Rape mentality exhibited in NOLA

[nofurylike]

Letter to my Investigative Reporter Friend
and other not so investigatively-inclined reporters

a recent poll showed 30-35% percent of men would rape if they knew they could get away with it(1). that is the low number.

the "anarchy" so widely trumpeted by mass media is the exact same "anarchy" womyn live under 24/7. we live constantly aware that we must take precautions to protect ourselves. one of those precautions is to not walk alone in dark alleys.

every hidden corner of the pitch dark superdome - especially the bathrooms with sewage running over, so no 'decent' person would go into them except in emergency - was a dark alley. and every womon was without law enforcement protection those nights.

it was not a race dynamic, it was a gender one.

my every attacker in life has been a white man - and that is not because i stay only in white areas. in one nearby lily-white town, it was understood by all that if a man wanted to coerce sex from a womon, all he had to do was threaten to drop her off "down in the corn fields," where packs of men knew to go to find easy rape victims. the rural dark alley.

every shelter i have been in has had a section segregated for womyn and children. amnesty international said the NOLA shelters had not followed the most basic rules of protecting the vulnerable. "Relief groups have an obligation to make vulnerable populations a top priority when planning and operating shelters," said Sheila Dauer, director of women's human rights for Amnesty International USA, in a recent interview in Women's enews.

it is male journalists(/male-dominated media), who recoil at facing the male problem in all societies, that have perpetrated (many by default, not saying explicitly, but allowing the implication) the idea that the "anarchy" was primarily by blacks (almost all the people we saw in tv reports) - letting inaccurate but convenient stereotypes of blacks do the implying for them, in not stating otherwise.

after all, how many journalists have said some of the first shooting was done by white men? they say, "people in an affluent neighborhood, on watch...shot..." now, where they are race specific in all other instances, one ought to know that meant white men, but so many of us white judges out here are more comfortable with that omission, that of course we'd not let those pieces come crystal clear.

what is gagging so many men about this is that they are having such a glaring look at what we womyn are aware of every minute. do not go into dark alleys. we know for fact that we are 'fair game' wherever men are certain they can get away with raping us.

THAT is the crime we are witnessing.

the anarchy was by government, whose protection is all that has ever stood between womyn and marauding rapists of any race or class.

_____

1. Kilpatrick, D.G., Edmunds, C.N. & Seymour A. 1992 Rape in America: A Report to the Nation. Arlington, VA: National Victim Center.
http://www.taasa.org/sexual_assault/default.php

also:
The Illinois Coalition Against Sexual Assault (ICASA)
and American Medical Association

http://www.teensarenotadisease.com/acquaintance_rape_hurts.htm
and many other sources.

[Generic Other]

1. show us your tits and we will rescue you

show us your tits and we will rescue you
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4663218

[nofurylike]

2. yes! arrrgh!! can't catch my breath, reading that!! thank you, GO! eom

[Generic Other]

3. Saddam had rape rooms, Bush has rape stadiums.

Saddam had rape rooms, Bush has rape stadiums.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4666797

[walldude]

6. I don't believe we can blame the rapes on Bush

Flame me if you want but the actions of individual citizens cannot be blamed on Bush.

I also find it hard to believe that 3 out of every 10 men would commit rape if they could get away with it. If it is true try to remember that the other 7 would probably shoot the rapist. We are not all bad.

[Vektor]

10. I'd gladly shoot the rapist.

In the kneecaps & abdomen and let death come slowly.

And that's a little too kind.

[sexybomber]

60. Shoot him?

Ha! I'd gut him like a fish. Very, very slowly.

[bloom]

15. Bush/FEMA/Chertoff can be blamed

because they left people there for days - in a "dark alley" with no security - the people's only choice of a place to go.

There are many things Bush/FEMA/etc. should have/could have done. So yes - I blame them - just like I would blame them if they did something like announced that all police would receive minimum wage for the next year and the police all quit - and we would have the resulting chaos.

Bush/FEMA is accountable AND responsible - for rapes, for deaths, for a lot of things. For not doing their jobs.

[skooooo]

20. Yes they are responsible...

I don't buy that, "Who could have known..???" bullshit we hear all the time from them

[walldude]

26. They are responsible for the conditions that made

it possible. No doubt. And while you and I know that makes him guilty, we are going to need to take a more level approach to sending these assholes off to prison.

[nofurylike]

106. absolutely. thank you, bloom. eom

[nofurylike]

29. firstly, it is the lack of protection that allowed the alleged rapes.

so far, there have been charges but no convictions.
that lack of protection is directly the fault of * who declared an emergency, but sent NONE of the needed, requested and rightfully expected money to La or NOLA for the mandatory evac he claims he suggested.
the mayor went ahead with mandatory evac as soon as legal channels said he could.

secondly, the polls of men about rape are not only documented, but repeated by many. that third is the low count of how many said they would rape if they could be certain they'd not get caught.

one of the problems with womyn discussing problems with men is that so many men take our grievances personally. if the charge does not apply to you, why be hypersensitive about it?
in this context, no one is talking about the men who would NOT rape even if certain they would not get caught.
i am pleased to know that you are among those who fight violence against womyn and children.
i know that many do.

thank you!


peace!

[Karenina]

53. Creating conditions where rapes

would assuredly occur served a PR purpose of demonizing ALL BLACK MEN, further catapulting the propaganda.

[nofurylike]

59. exactly!! thank you for your clarity, Karenina. eom

[SemperEadem]

57. Rape is the first weapon of choice

against women and children in any anarchal situation.

Bosnia; Liberia; Rwanda; Nanking; New Orleans.

Considering no one knows every man, to say they don't believe the numbers of men who would rape if they knew they could get away with it are that high tells me that they are rather pollyanna-ish about the ugly realities of male human nature during anarchy.

http://www.alrc.net/doc/mainfile.php/torture/151/

Sexual abuse of women during intrastate and interstate conflict has historically been a recurring phenomenon but kept as an official secret. History books have until recently counted dead and injured soldiers but never sexually violated women who were psychologically and physically injured for life. The recent list only from the 1990s is long: Bosnian Muslim women violated by Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats, Tibetan women violated by Chinese, Rwandan women violated by oth enemy men and women, East Timorese women by Indonesians, Kashmir women by Indian soldiers, to mention only a few of the intrastate and interstate conflicts. (Report of the Special Repporteur on Violence 1998).

The horrendous news of the raped women in Bosnia gave impetus for a large number of personal testimonies, books and articles in international scientific literature and media that for the first time brought to light the “Hidden horrors” (Tanaka 1996) against women in previous Sexual violence against enemy women is part of the punishment, intimidation and terrorization of a political, religious or ethnic minority, a mean for a military strategy or other State policy: A weapon of war.

[StellaBlue]

61. BINGO

War is about rape.

(Not saying it's not about other things, as well.)

[nofurylike]

63. thank you for this information and documentation, SemperEadem.

the crime of not creating safety zones, while long in possession of those FACTS, is a heinous one in which those womyn and children were used to set up a situation by which to defame blacks - again - especially black men, furthering innumerable social agendas of institutional white-supremacism.

a multilayered heinous crime.


peace!

[KitSileya]

83. Exactly!

Recently, they reissued the diary of a Berlin woman from the summer of 1945. She tells of all the rapes that were done by the Russian soldiers. Women meeting up asked how many times, not if their friends had been raped. And it wasn't just a matter of 'punishing' German women for the war, they raped Jewish women coming straight from concentration camps also.

One place where rape as weapon is happening right now is the Congo - everytime the villages change hands, the women are raped. Medecins sans Frontiers have set up clinics across the border where women can come and get gynecological attention - they're raped by 5-10 men at a time, and are all torn up as a result. Often, the married women are raped in front of their husbands and children - and often the husbands repudiate them afterwards. The men cannot handle the psychological trauma of not being able to keep their wifes safe.

[nofurylike]

134. thank you for these facts, KitSileya. it is essential that the silence,

in families, communities, government and media, be broken, or it can only get worse.


peace!

[Generic Other]

4. On Oprah now they are reporting the rape of children

the terrorizing of women in the Superdome.

