cLass or race

[sniffa]

pLease post your answer here. no need to expLain, one word wiLL suffice.

[etherealtruth]

1. CLASS

[auburngrad82]

2. class

[DemocratSinceBirth]

4. class

[Mass]

3. class

[sniffa]

5. keep 'em coming

[boston bean]

6. Both

[sniffa]

7. better choice

;)

[Jamison]

8. Class

[acmejack]

9. All the above!

[lonestarnot]

10. Both easy targets for exploitation and bushitler only knows the easy stuff

[tnlefty]

11. Both.

But, I do think that race is a large part of this. Do you think that the mood of the nation would be different if a disaster occurred in a predominantly poor, white area?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. Go Into Any Trailer Park And See If Poor Whites Are Neglected

nt

[etherealtruth]

23. No, I really don't ...

I do NOT deny racism in this country; in answer to your question I really believe that the fed's would have reacted (more accurately, NOT reacted)the same way ... over the last (how many years) we, as a country, have vilified the poor ...

I do think the citizens of this country demanded action and went into action themselves in face of FEMA and the federal government's paralysis.

[Karenina]

40. Road apples.

[Iris]

75. "as a country, have vilified the poor ... " - this says it all. n/t

[Saphire]

12. class

[Roland99]

13. Class

Although, there are plenty of victims of the storm that weren't below poverty.

[anarch]

14. yes

[The Stranger]

15. Race.

This didn't happen in the Midwest or the North -- it happened in the Deep South, where there is simply too much history, in a city that is 62% African American as a result of "White Flight." The images were not of poor, but of "Black People" beamed into the living rooms of America.

[Bill McBlueState]

16. race

[Barack_America]

18. Is there much of a difference? Both are a factor here...

It was class that kept them in the city to begin with...

But I do believe that race probably played a role in the speed of the relief efforts. This was a disaster that primarily affected Blacks, who just happen to be underrepresented in our government...

[Solomon]

19. Frankly, I'm quite sick to death of people using the class excuse.

There was a substantial poor white population in New Orleans, but they are not reflected in the statistics. If one third of the poor in NO is white, then statistically one third of the "refugees" should be white.

I guess they must have either drowned in the flood, or they were "smarter" and got out.

[sniffa]

21. me too

this thread was started so i couLd hopefuLLy get a head count of 'gets it' and who doesn't.

[etherealtruth]

29. The Demographics of N.O. do not reflect the conclusion reached in #19

If roughly 30% of the population of N.O. was white (approximately true, simplified to illustrate) and 1/3 of these white people were poor ... then about 10% of the people forced to remain in the city would be white (this is over simplified) but far more accurate than stating that 1/3 of those "left behind."

Perhaps I "get" a different point than you ... what I get is that a disproportionate percentage of African Americans have been negatively impacted by the Chimp's economic policies ... with out doubt that is racism, which put them into the lowest socio economic "classes"

In the aftermath of Katrina... the fed's didn't act to help anyone, they stood back dazed and confused----causing much more pain suffering and loss of life to the poor and frail. There are MANY very poor people in rural Mississippi not receiving help ... Had this occurred in poor white Appalachia I don't see the fed's getting too worked up either.

Check the N.O. demographics at Wikipedia

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. I Think Your Math Is Incorrect

Since more of the poor were African Americans they would form a greater percentage of those left behind even if the percentages of those left behind were equal....


The way I see it folks with means got the fuck out of dodge and most of those without means didn't...

[tx_dem41]

36. Most of the poor white population lives in east N.O. and St. Bernard..

Parish. These areas aren't easily accessible by the media and aren't being shown.

[Tomee450]

49. I'm with you, fed up.

Why is it so hard for some to admit the truth? There is real racism in this country and everyone knows it. Look at the portrayal of the looters. It's as if whites could not be looters, just blacks. I don't believe for one moment that only blacks were looting or involved in violence. Would they have ever stopped bringing in supplies to a city of white people simply because they thought they were being shot at? They left people to die from hunger and thirst, to live in utter filth for days. No way would that ever have happened to a mostly white population. Furthermore, those in power in this country are from the south or Midwest. Anyone really believe that Dennis Hastert, Tom Delay care anything about black people? I think not. They could have brought Congress back earlier, but declined to do so.

