Kerry National Service Plan

[sandnsea]

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/service.html

National Service

What we need is to call on our citizens - tapping into the idealism and ingenuity of Americans and putting it to work on building a safer, stronger, and more secure nation.

1. A Kerry Administration will offer Americans the chance to earn the equivalent of their state's four-year public college tuition in exchange for two years of service. If service members decide not to go to college, their award can be used for job training, to help start a business, or to make a down payment on the purchase of a home.

2. John Kerry understands that young people have many obligations and recognizes that a service requirement should not be onerous or unrealistic for students to meet. Maryland and numerous school districts around the country already have such a requirement and have had great results. Knowledge of the rights and responsibilities of citizenship - including the duty to serve your community - are as important to American adults as knowing how to read and do math. Combined with a curriculum that teaches students about democracy, citizenship and civic participation, this high school service requirement will be a rite of passage for every young person in the country. States would design service programs that meet their community and educational needs. (If a school doesn't take the funding, the school doesn't have to participate. And just like sex ed, parents ALWAYS have the option of pulling their child out of a program they object to.)

3. Retired Not Tired. Luckily, today's Americans are living longer and staying healthy into their retirement. John Kerry will call on these seniors to use their experiences and energies for the good of the nation in a new Retired Not Tired program. In exchange for 10 hours of service a week, members will earn up to $2,000 a year tax
free that they can apply to an education grant for a grandchild or other family member, a child in their neighborhood, or one of the young people they mentor. Seniors will be able to use these funds to defray their own health care costs.

3. Summer of Service - Supervised by AmeriCorps members, these young people could visit nursing homes, clean up local areas, or teach seniors computer skills. In turn, they would receive a $500 grant to apply to their college or vocational educations down the road.

4. Rebirth of Peace Corps - Today, 6,700 Peace Corps members serve in 69 countries around the world. While they do good work, that is far fewer than served in the 1960's - when much of the world was off limits due to the Cold War. John Kerry believes we need a major expansion of the Peace Corps for this new century and in this new era. In the White House, John Kerry will push to expand the Peace Corps to 25,000 members.

6. Supporting Military Service - In a Kerry Administration, no university that receives federal aid will be allowed to ban the ROTC from their campus, except for religious reasons. And the ROTC scholarship program will be adequately funded so that students can attend the college of their choice.

[Name removed]

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[Skinner]

2. kick

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[XanaDUer]

3. Kick

eom.

[JI7]

4. right, most is VOLUNTARY

only high school service is required.and the work kids in high school would do is not work as adults do work on a set schedule every week. what happens is they are given a number of hours they must fulfill. they are given this before high school starts, and they can complete these hours anytime during their entire high school years. and this work isn't work as adults do for pay and profit, it's community based like helping other kids with their school work, or spending time with those in retirement homes, or little children in a hospital, etc. my brother did this and he waited until his final year and finished it early and never did it more than 1 day a week.it's actually just part of the education just as field trips, science projects, essay contests, etc are. i remember hating to take art classes and physical education and some other classes. and the programs would be set up by locals so it allows them to set it up according to the needs of those in the area.

[KaraokeKarlton]

5. Um, you added something Kerry's plan doesn't include

This part:

(If a school doesn't take the funding, the school doesn't have to participate. And just like sex ed, parents ALWAYS have the option of pulling their child out of a program they object to.)

Those aren't Kerry's words, they are YOUR words. I oppose Kerry's madatory community service for kids. Community Service is a punishment for those who commit misdemeanor crimes that don't warrant jail time. Volunteer work is VOLUNTARY. Mandatory work without pay of any kind by law abiding citizens is a violation of human and civil rights.

[JI7]

6. pay is high school diploma

it's part of the education and accomplishments needed to get a high school diploma. it's not for nothing.

[KaraokeKarlton]

7. But a public education is a right, not a priveledge.

And if you believe that community service is a requirement for civil rights, why not military service as well? Why is doing work to better one's community any more important than protecting the country? And while we're at it, let's take away the pay of military personnel. Afterall, they are learning things and they get to go to college for their service. That's compensation enough. Civil Service is Civil Service, afterall.

If it was Bush proposing this plan you'd be pitching a fit.

[JI7]

8. it is part of the education

just like phys ed, field trips, group work, etc homework. and these are minors we are talking about. those who go into the military are legally adults who chose to make their living that way and that's why they are paid in money and education.