[nofurylike]

30. thank you for that info, GO. devastating hearing from the survivors! eom

[Tyranny_R_US]

5. I'm a man and let me tell you....

I might be called a heartless freep for this but during a lawless situation if I caught anyone raping soiled children & babies or anyone else for that matter I will put two their head without question, these misfits don't deserve to live. If we find it acceptable to kill people looting for food... :cry:

[undergroundpanther]

7. Rapists should DIE

I wish I could invent a device that a woman or guy could wear in thier orafices that would KILL and HURT any rapist pig who cannot respect another persons body even when no one is looking..

A rapist death device that cannot be taken out and only disabled by the person who is truly consenting to sex without cocercion.

I wonder how many pigs would want to risk death for an ego trip?.

[StayOutTheBushes]

65. You remind me of Gov. Dukakis.

[undergroundpanther]

91. Why?

Did Dukakis say something about rape devices?

[StayOutTheBushes]

111. Are you serious?

:rofl:

[nofurylike]

130. yes, men have to stand up to abusive men, even though

it is at personal risk.
don't think we don't know that you are also in danger from those who prey on others.

thank you for the strength of your feelings on this.
i think it would make a difference if men put your kind of intensity into *preventing* rape.

*edit because i should have qualified that: i am against, and work hard to put a stop to, execution.


peace!

[Vektor]

8. A day or two after Katrina I posted about this very thing.

And I had to have the Moderator lock it because so many people jumped on the thread to say I was exaggerating, and accuse me of making up stories about the rapes to make the black community look bad.

Which was NOT the truth. I was lamenting how horrible it was that anyone could be so sick as to rape, and defending the VICTIMS. I don't give a goddamn what color the offender is. Any sex offender is a sick piece of shit, who I agree, fully deserves to die.

Thanks for bringing this up.

[malaise]

11. This happens in emergency centres everywhere

When you bring together large groups of strangers, there are loads of anti-social people among them. We had problems with rape in a few hurricane centres post Ivan last year. The conditions are perfect for these animals.

[Vektor]

13. So sickening.

Maybe the night I posted this people weren't ready to wrap their heads around it yet. it seems now, people are accepting that it's happening, and finally getting angry.

[bloom]

17. Seems like there was a big flamewar a couple months back...

with some people saying that sex offenders should not be allowed in emergency shelters (actually I think they were given a separate shelter from the others) - there were quite a few people (men?) who were outraged that sex offenders would be separated - treated differently, etc.

[Vektor]

18. Um, too bad.

Sorry, but sex offenders should not be let in, period. House em' all together if ya want, but seriously, my "Liberalism" ends then it comes to the way we treat violent criminals, especially sex offenders. I have been flamed before, and I don't care at all. I have no mercy for that sort, and really don't care if they aren't given shelter at all.

I cannot fathom ANYONE defending a rapist.

[StellaBlue]

38. I wholeheartedly agree

Let them rot.

The reports of rapes in the Superdome pissed me off more than anything, I think. I mean, hadn't these women been through ENOUGH already? Then to be RAPED?

I don't think most men truly understand what rape is to women. And I have been saying since I was about TWELVE that if this judicial system hadn't been set-up and is still mostly run by rich, old (white) men, rapists wouldn't be getting 2-5 years. Less time than drug dealers! WTF is WRONG with people?!?!?! Rapists, child molesters, and murderers should be locked in jail and the key thrown away. Period.

From my experience, these people are not, sadly, rehabilitatable (word?). Too bad for them, but it's not worth a single woman, child, or, hell, another man, being raped.

End of rant.

[Mnemosyne]

110. Good rant Stella, thanks. n/t

:hug:

[helderheid]

117. CASTRATE THEM.

They are the worst sort of being. Anyone who would rape, especially children, should be castrated.

[undergroundpanther]

132. Here here

Take thier precious weapon and male status symbol away.

[paula777]

9. I don't believe 30 - 35% of men would rape if they knew they wouldn't get

caught. I just don't believe that.

[Vektor]

12. One out of three women are raped in their life time. And those are only

the ones that are REPORTED.

Someone is doing it.

[Iris]

27. repeat offenders; repeat victims

[Nikia]

14. My husband believes it

As a young man who got to know lots of other young men in college. He says that is low for college age men too. He says this on the basis of conversations where other men fantasized and joked about rape. He admits that for a while, he was silent. Then he started calling them on it.
This was at a competitive private college, mostly upper middle class and white, which I only point out to people who think that this behavior is more typical of the poor and minorities.
I don't think that we want to believe that many men are like this, but it is true.

[Vektor]

16. I think upper class and white are more likely, actually.

They have a sense of entitlement that would boggle the mind, and these "frat boys" are often responsible for many date rapes. You'd be surprised how many of these "upper echelon" investment bankers to be are horribly callous abusers.

Edited to add, NO ALL WHITE MEN ARE NOT RAPISTS. So, the flaming need not even begin. Just to clarify. Thanks.

Because seriously. Sometimes you actually have to spell out the obvious or people go nuts.

[MountainLaurel]

19. That's quite on target

Because rape is a crime of power, and a sense of entitlement goes hand in hand with it.

[Vektor]

22. Very true...

Most rapists and repeat offenders are not "poor transient minorities" they are middle to upper class individuals, who quite often blend right in with society without garnering a second glance from anyone. Quite often, well to do, and pleasant looking.

[Iris]

31. or a sense of powerlessness

Face it, these guys are going to be kissing ass all their lives. No wonder they'd have rape fantasies. Women have rape fantasies for a similar reason - they control so much in their lives, they want to give up some control.

[MountainLaurel]

39. Um yeah, whatever

:rofl:

:wtf:

[Iris]

50. Right back at you. Feel free to wallow in the misery of your femaleness

for the rest of your life.

[nofurylike]

99. trash. ignorance and arrogance, get off my thread. eom

[StellaBlue]

42. Umm, yeah...

I don't know which part of that is more unbelievable...

?!?!

[Iris]

51. see above

[Cats Against Frist]

54. I agree with you, Iris

I think that this phenomenon is recognized in sexual/psychological literature. I'm not sure why all the objection. Perhaps the "yeah right" posters would care to elaborate....?

[StellaBlue]

62. Personal experience

1. As a woman, I cannot imagine any woman having rape fantasies. IMHO, rape and S&M are two different things. A 'rape' fantasy would necessarily be defined by the wish to ACTUALLY be forced into sex against your will - who would want that?!

2. Women have so much control - umm.... over what? Most women have experienced abuse from men on some level, many throughout their lives, especially up until this past century, when it was accepted to actually physically abuse one's wife or daughter as if she were livestock (not that I would abuse livestock, even). How many women are on your city council? How many women are in your police force? How many women are in your state house? How many women are on the boards of these evildoin' companies we all hate? Etc.

3. Women want to give up some control. Nobody wants to give up control. Women want more control. Women want to be safe from rapists. Women want to be able to be sheltered from a major hurricane along with their children and not fear going into the bathroom. Women want men to be held acocuntable, not treated as lifelong children who cannot control their sexual urges. Women want faithful spouses. Women want a lot of things they don't get. Giving up some control is not one of them, IMHO.

Of course, I cannot possible speak for all women, but this is my OPINION. Like some others, I found it unbelievable that anyone, especially in the context of this thread, would try to justify male sexual abuse this way, by accusing women of complicity through 'rape fantasies' and 'wanting to give up control'. I have a feeling any woman who has ever been sexually abused or raped would tend to agree with me. They may have rape NIGHTMARES, but not fantasies, IMHO.

Don't want to start a flame war on this - you asked for an elaboration to my previous post of incredulity.

[Iris]

69. .. .

1. - A fantasy is just that. Most people would not really want their ACTUAL fantasies to come true, no matter if they are sordid and sexual or fluffy and sugary sweet. Look at how many people have won the lottery only to find themselves unhappier than before they had loads of money. And yes, you are a woman, but you cannot speak for all women and their fantasies.

2. Do you even read a single thing in mainstream media? Do you know any middle class familes? Lots of women have jobs that give them a lot of power. Lots of women have a lot of power over their own husbands and children. As for my city council - well, my mayor is a woman and the majority CC members are women. I'm sorry if you don't know any women who have power. And it makes me sad for young women and girls who might not see powerful women around them, but they are out there.

