I 'm so sick of hearing "It's economics, not race" I call bullshi########

[billbuckhead]

I know a lot of Republicans and as far as the majority of them are concerned, any dead white poor people in this catastrophe are just collateral damage.

[neuvocat]

1. Its the economics of race.

[NYC]

5. They are interrelated.

I agree with Neuvocat that it is the economics of race.

[Solly Mack]

29. precisely

[TahitiNut]

54. Yep. Merely ask: "Who benefits the most from racism?"

If someone tries to answer in terms of race, they're a victim of the racism plague, not an answerer. Why? Because racism is a no-win proposition. The wealthy benefit, no matter what their ethnicity, when they EXPLOIT the divisions racism inflames. From "white flight" to "union busting," the wealthy collect.

It's the anthrax in our body politic. The people who 'weaponize' it are using it as a WMD in the class war -- which has been going on for centuries.

[laureloak]

55. Exactly. Great post. Everyone please read and think about

this post.

<I have been searching for the words to make that point, and you have done it so well. >

[Coventina]

2. Black bodies lay rotting on the streets of New Orleans.....

Yet they try to say it's not about race....please......
:eyes:

Yes, it is also about class, but denying the racial angle is just wilfull blindness.

[laureloak]

3. I firmly believe it's poverty. Sorry, billbuckhead.

[ultraist]

8. If you think it's just poverty, you lack an understanding of poverty

It is NOT possible to honestly discuss poverty without discussing race.

Do you think it's mere coincidence that the large majority of those dead are Black?

[laureloak]

16. I don't lack an understanding of poverty. I know it all too well.

I grew up in extreme poverty and I'm White.

[jeffrey_X]

35. I assume you have elevated your status in society?

If so, congratuations.

But the color of your skin was never an issue. Same can't be said for others in this great country of ours.

[TwilightZone]

19. Sorry, but I disagree.

With all due respect, I think it is you that lacks an understanding of poverty. Race and poverty are often unrelated.

I grew up in a town that was nearly 100% white and there was a lot of poverty.

There are hundreds of towns just like it all over the Midwest.

How exactly are you going to equate poverty and race in those situations?

[Leeny]

12. They are the same thing

Read Johnathon Kozol's "Amazing Grace". Then get back to me.

[laureloak]

18. No they are not. I know that for a fact, first hand.

[Leeny]

24. How so?

Maybe I'm wrong. Tell me. I'm not being sarcastic, I'm open to hearing how they are not related. Just wonder how you come to that conclusion.

[barb162]

27. post 16 has the answer

[Leeny]

30. Thanks.

I hope I didn't come across as insensitive. And I do understand that poverty comes in all colors. But I still think that the majority of people in poverty, in this country and in the rest of the world, are people of color.

I don't think Bush and his cronies could EVER COMPREHEND what life is like for people who live below the poverty line. But someone who's on FEMA's payroll should have understood that when giving the evacuation order they needed to plan for the people who could not get the hell out. Makes me so f---ing mad.

[barb162]

37. I sort of agree with you.

But then again there are a lot of white poor in eastern Europe and Russia and in this country.

As to the Katrina evacuation, I look at the hurricanes that hit Florida last year and you know there were a hell of a lot of people who just won't leave their houses. I remember seeing people living right on the coast in TRAILERS and they wouldn't leave. Usually the line was "I lived through Hurricane______." And then at great expense and danger you've got rescue people endangering themselves trying to find these people.


It seems that in this country we allow people to live on sand bars and right up on the beaches where we know catastrophic damage can occur and does occur. And we are not getting with it that this shouldn't be done. If I were running things and had the power, I would not allow anyone to build privately on the coasts except for about 2 miles in. Everything becomes national seashore two miles from the beach. Let the sandbars and wetlands reform and it will protect the coasts.

You would also think it would be LAW everywhere hurricanes are common that there would be shelters built to withstand cat 5 storms. All of the shelters should be stocked with plenty of food and water. ANy builder that wanted to build in that area would have to contribute to the shelters and infrastructure.

[Leeny]

47. Real Planning

If they knew that there were precincts or neighborhoods in their district where families didn't own cars, didn't have money to buy bus, plane, train tickets, didn't have any resources to get out. Hell, they might not even have been tuned in by TV or radio to really know how bad it might be. They should have had a plan to evacuate those people. Don't just say "get out" and "good luck" because some people couldn't on their own.

Oh yeah, send them to the Convention Center and then don't provide for them. That was the plan.

Sickens me.

[laureloak]

48. NO used the same evacuation methods that are in place

throughout the country. Here in NC the hospitals AREN'T emptied, etc., etc. and we are frequently threatened with Cat 4 & Cat 5 storms.

The FLOOD was the problem and with communication knocked out I don't see how it would have been possible to execute an evacuation using local resources, such as the school buses that FR keeps talking about. It could only have been done by the armed forces, IMO.