[KaraokeKarlton]

10. Nonsense...

Slaves were not "legal citizens", couldn't vote and were "compensated" with shelter and food. Does that make it right? Apparently some of Kerry's supporters don't think kids' rights matter much. That's sure what it sounds like to me.

[JI7]

11. that's pretty disgusting

you are comparing slavery to kerry's service plan. so you oppose kids doing chores at home ? this isn't hard labor. you really l ost me on that one by comparing it to slavery. my brother had this requirement at his school, and many other schools have it. i had it required for one class i did. it is NOT slavery. it's simple work like helping out other students in school work or spending time people at retirement homes. and it's not based on schedules adults have for the work they do for pay and profit.

[KaraokeKarlton]

14. Good, it was supposed to express my disgust with Kerry's proposal

That is exactly how I view it. It's wrong. Whether or not a child does chores is at the discretion of the adults who brought that child into the world, not the government. My children do chores, for which they are compensated with an allowance. You see, kids who are made to do things without compensation that they don't choose to do of their own free will tend to do a lousy job. They resent it. I certainly wouldn't want to be a little old lady in a nursing home being visited by some grouchy teenager who didn't even want to be there. The great thing about volunteer services is that people are doing it because they WANT to. If they WANT to do it, they are very pleasant, cheerful and brighten the day of those they are doing the service for. If they DON'T want to be there it's not going to be a pleasant experience for those receiving the "services" and it certainly won't "build community". The only thing it will "build" is resentment, bitterness, negativity and hard feelings.

[JI7]

15. so lets get rid of homework

there are MANY kids who hate doing it and do a horrible job at it. we can get rid of tests also. just because you may hate it doesn't make it comparable to slavery. i some classes i thought i had no need for, but would not compare it to slavery. my brother had to do the community service for graduation and it certainly was not slavery.

[sangha]

26. Why stop at homework?

Why not get rid of a public education altogether? After all, that's what we had (or more accurately, didn't have) for most of our history. And forcing those kids has obviously bred nothing but "resentment, bitterness, negativity and hard feelings."

[ButterflyBlood]

67. apples to oranges

homework and tests are measures of how much learning the student has acquired in the class. They're not meant to benefit the public, as Kerry's plan is supposed to do. Sending out a bunch of unwilling workers to the community will do more harm than good.

[JI7]

75. it benefits the student

it's part fo the education. just like field trips, group work, plays, music, etc. of course all subjects and things done in school will not benefit all kids equally but it's just part of the education.

[ButterflyBlood]

66. best point

involuntary work is never good.

[JI7]

76. so get rid of public schools ?

people do things they don't want to many times. when one works they pay taxes that may go to things they don't agree with. right wingers don't want to pay taxes to pay for public schools and other things, but they have to do it anyways.

[LeahMira]

81. Sorry, but that's baloney!

You see, kids who are made to do things without compensation that they don't choose to do of their own free will tend to do a lousy job.

Some do, but some find out that they actually like doing it. I'd give them several choices though. Maybe some would prefer to cut grass or whatever to visiting seniors.


The great thing about volunteer services is that people are doing it because they WANT to.

There are plenty of things that I don't WANT to do, but I do them because the consequences of not doing them are consequences that I WANT even less.

Sorry, but IMO a big part of what's wrong with this country is that we have the idea that we are so free that we only have to do what we WANT to do. Maybe we need to start teaching our children that they and we have a responsibility to the family and to the community.

[KaraokeKarlton]

90. Some of us already do teach them responsibility to the community

And it is a parent's job to do that, not the government's or John Kerry's. Kids aren't allowed to vote and don't have the full rights of citizenship, and the government has no business demanding such "responsibility" and service from a population that doesn't have all the rights of an adult.

[JI7]

95. and "some" parents homeschool

it should be the parents responsiblity since kids can't vote and don't have full rights as citizens. why demand such things as research papers, science projects, group work which could lead to working with kids who have values different from the ones the parents want their kids to have. parents should homeschool if they want their kids to learn something. the government has no right to force kids into schools and learn certain things like evolution since it conflicts with our values and beliefs. let parents homeschool and end the burden of public schools.

[Lady President]

83. I still believe people are good

I may be simple and naive, but I believe that once people start helping others the negativity will leave. For example, you would have to be heartless not to find joy in teaching someone to read. Once someone tries volunteering and sees how little effort it takes to help someone, they will be changed from a cynical teenager into someone happy to return. I actually find it very scary that you feel that young people would only be bitter volunteering. That does indicate that there are some larger problems with the world.

And, I had chores as a kid and did not get compensated for doing them. I did them well because they were my responsibility as a member of my family, and I valued and respected my parents.