There has even been some writing about the 50s and how much power women actually had - many of them being in complete charge of household finances (my grandmother was one) and having much more power than maybe they realized at the time and than we give them credit for now. I'm not saying that I necessarily agree that this was a widespread sort of thing, but I'm willing to admit a lot of women might have had more power over their situations than is being admitted to.

3. Giving up control once in a while does not mean giving up safety.

And as far as MY opinion goes. Well, first, I'll ask - how many college men do you know right now? Do you spend a lot of time on college campuses to get an idea of the group that is being disparaged here? I happen to work and serve on various boards around several colleges and universities and I refuse to sit back and let people suggest that 1 out of 3 of the male students I meet on a regular basis is or has the potential to be a rapist. Are young college men sometimes stupid and insenstive? Yes. Does that make 1 out of 3 potential rapists? No. A lot of them need to be educated, but accusing 1/3 of them of being secret rapists is not helping things.

[StellaBlue]

72. WOMEN DO NOT WANT TO BE RAPED

That was my main point. Women do not want to be raped and do not want to 'give up control' because they 'have too much control', which is what, basically, you were saying. Weird, very, very weird.

I am 26. So, yes, I know loads of college-age, and slightly-above-college-age men. Many of them I could see as potential rapists, based on their comments (what do they say when there are no women around, if they joke about rape when women ARE around?), their affiliations with racist/homophobic/sexist organizations ('frat daddies'), and their actions (love going to Hooters, have posters of surgically-altered, big-breasted women on their walls, usually making submissive, 'stick your cock in my mouth, PLEEEEASE' faces).

I am so sick of these types of 'men' that I want to :puke:.

Sorry.

I would like to think that the percentage of men who would rape is lower than that. But I just don't know... I would tend to put my trust in the university researchers, RAINN, etc. as to statistics, rather than personal opinions or other organizations that are less realistic in their understanding of what rape really means to women. Of this percentage, it seems from the statistics, many of the men are being classified as potential rapists, although they would not view themselves that way. Which may show that men and women define sexual abuse differently.

Very telling, IMO.

Also, as someone who was abused and exploited from early childhood, forgive me, but I just don't have much patience for any kind of rationalization or justification or excuses for men. They need to grow up. Just like the people in DC need to realize that the wars they perpetrate abroad also affect REAL people whose lives are DEVASTATED. Iraqi horror = NOLA horror = unnecessary death and human misery.

EDITED TO ADD: And as we are all trying to stand up to our government and the ignorant and callous among us to lessen the suffering of others, so men who are not ignorant and callous toward women need to stand up to the men I described above. This starts with not caring if their 'friends' call them 'pussy-whipped'.

This post is why I think I will probably remain single for the rest of my life.

OH, WELL.

[Iris]

73. We were talking about FANTASIES

there is a difference between fantasy and what people actually want.

It takes a lot of maturity to discern that human beings have a lot of inconsistencies in their thinking and actions.

I'm sorry your experiences have led you to be around a lot of disrespectful and disgusting men. You probably will remain single for the rest of your life if you feel this way about men. Maybe that's for the best.

[StellaBlue]

79. Well

I've been in long-term relationships. I have male relatives who are not rapists or thugs, whom I respect.

But I haven't met many men AT ALL who will stand up to the 'you're pussy-whipped' mentality of other men. And, ultimately, I don't want to make the compromises necessary for a successful partnership with someone who can't make that sacrifice for ME. Just like I wouldn't want to be with someone racist. Same thing.

[Iris]

88. I agree.

And you shouldn't be expected to. You are obviously angry about things that have happened to you in your life, and I think rightfully so.

[Cats Against Frist]

80. OK, now I see where you're coming from

And I partially agree with you, partially not. I do believe that a large percentage of men have "rape fantasies," and that a large percent of women have "rape fantasies." However, the difference is that these "rape fantasies," for both men and women are never about violent, real-life rape, but are more about conquest.

Trust me, I'm a poet, and half my manuscript, that I've been working on for three years, is about this very subject. If you can find your way to literotica.com, and look under "stories & pics," and then, under "non-consent/reluctance," you'll find a whole host of in-the-flesh rape fantasies, written by both men and women. The difference here is: in these fantasies, there is always the point where the woman stops fighting and "starts to like it." You know, "her body betrays her," etc. The bulk of the fantasies end this way, rather than the way that a real rape would end.

Think about binaries. One of the MOST pervasive binaries in our human culture is sub/dom, powerful/powerlessness, control/loss of control. It's written into our DNA, and no one can escape this rather fascinating subtext, which has plenty of mileage -- not just with sex, but with commerce, family, nations, etc. And just as people "fantasize," (it's actually called a narrative) about being powerful, they also fantasize about being powerless. Ask the pornography and sub/dom industries -- they make billions of dollars off of this narrative.

I'm not excusing men -- because, of course, no one SHOULD rape someone else, and the physical property of one's own body should be the most absolute right that we have -- I'm just pointing out fact. I think that the fingerpointing, rather than at men, should be at the media (pornography) that both glorifies and institutionalizes this imbalance -- because it does. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist -- it just means that, like many other things - when the "taboo" becomes "normalized," it becomes more likely to be acted out in real life.

And, like many people have pointed out, rape is really about power, not sex. The sexual fantasies that these people have have "the out," the "code word," if you will, that calls the game off, when actual violation becomes an issue.

I'm sorry for your experiences, too. It's an ugly fucking reality.

[StellaBlue]

81. Yeah, it is ugly

I don't actually talk about it much... like once every few YEARS. I decided early on that I wasn't going to let someone so vile define my life. That's why I am not 'open' about it, per se. I don't want it to color anyone's impression of me. I refuse to be anything but NORMAL. This person will not take that away from me. I am a responsible, everyday person. Not a victim.

But I cannot abide any excuses for this almost-exclusively MALE behavior. I also agree with you about the pornography/culture. It's just sad, sad, sad. But I think a LOT of it is biological. The problem I have is that people in 'power' don't take it seriously enough. The cultural mentality needs to change; men need to call other men out on their misogyny.

[nofurylike]

94. this is not appropriate to this thread please discuss this elsewhere. eom

[Cats Against Frist]

121. You're right

The only thing appropriate to discuss in this thread is lock-stepping, ideological identity politics and myth. .

[nofurylike]

138. this is a thread to discuss that, given the indisputable facts, not

creating safe zones for womyn and children made rape a certainty.

and that doing so in this Event - post-apocalyptic NOLA - guaranteed its use as racist propaganda.


peace

[nofurylike]

93. it is not accusation, it is by their own admission.

if it is consensual, it is not rape. period. get it?
it is not a rape fantasy, it is a sadomasochism fantasy. period.

you are very defensive.

you are dangerous. get off my thread.

[nofurylike]

92. agreed. thank you, StellaBlue. eom

[nofurylike]

68. the objections are because those deceptions and illusions are the

reason such a high number of men think the way we are describing.

that "sexual/psychological literature" is the product of male-dominated and male-defined belief systems. they have long since been debunked by womyn, and by men who are capable of learning about womyn from womyn.

there are, without question, countless psychosexually wounded womyn, who have let male-dominated psychology define their experience, but that is still an ideology perpetuating the very damage. it has served those antiquated beliefs to quote damaged womyn to further such distortions.

any man who still believes these deceptions ought to attend one of the programs for men that are described in an excellent post further down this thread. i will post that post number after i do this.


peace

[nofurylike]

71. post #46, information on The Men's Program,

>What Does The Men’s Program Do About This?

The Men’s Program has been shown to significantly decrease men’s belief in rape myths by 50% after seeing the program. (23)

75% of high risk men who see The Men’s Program report being less likely to rape immediately after, and seven months after seeing The Men’s Program. (24)

Men who see “The Men’s Program” report a statistically significant decrease in their rape myth acceptance and in their likelihood of raping immediately after and seven months after seeing the program. This decline lasts longer than that of any other program evaluated in the published research literature today. (24, 25)
>


peace

[Iris]

70. Jeez. Thanks. I was starting to think I'm living in a vacuum.

But when I did live in a vacuum, I thought more like some of the people posting on this thread.

[raccoon]

75. I strongly disagree about that.

In a rape FANTASY, a woman is in control. She controls EVERYTHING in that fantasy. In that fantasy, what is occurring is not really rape, because it is not really against her will.