[sniffa]

here here

:thumbsup:

[noiretextatique]

100. i'll second that

:thumbsup:

[ProdigalJunkMail]

20. class n/t

[Hello_Kitty]

22. Race

Simply because the "looting and raping" garbage would not have worked to excuse treating whites, even poor ones, like that.

[Ioo]

25. CLASS

[MemphisTiger]

26. class

[Skittles]

27. both

it's class in the sense bush inc doesn't give a damn about poor people, but racism that has created a lot of poor people and keeps them in poverty

[Dora]

28. Class

[ultraist]

30. It's not one or the other, but race played the biggest role

Race and class are strongly linked. Three times as many Blacks are in poverty (24%), as whites (8%).

Was it mere coincidence that the large majority of those left behind to die were Black? That's a hard pill to swallow. Rarely, when race is involved, is it a coincidence. Racism is deeply imbedded in the American psyche. Our institutions are riddled with systemic racism.

Why would this incident be free of racism? Did Bush et al have a moment of enlightenment in dealing with Katrina victims?

[BootinUp]

31. They are not mutually exclusive.

[In Truth We Trust]

32. The powerless which is BOTH

[BootinUp]

33. Good answer.

[Greyhound]

34. intertwined, but leaning race. n/t

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

35. Another question? How did a certain race become the lower class?

[kick-ass-bob]

39. That's not hard to answer.

Whitey had a head start, since they owned the other.
Then, you keep your foot on their throat, and it's really hard to get up.

[sniffa]

41. by your answer then it shouLdn't be cLass

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

43. No..by his answer it is not the " either or " equation your poll suggests

[kick-ass-bob]

44. well, my reasoning for class as my answer is complicated.

I think the origin for racism IS classism. I think the "higher class" used racism to hide behind and extend to people (poor whites) to get them on their side without them realizing that they were not actually on the same side.

Then racism grew outside of classism, into what it is today.

Does that make sense?

I am just going back farther in time than you are.

[Greyhound]

46. If racism is based on slavery, then it was/is more classism.

The upper classes sold the lower classes into slavery.

[nini]

65. exactly....

seems obvious to me..


:shrug:

[porphyrian]

37. Yes.

Especially in the South, the two are impossible to separate.

[meganmonkey]

38. Both, but more race than class

I would say...

[Beam Me Up]

42. I'd agree with that. First they take the poor predominantly black--

then they go after the liberals who are white and poor and mostly young

then they'll go after the ones that only drive Volvos.

You wait and see.

[Catherine Vincent]

45. both

[jpgray]

47. Lack of response was class. The not caring has more to do with race

And since race is inextricably tied up with class, it's impossible to say it's one or the other in isolation. Anyone who says the events that have transpired are all due to race or all due to class is a dumbass.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

48. Race. Blacks are America's permanent underclass.

For most Blacks, there is no way out. America tried to remove over 200 years of barbaric history by implementing the Civil Rights act in 1968. Now, we are shocked that in less than 40 years Blacks haven't risen to the lofty heights of middle class white America complete with the same attitudes and values.

Though there is certainly class discrimination that applies to whites and other minorities, it pales in the ongoing racism that infects this country and relegates African-Americans to a permanent second class status.

To fully understand this (as much as a white person can) one must study the history of slavery, jim crow, and how that has affected the culture that white America knowingly destroyed and replaced with the paternalism that still exists today.

I came from a (very) poor white background. Homeless at times, hungry even more of the time. Yet, the color of my skin gave me access to doors that are still not open to Blacks. Jobs, an education, safety, societal support, the freedom to not be considered less or a criminal because of the tint of my complection.

Despite the tokens displayed, this is still a society controlled by and supportive of the well-being of white males.