[KaraokeKarlton]

92. Oh, kids love to volunteer but we aren't talking about volunteering

See, volunteering is something a person does because they choose to do it. Being forced to do something is NOT volunteering, it's fascism.

[rocktivity]

18. Right, KaraokeKarlton--This is unconstitutional and discriminatory

You're forcing (by making it mandatory) people to work for no pay (the legal definiton of slavery) by taking advantage of the fact that they're in a certain age group (discrimination). Calling it "character-building" or "part of the maturing/educational process" are just euphamisms for free labor. Helping a classmate with homework, reading to a senior citizen, or picking up litter in a playground doesn't doesn't build character or civic pride unless you're doing it because you WANT to.


rocknation

[KaraokeKarlton]

20. Damn Straight!

I don't have a problem with encouraging it, but making it mandatory makes my blood boil. Kids already have plenty of responsibility in school. They don't need to be exploited in this way on top of everything else they have to deal with. Teenagers today are under so much pressure, kids are killing themselves or snapping and killing classmates. No more! I can't believe some people are actually defending this crap! Child labor in other countries send Democrats into a rage, yet some want to make the work easier and slap a warm and fuzzy name on it and make it a reality in America? What the hell are things coming to?

[sangha]

24. You may not like mandatory, but it's 100% Constitutional

The Constitution puts the responsibility for education squarely on the states. Each state has the power to determine what is required. If a state decides that community service is an educational requirement, then it is.

That's why your "unconstitutional!" argument is as misguided as your claim that this is work, which you repeat no matter how many times your mistake is pointed out.

[KaraokeKarlton]

32. Last time I knew

exploitation of children was illegal and a violation of human rights. You see, forcing a child to work without pay is considered enslavement of a child. Kids aren't even allowed to work at all until they reach a certain age, and then they can only work a certain amount of hours and the law requires that they be paid a fair wage for that work. Community Service is punitive and used in the court system as punishment for crime. Kids are allowed to volunteer because they are doing so of their own free will. There are better ways to get people to volunteer. Totalitarianism is NOT the way to go.

[sangha]

33. It's not exploitation. No one is making money off children

Your argument leads to the conclusion that we shouldn't force children to get an education. It's a violation of human rights and is considered enslavement of a child. Sending kids to schools is punitive and used by parents and teachers as punishment. Totalitarianism is NOT the way to go.

[JI7]

36. take out the trash, make bed, laundry

yup, we shouldn't force kids to make their beds. to clean up their rooms. to help prepare lunch, dinner, etc, and clean up afterwards if they don't want to. i know many kids who are made to do these things without any pay. you think any of the presidential candidates will come out in favor of opposition to this work unless the parents pay them ? and should it be minimum wage ? hehe.

[sangha]

38. It's exploitation and slavery!!!!

Think of the children!! Think of the children!!

[KaraokeKarlton]

50. Is the government going to pay the cost of raising everyone's kids?

Is Kerry going to buy video game systems, $150 sneakers? Designer clothing? Groceries? Pay the rent? Buy instruments? Sporting equipment? Pay insurance premiums? Pay cable bills? Pay for braces?

When John Kerry provides for all my kids' needs and wants, THEN he can tell them to work for the government. Until then, he can fuck off.

[JI7]

52. public schools are part of government

your kids benefit from the government if they go to public schools.just as people benefit from the government through the work done by firefighters, police, etc. i benefited from public schools and had no problem giving back by helping other students. my brother benefited from public schools and had no problem by doing same by helping in public libraries, and public parks and beaches. the government is not a private business belonging to a select few, but it represents all the citizens, and in some cases non citizens of a nation. it's something all benefit from and should return the same by. just as large corporations which benefit from government investment should return in many ways including paying more taxes if they make more money.

[KaraokeKarlton]

49. An academic education is quite different

However, forcing a child to work against their will and without pay is exploitation. It's wrong. Kerry is wrong. His plan would be fine if it were VOLUNTARY. However, Kerry apparently feels he has the right to make MY children work against their will. It's my job as a parent to protect my children from what I feel is exploitation and violations of their rights. I am doing my job as a parent by opposing this. I talked with my children about it and they are downright offended by his proposal. They consider it to be exploitation, discrimination, and a violation of their rights as human beings. I agree with them. They don't view going to school in that way at all.

[JI7]

54. if it's exploitation then parents shouldn't do it either

if it's exploitation then parents shouldn't force kids to do things such as take out the trash, help with dinner, clean up the tables, laundry etc either.