In real life rape, she sure as hell ain't in control.

"they control so much in their lives" --that sure hasn't been my experience!

While some women are controlling as hell (and some men are too), generally they have less control over their lives than men do, especially more than they did just a few short decades ago.

[Iris]

76. see 69 about "a few short decades ago"

[raccoon]

77. Maybe that's how it was in your family, but it sure wasn't in mine,

" the 50s and how much power women actually had - many of them being in complete charge of household finances (my grandmother was one) and having much more power than maybe they realized at the time and than we give them credit for now."

nor was it that way with either of parents' family of origin.

I'd say cases like that were the exception to the rule.

[Iris]

87. and I agree and said so in my post.

But if you actually think women today benefit from wallowing in self-pity over something that happened decades ago, then, essentially, you are taking away the power they gain gain for themselves today.

[raccoon]

107. I didn't say THAT, and I have NO IDEA how you inferred that.

"if you actually think women today benefit from wallowing in self-pity over something that happened decades ago "

[nofurylike]

95. well said, raccoon. thank you. eom

[raccoon]

74. I agree upper class and white are more likely.

As you said, they have quite a sense of entitlement.

Before the women's movement, a lot of the general public believed that rapists were dark-skinned men and/or strangers. In those days, the phrase "date rape" didn't exist, nor did the concept, although I'm sure it occurred a lot.

I can remember when I was in sixth grade, a speaker came to talk to our class, and he said, "the girl sets the pace ." That's true for many men; for some, they're going to do whatever they want to. I think some men regard it as a contest.

Sometimes the rapists doesn't consider what he did to be rape.

And no, not all men are rapists.

[nofurylike]

34. it is vital that men call others on it, or it will not change. thanks! eom

[StellaBlue]

40. Sadly

I witnessed this type of talk among white, middle-class college males when at a large state university. IN FRONT OF ME, a WOMAN. I don't even want to know what most men talk about/do when we're not around.

Apologies to all good, decent, human-hearted men. Please show your solidarity with us. Who cares if they say you're 'pussy-whipped'? Why do you care what Neanderthals think? JOIN US!

[bribri16]

28. Include pedophila, please, that's rape too. Just think of the recent

headlines, the Catholic church, the snatched children and imagine all those that go unreported.

[nofurylike]

143. yes, providing protection for children is especially important! eom

[nofurylike]

32. dupe, sorry.

[nofurylike]

33. i'm sorry, but these stats were taken from men. that number admitted they

would.

it is a problem that we all have to work to change. but for now, that is the way it is.

but you see that is why that MUST be taken into consideration in sheltering people. it is one of Amnesty International's rules for shelters and refugee camps.


peace

[TahitiNut]

96. "college men" ... they're not (all) 'men'

"In a survey of college men, 35 percent anonymously admitted they would commit rape if they knew they could get away with it." ... citation to Kilpatrick, D.G., Edmunds, C.N. & Seymour A. 1992 Rape in America: A Report to the Nation. Arlington, VA: National Victim Center.

[nofurylike]

101. if it is even 1% of men-generally, the point still stands. eom

[misanthrope]

100. Don't you know?...

...All the world's evils are the fault of men? No woman has ever wronged humanity. And if they did, it's all still a man's fault anyway.

Despite the fact that men are R-selected and women are K-selected, society is a device dreamt and devised by men to control women, as is marriage.

Don't think for a second that all of humanity is guilty of inhumanity. Men are the singular apotheosis of evil.

[nofurylike]

102. you are very hypercritical of men. total stereotype. "all...evils"? eom

[mongo]

140. I think you're having a hard time with the concept of sarcasm

[SoCalDemocrat]

21. Lets stick with the facts

There have been no first hand reports of rapes at the super-dome or other shelters. Police have been investigating but so far can find no one to come forward and corroborate stories. That doesn't mean they didn't occur, just that it's unsubstantiated gossip at this point.

[bloom]

24. I was being skeptical

because I didn't want to fall for rumors - but there were people on Oprah's show who were staying at the Superdome who seemed to be convinced that rapes were taking place.

And the Mayor said there were rapes of babies and people wanted to get their babies out to save them from it. I don't know if he got first hand accounts or second, third or eighth or what.

[Generic Other]

25. Both the mayor and police chief of NOLA seem to believe it's true

Did you watch Oprah today?

[Tomee450]

35. There might have been rapes

but how widespread is the question for me. I say wait for the investigation.

[nofurylike]

36. the issue here is that it is enough of a certainty that there must always

be provisions made - safe zones, etc.

and that it is a crime that media - even by omission of facts before slanderous stereotypes they were obviously exploiting - implies that race is a factor, in any violence that did occur, when the one pertinent factor is the criminal lack of protection that we pay taxes to guarantee.


peace!

[StellaBlue]

44. Based on statistics and personal experience

I would say that if anywhere near 30-35% of men admitted that they would do it if they could get away with it... then when you have a total breakdown of civility and people who are on drugs, deliriously hungry, sick, confused, etc. (not that people who are hungry will commit rapes, but I am referring to the general hellishness of the situation), it is inevitable, with up to 25,000 locked together in a dark place that MANY rapes and abuses will occur.

As Oprah herself said when playing Sophia in 'The Color Purple' (and something I have thought inside my own head at least once a week ever since I saw that movie at about age 10):


A girl child just ain't safe in a world full of men.


Statistics from RAINN:
http://www.rainn.org/statisticsarc.html

[nofurylike]

48. yes. and that is the point about this having been anarchy BY the federal

government: the complete loss of protections we, as a society, have long since accepted are necessary and a human right - that our taxes PAY FOR.

any person of any awareness knows this to be true.

thank you!


peace!

[StellaBlue]

43. Dunno

I heard (and saw) several first-person of child rapes and baby rapes on Oprah today.

Close paraphrase from survivor:

"We were afraid for our kids to go to the bathroom . They had to step over dead bodies to get in there, then it was real dark and there were men waiting to rape the children when they went in to try to go to the bathroom."

Unfortunately, this is reality for ALL WOMEN. We have to fear this every day, every time we are out alone, every time a strange man stares us up and down, every time we have to walk to our car in the dark, every time we open the door to a delivery person or unexpected visitor. Every day. This just takes that every day fear and expands its horror about a million times.

[TNOE]

55. Yes - THAT is exactly what I was going to ask!

I WANT PROOF - lots of disinformation out there - to make "ordinary" citizens NOT CARE about these people!

[nofurylike]

98. the point is, if they made safe zones, they would not have cases TO

exaggerate, stereotype and exploit.

the point is that womyn and children are in danger wherever our protections break down - dark alley, corn field, packed stadium...

and the point is that the media is intentionally and defamatorily making/letting this appear to be a race problem, versus focusing on this being a male problem.


peace

[DistressedAmerican]

64. Just Read An Account Linked Here Yesterday That Was An Account By

Charmaine Neville.

She was raped herself at the Convention Center and says that she personally saw old women, young boys and young girls raped as well.

Go do some research before you start acting like this is all hype. The information is documented.

The rapes did occur. Many, many of them.

Do you really think that the police have had time or resources to "confirm" the accounts? Of course they have not.

Why are you so ready to assume this stuff did not occur unless the cops confirm it. This was total anarchy.

I'll see if I can find that article I was reading yesterday...

ON EDIT: The Link And Some Snips

http://2theadvocate.com/stories/090405/new_soul001.shtml

"Just back from a visit to Our Lady of the Lake Regional Medical Center on Saturday afternoon, Neville was cut, bruised and a little despondent. Among the horrible things she'd seen last week, she said, was the rape of old women, girls and boys."

"Neville said that she, too, was raped during those chaotic days. "What he took from me was nothing, because he can't take my spirit, he can't take my soul. My soul is New Orleans."

[MrSlayer]

23. 35% seemed a bit high at first....

But after considering it, I'd say it's probably accurate. If there was suddenly no law in this country I think society would revert back to Old West conditions or worse overnight and unfortunately that would include a tremendous amount of rape. The good news is a large percentage of the rest of us normal guys would be defending the virtue of women against such vermin and there are a lot of women these days who would be taking care of business on their own. Personally, I would expand the death penalty to include violent rapists.

