate sick people and infirmed people and people who are wanting not to leave. It is not that easy of a deal to just put people on buses. If it was, I believe they would of/should of done it.....

[Star]

65. 90 minutes northwest of town

was where the hurricane also hit. Hurricane force winds extended 125 miles from the eye.

Want to try again to IGNORE what everyone's trying to tell you?

[ClassWarrior]

66. But, but... we could put them in a TENT CITY there!!...

<sarcasm off>

NGU.

[dogday]

73. Looking at the posts I don't believe

everyone is trying to tell me anything. The NG should of been in the city helping coordinate the evacuation efforts and they were not and the police could not do it all. Again you are forgetting the special handling and transportation of the sick and elderly, infirmed, etc. You have your opinion, I have mine...

[Star]

110. Wrong response

dogday, I was responding to mairead, not to you.

Sorry for the confusion.

[dogday]

114. ok-nevermind nt

[Mairead]

75. Cites please. (nt)

[Star]

117. Cites

"Hurricane-force winds extend 105 miles from the center of the mammoth storm and tropical storm-force winds extend outward up to 230 miles. It is the most powerful storm to menace the central Gulf Coast in decades."


http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/28/hurricane.katrina/

Sorry, I was off by 20 miles.

[Mairead]

128. No, I meant a cite for the range after landfall.

They always have a good time over water.

[chalky]

135. How about OHIO? Is OHIO far enough for you?

"It weakened steadily as it moved inland but remained extremely dangerous, according to the National Hurricane Center, which warned of 10 inches of rain over the Ohio Valley and the manifest dangers of inland flooding as far north as Ohio."


http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/news/nation/12502057.htm

[Star]

136. Landfall

If, at landfall, hurricane-force winds extend 105 miles from the eye, and tropical storm-force winds extend 230 miles from the eye, then you must evacuate people beyond the 230-mile range, especially if you are going to put them into tents.

Since landfall is never certain until it actually occurs, you must evacuate people further than the 230-mile range just in case. In the case of Katrina, it made a little jog to the east, so the 230-mile range shifted east. It could just as easily have made a little jog to the west.

That means, you must move people at least 250 miles away, a minimum (not counting stops for gas, etc.) 10-hour round trip bus ride, in order to ensure their safety.

That's unreasonable, especially when you factor in the erratic nature of hurricanes. On Friday and Saturday, landfall was even more uncertain. In fact, just after the storm entered the gulf, it was forecast to hit Pensacola. Should those residents have all been evacuated to tent cities at that time?

A better plan is to have evacuation shelters (superdome, convention center) for those residents who can't or won't leave the city, and then a plan (FEMA who, according to its website, assumes primary responsibility) to provide necessities to those people until they can either return home or be evacuated to some other place.

[Mr_Spock]

79. You should have been there driving busses

What the heck where YOU doing :rofl:

You're a hard-headed person who isn't going to listen to any arguments - good luck :D

[Karmadillo]

38. School buses don't have safety belts. America would never endanger

its citizens by sending them into adverse weather conditions without adequate protection.

[Mairead]

52. mwahahahaha ....excellent sarcasm! (nt)

[Mr_Spock]

84. The extent that you have made sense in your last 20 posts

:D - so there.

[Dunvegan]

48. Here's Another Take...Perhaps for the Next Disaster...

I've worked "Get Out the Vote" efforts quite a number of years, and know that Dem ward leaders have lists of Democratic voters that are infirm, elderly, or without means to drive to a polling place.

Perhaps both the Democrats and Republican ward chairpeople should have dug up these lists and used them just prior to Katrina hitting to move the people that were listed as incapable to get a few blocks, much less over 75-100 miles away.

[MojoXN]

86. IMHO...

It sure as hell was! School busses AND city busses should have been used. But remember, coordinating an evacuation is supposed to be FEMA's job. It still doesn't excuse the locals from taking matters into their own hands. They could have had all of the busses parked at the Superdome lot and ready to go, just in case. But, as you said, 20/20 hindsight.

MojoXN

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

138. I agree that there's a lot of blame for all levels of government

But the single greatest attrocity in my opinion is the failure to fully fund the building of safer levees and restoring the protective wetlands. That was in the hands of the feds.

[Indy Lurker]

113. why so much blame

Why doe this have to be someone's fault?

Sure lots of mistakes were made, things could have been done better, but this was a natural disaster.

In fact, the largest natural disaster to ever hit a large US city.

We should be happy that a 50 year old levee designed for a cat 3 storm held for 24 hrs after being hit by a cat 5 storm.

We should be happy that tens of thousands of people who could not or would not follow the mandatory evacuation order were able to be saved.

In reality individuals are responsibe for their own safety, the govt is only there to help.

[dogday]

119. Because this could of been prevented or at least lessened

The levees should of been shored up and could of been had Bush not taken the money from them for HS and Iraq.

Federal Disaster was already declared before the storm which should of gotten the NG to roll. They waited too long before entering the city to pass out water and food.

They locked people up in deplorable conditions I cannot even begin to imagine with dead corpses and no bathroom facilities.

People died because they could of dropped supplies and did not. People died because the NG took 4 days to come to town to help.

If this had been a terrorist event, it would of been the worst possible scenario. I guess our government is sending us a message. Be prepared, we are not going to help you...


Blame, yes I got a whole hell of a lot of Blame.

[Mairead]

121. It was a natural storm, but an unnatural disaster.

People didn't do their jobs, and all else followed.

[chalky]

123. NEW ORLEANS SURVIVED THE HURRICANE. BUT NOT THE FLOODWALL BREACH.

"The storm weakened slightly and wobbled toward the east just before reaching land, sparing New Orleans the cataclysmic devastation many had feared."
http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/news/nation/12502057.htm

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zenlitened]

133. "... the govt is only there to help." Uh yeah, that's exectly the problem.

Why didn't the government help?

And before you resume harping about "blame," you might want to try the word "accountability" on for size.

:dunce:

[Mr_Spock]

137. and I thought that was a Republican viewpoint?

:shrug:

Is that guy a Republican?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

142. Good, When you're up to your neck in water, snakes and fecal matter

for five days, let us know how your small gov't plan is working

[KeepItReal]

124. Order for evacuation begain Friday/Saturday - Were drivers available?

Can you do the local equvalent of federalizing city employees that drive buses? The drivers were probably worried about getting themselves and their own families outta town.

This is a question that does need to be answered.

[chalky]

130. My guess is the drivers were long gone.

It's also unclear whether the city's entire staff of bus drivers will remain. A union spokesman said that while drivers are aware of the plan, the union contract lacks a provision requiring them to stay.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4637651&mesg_id=4637651

[nyhuskyfan]

134. They still need a place to drive them...

The federal government (FEMA) needs to be in charge of the logisitics for federal emergencies. They need to set up the shelters, the emergency supplies, the evacuation plan, etc. And an evacuation plan for one Hurricane might be different than the next, depending on its anticipated path.

All the buses in the world don't do any good without some idea of where to bring all the people. FEMA should request (or demand) the assistance of local resources to implement the plan, of course, but the mayor of New Orleans can't evacuate people onto Naval hospital ships or shelters in Arkansas.

[The Magistrate]

145. Locking

This has run its course.