[sangha]

59. And it's exploitation to send them to school!

Think of the children!! Think of the children!!

[ButterflyBlood]

69. she just explained the difference

the government isn't paying to raise all these kids.

I agree, if the parents don't want the kid working, they shouldn't be forced to allow him/her.

I don't think his plan will hurt him among voters since teenagers who'd be affected by it can't vote, but if they knew that a Democratic president is who's forcing them to work to get a diploma, it may turn them off to the Democratic party when they can vote.

[JI7]

77. kids work many times

they do homework, they do chores at home. this is not hard labor we are talking about. this is about setting aside some hours which can be completed anytime during high school and the "work" is just things like helping other students with school work, helping a teacher out in some way, working in a library, spending time at a retired home, at a hospital with kids, etc. you seem to be thinking this work is equal to that an adult does for pay which requires them to work most days during the week. it's not like that at all. the work is not for profit, and it can be completed in less than half a semester by working just one day a week. if you spread it out during all the high school years you can just finish is by doing it just about one or less times a month.

[KaraokeKarlton]

93. You're missing the entire point of why it's wrong

It's forced. If it was voluntary no one would be offended by the proposal. The government also has no damn business pressuring kids to join the military.

[ButterflyBlood]

68. if that's the case

then there's no way Kerry can implement the plan nationwide.

[sangha]

22. A high school education is not a right

Check your Constitution. It leaves it to the states. Here in NY State, a judge recently decided that the state is only obligated to provide the equivalent of an 8th grade education. Are you shocked?

So were we

[paulk]

85. and if it was Dean proposing it, you'd think it was the best thing

since sliced bread, K.K.

[sandnsea]

9. That's why it's in parenthesis

Sorry if people didn't understand. But it's still true. The federal government can't mandate anything on a state or local school. They provide funding for programs and if the school doesn't want to participate, they reject the funding. In addition, parents always have the option of opting out of objectionable programs, just like sex ed.

[KaraokeKarlton]

12. Sex Ed is NOT a mandatory course for graduation.

It's an optional course. All kids get signed up UNLESS their parents object, but it is NOT mandatory in order to receive a diploma. All mandatory courses MUST be taken by ALL kids or they don't graduate. You can't just "opt out".

[sangha]

28. Now you're just making it up.

In NY State, sex ed IS MANDATORY, but parents can opt to have their children excused from it. "Mandatory" does NOT mean "no opt out"

[KaraokeKarlton]

34. Please provide a link to that information

If the course was mandatory, parents would not be allowed to "opt out". Parents are sent a letter to sign saying whether they want their child to take Sex Ed or not. All kids whose parents don't want them to have it aren't enrolled in the class. All others are enrolled. That isn't mandatory. It's usually mandatory that schools OFFER it, but I have NEVER heard of any state making it mandatory to take. I think you have those two things confused. It MUST be offered, but doesn't have to be taken. Huge difference there.

[sangha]

40. It must be taken

unless the parent objects.

Phys ed is also mandatory, but kids can get out of it. Lots of things in high school are mandatory, but many don't have to take them.

[sandnsea]

37. It is in Oregon

Fresman year, it's their social studies requirement. I had to take it in California in 1971 as part of my graduation requirements. The only way to get out of it is to have your parents sign a note saying you can't take it. Some districts have a senior parenting class as well. And actually, Vermont is working towards some sort of Governor's Diploma which would also require a community service component. It didn't get funding in 2000 and has been postponed until 2006, depending on funding. You live in Vermont, don't you? I'm surprised you didn't know about it; and Community Service Learning, I think that's what it's called.

[sangha]

42. That makes TWO states, KK

Still not convinced?

[KaraokeKarlton]

51. If it becomes mandatory I will file a lawsuit against the state

Because I won't stand for it.

[JI7]

55. what if dean doesn't oppose it ?

what if howard dean is not opposed to these schools that require it ? would you stop supporting it. after all it would mean he has no problem with something you consider exploitation.

[KaraokeKarlton]

56. If Dean were calling for what Kerry is calling for

he would lose my support. Howard Dean is not into the federal government telling states how to run things in most cases. And like I said, if it ever becomes mandatory in my state I will not hesitate to file a lawsuit against the state.

[JI7]

58. but if dean is ok with ?

so you don't expect dean to come out and oppose it ? you just don't want him to propose it on his own ? but it's ok if he allows others to do it ? in that case i assume you really don't see it as slavery and exploitation since you think it's ok for some to do it.