[StellaBlue]

37. I, too, have been thinking about this

Wondering what % of men would rape if they could get away with it... having read some studies about this several years ago and being shocked... but, then, thinking about it and how many women I've known in my life who were raped/abused/etc... not surprised.

:(

[Triana]

41. Yet WOMEN are the ones touted as being 'dangerous'....

...because of PMS. I don't see any men hiding from *US* or fearing women on the streets or in dark alleys though. It's quite the other way around. Funny how we're demonized like that when we're most often the victims, and not the perps of violent crimes.

[StellaBlue]

45. Statistics?

I wonder if we can find some statistics, a gendered breakdown of all violent crimes. I would bet that a VERY small number of sexual abusers, serial murderers, etc. are women. Some, certainly, but it would be overwhelmingly men.

Why is this so?

[StellaBlue]

46. Statistics

From http://www.gmu.edu/facstaff/sexual/ffcollege.html

George Mason University


"Koss and others, using data from a large, nationally representative sample of college and university students, found that 25% of the male respondents had been involved in some form of sexual assault since age 14."

"Muehlenhard has conducted a number of interesting studies that examine the prevalence of sexual assault among college students in relation to a variety of predisposing factors. In one study, 57% of the men admitted to perpetrating sexual assault, with 51% reporting an incident during college."

"Koss and Dinero found a relationship between the degree of sexual assault and the perpetrator's use of violent and degrading pornography or involvement in peer groups that rein- forced views of women as highly sexualized objects. Fraternities have often been used as an example of a highly intensive male peer environment that reinforces such rape-supportive attitudes and behaviors. Martin and Hummer advanced this hypothesis in an article on fraternities and campus rape, noting the likelihood of sexual abuse in an environment that promotes narrow, stereo- typical conceptions of masculinity, encourages use of alcohol to overcome women's sexual reluctance, and emphasizes violence, force, and competition in relationships."


And, very interestigly:
"Similar results were obtained in another study in which 14% of the male students reported having been forced to have intercourse against their will, and 17% that they had been pressured to have sexual contact when they did not desire it."

I wonder what % of the perpetrators of the above were female. :shrug:

[mongo]

147. I find it interesting that you chose to include this snip

"Koss and Dinero found a relationship between the degree of sexual assault and the perpetrator's use of violent and degrading pornography or involvement in peer groups that rein- forced views of women as highly sexualized objects...

But not these from the same site:

Alcohol and other drug use: Alcohol or other drug use is frequently associated with sexual assaults on college campuses. In one study,frequent use of alcohol and other drugs was associated with more serious incidents of sexual assault and was one of the four strongest predictors of rape among college women......

Victim-perpetrator relationship: Another situational variable is the perpetrator's relationship to the victim. In one study, most incidents of sexual assault in college occurred between men and women who had known each other for at least a year. In another study, 42% of victims had sex with their perpetrator at a later time. These studies contradict the belief that sexual assault commonly occurs among strangers rather than among individuals in a more ongoing relationship...

Oh - I forgot. The plural of anecdote is data... :sarcasm:

[StellaBlue]

47. Wider rape statistics

Sorry, this is a downloadable wordpad file, not from HTML.

But I got it from the University of Virginia website, and it's footnoted.



Sexual Assault Statistics
John D. Foubert, Ph.D.

How Often Does Rape Happen to Women?

One in Four college women report surviving rape (15%) or attempted rape (12%) since their fourteenth birthday. (1)

In a study by the U.S. Centers for Disease control of 5,000 college students at over 100 colleges, 20% of women answered “yes” to the question “In your lifetime have you been forced to submit to sexual intercourse against your will?” Thus, one in five college women has been raped at some point in her lifetime. (2)

In a typical academic year, 3% of college women report surviving rape or attempted rape. This does not include the summer, when many more rapes occur. (3)

In the year 2000, 246,000 women survived rape and sexual assault. This computes to 28 women every hour. (4)

A survey of high school students found that one in five had experienced forced sex (rape). Half of these girls told no one about the incident. (5)

Rape is common worldwide, with relatively similar rates of incidence across countries, with 19%-28% of college women reporting rape or attempted rape in several countries. In many countries, survivors are treated far worse than in the U.S. (6)

Are Men Raped?

3% of college men report surviving rape or attempted rape as a child or adult. (3)

In a study by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control of 5,000 college students at over 100 colleges, 4% of men answered “yes” to the question “In your lifetime have you been forced to submit to sexual intercourse against your will?” (2)

Who Are The Perpetrators?

99% of people who rape are men, 60% are Caucasian. (7)

Between 62% (4) and 84% (1) of survivors knew their attacker.

8% of men admit committing acts that meet the legal definition of rape or attempted rape. Of these men who committed rape, 84% said that what they did was definitely not rape. (1)

More than one in five men report “becoming so sexually aroused that they could not stop themselves from having sex, even though the woman did not consent.” (8)

35% of men report at least some degree of likelihood of raping if they could be assured they wouldn’t be caught or punished. (9)

One out of every 500 college students is infected with HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. (10)

First-year students in college tend to believe more rape myths than seniors. (11)

Sexual assault offenders were substantially more likely than any other category of violent criminal to report experiencing physical or sexual abuse as children. (7)

In one study, 98% of men who raped boys reported that they were heterosexual. (12)

Who Are The Survivors?

41% of college women who are raped were virgins at the time. (1)

42% of rape survivors told no one about the rape. (1)

41% of women who are raped expect to be raped again. (1)

False reports of rape are rare, according to the FBI, occurring only 8% of the time. (13)

Females aged 16-19 are four times more likely than the general population to be victims of rape, attempted rape, or sexual assault. (4)

Rape survivors report defining their experience in many different ways. ¼ define it as rape, ¼ think it was a crime but did not know it was rape, ¼ believe it was serious sexual abuse but did not know it was a crime, and ¼ report not feeling victimized by the experience. (14)

Circumstances of Rape.

57% of rapes happen on dates. (1)

75% of the men and 55% of the women involved in acquaintance rapes were drinking or taking drugs just before the attack. (1)

About 70% of sexual assault survivors reported that they took some form of self-protective action during the crime. The most common technique was to resist by struggling or chase and try to hold the attacker. Of those survivors who took protective action, over half believed it helped the situation, about 1/5 believed that it made the situation worse or simultaneously worse and better. (7)

84% of rape survivors tried unsuccessfully to reason with the man who raped her. (1)

55% of gang rapes on college campuses are committed by fraternities, 40% by sports teams, and 5% by others. (15)

Approximately 40% of sexual assaults take place in the survivor’s home. About 20% occur in the home of a friend, neighbor, or relative. 10% occur outside, away from home. About 8% take place in parking garages. (7)

More than half of all rape and sexual assault incidents occurred within one mile of the survivor’s home or in her home. (7)




What Happens After the Rape?

In a study done in the 1980s, 5% of rape survivors went to the police. (1) Throughout the last 10 years, the National Crime Victimization Survey has reported that approximately 30% of rape survivors report the incident to the police. (4)

Of those rapes reported to the police (which is 1/3 or less to begin with), only 16% result in prison sentences. Therefore, approximately 5% of the time, a man who rapes ends up in prison, 95% of the time he does not. (4)

42% of rape survivors had sex again with the rapist. (1)

30% of rape survivors contemplate suicide after the rape. (1)

82% of rape survivors say the rape permanently changed them. (1)

The adult pregnancy rate associated with rape is estimated to be 4.7%. (17)

Non-genital physical injuries occur in approximately 40% of rape cases. (18)

Rape survivors often experience long-term symptoms of chronic headaches, fatigue, sleep disturbance, recurrent nausea. (19)

Rape survivors often experience eating disorders and make suicide attempts after being raped. In addition, after being raped, survivors are 2 ½ times more likely than the average woman to have a substance abuse problem. (20, 21, 22)

What Does The Men’s Program Do About This?