[Leeny]

66. I meant BEFORE the storm hit

You're right, once the flooding happened they couldn't execute a plan. I was talking about evacuating BEFORE the storm hit. I remember seeing cars on the highway getting out before the storm. There could have been busses carrying those people who couldn't get out on their own.

.....

just heard we have families coming to our area. Am putting together money, clothes, toys, whatever I can get my hands on to help them settle in.

[hfojvt]

49. certainly in the rest of the world

since the USA is only 5% of the world's population, and maybe 20% of the world's population is white. But statistically, as I posted a few days ago, 70% of the poor in this country are white.

[laureloak]

50. "70% of the poor in this country are white."

Is that really true?

[hfojvt]

56. according to the census bureau

table 679 of the 2001 Statistical Abstract of the US

year***poor***white***%***white rate***black rate
1970**25,420*17,484**69****9.9*********33.5
1980**29,272*19,699**67***10.2*********32.5
1990**33,585*22,326**66***10.7*********31.9
1999**32,358*21,922**68***9.8**********23.6

Of course, there are problems with a purely monetary income definition of poverty. For example a person aged 66 who makes 7800 in retirement income is considered poor even if he lives in a house that's paid for, has money in the bank and gets health insurance through medicare. Whereas a person making minimum wage (of which there are about two million) with no health insurance and paying rent would not be considered poor. And there are many other issues, but those are the basic numbers.

[laureloak]

58. Do you know what annual income is that based on? n/t

[hfojvt]

60. are you talking about the dividing line

between poor and non-poor? It is different for family size and also for over 65, and it changes every year. And table 681, which shows that, only goes back to 1980. Or are you asking how "income" is measured? Does it include food stamps and other government transfers (I would hope so, but it does not say on the pages I am looking at).
The lines for 1999
1 person under 65 - 8,667
1 person over 65 - 7,990
2 people under 65 - 11,214
2 people over 65 - 10,075
3 people - 13,290
4 people - 17,029
5 people - 20,127
6 people - 22,727
7 people - 25,912
8 people - 28,967
9 or more - 34,417

[ultraist]

64. 24% of Blacks are in poverty, 8% of whites are in poverty

There are more whites here than Blacks, so yes, there are more whites in total in poverty.

US Census Bureau stats

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[laureloak]

40. If one is poor and white, they should be denied. Is that it?

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jeffrey_X]

33. It's poverty because of racist economic policies from the past...

100 years.

Is it really that hard to understand?

Go visit any major city in the US and there will be major groups of African Americans who are at the low end of the socioeconomic spectrum. This is more than just poverty. It's poverty created by racism and oppression.

[laureloak]

41. Poor is poor, regardless of skin color. So tell me,

why can't YOU be colorblind when it comes to poverty?

[JanMichael]

4. It's both, they're always interrelated. At least in America.

So saying it's not Race is bogus and saying that Class isn't there either is bogus.

I should add that in 100% (Or close) "pure" countries, like Japan or Norway, it is Class and not Race but that should be obvious.

PS: I know that there are other races in Japan and Norway but generally speaking they're both awfully homogeneous.

[laureloak]

21. They ARE NOT always interrelated. Not true, not true.

[alcibiades_mystery]

6. The simple fact is that race and class are inextricable in the USA

Every attempt to separate the two runs into every valid social statistic we've kept for a hundred years. This doesn't mean that either determines the other, but to separate them as correlates is simply invalid.

Moreover, the whole white recuperation project that has gone on under the reactionary watch of conservatism has tried to convince us that racism is something that dwells in people, that people are racist. The result: if you don't burn a cross and say "nigger," you're not contributing to a race problem. This is simply false. Racism is a system and a culture, not the sweet personal possession of specific people. Racism works through people: you perform racism, often whether you like to or not; you are never A racist - and that goes for even the most unreconstructed Klansman. It's not that people ARE racist; rather, people DO racism, in various degrees. And we've developed no shortage of "reasonable" explanations for our systemic behavior (my favorite being the ludicrous idea that if you are robbed twice by black teenagers, then you'll be scared of black teenagers afterwards as a natural defense mechanism, a sorry bit of racist apologia that has, of course, circulated for two hundred years...).

[Leeny]

11. Your example of being robbed twice

This might be naive, but your example of being robbed twice by black teenagers made me think of how/why some of the early rescuers might have misunderstood the "gun shots" and "looters".

Perhaps with the helicopters flying overhead, people stuck in their homes fired off guns to alert the helicopters that they were there and needed help. Screaming or yelling out wouldn't work, the choppers wouldn't hear you.

And from other stories I've heard from people who finally got out, groups of men armed themselves and then went and got food and water to bring back to the Convention Center - once they figured out that no one was coming to help.