[sangha]

60. You're gonna file a lawsuit?

And you think that proves what?

[sandnsea]

62. Sex education?

It's mandated in Vermont, has been since 1987.

You could join the crowd that wants to have abstinence education.

http://www.abc22.com/news/a_hard_look.php?story=3067

Or the crowd that wants to have a parent sign a permission slip every single solitary day that they talk about sex.

http://www.siecus.org/policy/legislative/legis0007.html

I don't know how old your kids are, but the 3R's are long gone. Thinking about it, my son took part in a fish rehabilitation program in the 7th grade. I guess it was slavery since he didn't get paid for helping create fish habitat. He never saw it that way. Neither did the girl who went well beyond the outline of the program and won a community service award which was presented to her in Washington D.C.

[JI7]

63. we planted trees

hey, we planted trees and did other things in support of the environment. do you think i can sue for that exploitation and child labor ? heheehhe

[Eloriel]

13. Well said. I agree entirely.

This is frankly monstrous, and hardly worthy of a Democrat, let alone one who some consider "liberal."

Eloriel

[HPLeft]

16. This is a philosophical discussion

Many Americans have decided that they have unlimited rights but no real responsibilities - either to other Americans, or to the world. But I can easily imagine a better society than the one we have today, where it is expected that people do something in return for various entitlements.

I wasn't aware that Maryland had the community service requirement for high school graduation. I'd be interested to know how Maryland residents feel about the program, and how the kids feel about it. But, assuming the program is considered successful, and there is not a lot adolecent resentment being built up because of it, maybe the idea could work.

As to your point, I'm not sure I'd look at it as mandatory work, but more as an obligation to give back to the society as a whole. In a society with progressive taxation, we ask the wealthy to pay a larger share of their income to support the good of the whole. Why shouldn't be also ask sacrifices of other people, including some kind of modest requirement for high school students - especially if by doing so we can impress upon them some sense of civic duty. Hey, we're talking about an America where only 40% of eligible voters even bothered to vote in 2000. That's scary. The more I think of it, the more I think that Kerry is onto something here. I'm just not sure that he can sell it.

[TheDonkey]

17. How much service does a high school student have to fullfill?

I can't seem to find this forced community service bit.

I think it is fine that High Schoolers are forced to participate in community service (much like Phys. Ed, Art, etc which many don't realize the benefits). But it must be reasonable, i don't see anything wrong with a student completing one community service project a year, or for 4 years in hs.

[JI7]

27. it's usually

it's usually a certain amount of hours which can be completed anytime during their high school years. can't remember how many my brother did, but he completed his in less than one sememster by doing it no more than once a week. someone else mentioned it can be anywhere between 50 to 100 hours depending on how many years the specific high school has. suppose it's 4 years of high school with 100 hours service. that's 25 hours a year or 12 and a half hours a semester. it certainly isn't slavery.

[Lady President]

30. Guessing

I am just guessing, but most schools that require community service to graduate set standards of 50-100 hrs. during high school. My high school required 80 hrs. (20 per year, if you entered the school after your freshman year.) This works out to under a half-hour a week. I volunteered at the Special Olympics for a weekend and met my yearly requirement. (Side note: Without this requirement I probably would never have volunteered for the Special Olympics, but I have helped many times since then because like most decent people I find that I enjoy helping others. Lots of high school students need a push.)

[JI7]

45. and you didn't feel exploited ?

and i'm guessing you didn't feel exploited or a victom of slavery for having done so as some here are claiming this plan to be ?

but seriously, this is what i mean about it being part of the education. we had mulicultural events every few weeks on fridays at my school. it's something the right wing always comes out against claiming it's not education,but indoctrination etc. but it's just another way of getting your education. just like you learned with the olympics. i also helped out in the school library at times. i learned a lot about how they set up the system of arranging the books and research. it's one of those things where you never question how things are but when you learn how it works you get something out of it. i enjoyed helping other students after that with their research assignments and book searches. and this was all done during school hours.

[Lady President]

80. Absolutely not

To me, it is very difficult to understand how anyone who has done volunteer work wouldn't want a plan to encourage others to do the same. The volunteer benefits just as much as those who are receiving help.

I agree that this is a program that teaches lessons beyond the "three Rs" which is so important today. I think school are being pressured to have their students pass proficiency tests to such an extent that everyone is forgeting there is more to education than memorizing facts. We need to feel that we are part of a community and that if everyone puts forth a little effort, we can make changes. I have to admit I was stunned to read the negative opinions about Kerry's proposal.