[RageFist]

56. Does racism exist? Of Course. Is it permanent? I should say not...

I would hope that people here on DU can be realistic about race-relations in this country. While there are huge cultural problems in terms of racism, I don't see it as permanent on the scale of today. Of course, it will probably never REALLy go away, but I know I'm going to raise MY kids (as a white man) to judge on an individual basis. If a person is an asshole and black, he's just an asshole, race is independent...If a person is an asshole and white, he also is just an asshole who happens to be white (obviously, this goes for any race). I would even go so far as to say that it is possible, while not probable (maybe not anywhere close to probable), it is still possible. Optimism does not need to be forsaken on the left, we just need to couple it with a dose of realism, too. :) (Therein lies the key, repugs)

[Butterflies]

50. both

[enigmatic]

51. Both

[rug]

52. class

[QC]

53. They intersect and interact in complex ways.

Complex events seldom have only one cause. It's not necessarily one or the other here, and discussions that assume everything is always and only race or always and only class are pointless.

[RageFist]

77. I would argue that it is a class problem and that race ties into that

because the black man has been HORRIBLY oppressed throughout history (ask how many repugs know about dynamite being dropped from planes on black neighborhoods by whites in the early 1900s). People who are horribly poor often pass that on to their children (reasons vary obviously).

I am going to speculate a little bit here...I would argue that because of such oppression historically that the black man in America IS more likely to be poor, and poverty is why NO citizens are twice as likely to not own a car, hence the "refugees"...racism in my opinion has facilitated the poverty of the black race...but poverty is where the buck stops, if we want to blame something.


As a white man, I see it as my duty to do everything I can to oppose racism (this starts on the level of not approving of racist jokes when they are told in my presence).

P.S. I have a confession-I used to be horribly racist (and republican, too I might add)..two things changed this: My sister (true Christian, abhorred my racist jokes) and sociology in school.

[Pobeka]

54. Class. Poor folks can't contribute much to campaigns.

Piss off some rich folks and they do more damage to your political future.

[jmm]

55. race

Black people loot
Poor white people find
Rich white people commandeer

[RageFist]

57. Class

[Deja Q]

58. Class. Only an idiot would say 'race'.

[DURHAM D]

82. HypnoToad - your response shows you have no "class" ...

[sabra]

59. sadly both :-(

[ArkDem]

60. fArt

[H2O Man]

61. class = race n/t

[sniffa]

64. gee, what race are you?

[H2O Man]

71. I doubt you could guess.

It doesn't matter what "race" I am. However, when one considers that blacks have the highest infant mortality rate, and the lowest life expectancy rates, then I would venture that one could safely conclude that class is often determined by race.

[sniffa]

78. i didn't know it was possibLe to get out of being bLack

as it is possibLe (hard, but possibLe) to get out of poverty.

michaeL jackson doesn't count.

[H2O Man]

79. Right.

You don't know.

[nini]

62. Both

though either alone is bad enough

[ulysses]

63. class.

Racism is certainly alive and well in America, but at the end of the day - god bless the child who has his own.

[KC_25]

66. class

[WI_DEM]

67. class

poor whites and poor blacks have been affected.

[LSK]

68. class

[Lilith Velkor]

69. both

[graywarrior]

70. Class.

[tgnyc]

72. same.

[sniffa]

74. saying cLass = race?

[Mutley]

73. both

[Rainscents]

76. It's both... they go hands in hands!

[TexasBushwhacker]

80. Race

I don't see people getting the heebie geebies when large groups of poor white people are assembled.

[sniffa]

81. aLso

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4677374#4685383

[Raksha]

83. Three words: Class, race and politics.

Or any combination of the above.

[NoBushSpokenHere]

89. Agree - it was all 3, Class, Race and Politics n/t

[Piperay]

84. BOTH

in this country it seems to be just about the same thing.

[KerryOn]

85. Class, Race, Neither, Both ?????

I do not understand why it seems everyone is trying to turn this into a race issue.