The Men’s Program has been shown to significantly decrease men’s belief in rape myths by 50% after seeing the program. (23)

75% of high risk men who see The Men’s Program report being less likely to rape immediately after, and seven months after seeing The Men’s Program. (24)

Men who see “The Men’s Program” report a statistically significant decrease in their rape myth acceptance and in their likelihood of raping immediately after and seven months after seeing the program. This decline lasts longer than that of any other program evaluated in the published research literature today. (24, 25)

References

Warshaw, R. (1994). I never called it rape. New York: HarperCollins Publishers.
Douglas, K. A. et al. (1997). Results from the 1995 national college health risk behavior survey. Journal of American College Health, 46, 55-66.
Tjaden, P. & Thoennes, N. (1998). Prevalence, incidence, and consequences of violence against women: Findings from the national violence against women survey, 2-5, Research in Brief, Washington, DC: National Institute of Justice, US Department of Justice.
Rennison, C. M. (2001). National crime victimization survey, criminal victimization 2000: Changes 1999-2000 with trends 1993-2000, Washington, DC: U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, NCJ 187007
Davis, T.C, Peck G. Q., Storment, J. M. (1993). Acquaintance rape and the high school student. Journal of Adolescent Health, 14, 220-224.
Koss, M.P., Hiese, L. and Russo, N.F. (1994). The global health burden of rape. Psychology of Women Quarterly, 18, 509-537.
Greenfeld, L.A. (1997). Sex offenses and offenders: An analysis of data on rape and sexual assault, Washington DC: U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics.
Peterson, S.A. and Franzese, B. (1987). Correlates of college men’s sexual abuse of women. Journal of College Student Personnel, 28, 223-228.
Malamuth, N. M. (1981). Rape proclivity among males. Journal of Social Issues, 37, 138-157.
National Center for Injury Prevention and Control. Rape fact sheet. Atlanta: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.
Gray, N.B., Palileo, G.J., and Johnson, G.D. (1993). Explaining rape victim blame: A test of attribution theory. Sociological Spectrum, 13, 377-392.
Sexual Abuse of Boys, Journal of the American Medical Association, December 2, 1998.
Federal Bureau of Investigation. (1995) Uniform crime reports. Washington, D.C.: United States Department of Justice.
Koss, M. (1992). Rape on campus: Facts and measures. Planning for Higher Education, 20, 21-28.
O’Sullivan, C. (1991). Acquaintance gang rape on campus. In A. Parrot and L. Bechhofer (Eds.) Acquaintance rape: The hidden crime. New York: John Wiley and Sons. 140-156.
Kilpatrick, D. G., Edmunds, C.N. and Seymour, A.K. (1992) Rape in America: A report to the nation. National Victim Center.
Homes, M. M., Resnick, H.S., Kilpatrick, D. G. and Best, C. L. (1996). Rape related pregnancy: Estimates and descriptive characteristics from a national sample of women. American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology, 175, 320-324.
Koss, M.P. and Heslet, L. (1992). Somatic consequences of violence against women. Archives of Family Medicine, 1, 53-59.
Eby, K. K., Campbell, J.C., Sullivan, C.M., and Davidson, W.S. (1995). Health effects of experiences of sexual violence for women with abusive partners. Health Care for Women International. 16 (6), 563-576.
Kilpatrick, D.G., Best, C.L., Veronen, L.J., Amick, A.E., Villeponteaux, L.A. and Ruff, G.A. (1985). Mental health correlates of criminal victimization: A random community survey. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 53 (6) 866-873.
Resnick, H.S., Acierno, R., and Kilpatrick, D.G. (1997). Health impact of interpersonal violence 2: Medical and mental health outcomes. Behavioral Medicine, 23, 65-78.
Kilpatrick, D.G., Acierno, R., Resnick, H.S., Saunders, B. E., and Best, C.L. (1997). A 2-year longitudinal analysis of the relationships between violent assault and substance use in women. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 65(5), 834-847.
Foubert, J.D. and Marriott, K.A. (1997). Effects of a sexual assault peer education program on men’s belief in rape myths. Sex Roles, 36, 259-268.
Foubert, J.D. (2000). The longitudinal effects of a rape-prevention program on fraternity men’s attitudes, behavioral intent, and behavior. The Journal of American College Health, 48, 158-163.
Schewe, P. A. (1999). Guidelines for developing rape-prevention and risk-reduction interventions: Lessons from evaluation research. Paper presented to the Illinois Coalition Against Sexual Assault.

[nofurylike]

49. thank you for this massive amount of information! so much there! eom

[Karenina]

52. Kick!

:kick:

[Catherine Vincent]

56. Amy Goodman reported on Pacifica Radio today that

so far no one has come forward to report any rape at the Superdome or the Convention Center at any of the shelters.

[nofurylike]

58. thank you for that information. can you please find more on that?

i do not know enough details to disagree, and i will look for more info. but there have been men actually charged, who are now being held on those charges. they may be false charges, but that does strongly suggest that someone reported/charged them.

all told, this thread is actually about the lack of safety provisions to protect womyn and children, a need recognized by all people of any consciousness.


peace!

[DistressedAmerican]

66. There Is No Functioning Police Force Right Now. And Folks Are Evacuated

Of course no one has been in to their local police station to report crimes they experienced or saw.

How could they? Where would they report it?

Maybe they could phone it in from their plane from the Astrodome to the undisclosed location they are being taken to?

Lack of police reports is in no way evidence that these vile crimes did not occur (not that you were necessarily arguing that).

Most will never be reported and of those very few if any will be caught and prosecuted. But, these posts about the police have not confirmed this or that allegation are to be expected given the conditions "on the ground" right now.

[StellaBlue]

67. Yep

And I don't think, if people start reporting rapes once at the Astrodome or wherever, that it will be reported by the MSM.

They don't normally try to make any difference on this issue. I don't think it will be such a race card thing now that it's no longer immediate, and they don't have any new footage of 'wild blacks on the loose' to show. I think it will just fade away. Hopefully Oprah or someone else who has compassion and a big bully pulpit will keep this issue in the public eye. Oprah herself, remember, is a victim of sexual abuse and was raped age age 14, I believe.

:(

[jmm]

78. I saw a woman on the news a few days ago

that said she broke both of her ankles trying to escape a rapist in a parking lot near the Superdome. A quick google search shows numerous rapes and attempted rapes but it's not like they're in an ideal situation to report it.

[Hello_Kitty]

82. I'm having a problem believing that 1000s of people

Would stand by and watch women and girls be raped in a crowded stadium, regardless of the horrid conditions. Rapists are cowards. They commit their acts in situations where they are likely to get away with it. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, I'm just very skeptical.

[KitSileya]

84. Do remember that the superdome was without light

Without power, the superdome was dark both night and day, except for the little light let in by the holes in the roof wrought by Katrina. For example, the restrooms I'm sure were pitch black.

Also, as reported further up in the thread, Charmaine Neville has told she was raped in the superdome, and also saw old women and young boys and girls be raped.

Two of the cops who were in the superdome told that while they had a badge and a gun, they didn't really have any authority - they didn't have that many bullets. Armed civilians had more power inside, I'm sure.

[DistressedAmerican]

86. I Heard Of Two Cases At The Center Where Rapists Were Caught And Killed

on the spot by angry crowds. In one case ten guys reportedly beat the guy to death. This was far less reported. But the crowd DID intervene on several documented occasions.

In other cases, they dragged their victims into hidden places and raped/killed them and walked on out with no one the wiser. Hard to kill a rapist you do not catch.

[noshenanigans]

85. The CEO pres

You know, since they're running the country like a (horrible, mangled) corporation, can we sue because they created a Hostile Living Environment?

:grr:

[nofurylike]

103. it's an idea. businesses and schools are sued for that. eom

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[undergroundpanther]

90. And yes I am pissed off

If a man is not using his dick like a weapon and he is able to control himself and have empathy for others as to not engage in the sick mysgynistic culture around him,,than I think he is a worthwile man to trust with his own penis..

If swaggering guys don't like what I say about men,I don't care,Because I will not be told to back down on what my own truth is.Just because you have never felt the way a woman feels in this sick rape culture does not mean it isn't a true situation for her...and true for the culture,that we all participaste in.

[nofurylike]

104. well said, undergroundpanther! again you are an inspiration. thank you

for your self-respect, directness and strength.

be well


peace!

[mongo]

149. You find blatent misandry inspiring?

wow.

[nofurylike]

154. those were facts and feelings. learn from them, or not. eom

[mongo]

160. So saying "I wish all men would get castrated" isn't misandrist? n/t

[lukasahero]

166. Calling you out on your misrepresentation of the facts - AGAIN

The post you are referring to is #89. The words were "Sometimes I wish..." with a full explanation as to why.