[Former Republican]

19. stupid plan by Kerry

This is how it should work: student gets good grades===>student graduates.

Also: student wants to go to college====>state pays 100% tuition

[TheDonkey]

21. And Gephart is for fully state funded schooling?

While I'm unsure about this HS requirement deal, I very much agree with Kerry's promotion of Americorp and service for grants. Excellent idea for excellent reasons.

[KaraokeKarlton]

25. I like Dean Corps, which is voluntary and proving successful

Volunteering is voluntary. Community Service is punitive. Kerry is wrong for wanting to force kids to work against their will and without compensation.

[sangha]

31. Let's eliminate the entire educational system then

After all, all children are required to get an education. How punitive is THAT? Isn't it wrong to want to "force kids to work against their will and without compensation"?

[KaraokeKarlton]

35. Can't we just eliminate

your internet access instead?

[sangha]

44. Don't have an argument?

Ran out of irrationality?

Make a personal attack. Yep, that's the ticket!

[DemDogs]

41. Community service is NOT punitive

Boy that sounds like a Republican or Libertarian comment. Is that how Dean supporters generally feel about this? How about other Dean supporters, how do you feel about Edwards idea of high school community service requirement (adopted by Kerry)?

[JI7]

46. WOW, good for edwards

nice to see him supporting this also. and some of these comments do remind me of right wingers who attack taxes and claim it's unfair to the wealthy and gives a free ride in welfare to the "lazy".

[DemDogs]

39. That would be Edwards' College for Everyone Plan

<http://www.johnedwards2004.com/education.asp>
College for Everyone (scroll down to bottom of page)
Graduate from high school and admitted to college, tuition free first year at a state university or community college if the student works or does community service 10 hours a week.

Just one of Edwards' great ideas.

[sandnsea]

47. Both great plans -

What I really like about Edwards' plan is that it says do X, go to college. Simple. Except it only guarantees the first year.

Kerry's has more options. Two years service, go to school for 4 years. Summer of service for grants. He also wants to expand Pell Grants and make Super Pells for the top 10% of graduates.

I'd actually like to see Edwards' plan implemented with Kerry's on top of it. That way kids know from first grade that they can go to college. No question about it. I think that would have a great pscyhological impact on kids and encourage them to learn from the earliest age.

[JI7]

48. also

when they know they don't have to worry about pay for first year they can just worry about getting in and once the yget in they can try to do good and get good grades which would help them get scholarships, aid , or loans for the rest of the years. actually i think edward's plan pays for 2 years, not sure though. but i really like it. it also doesn't have an age limit so those who are older and want to go back for whatever reason can benefit also. kerry has more variety in that it allows funding for job training in other ways for those who don't want to go to college also. and it has ways to help senior citizens through tax credits or savings in exchange for service like helping kids or other similar work. i wonder what general clark thinks of these things. i'm guessing he would be for it as he understands the importance of service and i think i remember him talking about it many times.

[JohnKleeb]

57. Kucinich has a nice plan as well

but to Edwards I like it John.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

23. Here's why Kerry will make (is really) a great leader

Because this is what Bush should have done on Sep. 12, 2001, when everyone in America was looking for something, ANYTHING to do to help their fellow Americans. The fact John Kerry has proposed such a plan and that it is remotely unlike anything anyone else has shows that he has the vision and courage to be the leader this country so desparately needs at this juncture in our history.
And this complaint about "mandatory service" is bullshit. There is no way a truly compassionate liberal like Kerry would ever force anyone to do anything they didn't want to. There are obviously going to be "outs" for whoever wants or needs one. Suggestions that Kerry wants to enslave kids are paranoid (to put it kindly).

[JI7]

29. it's soooo not slavery

my brother did it and it's nothing like slavery. in fact it's an insult to those whoa re in slavery or to the kids who have to work in sweatshops to compare it to that.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

53. Yeah well, hyperbole is the DU way

:eyes:

[sandnsea]

43. Bill Clinton - Service Learning

http://www.leaderschools.org/slls_history.html

"I challenge every high school in America to make service a part of its basic ethic. Every high school student who can do so should do some community service. There are some schools, both public and private, that require community service as a part of their curriculum. I say, good for them. Commitment to community should be an ethic we learn as soon as possible so we carry it throughout our lives."

[2cents]

61. Bad timing

When the chimp sees this, he'll have visions of a mandatory "Youth Corps" dancing in his pea-brain.

[FlaGranny]

64. If I remember correctly,

college admissions departments give a lot of weight to community service.