Don't get me wrong, race was, and is involved, but we need to separate the time line.

1) In my opinion the initial response to this terrible disaster had absolutely nothing to do with race. (Nothing.) The slow response to this disaster was clearly caused by the incompetence and stupidity of the current administration including Bush, Home Land Security, FEMA, State Government and possibly even local government. There is no way that this government sat back and said: "Well the people left in New Orleans are a bunch of underprivileged low class individuals that don't deserve any help, so maybe we will help them when we get back from vacation." And there is no way anyone will ever prove otherwise.

However, I can see that race could have had something to do with Bush cutting the budget to reinforce/modify the existing flood walls and levees. But it can not be proven.

2) Racism and class discrimination did occur, but it is my opinion that this happened after help arrived. If you have money you can be one of the first to be rescued. If you have influence or know someone with influence you can be one of the first to be rescued. And if you are anything else than you can simply wait until they get to you. There are many clear examples of this happening.

I get very disturbed when I see people trying to blame the entire response on Racism. At times I almost feel like I'm on the wrong message board.

[sniffa]

86. i agree that..

sometimes i feeL Like i'm on the wrong messageboard.

[TexasBushwhacker]

92. I hear this a lot ...

"I do not understand why it seems everyone is trying to turn this into a race issue."

I'm white, and I've probably been guilty of saying it or thinking it myself. But you know, no white person, not even a desperately poor one, has ever been arrested for "driving while black". I don't recall any orders to "shoot to kill" any looters in Florida after the hurricanes there.

I've finally admitted that as a white person, there will be times when things happen where race is an issue and I may not initially get it. However, I wouldn't be so bold as to say that I KNOW that race wasn't an issue.

"There is no way that this government sat back and said: "Well the people left in New Orleans are a bunch of underprivileged low class individuals that don't deserve any help, so maybe we will help them when we get back from vacation." And there is no way anyone will ever prove otherwise."

Uh, you ever heard the expression "actions speak louder than words"?

[KerryOn]

93. Well...

I never said: "I KNOW that race wasn't an issue."

It was and is an issue, but in my opinion it happened after help arrived.

I clearly said that in my opinion, racism had nothing to do with the slow initial response. Lets face it our government is run by a bunch of unqualified incompetent clowns like the head of FEMA "Brown". Hell Bush will probably even give him a metal when this is over.

When people blame the slow response on racism the repugs will find a way to spin it to death. The main issue is to show this country how incompetent this administration is. If it takes three or four frigging days to deliver a bottle of water, then something is wrong, and it ain't racism. There are plenty of white folks in Mississippi, and Alabama that are still waiting for their bottle of water, but I'm sure many here will blame that on class.

On Edit:
Was anyone in Florida firing guns at the rescue workers?

(Just my two cents.)

[blondeatlast]

87. Yes. nt

[Taxloss]

88. Class.

[Lori Price CLG]

90. Both plus Halliburton. n/t

[orpupilofnature57]

98. Halliburton = Fascism

[LiveWire]

91. To quote the movie "Bullworth"...

Black people have more in common with white people than they do with rich people.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

94. Race: 70%, Class: 30%

n/t

[noiretextatique]

95. both and, not either

a better question is:

how in the fuck could anyone NOT see this (the katrina response fiasco) as at least partly about race?

[tomg]

96. The two are so inextricably linked that I

don't see how one can say it is a clear either/or. Do I feel that racism played a major part in the ( lack of) response - or at least the way the(lack of) response played out in the media - absolutely. Do I think that had the majority of victims been poor and white as opposed to poor and black, they would still have been abandoned - absolutely. The media spin would have been differently handled.
Actually, it is a very complex question and one that, in all fairness, can't really be answered in one word or the other. What I think we have to recognize is that, particularly with the recent SCOTUS decision regarding the Norwalk, CT. property case, we are about to see a very different New Orleans, one that is largely devoid of the poor, regardless of race.

[orpupilofnature57]

97. Class, money talks, Poor folk walk,

[SeattleGirl]

99. Both