Calling you out on your lies is getting boring - it's a bit too easy.

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nofurylike]

105. lol

[DistressedAmerican]

108. Your Calling The OP "Hon" Betrays Your Lack Of Respect For Women/Womyn

Could your using that word be any more condescending?

You lost me at hello.

Not that the rest of your post is not completely messed up to boot!

I am sorry for the painful experiences you have had that have turned you into a feminist hater...

[undergroundpanther]

113. Men who can't respect a woman as an equal

Are wannabe rapists.I say rip it off!

[Must_B_Free]

114. Not true! Ever heard of Baltimore?

Everyone calls everyone "Hon" in Baltimore and I've lived there, and I've eaten the pickled eggs, green and purple.

here's your reference for proof:

Hey HON! The Bawlamerese Lexicon
The Lexicon of Bawlamerese...or How to speak in Baltimore.
www.baltimorehon.com/

Hon...The Universal Name...Like Sir, Ms...interchangeable with any name

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Must_B_Free]

129. You forgot "Have a nice day!"

[atommom]

109. Doggone it, why do these gals get so worked up just 'cause

somebody rapes them?

:puke:

You need to get a sense of perspective, Hon.

[Must_B_Free]

115. Suffering does not give one the right to abuse others.

[undergroundpanther]

123. No I don't abuse anyone who isn't abusive

But if someone IS abusive.. I don't play games with them or offer pity to people who don't warrent any either. I make sure thier agression is countered, not excused or tolerated I make sure my message is unambigous.If my messgae is harsh well rape is harsh and rape like abuse is always a choice..Self defense against abusers in a rape culture is not a choice it's a nescessity.

[Must_B_Free]

118. Your strawman is awfully thin....

any other ways you'd like to attack me for stating that people should be judged as individuals?

[atommom]

120. I don't want to attack you, but the tone of the post seemed

condescending to me, and given what these women have been through ... I blew my stack. No, I don't hate men, or think anyone else should hate all men. But it's also not fair to diagnose other posters as man-hating women (however they spell it) based on posts in such an emotional thread, regarding such an emotional topic. You know, all of our nerves are wearing thin.

[nofurylike]

151. :) well said. thank you, atommom. eom

[undergroundpanther]

112. Look

I am living with a guy. He respects me I respect him He ASKES if I want it. He doesent PUSH and ASSUME.

I don't hate men... BUt I hate SEXISTS.sexist arrogant makes and sexist enabler women.

Are you a mysogynist?

Then don't even come NEAR me boy, I'll rip it off and cram it up your ASS.
I don't carte what you think of me.RApists need to DIE!.

[Must_B_Free]

116. Does stating that not all men are rapists make one a misogynist?

I don't think so.

I think you've done a good job of rhetorically defeating yourself, so I'll sign off here...

[undergroundpanther]

124. Well men rape

Why do 1 in 4 women get raped,why do little boys and girs get raped too?

Why do men rape? Domination choice they think they can get away with it,selfishness.

There is NO REASON to rape anytone~Ever. No rationale to excuse violation of anothers CONSENT.


And why shouldn't people HATE rapists and seek to disarm them and destroy a culture that tolerates rape.? Hmmmm?.

[Must_B_Free]

137. Why?

Physiologically, it is probably related the same reason that most hookers are women.

Many men are able to be manipulated by sex, do you think that that means that women are manipulative? I don't...

I don't support rape, I don't know if rapists and child molesters can be cured, but you do the killing yourself if that is what you want, I don't condone it any more than I condone rape. As they say, an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

Try to cure yourself; you have exhibited the mentality of someone who is "seeing red". Let go of it and learn to accept people for who they are on an individual basis - you'll be healthier for it. Stereotypes are for unnuanced thinkers like George W. Bush and Fred Phelps.

[undergroundpanther]

144. I am anti rape

and I hate rape. I wish there were NO rapists.I wish rape was seen as an unthinkable morally repugnant act that to even fantasize about makes the imaginer feel sick. But as long as people defend a rapists choice to rape people I will be there to condem that choice in very militant terms. If this makes moerates tweak I think they need to look at thier own moral relatavism on such a awful and malignant and common problem and realise they are doing nothing to stop rape.

And I see people as individuals..But when rape is involved I cannot excuse it. Rape is the kind of evil choice that makes a person not worthy of being called human in my eyes because rape is radically evil.. That is why I am militant.I hate abusers rapists bullies sociopaths.They cause untold suffering to people. Rape is worse than death. Pedophilia is worse than death. Have YOU ever faced rape trauma because someone chose to rape you?

If not,
than it looks like you are not showing me or other people hurt by rape and people upset by rape the kind of empathy that says to me you understand where I am coming from and why I feel this way. You are minimizing my experinces to psychoanalyse my radical revulsion to an evil act. Rape is something you do not comprimise over..
And I am not going to excuse it.

[nofurylike]

150. "rhetorically defeating yourself"="all men." no one here said

"all men are rapists."


peace

[Name removed]

152. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lukasahero]

162. Care to document that accusation?

"your words follow:

I wish all men would get castrated."

Never mind, I found it and, not surprisingly, you have misrepresented what was said once again. Post #89 "Sometimes I wish all men would get castrated."

Why do you continue to do this when your lies and misrepresentations can be so easily exposed?

[madeline_con]

119. Now tell me FL laws to keep sex offenders OUT of shelters are...

unfair.

Go ahead, Flamers!

[undergroundpanther]

126. Sex offenders should die

Because they are scumbags,bullies and unable to leave people who do not want them ALONE.They are assholes who force people to do sex they do not want,and take thier sexuality and abuse it by dominating them and overpowering them..Kill the sex offenders.They stopped being human when they refused to stop forcing sex on another person who did not want it.
Sex offenders cannot exist among people without harming people. Sex offenders do thier shit only when they think they will get away with it..They KNOW it is wrong. But choose to do it anyway.There is no excuse for rape,rape is a CHOICE..Off with thier dicks!

[nofurylike]

156. i see your point. still, safe zones would still be needed. eom

[undergroundpanther]

158. I agree

But we can't let the offenders defend the zones.

[maxsolomon]

125. This is a fucked up thread

please let it sink

[undergroundpanther]

128. Why?

Does it make men uncomfortable?

Well they should be. Rape is a choice some men make that hurts women and kids. It is wrong.And some men who like domination will minimize how evil it is because they are NOT a woman or a child and will not live in fear because of thier social position.So thier woman degrading,minimizing opinions are so self serving.If this bothers you wy not speak out against men that make mysgynist hate at women and treat them like an object to be exploited.

[Matariki]

127. you would probably make a better case

if you spelled 'women' correctly and didn't use phrases like 'male-dominated media'. more likely than not, it makes people tune you out without hearing whatever your valid points might be.

speaking of points, some of yours strike me as sexist. you obviously have some issues you ought to work out. stating that most men are rapists at heart is rather offensive.

<quote>
"what is gagging so many men about this is that they are having such a glaring look at what we womyn are aware of every minute. do not go into dark alleys. we know for fact that we are 'fair game' wherever men are certain they can get away with raping us."

[undergroundpanther]

131. She can spell woman any way she likes

I spell woman woman and I am militant..what's your point over spelling..

The Concept that rape is wrong is the BIG point. The point men routinely objectify ,minimnize and deny the harm of rape is a BIG point too, The objectification of women by male run cultures is another point that needs to be HONESTLY looked at.. Rape and rape mentality: IT's WRONG and that is the BIGGEST point..Who gives a rats ass over how woman is spelt.Talk about obscuring the point with controlling petty bullshit.Sheesh.

[Matariki]

133. because it marginalizes her message

and the only people that will see past the spelling are people that already think like her.

[Matariki]

135. do you also believe that most men are rapists at heart?

if so, perhaps you both should take some martial arts training to get yourselves out of your victim mentality and some counseling to deal with your anger at half the worlds population.

[undergroundpanther]

139. No not all men are rapists..

I think rapists are rapists at heart..and SOME men are rapists,either actual rapists or rapists by proxy,wwho rationalize and minimize the horror of rape and blame victims.. I can defend myself against attacks fine thank you and yes I was a rape victim..and one attempt left the male in alot of pain with a dick that I suspect will never rise again. And I can be as militant feminist as I wanna be... because rape is not the kind of social issue that is sane to comprimise ones morality over and be "moderate" about.