My youngest son went into community service (mostly helping handicapped children) as soon as he was old enough and continued it through his first year or two of college, at which time he got too busy with his classes to continue. For a total of 6 or 7 years he spent nearly every free minute volunteering.

[KittyWampus]

65. I Fully Support Some Kind Of National Service

Either military or, if person objects on ethical grounds, some pre-agreed on civilian alternative.

When you belong to a family, you have obligations and responsibilities as well as benefits.

So it should be when we consider that we are all part of the American family.

We should broade our understanding of family to include our fellow citizens...

[ButterflyBlood]

70. what if the person objects on "not wanting to die" grounds?

n/t

[sangha]

71. The answer is in the 1st line

Either military or, if person objects on ethical grounds, some pre-agreed on civilian alternative.

Got it? A "CIVILIAN alternative"

[ButterflyBlood]

72. how, that only applies on "ethical grounds"

not if the person simply objects.

and btw if something like that were implemented, I'd be suprised if even 10% picked the military. I don't know a single person who would, who isn't already in the military.

[KittyWampus]

73. Honest Answer From Me- TOO BAD!

If someone claims Conscientious Objector then there'd be alternatives... Germany does that.

If someone says, "Afraid to Die" then's it's too damn bad. They get to go into military anyway... Men and women

AND MAYBE THEY'D PAY MORE FREAKING ATTENTION TO POLITICS TO MAKE SURE THEY DON'T GET DRAGGED INTO WAR AND GETTING DEAD!

[ButterflyBlood]

74. let's point a gun to people's heads to make them pay attention

bleh, riduculous.

of course everyone with "afraid to die" will just claim conscientious objector anyway so it's a moot point. I'd do anything humanly possible to avoid military service. I will NEVER do it. Period, end of story.

[JI7]

79. and that's the situation right NOW

most who have other alternatives would not go into the military. those who go in are mostly poor and see it as their only and best choice. of course people will chose something else if they have a choice. and that's the point of the original poster, they have a choice of military or civilian. but kerry's plan doesn't include mandatory military service. the only mandatory is the high schools service which many schools already have including the one my brother went to. it's something that can be completed in no time. it's just like doing homework or a science project or a field trip.

[sandnsea]

89. Die from reading kids books???

I don't get where this would kill a teen-ager? Well, I suppose if a 5 year old was just totally anti-books and threw one at somebody's head or something.

This proposal has NOTHING to do with the military. Nothing, zero, zilch, zip. It's a high school civics class that incorporates community service. That's all.

[KaraokeKarlton]

91. Actually, some seniors in homes are violent

Animals at a shelter sometimes attack. Drunk and drugged up drivers sometimes hit people with their vehicles. Since the kids are volunteers and aren't getting paid, that's another unfair burden on the family. And what if the family lacks insurance?

[JI7]

94. kids get shot in schools

kids get shot in schools. kids get hurt during physical education. kids get into fights during lunch. there was a preschool where a drunk drove into the school killing a couple of kids a few years ago. and there are parents who can't pay for cares and struggle to pay for public transportation, which is also dangerous in some cases as you don't k now the strangers on the bus. why burden them in this way ? what if the family lacks insurance ?

[KaraokeKarlton]

96. Parents can choose to homeschool to deal with those risks

They can transport their own children as well. Also, one of the common denominators in school shooting tragedies is that the kids who pulled the trigger was under more pressure than they could handle and snapped. Whether the form of the pressure came in being teased, ridiculed, or whatever...the kids had pent up anger, resentment and more stress/pressure than they could handle. Piling even more pressure and stress upon American kids against their will only serves to set the stage for more "Columbines".

As another poster pointed out on this thread...kids already do a lot of volunteer work because they choose to do it. Young people from highschool through college and the elderly are the highest percentage of volunteers in this country. You know who should be mandated to volunteer? Welfare recipients. But of course, when the subject of being made to do something productive through welfare reform comes up, most of the same people defending Kerry oppose forcing that population to do "community service". Why is that? Kids are already working hard and doing their part. So if anyone is going to be told to get out and do something to give back to their community, why not those who are being supported by it?

[JI7]

97. "welfare recipients"

like enron ?

[Speed8098]

98. How utterly right wing of you

Your statement: They can transport their own children as well

How pretentious is that? I guess you don't know anyone who doesn't have transportation.

I've been reading this thread and I find that you, KK, are a major part of the problem with todays youth.
They seem to have the mindset of, "If it doesn't benefit ME, then I don't have to do it." What utter bushit.