It was either that they genuinely believed in the "gun shots" and "looters" or it was a convenient excuse. Or... it was part of the plan???

:think:

[tlsmith1963]

7. It's Both

Race & class both played a huge part in this. And it has finally revealed just how much damage the "Neocon Agenda" has done to this country. When the Bush Administration finally pays, I want those Right-wing commentators like Limbaugh & O'Reilly to pay, too. They have poisoned so many minds & turned people into uncaring fascists. I used to get along with Republicans just fine, but ever since people like Limbaugh came along I haven't been able to. I am sad about this. In the past, you could disagree with someone politically without hating them. It's almost impossible to do this now. I don't know if I will ever be able to like Republicans again. Not after everything that has happened.

Tammy

[TwilightZone]

9. If a famine kills millions in central Africa, is it about race?

No, it's about poverty.

I am not denying that race is an issue here, but I don't believe it to be the primary one.

I think poverty and sheer incompetence are bigger factors at play here.

[ultraist]

14. Oh,it just so hapened that the millions who starved to death were Black?

"Race and poverty, however, interact in ways that exacerbate the problems of each. Each is difficult to address without consideration of the other." http://www1.umn.edu/irp/publications/race.htm

[TwilightZone]

17. Yes.

If a country is 99% black and millions are killed in a famine, there's a pretty good chance that most of the famine victims will be black.

Most of the districts hit hardest by post-Katrina flooding were very predominantly black. Not 99% black as in my example, of course, but many were not far off.

As I stated, I have little doubt that race was an issue. I disagree that it is the sole or primary factor.

The Bush administration has proven to be utterly incompetent on most fronts, some of which have had little or nothing to do with race. This series of events is no different.

Sometimes an incompetent idiot is just an incompetent idiot.

[ultraist]

25. Died in a famine because the white wealthy nations refused to help

Why did the white wealthy nations refuse adequate aid? Why are they hoarding all of the resources?

Why do the populations of color, around the globe, have the highest infant mortality rates and shortest life spans? Coincidence? I think not.

[Maraya1969]

23. There are plenty of wealthy white people living in Africa.

[ultraist]

26. Yes, and who lives well and who dies en masse around the globe?

People of color.

[Outer_Limit]

39. I tend to believe that race is the primary factor

I think it is more due to the lack of concern for persons of color in this country than incompetence that lead to the slow response to aid the survivors. If the population in the superdome was majority white, I think they would have made the extra effort to ensure the response was quick and effective.

[alarimer]

52. I do too

Race is also a major factor in why a lot of communities are not allowing evacuees to live there. It was reported in Dallas that many of the tonier suburbs are hiring extra security to guard agains "looting" etc. This would not be happening if most of those affected were white. Anone who says this is not about race is in denial. Americans are basically racist and we have been glossing over that fact for years. Most people are just more subtle about it but the basic facts haven't changed.

[G_j]

45. Africa is a perfect example

in case you haven't been paying attention, the ball has been dropped again as warnings of famine have gone unheaded...AGAIN! It is a repeating story.

IMHO, Africa gets the back burner because it is black.

[Eureka]

10. They can choose

It's either

a) Race
b) Class
c) Staggering incompetance, even greater than even DU'ers would have expected.

Which one will the Freepers choose?

[LoZoccolo]

13. I think there's a big racial component...

...to how the conservatives are thinking about this, but it intersects with economics. But...I've never seen anyone on here present it the way I would. Mainly I see a lot of "if you don't think it's racism you're blind", a lot of self-righteousness and the like...people don't take the time to lay out their case in front of people who would benefit from it, or maybe to them there isn't one and they're just playing along. The argument from condescension is always a disservice to one's cause.

[markus]

15. Then explain St. Bernard Parish

http://wetbankguide.blogspot.com/2005/08/tragedy-of-st-bernard.html

[billbuckhead]

20. White victims were collateral damage in this genocide

I wonder how hard this government would try to help French people in distress?

[Tomee450]

22. Exactly

If a substantial number of blacks can be gotten rid of and a few whites are lost, well that perfectly acceptable for certain powerful people. Poor whites think the wealthy care about them. How little they know. African American domestics who worked in the south can tell you how often the words "white trash" were uttered, not by the blacks but the wealthy whites they worked for. The elites use poor whites.

[LostinVA]

31. It is also class, definitely

America is a country of have and have nots (or *'s base, the have mores). Race is of course a huge part of it. Your white Repubs only care about dead, white, poor bodies because they aren't part of the Ruling Class. The Ruling Class doesn't give a DAMN about people outside of their circle. White, black, hispanic, etc. Just your average Repub cares about white bodies...