Rape ruins lives.It harms people. It causes trauma.RAPE IS A CHOICE.The raping male gets his dick off and gets a secret power trip.

The rape victim has to suffer for years after rape and her capacity for trust is harmed, and her relationships suffer.Even worse rape can spread STDs like AIDS and can result in pregnancy,the rapist PIG will not have to deal with ANY of this shit.The worst he gets is jail time. The woman is torn apart in court humiliated blamed if she takes it to court The prosecuter tears up her traumas and makes her humiliated so she will mess up her defense on purpose..This issue is a deep and sick cultural inequality that rape reinforces and it is morally wrong..

[nofurylike]

164. i think you might read the thread minus your defensiveness.

no need to, but a suggestion.


peace

[nofurylike]

161. from that you hear: "most men are rapists at heart"? then the

problem is yours.


peace

[undergroundpanther]

136. Hellooo?

And in an argument like this over the RAPE mentality some men and our culture has,to pull the Baltimore Hon out of your ass now is a LAME excuse for EXTREME insensitivity.
It IS insensitive to call a female"Hon" when in a discussion about rape and someone pulls the Hon and pretends it was all in good fun..Yeah right Balmer has TONS of other expressions you couuld have chosen why did you choose the one that was guarunteed to appear sexist?.
And A HON is a weoman from a poor uncultured area prone to beehives tacky dress and additudes. Yep Me thinks it is a not so veiled insult.
And BTW I AM from Baltimore.Must be free...

[Must_B_Free]

141. Oh OK...

"Hon" is an insult to women, but "womyn" is not an insult to men, I get it now...

[undergroundpanther]

145. Men who will not let women

spell woman the way they choose is insulting.It's NOT your gender why should you CARE so damn much how someone else spells it?

Tying to DISTRACT the converstation from the MALE problem of RAPE?

[the_spectator]

142. That corn fields story makes no sense:

I understand your concern about rape and about men, which is a fair concern. But this part at least did throw me:

in one nearby lily-white town, it was understood by all that if a man wanted to coerce sex from a womon, all he had to do was threaten to drop her off "down in the corn fields," where packs of men knew to go to find easy rape victims. the rural dark alley.

I could maybe see men coercing sex by threatening to take a woman down to the cornfields to rape her, but not cocercing sex by threatening to just drop her off down there (because supposedly enough women refused to have sex enough times that the cornfields would be known as easy places to find abandoned women and so "packs of men" would sort of hang around down there to rape them.) That makes no sense.

(Others have brought up the spelling-of-women point. In many places, you do write "womyn" which is perfectly acceptable. I've even seen "wimmin" in other places. But STAY AWAY from "womon." It sounds like the kind of thing that would show up in a Japanese monster flick -- maybe "Godzilla vs. Womon")

[undergroundpanther]

146. Woman

Womon.. Hmm sounds like a monster that would castrate monsters to you, you say? Well I guess I'll use it around YOU than,..WOMON!!

[undergroundpanther]

148. Let me spell it out for you

in one nearby lily-white town, it was understood by all that if a man wanted to coerce sex from a womon, all he had to do was threaten to drop her off "down in the corn fields," where packs of men knew to go to find easy rape victims. the rural dark alley.


I could maybe see men coercing sex by threatening to take a woman down to the cornfields to rape her, but not coercing sex by threatening to just drop her off down there (because supposedly enough women refused to have sex enough times that the cornfields would be known as easy places to find abandoned women and so "packs of men" would sort of hang around down there to rape them.) That makes no sense.

Yes it does

Men who LIKE to rape do know exactly the kinds of secluded places where they can GET AWAY with rape are.
So in this article they used the cornfields to rape,because there is where the screams will not be heard and THEY will get away with rape.

The rapists choose a place where they will GET AWAY with it DELIBERATELY. The Womon feels fear by knowing the stories from her friends who also fear the cornfields because they found out other womon got raped there.Womon DO watch out for each other's safety.. Men rapists look out for prime get away with rape places.

The rapist men threaten the womon with abandonment at the cornfields because the rapists know they can get away with rape in the corn fields.. So if rapists raped in the field and got away with it before and the rapist who is threatening a womon knows other rapists have the desire to rape too and there is a place to get away with rape they will use it as a coercion tool gang rape place. So the threat carries coercive fear for the womon.

But I think you knew this already and were just playing ignorant to be inflammatory. Plausible deni-ability is a bullies best friend ain't it?

[the_spectator]

153. Thanks for the response, but no, my corn fields point was sincere.

And it is only a minor point. And I appreciate your attempt to explain the story. But I still feel that it is more likely just that men would use the cornfields as a place to take women (or threaten to take women) for them THEMSELVES to rape. The "packs of men" story just sounds implausible to me. For one thing, women would have to be dropped off on such an abundant and regular basis for these "packs of men" to start to hang around down there, just waiting for a fellow-male to be both misogynistic and altruistic enough to drop off women in the fields for the packs to get at!

[undergroundpanther]

157. Well

Have you ever seen bully gangs ? Like a bunch of Boys in neighborhoods who gather together and pick on people,and get in trouble? Or In school when a bully that gives hell to the "geeks" along with his pack of"freinds" who are loyal to him? Freinds who will not say the bully is wrong and go along with him lest they be scapegoated?

In my neighborhood(at that time it was rural) there was a bully gang of teen/young adult boys who together terrorized my neighborhood for"amusement". THey were assholes. They picked on the girls and younger boys humiliating,threatening,beating and yes raping.The boys will be boys saying is aboiut this problem.And frankly I am sick of the boys will be boys mentality because boys do NOT have to be bullies to younger kids or girls or some scapegoat to be boys.

Bullies cluster together,it's the same kinda birds of a feather thing. Sociopathic kids like to have a posse around them,a posse is thier "culture" that excuses their abuses and rationalizes it for the bully.Bullies cannot get away with thier shit if they do not create a culture that rationalizes thier abusive ways and excuses and normalizes it.

And I am glad you were being sincere I was suspicious of you.. because some people on this thread are not sincere in thier sarcastic comments to me..I get really sick of rape apologists.These apologists are a common problem.

[the_spectator]

165. I share your concern with bullies and their gangs, which is a male problem

I don't doubt at all anything you said in this post. I don't think we (yes I am one) men are necessarily naturally all violent aggressors, but at this point it IS true that many men are, and even more men glorify that attitude. And you got it perfectly when you blame culture as well. I think contemporary culture encourages this. I also think that a LOT of it these days, unfortunately, comes not just from old-style male chauvinism, but from new impulses that these days often run just as strongly through supposedly progressive or up-to-the-minute people as through hide-bound conservatives.

And you know, cultural support for male aggression hurts men too. I'm amazed how often EVEN on DU you find people who like to joke about institutionalized rape in prisons, and seem to believe that it is right and acceptable - that it is and should be part of the punishment, when in reality it is cruel, unusual, inhuman and unconstitutional punishment that often amounts to a delayed death sentence.

[nofurylike]

168. the corn field is the dark alley. substitute it, you'll get it.

point: amnesty international has its rule because it is inevitable that womyn and children are raped in anarchic states.

anarchy such as that 'our' federal government left nola womyn and children in.

point: it served a racist agenda


peace

[LincolnMcGrath]

155. WOW! An "all men are rapists" thread on DU?

Who woulda thunk it? :eyes:

[undergroundpanther]

159. All rapists are rapists

And rapists are men..

Not ALL men are rapists.
Feel better?

Now can we get past your defenseiveness over this..and talk about the problem of rape and the sick culture of rape and how to put an END to it?

[Generic Other]

163. 3, 700,000 hits for Rape "porn" on Google

OP cited studies that said "30-35% percent of men" would if they could get away with it.

1 out of 3 women have been sexually molested or raped.

This is not about women hating men. It's about men hating women.

The question at hand is whether this is deviant behavior or the norm.

[LincolnMcGrath]

167. Google Results 1 - 10 of about 2,870,000 for women raping men porn

[The Magistrate]

169. Locking

This has become a flame-war.