Life is not fair, and sometimes we have to do things we don't want to.

According to your theory, this scenario is acceptable.

Mom to daughter: It's time to do the dishes.
Daughter: But I don't want to
Mom: Well you have to anyway.
So the daughter resentfully does the dishes, but does a really bad job.
Mom: Honey, you missed some things.
Daughter: I know mom, I'm sorry, but I just hate doing dishes.
Mom: That's ok sweetie, since you did such a horrible job, you don't have to do them anymore.

Where has compassion gone in this country? Sometimes we do things we don't like to do because someone else could benefit from that action.

While I'm not a Kerry supporter, I am a supporter of this project. It may just build some character.


I don't believe in "spare the rod spoil the child", but I do believe we have turned our kids into an "It's all about me." society, and it's time these kids learn to have respect for OTHER HUMAN BEINGS.

It's not all about me, it's all about US

[curse10]

78. Thank you for posting the actual language of the proposal

and not someone's personal spin. :-)

[QuestioningStudent]

82. Taxation=Service?

Ah, the joys of an ambiguous subject line.

Here's a related thought for everyone who has an objection to this plan on the grounds that it will "enslave" somebody, or infringes on personal freedoms, etc: If it is acceptable--morally, philisophically, ethically, and practically--for the government to tax its citizens, and taxes are just a percentage of someone's life in a cash equivalent (since you (generally) work for your money, it necessarily took you time to earn it, so taxes do represent a portion of your life you are giving to the government), why is it NOT acceptable for the government to requisition a part of someone's life in a DIFFERENT form--time spent in service, in this case? In each case, you are providing the government with a portion of your life, it just so happens that in one case it is in the form of a bunch of dollar bills, and in the other it is with direct service.

I will point out that we DO tax minors who work, no safe objection there.

[QuestioningStudent]

84. Grounds to declare Unconstitutional

Right, this is an argument to entertain those who don't think a constitutional basis for challening any mandatory service proposals exists.

1)Amendment XIII to the US Constitution prohibits slavery.
2)Slavery is subject to legislative and ultimately judicial
interpretation.
3)Not sure about the current definition, but it could be argued,
possibly quite successfully, that any involuntary abrogation of a
person's right to self-determination constitutes a form of
slavery. This could apply to a compulsory program of
community/civil service amongst the public school population
because school attendance is MANDATORY, and ergo such a program of
service is MANDATORY. No way out of the program, the program says
you MUST serve, abrogates your right to self-determination, is
equivalent to a form of enslavement, bob's your uncle, prohibited
under Amendemnt XIII.

Not to say I think this is a completely valid argument, or that such a determination on the definition of slavery is valid or is likely to be, but there's a possibility for anyone disputing the existence of a constitutional argument against such a plan.

If that's completely whacked out, my bad. I'm terribly sleep and caffeine deprived.

[quaker bill]

86. I have no problem with service

I have a problem with mandatory service.

Making service mandatory obviates most of the potential character building aspects of a service program. Providing strong encouragement or incentive (like college tuition) for voluntary service would be a good thing.

I put myself through college busting my a** at near minimum wage restaurant jobs and such. Were a non-military service opportunity available doing more meaningful work, I definitely would have taken it.

[Trek234]

87. Wow you people are out of touch

As a high school senior I can tell you volunteering for the community is quite common. In fact I don't know anyone who has not volunteered before.

There are various "honor" programs that require you volunteer. NHS comes to mind.

Also, volunteering is probably most common in regards to college. Colleges like to see volunteering (or at least we are told this) so people volunteer if they want to go to college to increase chances of going to a better school, the school they want, etc.

People who are not going to college or are not in an honor program, etc, volunteer too. (i.e. people like my self)

Kerrys little legislative proposals seem out of touch and needless IMO. It's sort of like creating a law that says you have to sleep everday when most people sleep everday anyway.

The rest of you people speak as if teens rarely ever do anything for the community, and I can tell you that is BS at its finest.

[George_Bonanza]

88. Correct

Colleges and universities value volunteerism and well-roundedness over perfect grades, I think. I mean, a B+ student that volunteers and plays on the baseball team has a better chance than an A student with a lethargic streak, I think. Kerry's proposal isn't a dramatic thing. All kids who want to have quality post-secondary education have mandatory volunteer hours in the first place. And those who don't want to go to college, volunteerism will benefit them and their communities. If students are forced to take fine arts or science courses, why is it such a leap of logic for some to see volunteerism/activism as mandatory "courses"?