[Javaman]

32. The Brits called it correctly...

They have called it Economic Cleansing. Which is a back door way of saying Racial Cleansing.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

34. Please refrain from pointing out the obvious. It upsets the moderates.

Just because all the bodies you see, the people wading through the slime, the people left behind, the people forced to "loot" to survive, the people being shipped all over the country AFTER the fact, happen to be black doesn't mean that race was involved. Perish the thought. If NO had been Cheyenne, Wyoming, or Salt Lake City, the Feds would have been every bit as efficient as they have been. If it were lily-white old people in nursing homes they would have been left behind just like the blacks.

Wouldn't they?

[Karenina]

38. Just imagine

tow-headed toddlers being locked up in an inappropriate facility, denied food and water for 5 days. :rofl: Yeah, RIGHT!

[ultraist]

61. BWHAHAHAHA! "It upsets the moderates."

:rofl:

It was a COINCIDENCE that nearly ALL of those who died were black.

[smartvoter]

36. They're two sides of the same coin. nt

[Mutley]

43. I think it's both... but mostly race...

for the exact reason you give, "any dead white poor people in this catastrophe are just collateral damage." Those dead white poor people didn't mean very much to the Feds, either. So, I think economics has something to do with it, but it's mostly race.

[sendero]

44. It's both....

.. Republicans have no use for poor people or black people.

And people who are so poor, and so black, well they have 2 strikes against them from the get-go.

[Jamastiene]

59. I agree with your assessment of the situation. For someone who

is both poor and black, life is twice as hard and help is twice as hard to get.

[rhett o rick]

46. The Neocons want to split the Country into factions to fight among

themselves. Like the Belgians did in Rwanda. Tribe against tribe, White against blacks, red states against blue, Christians against non-Christians. It allows them to take power. Then they have access to the money. It's all about the money.

[wellstone dem]

51. Why are we so afraid of admitting that in this country

race matters.

And yes white people are poor too.


I live and work in Minnesota and some 20 years ago I spoke with a legal aid attorney from Louisiana. He asked why people were poor here. I talked eloquently (if I say so myself) about education, disability, abuse. He listened thoughtfully and responded. "I can explain why people are poor in Louisiana in one word, racism."

[QC]

53. I'm sick of hearing people say it has to be 100% one or the other.

That's a simpleminded take on the situation. What is worse, those people tend to do an awful lot of preaching.

Complex events do not have one cause. Race and class interact and intersect in complex ways. American society is both racist and classist and has been since the very beginning.

[pitohui]

57. not all the dead are poor

my friend who died was not poor, he was a white xtian business owner

ppl are affected on every level, not just the poor

if we make it abt one special group of ppl instead of abt everyone, then we make it easy to marginalize the relief efforts

then we're fighting over whether or not "they" deserve it

instead of recognizing that there is no "they," it's "we"

[ultraist]

62. Sorry to hear about your friend.

But I disgree. Blacks were disporportionately affected and if stick our heads in the sand, remain in denial and don't talk about the racist component, we are allowing people to be oppressed and marginalized.

Discussing the truth, will not lead to more marginalization, as you suggest.

[Ms. K]

63. It's both.

Neocons have no use for those who are poor, or those of color, unless they can use minorities as window dressing on their agenda. After all, what do you think Condie is?

I've been poor. Republicans have no use for the poor. Fundie whackjobs have no real use for the poor, unless they can use them to further their, "Oh look at us, we're such WONDERFUL Christians, we're feeding the poor!" agenda. When you're poor in this country, you are treated like dirt under the feet of the populace, because obviously you're only poor because you're lazy, shiftless, useless, and you wouldn't ever be a contributor to society in the first place.

However, the only advantage I had while being poor? I wasn't African-American. I'm white. I didn't have the added label of "welfare queen" attached to me because of my race.

In Louisiana, in New Orleans, the majority of people who were left behind, herded into the SuperDome with no food, no water, no porta-potties, were poor and black. I have to wonder, why were the people who had stayed in the nearby Hyatt hotel, who were clean, well-fed, had water, were bussed out of New Orleans before the people in the SuperDome, who were starving, dehydrated, dying, sick, and so forth? Oh yeah, because they were mostly white, and well-off.

I have heard very, very coded racist language on another message board I occasionally post on. People suggesting that the "crackheads" are going to use a 2K debit card that is only available for necessity purchases, no cash back, to buy drugs, that everyone who was at the SuperDome who would be getting a 2K debit card should be drug-tested because they're the kind of people who would be crackheads, and so on. It's bigotry at its worst.

And of course, because those people who were herded into the SuperDome aren't just black, but POOR and black, OMG, it's even worse. They're all drug addicts, they're all going to buy drugs with that money and waste it, and so on and so forth. It's disgusting. Most of the people who were treated so horribly in the SuperDome were just people who work hard to try to scrape by. And most often can't even do that, because there aren't jobs available, and if there are jobs available, they're living hand to mouth.

The bigotry, the racism, the class warfare? It all just turns my stomach.

[Skittles]

65. these republcans you know

do they call themselves Christians? :puke: